MD & DO when exactly does PGY-1 year start?

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Undercover_Brother

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i am graduating 2020 and will be hopefully starting my PGY-1 in 2020 as well. my friend is having a wedding late June 2020. Will i be able to attend? will there be orientation during that time or will PGY-1 have started already? i understand that every program has a different start date but what is the general timeframe

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You said it, depends on the program. I know some programs who started first week of June, second week, and third week. Pretty much everyone was already in orientation by the fourth week.
 
Welcome to having a “real” job and not having much control over your life and schedule! ;)

Will depend on the program though will likely have some sort of orientation mid to late June.
 
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You said it, depends on the program. I know some programs who started first week of June, second week, and third week. Pretty much everyone was already in orientation by the fourth week.
does orientation continue into the weekends too?
 
i am graduating 2020 and will be hopefully starting my PGY-1 in 2020 as well. my friend is having a wedding late June 2020. Will i be able to attend? will there be orientation during that time or will PGY-1 have started already? i understand that every program has a different start date but what is the general timeframe

Why doesn't s/he get married sooner?
 
i am graduating 2020 and will be hopefully starting my PGY-1 in 2020 as well. my friend is having a wedding late June 2020. Will i be able to attend? will there be orientation during that time or will PGY-1 have started already? i understand that every program has a different start date but what is the general timeframe

If you’re in the same city or driving range it shouldn’t be a problem. You probably won’t have any clinical responsibility before 7/1 and orientation is usually light and doesn’t involve weekends.

When the time comes let your program know of the dates and see what can be arranged. If it’s a reasonable program they’ll accommodate.
 
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does orientation continue into the weekends too?
Usually, but not always, no. We had PALS training on a Saturday. If you were already PALS certified, you got out of two days of orientation. But that was just when I was an intern—subsequent years, they maybe had to get sign out on Sunday night before starting Monday, but didn’t have to work the weekend.
 
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July 1st is the universal first day of PGY-1 nationwide. Orientation dates vary with most falling 1-3 weeks before the start date. These weeks include some important information, more useless filler, and time to get to know your classmates. Weekends are usually off or reserved for social events.
 
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i am graduating 2020 and will be hopefully starting my PGY-1 in 2020 as well. my friend is having a wedding late June 2020. Will i be able to attend? will there be orientation during that time or will PGY-1 have started already? i understand that every program has a different start date but what is the general timeframe

Late June, you’ll be in orientation. Be thankful, weddings are torture for everyone except the bride.
 
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Late June, you’ll be in orientation. Be thankful, weddings are torture for everyone except the bride.
doesn't the bride do most of the planning? that sounds like torture to me
 
July 1st. The program technically can’t make you show up before then because that’s what your contract says. Some places do a ridiculously long 2 week orientation and a lot of them are unpaid. You could technically refuse to participate. They likely would threaten you with forfeiting your residency spot, but it’s an empty threat. Still not a good look to start your residency. But this unpaid orientation crap is bs.

I’m just curious. Anyone know anyone who actually called their bluff and showed up July 1?

I did this for my advanced program because my intern year wouldn’t let me off until June 30. They weren’t happy I missed orientation but in the end it mattered ZERO.
 
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my pgy1 orientation was a week long (M-Fri) in late june (and paid)
 
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July 1st. The program technically can’t make you show up before then because that’s what your contract says. Some places do a ridiculously long 2 week orientation and a lot of them are unpaid. You could technically refuse to participate. They likely would threaten you with forfeiting your residency spot, but it’s an empty threat. Still not a good look to start your residency. But this unpaid orientation crap is bs.

I’m just curious. Anyone know anyone who actually called their bluff and showed up July 1?

I did this for my advanced program because my intern year wouldn’t let me off until June 30. They weren’t happy I missed orientation but in the end it mattered ZERO.

I know several programs that start before Jul 1. They have you sign a contract that says you start early.
 
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My contract included being available for orientation. My orientation was only a couple of days, but I have friends who started as early as June 15.

You’ll likely still have weekends off in June but I wouldn’t count on not having started at all yet.
 
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July 1st. The program technically can’t make you show up before then because that’s what your contract says. Some places do a ridiculously long 2 week orientation and a lot of them are unpaid. You could technically refuse to participate. They likely would threaten you with forfeiting your residency spot, but it’s an empty threat. Still not a good look to start your residency. But this unpaid orientation crap is bs.

I’m just curious. Anyone know anyone who actually called their bluff and showed up July 1?

I did this for my advanced program because my intern year wouldn’t let me off until June 30. They weren’t happy I missed orientation but in the end it mattered ZERO.

