What's the point of going to an ivy/expensive D-School?

[LatPterygoid]

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There is no point!

Going to a big name school does not make it easier to specialize. This myth will never die. It is called self-selection. If you are not smart enough to understand that concept, you are probably not smart enough to specialize.

The only reason to go to a name school is if you actually really like the school and finances are not an issue. When choosing a dentist, patients do not care about the big names. THEY DO NOT CARE! I don't know how to make this any clearer. They go off recommendations or location. Even if they know where you went, I bet 95% would be more impressed with USC and NYU over UCSF or Penn.

I think Harvard is perhaps an exception, and I think it is the only school that has legit name dropping appeal. I would have absorbed more debt to go there.

If one of you is turning down your state school for someplace like Tufts or Penn, I think you are making a foolish mistake, and I bet most dentists would agree.

Can you explain to me why so many more students from Penn specialize over UW and Stony Brook? These 2 schools have comparable or better students.

 

[harrygt]

There is no point!

Going to a big name school does not make it easier to specialize. This myth will never die. It is called self-selection. If you are not smart enough to understand that concept, you are probably not smart enough to specialize.

The only reason to go to a name school is if you actually really like the school and finances are not an issue. When choosing a dentist, patients do not care about the big names. THEY DO NOT CARE! I don't know how to make this any clearer. They go off recommendations or location. Even if they know where you went, I bet 95% would be more impressed with USC and NYU over UCSF or Penn.

I think Harvard is perhaps an exception, and I think it is the only school that has legit name dropping appeal. I would have absorbed more debt to go there.

If one of you is turning down your state school for someplace like Tufts or Penn, I think you are making a foolish mistake, and I bet most dentists would agree.

This post says it all.👍 More people specialize at Penn, UW, and Columbia, because the better students [mostly who had the better stats] went there. It becomes like a self-fulfilling prophecy. People want to go to the name schools; those that are more competitive get in the name schools, they are USUALLY the ones that do better in dental school and get in specialty programs, and then the school gets the credit and the reputation, attracting other students who think they will get the ticket to a specialty program by attending the name schools.
IMO, no matter which school you go, you can always achieve most of your goals [unless you want to become the president of the U.S].

 

[armorshell]

Can you explain to me why so many more students from Penn specialize over UW and Stony Brook? These 2 schools have comparable or better students.

Because you're falsely assuming every dental student wants to specialize.

 

[LatPterygoid]

Because you're falsely assuming every dental student wants to specialize.

It's very hard for me to guage how many people want to specialize at each school, Penn, Stony or otherwise. Most students at my interviews seemed to want to specialize or give it a strong consideration. They were just waiting to see if they like it or have a chance of getting it. Of these students that indicated strongly they wanted to specialize, they simply ended up at schools all over the country. The ones that got into Penn or Columbia pretty much went there. Otherwise, they ended up at various state schools. Those that ended up at less popular state schools and wanted to specialize, didn't get into those "specialty" schools or also had lower numbers.

Some guy Katalyst recently made a post about turning down UCSF for LSU because LSU was cheaper. I looked up his predent, and he'd indicated that he was rejected by UCSF last year, and LSU was the only school he'd gotten into. I acknowledge that there's a certain level of shame about being rejected by the top schools or top programs, so we adjust our answers accordingly. For those that end up doing general practice, they either wanted to do general dentistry, or were forced to "have always wanted to do general dentistry" because they couldn't get in otherwise. Answers change depending on the situation.

 

[DrReo]

It's very hard for me to guage how many people want to specialize at each school, Penn, Stony or otherwise. Most students at my interviews seemed to want to specialize or give it a strong consideration. They were just waiting to see if they like it or have a chance of getting it. Of these students that indicated strongly they wanted to specialize, they simply ended up at schools all over the country. The ones that got into Penn or Columbia pretty much went there. Otherwise, they ended up at various state schools. Those that ended up at less popular state schools and wanted to specialize, didn't get into those "specialty" schools or also had lower numbers.

