When is the DO degree gonna merge with/switch over to MD?

[Professor Khan]

It's time. And I doubt there will be much pushback. Physicians nowadays have way bigger problems to worry about than DO vs MD (the big one being midlevels).

I'm an MD student, but I think the DO degree is just confusing for everyone.

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[hallowmann]

Oh good, one of these threads...

 

[DO2015CA]

It’s not

 

[Mad Jack]

Never will. There are rea$on$ to con$ider for the people at the top

 

[penpenclown]

When the ghost of AT Still has been exorcised.

 

[deleted480308]

It's time. And I doubt there will be much pushback. Physicians nowadays have way bigger problems to worry about than DO vs MD (the big one being midlevels).

I'm an MD student, but I think the DO degree is just confusing for everyone.

A lot of people have to willingly not be in charge any more and a lot of people have to willingly give away the prestige of something they don’t have to.......neither will happen

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

But from who will we learn about the diagnostic value of a Chapman’s point?

 

[MLNS]

I disagree with a few of my colleagues above

I think it will and in the foreseeable future

 

[2021Doctor]

Too many nonprofits that are monopolies and make big $$$$$ will not allow it, NBOME, COCA, AACOM, states that have osteopathic medical boards, etc.

 

[DO2015CA]

I disagree with a few of my colleagues above

I think it will and in the foreseeable future

It would be nice if you were right but too much money lining pockets for that to happen

 

[MLNS]

It would be nice if you were right but too much money lining pockets for that to happen

Idk. all that has to happen is the acgme only accepting graduates of lcme accredited schools *shrug*

 

[Mad Jack]

Idk. all that has to happen is the acgme only accepting graduates of lcme accredited schools *shrug*

That won't happen, there was a huge antitrust issue in the past that makes that impossible

 

[deleted769052]

The standards for accreditation are much higher for LCME schools than it is for AOA. It will never happen because it costs tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars to hire 2-3x the number of faculty (I've heard as much as 6x in one article of MD faculties vs the average DO school). DO schools get less state funding. You also have to keep in mind the caliber of DO students is much lower (I'm pursuing ONLY DO myself so this is just the reality, not bashing the profession. I know that many external factors can account for lower GPA/MCAT).

Anyways, there's a reason that a 3.2/500 can get you into a school like BCOM/KYCOM (22 avg in 2011 according to wiki ~492 today) etc. The chances of passing COMLEX with stats like that are much higher than passing Step (using PR or HBCU MD for example, first-time pass rates are 80-90% and many graduate in 5-6 years). LOTS of DO students do not take Step and many would fail if they did (your DO school might be the exception so if you're at a PCOM/KCU/CCOM you're an outlier where a higher percentage take/pass step). If all DO students were forced to take Step you'd see a 30-40% failure rate across the board, 20% at the more competitive schools, and as high as 70% at your newer/"lower tier" DO schools. If there are individuals happy with taking just COMLEX and matching rural FM then just let it be.

If DO schools suddenly became MD (and thus more coveted) it would be very difficult to attract competitive applicants who can pass Step (let's say 3.5/504 as a confident number for passing - I know MCAT doesn't correlate with Step but just look at most Step failures/non-takers and you'll see the correlation, and I can discuss the data in more detail but that's for another discussion) and in that case, you might be tempted to recruit more from OOS or bigger nearby cities, and exclude the rural kid who didn't have many opportunities (and this 3.2/500 applicant is MORE likely to serve his rural community than moving to LA/NYC). Also, competitive applicants are less inclined to pay 50-70k/year tuition to live in less desirable cities (most DO schools).

Not to mention new/mega DO schools opening up left and right, or their desire to expand their classes to ~500 students. This wouldn't fly with LCME, and there are incentives for the respective organizations to allow this to happen. Personally, I'd prefer training more DO students interested in IM/FM than giving those spots to IMGs.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Professor Khan]

The standards for maintaining accreditation is much higher for LCME schools than it is for AOA. It will never happen because it costs tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars to hire 2-3x the number of faculty (I've heard as much as 6x in one article of MD faculties vs the average DO school).

