What's so bad about Caribbean med schools?

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I'm looking at this page... https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2009/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1
...which has the residency postings for 2009 for St. George's. It really doesn't seem bad at all?

What are the cons of attending a Caribbean school for someone who wants to practice in the US? Does anyone know someone who went to a carib school or have personal experience of life after carib med school?

Thanks! :)

They way they list that is tricky because PGY1 are all prelim years which means those people are NOT in a residency yet. Actually most likely they didn't get in and are doing a pre-lim year to gain experience.

Look at the PGY2 and it's not as good....

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They way they list that is tricky because PGY1 are all prelim years which means those people are NOT in a residency yet. Actually most likely they didn't get in and are doing a pre-lim year to gain experience.

Look at the PGY2 and it's not as good....
PYG2 has 16.
PYG3 has 25.
PGY4 has 25+
PGY5 has 25+.
PGY6 has 1 for ortho surgery.
PGY7 has 1 for vascular surgery and 1 for thoracic surgery.
 
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PYG2 has 16.
PYG3 has 25.
PGY4 has 25+
PGY5 has 25+.
PGY6 has 1 for ortho surgery.
PGY7 has 1 for vascular surgery and 1 for thoracic surgery.

Wait so what does this mean? Did those 25 people finish their residencies? What happens to people after PGY1? lol

If I'm leaning more towards doing family medicine, do you guys think it would be okay to go to carib vs. spending a few years at SMP or something else? (obviously only if I don't get into us med school)

Thanks so much everyone =)
 
Wait what are the numbers for?
Most likely non-preliminary surgery placements. This was a response to people saying that the majority of PGY1 surgery appointments were mostly preliminary.
 
Most likely non-preliminary surgery placements. This was a response to people saying that the majority of PGY1 surgery appointments were mostly preliminary.

That means almost half of the 20/45 PGY-1 slots were prelim according to your previous post of there being RUSM residents in 25 PGY-2 and 45 PGY-1 Gen surg spots. Surg is not hyper-competitive for a US allopathic or osteopathic student it is mid-tier.
 
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i got into multiple US MD schools all ready.... so yea that is my opinion :p

So you haven't set foot in a medical school yet, much less hospitals for clinical rotations - yet you seem to think you know what you're talking about? Yes, we all know you've heard <insert anything here> :laugh: See my sig line for more info.

Stay tuned folks, in the near future I shall grace you all with what I have heard about nonscience majors success (or lack thereof) in medical school.
 
So you haven't set foot in a medical school yet, much less hospitals for clinical rotations - yet you seem to think you know what you're talking about? Yes, we all know you've heard <insert anything here> :laugh: See my sig line for more info.

Stay tuned folks, in the near future I shall grace you all with what I have heard about nonscience majors success (or lack thereof) in medical school.

Why dont you grace us with some concrete examples from your own experiences, since you seem to speak as if you know and have experienced much more.
 
Why dont you grace us with some concrete examples from your own experiences, since you seem to speak as if you know and have experienced much more.

Feel free to search my previous posts on the life of a DO resident/student. I don't speak of things I haven't experienced. What a pre-med has heard is pretty worthless when it comes to giving advice to other pre-meds.
 
Most Caribbean students need significantly higher USMLEs to qualify for a surgical position i.e. 215+ Step I scores for categorical. Go through that list and see how many are just prelims.

This. :thumbup:

this is just my personal opinion, but I believe the hierarchy is like this:

US MD > UK/Australia Med School >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SGU > US DO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of the other carrib schools

* note the so many > is there for a reason. It is to show how big of a difference it is

If your goal is to practice in the US it probably doesn't make sense to go to the UK for school. DO is a much better option.
 
Feel free to search my previous posts on the life of a DO resident/student. I don't speak of things I haven't experienced. What a pre-med has heard is pretty worthless when it comes to giving advice to other pre-meds.

I'm not saying you speak of things you have not experienced. Nor did I claim to hear anything. I wasnt trying to be rude or anything. I'm sorry if i came off like that. I'm actually not a pre-med student anymore, but rather studying for the STEP 1. I know of Non-science majors who have scored in their 90s on STEPS 1, 2CK, and 2CS, graduating from Caribbean Medical Schools and actually are doing quite well compared to the average US Medical Graduates. One of them even matched into a Neurology program in the South-Eastern region (I know - it is rare). And I also know of non-science majors who managed to get into US medical schools, but for whom medicine was simply not their fortay. My statement doesnt mean much, compared to those who have actually completed their schooling and are practicing now, perhaps one such as yourself. Though I've seen one too many people give too generalized statements in the threads without concrete examples, so it would be good to have the the examples re-stated in context so it allows for the readers to get the message more clearly. ... Rather than having to search around just to find pieces of information in different places.
 