This is inaccurate information that no one should listen to. There's nothing worse than starting residency on the wrong foot. You get paid starting the first day of orientation, which is BEFORE July 1st in most cases and should be followed for all interns. July 1st, they expect you on the wards, not sitting in some room learning how to turn on the computer.

The reason it didn't matter for you is for the same reason it doesn't matter for fellowship -- because you're under contract by someone else prior to July 1st and they can't legally make you break that contract. Good luck defending yourself for being under contract to yourself if you think that'll fly for intern year.
 
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My official start date was 6/23. My program likes the new interns to have an overlapping week with the graduating seniors. Orientation started mid June. All of that was PAID.
 
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i appreciate the replies. hopefully it all works out. thanks all!
 
My classmate matched military and they start orientation the first week of June.
 
This is inaccurate information that no one should listen to. There's nothing worse than starting residency on the wrong foot. You get paid starting the first day of orientation, which is BEFORE July 1st in most cases and should be followed for all interns. July 1st, they expect you on the wards, not sitting in some room learning how to turn on the computer.

The reason it didn't matter for you is for the same reason it doesn't matter for fellowship -- because you're under contract by someone else prior to July 1st and they can't legally make you break that contract. Good luck defending yourself for being under contract to yourself if you think that'll fly for intern year.

Oh yeah? Then why didn’t I get paid for showing up 10 days before July 1 intern year?

Your contract is your contract, period. Legally they can’t do anything if you show up for the first time on July 1st PGY-1. Is it a bad look? Yes. But they can’t fire you for it. They will lie and say they will. They may hold it against you and try to find something else to fire you for, sure.
 
I know several programs that start before Jul 1. They have you sign a contract that says you start early.

I’m not sure this is legal per match rules. Would be interested in seeing if they can match somebody and legally set some arbitrary date prior to July 1. Will investigate.

If you’re not getting paid, like I wasn’t, i’d Say they can’t contract you to show up prior to July 1.
 
you get paid hourly for orientation?
 
Oh yeah? Then why didn’t I get paid for showing up 10 days before July 1 intern year?

Your contract is your contract, period. Legally they can’t do anything if you show up for the first time on July 1st PGY-1. Is it a bad look? Yes. But they can’t fire you for it. They will lie and say they will. They may hold it against you and try to find something else to fire you for, sure.

Of course they can fire you for it or put you on probation or any number of things.
 
"I can't, I'm on call that night".
This is your mantra.
 
If you didn't get paid, you should have held your program responsible.

I didn’t know any better and I don’t think anyone else did at the time either.

No we did at least 7 days of orientation without pay. During which time I was threatened in front of 100 people with “You are about to lose your residency” by the GME director, a real piece of work, for not showing up the first day with my passport for ID verification.
 
From the match agreement, section 5.1:
The listing of an applicant by a program on its certified rank order list or of a program by an applicant on the applicant's certified rank order list establishes a binding commitment to offer or to accept an appointment if a match results and to start training in good faith (i.e., with the intent to complete the program) on the date specified in the appointment contract.

So matching definitely might mean a start date prior to July 1.

Regarding paid vs unpaid orientation, it is illegal to require orientation and then not pay for it. This is mandated by the FLSA, so should be a federal rule and not subject to individual state laws. There are some "loopholes" that don't apply -- if you're not guaranteed a job and the decision to hire is based on your performance in orientation, then it can be considered part of the application process. But that's not going to apply here.

If your orientation is unpaid, you can probably sue your employer for your missed pay. Whether that's a smart idea for your career is a different issue.


It appears I am incorrect, see post later in the thread
 
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From the match agreement, section 5.1:
The listing of an applicant by a program on its certified rank order list or of a program by an applicant on the applicant's certified rank order list establishes a binding commitment to offer or to accept an appointment if a match results and to start training in good faith (i.e., with the intent to complete the program) on the date specified in the appointment contract.

So matching definitely might mean a start date prior to July 1.

Regarding paid vs unpaid orientation, it is illegal to require orientation and then not pay for it. This is mandated by the FLSA, so should be a federal rule and not subject to individual state laws. There are some "loopholes" that don't apply -- if you're not guaranteed a job and the decision to hire is based on your performance in orientation, then it can be considered part of the application process. But that's not going to apply here.

If your orientation is unpaid, you can probably sue your employer for your missed pay. Whether that's a smart idea for your career is a different issue.


What’s the worst that could happen if I go after my intern program 5 years later for owed wages during orientation + interest after I have finished my advanced residency and become board certified?