You start your post like this implying that the increased faculty at MD schools has any bearing on the education you get, when it really doesn't.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If DO schools suddenly became MD (and thus more coveted) it would be very difficult to attract competitive applicants who can pass Step

Lol no they wouldn’t. They’d get inundated with high quality apps. CNU’s first class had an MCAT average of 513 if I remember correctly. If DO schools became MD their averages would skyrocket.

I actually do see the DO pathway disappearing, but probably not for 20 years. Some people will need to literally die off first.

 

[deleted769052]

You start your post like this implying that the increased faculty at MD schools has any bearing on the education you get, when it really doesn't.

Of course, it doesn't. There was an article where (don't quote me) the dean of NYC said "90% of the faculty are just check-collectors and we would save $40m/year if we got rid of them and kept 10 good lecturers). That's not the point. The point is that there are standards which must be met to be accredited as an LCME school.

 

[Mass Effect]

Anyways, there's a reason that a 3.2/500 can get you into a school like BCOM/KYCOM (22 avg in 2011 according to wiki ~492 today) etc. The chances of passing COMLEX with stats like that are much higher than passing Step (using PR or HBCU MD for example, first-time pass rates are 80-90% and many graduate in 5-6 years). LOTS of DO students do not take Step and many would fail if they did (your DO school might be the exception so if you're at a PCOM/KCU/CCOM you're an outlier where a higher percentage take/pass step). If all DO students were forced to take Step you'd see a 30-40% failure rate across the board, 20% at the more competitive schools, and as high as 70% at your newer/"lower tier" DO schools. If there are individuals happy with taking just COMLEX and matching rural FM then just let it be

Faulty correlations are still faulty no matter the context. The best predictor of Step/COMLEX performance is medical school performance.

Agree this won't happen because of money, but years ago, I never would have imagined a combined match either. In fact, when that topic came up back when I was a pre-med, several said it won't happen because the AOA will lose money, but it happened. So who knows what will eventually happen?

 

[deleted769052]

Lol no they wouldn’t. They’d get inundated with high quality apps. CNU’s first class had an MCAT average of 513 if I remember correctly. If DO schools became MD their averages would skyrocket.

I actually do see the DO pathway disappearing, but probably not for 20 years. Some people will need to literally die off first.

You're using a California school as your example? Really? Just looking at MSAR there are a handful of lower-tier MD schools in the south with 504-507 average, and that's with much lower tuition/better location/clinical than their nearby DO counterparts.

 

[Professor Khan]

You're using a California school as your example? Really? Just looking at MSAR there are a handful of lower-tier MD schools in the south with 504-507 average, and that's with much lower tuition/better location/clinical than their nearby DO counterparts.

That's cause they don't accept out of state people

 

[deleted769052]

Faulty correlations are still faulty no matter the context. The best predictor of Step/COMLEX performance is medical school performance.

Agree this won't happen because of money, but years ago, I never would have imagined a combined match either. In fact, when that topic came up back when I was a pre-med, several said it won't happen because the AOA will lose money, but it happened. So who knows what will eventually happen?

I agree. The best predictor of Step performance is first semester of med school grades I believe. I do think the correlation of MCAT to Step is actually stronger than the 0.6 I've read about. Good test-takers will always be good test takers and someone who was able to balance their academics and get a competitive MCAT during their junior year obviously has developed the study skills required to ace Step. Compare that with a non-trad (myself as an example) removed from Orgo/Physics for a number of years, self-studying without the reinforcement of pre-req classes and if someone like that achieves a 500-505 it doesn't mean they're less intelligent or capable, and it's very likely this individual is motivated and will get a 240 (hence why I think if an individual like this "redid" premed they are actually a 512+ student, and therefore >0.6 correlation)

 

[Professor Khan]

I do think the correlation of MCAT to Step is actually stronger than the 0.6 I've read about. Good test-takers will always be good test takers and someone who was able to balance their academics and get a competitive MCAT during their junior year obviously has developed the study skills required to ace Step.

As someone who aced the SAT, aced the MCAT, and just did slightly above average on Step... I disagree. I think it's possible to do very well on the SAT/MCAT just based on your innate intelligence without having the work ethic required to do well on Step.

For me, after studying long enough the SAT/MCAT just "clicked" for me in a way that Step never did.

 

[Neuronix]

Oh good, one of these threads...

I agree. This has been discussed repeatedly. Closing.