I'm not saying you speak of things you have not experienced. Nor did I claim to hear anything. I wasnt trying to be rude or anything. I'm sorry if i came off like that. I'm actually not a pre-med student anymore, but rather studying for the STEP 1. I know of Non-science majors who have scored in their 90s on STEPS 1, 2CK, and 2CS, graduating from Caribbean Medical Schools and actually are doing quite well compared to the average US Medical Graduates. One of them even matched into a Neurology program in the South-Eastern region (I know - it is rare). And I also know of non-science majors who managed to get into US medical schools, but for whom medicine was simply not their fortay. My statement doesnt mean much, compared to those who have actually completed their schooling and are practicing now, perhaps one such as yourself. Though I've seen one too many people give too generalized statements in the threads without concrete examples, so it would be good to have the the examples re-stated in context so it allows for the readers to get the message more clearly. ... Rather than having to search around just to find pieces of information in different places.

My snide remark pointing out what I've heard about nonscience majors (not good) was in response to what the poster "nonsciencemajor" said he heard about IMGs and DOs and was therefore passing it along to everyone, and then went on to call himself "well-rounded.":laugh:

IMG, DO, or MD it matters not. Patients and staff don't respect you because of your initials or where you went to school. They will respect you if you know your stuff and treat others with respect.
 
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My snide remark pointing out what I've heard about nonscience majors (not good)....

The above poster notwithstanding, there are going to be jerks in med school and they won't be major specific. Many of the biggest A-holes I know were science majors, and fewer (since there are fewer in total) were non-sci majors. Honestly I think it has a lot less to do with major and a lot more to do with upbringing. But FWIW, you never win an argument by name-calling (on SDN or in life).
 
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They way they list that is tricky because PGY1 are all prelim years which means those people are NOT in a residency yet. Actually most likely they didn't get in and are doing a pre-lim year to gain experience.
...

Just to clarify for the other readers -- when you match, you can apply for categorical, which means you are going to be admitted into a surgery residency program for 5+ years and emerge a surgeon if you meet the requirements and don't drop out, or you can apply for "preliminary" which is a one year path, and will not qualify you to be a surgeon. People do preliminary years for two reasons: (1) it satisfies the internship year requirement for an "advanced" program, such as PM&R, some EM tracks, or one of the more competitive things (ROAD), or (2) you aren't going to get into what you want and are willing to do an extra year to prove yourself and reapply (sometimes having to redo intern year if you succeed). So as the above poster is trying to say, listing all PGY-1s together and saying they have gotten into "gen surg" is misleading. Many of these folks aren't going to be surgery at all, many will still have to reapply, and many are doing a second internship as PGY-1 just to be on that track.

Simply listing names of PGY-1 and where they are at doesn't tell you enough to know if this path is useful or awful. Most likely the majority on that list posted above will finish their PGY-1 and not ultimately end up surgeons, so they can't be described as having gotten gen surg. FWIW, gen surg is not one of the more competitive paths coming from the US, but is often a reach coming from offshore. People get it, but not always without doing a double internship to prove themselves, etc. Which again should suggest that there's still a door open if you really really want to work for it, but certainly it's a heavier door to open than coming from a US school. Hope that clarifies.
 
This. :thumbup:



If your goal is to practice in the US it probably doesn't make sense to go to the UK for school. DO is a much better option.

I would disagree. Hypothetical Situation: An American citizen goes to University of Oxford Medical Sciences. I believe he will have clear preference over any DO student. And Oxford is not the only school. There are many many many great schools like Oxford in the UK. And BTW... there admission standards for American citizens is just as competitive as it is for US MD..... I believe they are looking for a minimum 30 MCAT

UK and Australia med schools are very well respected by Residency PD's. Even more so I think than ANY DO school. And the final thing is you get an MBBS degree (essentially an MD degree) which is better than a DO degree.
 
I would disagree. Hypothetical Situation: An American citizen goes to University of Oxford Medical Sciences. I believe he will have clear preference over any DO student. And Oxford is not the only school. There are many many many great schools like Oxford in the UK. And BTW... there admission standards for American citizens is just as competitive as it is for US MD..... I believe they are looking for a minimum 30 MCAT

UK and Australia med schools are very well respected by Residency PD's. Even more so I think than ANY DO school. And the final thing is you get an MBBS degree (essentially an MD degree) which is better than a DO degree.