This pisses me off to no end.
 
From the match agreement, section 5.1:
The listing of an applicant by a program on its certified rank order list or of a program by an applicant on the applicant's certified rank order list establishes a binding commitment to offer or to accept an appointment if a match results and to start training in good faith (i.e., with the intent to complete the program) on the date specified in the appointment contract.

So matching definitely might mean a start date prior to July 1.

Regarding paid vs unpaid orientation, it is illegal to require orientation and then not pay for it. This is mandated by the FLSA, so should be a federal rule and not subject to individual state laws. There are some "loopholes" that don't apply -- if you're not guaranteed a job and the decision to hire is based on your performance in orientation, then it can be considered part of the application process. But that's not going to apply here.

If your orientation is unpaid, you can probably sue your employer for your missed pay. Whether that's a smart idea for your career is a different issue.

We've had this exact same discussion on this same website before, but I am not 100% sure if it's true.

My fellowship orientation was unpaid. Given I had to burn a week of my precious PGY3 vacation to go to it, I was pissed. I personally called the state DOL. They told me tough cookie - since I wasn't performing the work that I was hired to do that week, I had no recourse. That is, because I was sitting through asinine lectures on fatigue, not acting as a physician, they could legally not pay me and I had no recourse.

Now, is it possible the employee at the DOL I spoke with was wrong? Sure. But given that a significant proportion of residency programs have unpaid orientation (I know a number of friends from medical school who had them plus dozens of anecdotes on SDN) and that they have to have some kind of institutional lawyers that might call them on their crap if they're doing things that are blatantly illegal, I'm skeptical.

I will also point out the relevant AMA Policy, Resident Pay During Orientation D-310.967
  • Our AMA will advocate that all resident and fellow physicians should be compensated, and receive benefits, at a level commensurate with the pay that they will receive while in their training program, for all days spent in required orientation activities prior to the onset of their contractual responsibilities.
Presumably they wouldn't need a policy advocating that residents be compensated if in fact there weren't many residents who were not being compensated. (I pulled the original policy, which also advocated that a requirement to pay residents during orientation be added to the ACGME institutional requirements. The AMA apparently sent the ACGME a nice letter asking for that in 2007 then rescinded that clause as "completed" even though the ACGME didn't do anything about it)

As to the OP's question, programs can and do often require you to be there for several weeks prior to July 1. I personally started orientation June 17 and started actual clinical work for my intern year June 24. I had friends who were physically required to be there for an orientation June 10th. They can also make you come to town for things like an occupational health assessment that has to be done in person even a month prior - which is also insane to me.
 
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What’s the worst that could happen if I go after my intern program 5 years later for owed wages during orientation + interest after I have finished my advanced residency and become board certified?

Probably that the statute of limitations has expired, and have a nice day.

We've had this exact same discussion on this same website before, but I am not 100% sure if it's true.

I believe, after quite a bit of work, that you're correct, for a very interesting reason. Physicians are clearly "exempt" employees per the FLSA. Exempt doesn't mean that they are exempt from the law, but that they are exempt from the rules regarding minimum wage, overtime, and hours tracking that regular hourly workers are held to. The FLSA says that work orientations usually have to be paid (there are some funky exceptions, but they are not applicable here). So, I thought that resident orientation would need to be paid.

Googling "FLSA Exempt employee paid orientation" or lots of other combinations of terms didn't help -- all sites just talked about hourly employees.

But then I found this: Business | Boeing Must Pay Employees For Orientation, Judge Rules | Seattle Times Newspaper

Class action case from 1995, where a boatload of employees sued Boeing for back pay for orientation time. And they won. But, the courts decided that the employer could choose a different rate of pay for orientation if they wanted to. So Boeing paid everyone minimum wage for their orientation time -- making it a Pyrrhic victory.

But wait, it gets better. Because remember that physicians are "exempt". And hence are exempt from minimum wage laws. Thus, the courts decided that exempt employees can be "paid" for orientation at a rate of zero. In the original lawsuit, 80% of the class were exempt professionals, and got zero.

So, unless there is contradictory case law since, orientation doesn't need to be paid. Or, to be more precise, must be paid but a rate of $0/hr is acceptable.

That said, I'm not a lawyer, and free legal advice is worth what you paid for it.
 
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What’s the worst that could happen if I go after my intern program 5 years later for owed wages during orientation + interest after I have finished my advanced residency and become board certified?

This pisses me off to no end.

You should have better things to do with your attending time and money than sue your former program for a week of intern time and money.
 
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