Some guy Katalyst recently made a post about turning down UCSF for LSU because LSU was cheaper. I looked up his predent, and he'd indicated that he was rejected by UCSF last year, and LSU was the only school he'd gotten into. I acknowledge that there's a certain level of shame about being rejected by the top schools or top programs, so we adjust our answers accordingly. For those that end up doing general practice, they either wanted to do general dentistry, or were forced to "have always wanted to do general dentistry" because they couldn't get in otherwise. Answers change depending on the situation.

If you want to specialize, you will. Regardless of your choice of school. You will achieve the marks needed for that specific speciality. I can go to UPenn, UF, or Creighton and if I wanted to specialize, I would.

Plus people assume some schools are "Speciality Friendly"... How can this be? The choice of specializing depends on the interest of each incoming class. As a result, it'll very every year.

If you want to spend more money for the Ego boost of the name, go for it. The experience that you might attain, whether it's the city life, research, etc. However, in the end, we'll all be at the same point earning a DDS or DMD with just different financial obligation and the same opportunity to specialize (depending on your success and work ethic at your chosen school).

 

[dentstd]

If you want to spend more money for the Ego boost of the name, go for it.

On average, the "ego boost" schools cost the same or less, compared to comparable private institutions. Penn effectively costs the same as Case, ASDOH, Tufts, BU,...etc. They all cost about 75k/yr. Columbia costs about 8k less than all those. Harvard is a steal at roughly below 60k.

 

[makushin]

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[makushin]

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[LatPterygoid]

Do you have some numbers to back this up?

Why would a question need numbers to back up? It's a question.

 

[bcdds09]

Can you explain to me why so many more students from Penn specialize over UW and Stony Brook? These 2 schools have comparable or better students.

In regards to UW, I believe they make a strong effort to accept students who really want to open general practice. It's obvious in the way they interview their students. One of their main goals is to increase prevention and dental access to underserved populations.

So I really don't think that going to Penn would necessarily have an advantage when applying to specialty programs, but rather there are more applicants that applied from Penn over a school like UW.

Still just a pre-dent though, so who knows 🙄

 

[dentstd]

The real discussion is whether it is worth it to attend a "ego boost" school over a school where you can obtain instate tuition. I know at my state school the savings would be $100-$150k. You can rationalize it all you want, and I know you all think you will be rich one day, but that is a tremendous amount of money for what seems to be very little tangible benefit except for cocktail party discussions.

This is a topic of discussion for a limited few, those that were accepted to top schools alongside their state school. The majority of people were not given the liberty of a choice to attend these ego boost schools, and the majority of the criticism come from these same students.

 

[DrReo]

This is a topic of discussion for a limited few, those that were accepted to top schools alongside their state school. The majority of people were not given the liberty of a choice to attend these ego boost schools, and the majority of the criticism come from these same students.

How about for undergraduate? Although it is drastically different, is it worth attending a 45k dollar school your or state school that runs 15k a year?

I'm sure many of us, including myself, had this opportunity of choice.

In short, whether you chose the expensive ugrad school or the cheap state school, it doesn't really matter because you have a B.S or B.A to get you to the next step, dental school. Also, in most cases, you can do research, be involved, with a majority of the schools. If you cannot do research at your small school, you can do a summer research program.

 

[makushin]

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[DRHOYA]

If someone had the stats for Penn or Columbia, and ended up attending a school like Case or BU on loans, that person needs to get their head examined.

I don't just accept everything on SDN as truth. I'm curious about the validity of your statement. Obviously you have seen numbers about students specializing from these schools, so why don't you share them with us.

Hmm. I think you may have tied yourself in a knot with your two statements?? (by stats, you mean high #'s?. True, but there are also many aspects to an application......every school in the country has students with high #'s) Maybe you should read the bold sections in order.

Btw, I also agree with what Dr. Reo has been saying in his previous posts. Any dental school will have opportunities to specialize for the students who work hard to succeed at school, and want to specialize. Plus, there are many many reasons for choosing a dental school. Most importantly you must make sure the school is a good fit for you, so you can do very well.......whether that is an "ivy" (there are only 3 out of the what, 55? that use AADSAS lol..so i guess those 3 most be top🙄) or a "state" school. Somone that chooses to go to their state school or private school of their choice should not have to "feel bad" because they didn't go to one of the "ivy's". I think some people need to get off their high-horse and just go to school and become dentists and/or specialists already.... geez.