While certain foreign schools are well respected, the truism is that if you want to practice in the US, your best bet is to go to med school in the US. PDs are unfamiliar with many foreign programs and probably all Australian programs. Those programs tend not to focus the material to that necessary for the US boards, but more importantly, they don't have US rotations, which will be HUGE in the process of landing a US residency. PDs NEED to know your track record in the US rotations, and in away (audition) rotations, because they aren't accepting a graduate of a particular school, they are accepting an employee who can jump into the role of US hospital intern. This isn't like applying for grad school at the residency level, where it's adequate to look good on paper, it's applying for a job, first and foremost. So grades/school name doesn't mean as much as knowing you did a sub-I in surgery, or an audition rotation at that hospital, and really wowed the attendings. For that reason, many foreign options that don't have US rotations are poorly designed for landing US residencies, and it would be hard to crack into even if you were coming from an Oxford. Because while it's great to be coming from someplace known for excellence in higher learning, what the PD really cares about, what will avoid him having headaches from, is that he can throw you into an ICU during intern year and you won't need a lot of coddling and oversight during your first overnight alone in the unit. With the exception of the in-service and specialty exams each year, you won't really be regarded highly for your academic prowess during residency year, you will be held in high esteem for your patient care and procedural skills. They want someone who can function at a higher level of the very steep learning curve all interns have. And coming from a non-US system can be a disadvantage here, as can not having at least been exposed to the US system through US rotations. So that sort of kills you. No matter how much "better" a foreign path is, it's not going to be of as much "value" to a PD than a domestic program in terms of the job he is hiring you. So again, if you know you want to practice in the US, and you can get into a med school in the US, you need to go to med school in the US. Don't go with personal feelings that Oxford is "Oxford" so it must be better than Joe's No-Name Med school in the US. To a PD, if the folks who come out of Joe's have the clinical background they feel is useful to the job of intern, than the Joe's guy gets the job. Hard to accept when you are in undergrad and everything is objective like higher scores or higher rank is "better". But easy to grasp once you get out and see that someone who pulls their own weight and then some is a better "intern" than someone who is "smarter" on paper, and thus someone you'd rather have on your team.
 
While certain foreign schools are well respected, the truism is that if you want to practice in the US, your best bet is to go to med school in the US. PDs are unfamiliar with many foreign programs and probably all Australian programs. Those programs tend not to focus the material to that necessary for the US boards, but more importantly, they don't have US rotations, which will be HUGE in the process of landing a US residency. PDs NEED to know your track record in the US rotations, and in away (audition) rotations, because they aren't accepting a graduate of a particular school, they are accepting an employee who can jump into the role of US hospital intern. This isn't like applying for grad school at the residency level, where it's adequate to look good on paper, it's applying for a job, first and foremost. So grades/school name doesn't mean as much as knowing you did a sub-I in surgery, or an audition rotation at that hospital, and really wowed the attendings. For that reason, many foreign options that don't have US rotations are poorly designed for landing US residencies, and it would be hard to crack into even if you were coming from an Oxford. Because while it's great to be coming from someplace known for excellence in higher learning, what the PD really cares about, what will avoid him having headaches from, is that he can throw you into an ICU during intern year and you won't need a lot of coddling and oversight during your first overnight alone in the unit. With the exception of the in-service and specialty exams each year, you won't really be regarded highly for your academic prowess during residency year, you will be held in high esteem for your patient care and procedural skills. They want someone who can function at a higher level of the very steep learning curve all interns have. And coming from a non-US system can be a disadvantage here, as can not having at least been exposed to the US system through US rotations. So that sort of kills you. No matter how much "better" a foreign path is, it's not going to be of as much "value" to a PD than a domestic program in terms of the job he is hiring you. So again, if you know you want to practice in the US, and you can get into a med school in the US, you need to go to med school in the US. Don't go with personal feelings that Oxford is "Oxford" so it must be better than Joe's No-Name Med school in the US. To a PD, if the folks who come out of Joe's have the clinical background they feel is useful to the job of intern, than the Joe's guy gets the job. Hard to accept when you are in undergrad and everything is objective like higher scores or higher rank is "better". But easy to grasp once you get out and see that someone who pulls their own weight and then some is a better "intern" than someone who is "smarter" on paper, and thus someone you'd rather have on your team.

