When to dilute IV meds?

[DVMDream]

Well I work with two nurses that were physicians before they came to America. One was a family doctor in Ukraine, and one was a histologist in China. We discuss how the healthcare systems were superior in their counties opposed to the overly capitalistic system here.

See, this is why I can't take you seriously and think you're a troll. I give you a great recommendation, go ask the MDs over in their forum, get real first hand answers and you post the above.

Go get multiple opinions asking point blank how a set $150k salary for MDs would work here in the US for American trained doctors. You can get these opinions by posting in the med forums, you've posted other things over there so why is this an issue?

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[RNtoMD87]

See, this is why I can't take you seriously and think you're a troll. I give you a great recommendation, go ask the MDs over in their forum, get real first hand answers and you post the above.

Go get multiple opinions asking point blank how a set $150k salary for MDs would work here in the US for American trained doctors. You can get these opinions by posting in the med forums, you've posted other things over there so why is this an issue?

I am not a troll. I'm posting here because this is where it came up. We were speaking about the waste in human medicine, and it really got me to thinking. Also I didn't realize how little vets made until a couple weeks ago and it isn't fair. You do the same thing as an MD, just on another species.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I'm quite open to new opinions. I used to think that capitalism was a good thing, but recently I've seen some things that made me change my mind. I try to remain open minded

 

[twelvetigers]

RN to MD needs to actually do that (go do that med school thang) and then see if that salary still feels perfectly reasonable from the other side. Otherwise, it’s all poorly informed speculation. Unless, of course, you really do go make a thread in pre-allo... but I would want some popcorn first.

 

[RNtoMD87]

RN to MD needs to actually do that (go do that med school thang) and then see if that salary still feels perfectly reasonable from the other side. Otherwise, it’s all poorly informed speculation. Unless, of course, you really do go make a thread in pre-allo... but I would want some popcorn first.

That's what I'm working toward. Completing my prereqs.

And many nurses will complain that we don't get paid enough. That is completely false. I get paid more than I need to survive, and I'm the first to say it. All professions tend to feel undervalued and underpaid. (I do however sympathize with vets. That sounds extremely rough. There is no reason that you guys should have to go through 4+ years of school post bac to make less than a nurse with a 2 year diploma can make in a year).

Just like doctors, RNs shouldn't be poor, but even 45k a year would be plenty. We start off at around 60. That's a LOT of money. I'm still getting used to it. As a service member with 5 years in I made less than 30. And I still got by.

 

[flameshock]

That's what I'm working toward. Completing my prereqs.

And many nurses will complain that we don't get paid enough. That is completely false. I get paid more than I need to survive, and I'm the first to say it. All professions tend to feel undervalued and underpaid. (I do however sympathize with vets. That sounds extremely rough. There is no reason that you guys should have to go through 4+ years of school post bac to make less than a nurse with a 2 year diploma can make in a year).

This ‘people getting more money than they need to survive’ line is absurd and insulting. Didn’t you say you had GI bill for education? You have no idea what other financial constraints people are under. Some people have previous educational debt, family responsibilities, plenty of other things. Your circumstances ARE NOT EVERYONE ELSE. Coming in and drawing this bizarre line in the sand about what should and should not be with half-baked anecdotal evidence is why people are consistently saying you’re a troll.

 

[supershorty]

This ‘people getting more money than they need to survive’ line is absurd and insulting. Didn’t you say you had GI bill for education? You have no idea what other financial constraints people are under. Some people have previous educational debt, family responsibilities, plenty of other things. Your circumstances ARE NOT EVERYONE ELSE. Coming in and drawing this bizarre line in the sand about what should and should not be with half-baked anecdotal evidence is why people are consistently saying you’re a troll.

Also, if I’m going through what in my case will be at least 12 years of schooling, between undergrad, vet, and grad school, I damn well better make more than I need to SURVIVE.

RN to MD, go post that idea over in allo. Better yet, bring it up in interviews if you get some. See how that goes over.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That's what I'm working toward. Completing my prereqs.

And many nurses will complain that we don't get paid enough. That is completely false. I get paid more than I need to survive, and I'm the first to say it. All professions tend to feel undervalued and underpaid. (I do however sympathize with vets. That sounds extremely rough. There is no reason that you guys should have to go through 4+ years of school post bac to make less than a nurse with a 2 year diploma can make in a year).

Just like doctors, RNs shouldn't be poor, but even 45k a year would be plenty. We start off at around 60. That's a LOT of money. I'm still getting used to it. As a service member with 5 years in I made less than 30. And I still got by.

60k could be lot of money for, say, a single childless, healthy young person living in a low cost area. That is only a small sliver of the population.

60k for a family living in San Francisco?

60k for someone with a chronic health condition?

60k for a single parent trying to work full time and having to pay for daycare?

60k for someone with massive student loan debt?

All totally different situations.

You simply can't paint with that broad of a brush.

 

[battie]

I still think we could determine a good set amount. We can agree to disagree. If it worked in the military it will work for us all.

Extrapolating this to a country of 330+ million people in a society where the very infrastructure is built on capitalism is a hard stretch. What works for a small group of people can be disastrous for a group of people nearly 100 times its size.

Just like doctors, RNs shouldn't be poor, but even 45k a year would be plenty.

45k a year in Denver would be a struggle for the average single person, no matter the job. Not impossible, but certainly difficult. It gives basically 3k to work with a month. Rent in Denver averages 1200 per month. That's basically half your income right there. The food and such is on par with the rent cost of living too. And that's factoring in the single person having no debt.