 

[dentstd]

How about for undergraduate? Although it is drastically different, is it worth attending a 45k dollar school your or state school that runs 15k a year?

I'm sure many of us, including myself, had this opportunity of choice.

In short, whether you chose the expensive ugrad school or the cheap state school, it doesn't really matter because you have a B.S or B.A to get you to the next step, dental school. Also, in most cases, you can do research, be involved, with a majority of the schools. If you cannot do research at your small school, you can do a summer research program.

The answer you expected run contrary to the multitude of research out there on college degrees and salary. Do an internet search on the topic. I've found numerous articles. Here's something that came up after spending one minute searching (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121746658635199271.html). I'm sure you can find more. I'm sure someone'll have problems with the information in it and will try to find a problem with the way the data's collected or something. Feel free to find other articles on the matter. They're everywhere.

"...Peter Cappelli, a professor of management and director of the Center for Human Resources at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. "Dartmouth kids get paid more for the same job than kids from Rutgers are [doing]," he says."

It matters less what area you get your degree in. It matters more WHERE you got your degree from. Those from the Ivy Leagues and comparable schools are highly valued in the job market, and graduates enjoy a higher starting salary and benefit from higher salary increases throughout their career.

It's hard for people outside the Ivy circle to realize, I know. Students from top schools are seen as top notch in many fields. They enjoy the perks of having more firms come to campus to recruit and all sorts of career benefits. More doors open throughout their career, and they get paid more.

It matters a bit less in dentistry, because there aren't many examples. Do a search in predents and you'll find things like ...the 19AA from MIT had little problem getting into Stony Brook his first time applying eventhou he decided to go into dentistry at the last minute, while better students often have trouble getting in their 2nd or 3rd time. The majority of students from top tier schools get in somewhere. Many enjoy the benefit of having multiple acceptances from top schools.

 

[dentstd]

I don't just accept everything on SDN as truth. I'm curious about the validity of your statement. Obviously you have seen numbers about students specializing from these schools, so why don't you share them with us.

What's more obvious is that you don't understand what you read.

 

[makushin]

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[dentstd]

You know, you are so far wrong it is hopeless. I go to dental school with students from the "ivy league", and we are all on the same level now except they have $100k debt already and I have NONE. If you actually think they have a greater earning potential because of where they spent their undergrad years you are a fool. I don't know any nice way to put it. The dentists that make the most money are the ones practicing in rural areas where nobody gives two cents where you did any of your schooling. Dentists are self-employed so all those perks you mention are meaningless.

I'm done posting here. I tried to give you pre-dents a dose of reality but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. You are like the people that bought houses in Las Vegas 5 years ago. Later.

Did you actually read the article or are you making stuff along as people on here usually do? Thank you for the dose of reality, but it's not my words. I urge you to read the article first. It lists explanations for the observation as well as limitations of the study. What's foolish is not in the ideas expressed in the studies. What's foolish is dismissing it without understanding it first. Critique it AFTER you understand what it says.

 

[makushin]

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[dentstd]

I actually read that article when it originally came out. There is no question that for most fields where you attend school has a large impact. I agree with the article to that extent. Dentistry is unique though. I don't know how much you've been around dentistry, but I've been around it a lot (before dental school) and met a lot of dentists. Very successful dentists. Maybe your experience has been different, but from what I have seen, undergrad or dental school institutions have had absolutely no correlation or bearing on any success they have experienced. Go to dentaltown, ask them what they think, I would be surprised if you had a single response in agreement with you.


I really have to get back to studying. I spend way too much time on this website.

The article explicitly stated that they left out students with advanced degrees, so yes, dentistry is excluded.

The school you go to has very little bearing on success as a clinician, but it helps a good deal when you're trying to get accepted to a dental school. Every single application cycle, there's probably less than a handful of candidates from Harvard College. It comes down to which of the 54 schools want them more.

And no, you don't need to have come from a top school to do dentistry. If you havn't realized yet, dental school's kinda easy. There is absolutely nothing difficult at all about the material. There's hardly much information to learn, either.