Yes I agree it is better to go to any LCME accredited MD program than to go to even a program like Oxford.

But I was talking about DO vs. Oxford (or the like). BTW Australia has some great med schools internationally known like University of Sydney Medical School and University of Melbourne Medical School. Now I know the clinical rotations can become a problem, but really is a clinical rotation in UK/Australia regarded as inferior to clinical rotations in the US? Their hospitals are as good as some of the top hospitals here in the US.

Now I am not being biased, as I will be attending a US MD school (though I wonder sometimes how cool it must be to go to a med school like Oxford or Cambridge or University of London, Sydney, etc...). But I have great respect for UK/Australia med schools. Actually there is even one medical school in India (can't remember the name) which is superb, and often times considered the best medical school in Asia. I think while the Carrib is not a good option, schools in UK/Australia/and this medical school in India are excellent options. The problem: they are as hard as to get into a US MD program. But if a student has all the stats (30+ MCAT, 3.5 GPA, and great EC's, etc...) but because of sheer luck cannot get into a US MD School, I believe going to a UK/Australia school is a better option than going into a DO school.

As for USMLE, I have no doubt the schools will provide enough background info to do well. After receiving the knowledge, it is all entirely based on the effort students are ready to put into studying for USMLE. There are many FMG's who come from unknown foreign medical schools, and do stellar on the boards. Sometimes even better than many AMG's.

Another benefit is that the student has a choice of practicing either in the UK/Australia or US. It truly is a win-win I believe

And I know a few attendings who are working in the US, after having done only a fellowship here (no medical school here, no residency here, I believe not even US citizens... all they did was a fellowship here). They did their medical school, residency, and fellowship in UK. They were practicing physicians there. Then they came to US, and only did a fellowship, and are practicing medicine here. And this is fairly recent. It was approved through their academic institution, where they are faculty there.

Edit: The medical school in India which is internationally known is All India Institute of Medical Sciences (AIIMS)
 
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Yes I agree it is better to go to any LCME accredited MD program than to go to even a program like Oxford.

But I was talking about DO vs. Oxford (or the like). ...

Osteopathy has made much greater inroads into allo residencies than you are giving them credit. These days, IMHO most PDs would have an easier time to take a DO from a local program he knows, who had completed US rotations, over someone from a well regarded foreign program. If you try to expand that the Australian programs, which no PDs have any familiarity with here, then it's laughable. DOs still trail far behind US allo for allo residencies/specialties, but I still think you'd be doing yourself a disservice going abroad over DO if practicing in the US was your goal. Wait a few years and when you end up in residency, you will see who you are working with/for, and realize that certain paths are going to be better represented than you seem to think at this juncture, regardless of where you ultimately go.
 
Osteopathy has made much greater inroads into allo residencies than you are giving them credit. These days, IMHO most PDs would have an easier time to take a DO from a local program he knows, who had completed US rotations, over someone from a well regarded foreign program. If you try to expand that the Australian programs, which no PDs have any familiarity with here, then it's laughable. DOs still trail far behind US allo for allo residencies/specialties, but I still think you'd be doing yourself a disservice going abroad over DO if practicing in the US was your goal. Wait a few years and when you end up in residency, you will see who you are working with/for, and realize that certain paths are going to be better represented than you seem to think at this juncture, regardless of where you ultimately go.

okay lets assume we take out all the australian med schools from consideration (though their admission standards as just as tough)... and just have Oxford or Cambridge vs. DO. Which one do you think would be better in the eyes of a PD? I simply cannot see a PD ignoring the fact an US Citizen applicant has come from oxford or cambridge....
 
...a better option than going into a DO school.



All I've heard so far is "NSmajor MD is better than NSmajor DO" without any sort of opinion as to why you would think so. Give me a reason beyond admission stats. Frankly, sir, your comments are insulting to me. Please tell me why you (the MD) will be a better doc than me (the DO).
 
but really is a clinical rotation in UK/Australia regarded as inferior to clinical rotations in the US? Their hospitals are as good as some of the top hospitals here in the US.

You are not listening to what Law2Doc is telling you. Most SDN pre-meds have a classic way of thinking: focusing on reputation and prestige (on paper). This is not what PDs focus on when selecting a candidate for their residency. Generally speaking, the average PD will take a DO/IMG/alien from mars student who rotated with them and impressed vs. someone who has only rotated in the UK and Australia with the same board scores. There are exceptions to everything I'm sure, but they want to see you work. Residency applicant selection doesn't go by what the PD has heard as on SDN, but rather what they see with their own two eyes. Additionally, from what I've heard from UK students I rotated with (take it with a grain of salt), the duties of a clinical student in the UK is different than in the US. But this is the purpose of audition rotations during 4th year. Go to www.usmleforum.com and you'll see all the FMGs make a big deal about USCE (U.S. Clinical Experience). In fact on a lot of residency programs' webpages, they say USCE is required for matching with them. There's a lot you don't know about the process that awaits you 4 years from now.
 
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All I've heard so far is "NSmajor MD is better than NSmajor DO" without any sort of opinion as to why you would think so. Give me a reason beyond admission stats. Frankly, sir, your comments are insulting to me. Please tell me why you (the MD) will be a better doc than me (the DO).

Agreed +1

He just wants to hate on someone to make himself feel better. NSmajor, if karma works, I see many of your attendings during your rotations being DOs.

Also NSmajor, you do realize DOs have a choice of their own residencies that no MDs nor FMGs can apply to?
 
You are not listening to what Law2Doc is telling you. Most SDN pre-meds have a classic way of thinking: focusing on reputation and prestige (on paper). This is not what PDs focus on when selecting a candidate for their residency. Generally speaking, the average PD will take a DO/IMG/alien from mars student who rotated with them and impressed vs. someone who has only rotated in the UK and Australia with the same board scores. There are exceptions to everything I'm sure, but they want to see you work. Residency applicant selection doesn't go by what the PD has heard as on SDN, but rather what they see with their own two eyes. Additionally, from what I've heard from UK students I rotated with (take it with a grain of salt), the duties of a clinical student in the UK is different than in the US. But this is the purpose of audition rotations during 4th year. Go to www.usmleforum.com and you'll see all the FMGs make a big deal about USCE (U.S. Clinical Experience). In fact on a lot of residency programs' webpages, they say USCE is required for matching with them. There's a lot you don't know about the process that awaits you 4 years from now.

Exactly. A PD is like a boss in any business. His headaches only go away if his hires can do the work without issues. He doesn't care so much where you went to med school as much as that you can do the work, without whining about it or causing trouble, so he doesn't have to hear about it or put out any fires. The folks who meet this criteria tend to be folks who have proven themselves on away rotations, folks who have gotten glowing evaluations on US core rotations, etc. Foreign students tend to lack these, so it's a huge hurdle for them in coming to the US. Once you pass that threshold, then sure, he'd like someone with good board scores too so he knows you have the ability to pass the in-service and specialty exams, and someone with solid research to add to the prestige of the program, etc, etc. But the single most important thing to a PD is that the folks he recruits can get integrated into the program and culture and do the work and are able to be thrown into the fray without needing a lot of coddling and hand-holding after the first couple of weeks. It's a steep learning curve and folks have to work hard and do a lot of things badly at the start until they sort of know what's going on. The further from the US system you are coming from, the harder it is to get things right at the beginning (ie the further down the learning curve you start at), and this can be a bigger pain than most PDs want to handle. So no, he's not going to jump at the Oxford of Cambridge name, because he's not going to have less of a headache if a person of better pedigree screws up. He's going to pick someone who did a solid month proving themselves to him and the faculty on an "audition" rotation -- someone who his faculty asserts in their letters can handle the job based on US hospital rotations. The folks who do well and who do poorly in residency tend to get reps early on in the year, and where they start out is often reflected based on the hospital experience they had in med school, not the school's name. So a mediocre med school affiliated with a very understaffed hospital where med schools had to learn to do a lot, fast, probably generates grads PDs want more than someplace with a world reknown name. That's just the way it is -- while there's an academic component, to the PD first and foremost he's hiring for a job.
 
PYG2 has 16.
PYG3 has 25.
PGY4 has 25+
PGY5 has 25+.
PGY6 has 1 for ortho surgery.
PGY7 has 1 for vascular surgery and 1 for thoracic surgery.

Even in the PGY2 and 3 years, some of those people could be on a non-designated track (double intern year, some programs will offer 2nd/3rd year prelim spots).

Here is another resource that shows the difficulty of matching as an IMG in surgery:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

Overall less than 1/3 of international applicants (218/730) matched. Even with a board score of >250 your odds as an IMG are less than 50%
 
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