If a vet offered me 45k to work in Denver, I'd thank him for his time and never apply there again or let a friend apply there.

 

[DVMDream]

Not to mention who the **** actually wants to make just "what they need to survive"???

No one "needs" vacations, outings to the movies, books, internet, etc, etc, but I sure as **** want to be able to enjoy life too. Have money for hobbies, traveling, reading, theme parks, and whatever else I want to do to relax and unwind.

We weren't designed to just work, make just enough to cover bills and survive.

Many of us would like to save for retirement as well, so that we aren't dying on the job at 85 years of age.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I feel like this person, despite seeming to act otherwise, has absolutely no exposure to the real world or its financial demands.

 

[DVMDream]

The other thing is the military covers health care and housing as well. So while you're in the military you don't have housing costs (unless you choose to live off base or in non military housing but then you still get a living allotment). They cover your Healthcare, not the greatest coverage but better than nothing. Then they also cover your education.

So, yeah, you probably were just fine off of "only $30k" because most of the other expenses that the rest of the world deals with, you didn't have to worry about.

 

[RNtoMD87]

We don't need to spend that much on hobbies when people can barely get by. Hobbies don't have to be expensive.

I'm just saying we need to fix this. We shouldn't be living off the backs of those who couldn't get an education because they couldn't afford it or get a loan.

 

[battie]

We don't need to spend that much on hobbies when people can barely get by. Hobbies don't have to be expensive.

The thing is, you have no right to decide on what I do with my stuff, including my money. If I want to spend $1000 next spring break to go to Disney World with some third year friends, that's 100% my decision. The fact that the $1000 can go to a homeless shelter or any other just as worthy cause is irrelevant because that's not what I want to do with that specific lump of money. Someone else (you, general you, the government, etc) don't get to make that decision because I earned the money I would be using to go.

 

[RNtoMD87]

That's how it is now, and hopefully one day we can find a better system to ensure all Americans are well taken care of.

 

[supershorty]

View attachment 235265 View attachment 235266 We don't need to spend that much on hobbies when people can barely get by. Hobbies don't have to be expensive.

I'm just saying we need to fix this. We shouldn't be living off the backs of those who couldn't get an education because they couldn't afford it or get a loan.

Why do you think you, or anyone else, gets to dictate what a person’s hobbies are and what they spend on them?

 

[battie]

That's how it is now, and hopefully one day we can find a better system to ensure all Americans are well taken care of.

But restricting someone's choice on how they legally use their own property is not one of them.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Not hobbies, income. We need to just really look at income caps. I'm not an economist so I don't know how much people need, but there does need to be some fairness. Many of my patients can't afford to comply with my discharge instructions. I find myself after work buying things for my patients in order to help them comply but it really is just a drop in the bucket.

 

[battie]

We need to just really look at income caps.

Who gets to make these decisions and what are the factors that decide that? Why do they get to make those decisions?

By forcing an income cap, you're inherently taking away my choice to earn as much money as I want however I legally choose.

 

[vetmedhead]

I feel like we should rename this thread "When to dilute the power of the bourgeoisie and seize the means of production?"

 

[Lawpy]

Currently confused on what's being discussed and why the thread is 6 pages

 

[RNtoMD87]

One way I can think of it is by using the affordable care act as a vehicle. But like I said, I've only taken basic economics, you'd need an economist and maybe some sociology experts to help figure up the fine details.

 

[vetmedhead]

Currently confused on what's being discussed and why the thread is 6 pages

We're talking about communism or something

 

[twelvetigers]

Socialism, mostly. I called it like two pages back.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yes, not communism. Socialism

 

[twelvetigers]

Yes, not communism. Socialism

It wasn’t exactly a compliment.

I’m gonna take my excess wealth and go sit over here...

 

[battie]

It wasn’t exactly a compliment.

I’m gonna take my excess wealth and go sit over here...

But no expensive hobbies.

 

[DVMDream]

That's how it is now, and hopefully one day we can find a better system to ensure all Americans are well taken care of.

Screw you.

Look at the vast majority of "low income" people, they are your drug addicts, previous criminals, etc. My sister being one of them. She made her choice, now she can lie in the bed that she created for herself.

If I work my ass off to create myself a decent life and way of living I should not be forced to help these people who sit on the arse shooting up and living off of MY hard work.

This isn't America "living off the backs of the poor". This is the people who put in minimal to no effort to do anything or contribute to society and expect hand-outs from those who bust their ass. Yeah, **** them. I am not helping them more than my tax money already does.

I've lived around these kinds of people, I know their attitudes, how they work the system, etc. I have no desire to "donate" my time/money to them.

 

[KCgophervet]

Since the thread is totally derailed, I'd like to chime in on the socialism front. I get it, I agree with some of the ideals of true socialism. I'm not thrilled with the income disparity in this country and I'd be all for reducing the gap between the highest and lowest earners. I like public service programs and am happy to pay taxes to support them.

That being said, there are way too many variables to make the US successful at it without a massive overhaul of basically everything. Healthcare, education, housing, childcare, so many things would have to be completely controlled in order to make sure that capped incomes would actually be sufficient to have a comfortable lifestyle for everyone, everywhere. I just don't see it happening. I would like us to move towards the Scandinavian approach, where education at all levels is covered by taxes as is healthcare, and a universal basic income would be even better. I honestly don't care if the "dregs of society" use my "hard earned tax dollars" to live a comfortable life, so long as I can still live a comfortable life, provide for my (fur) kids, take vacations, enjoy my hobbies, and have something in the bank for emergencies. I actually agree that there is a high point where anything above that is really unnecessary - but here I'm thinking about people who are earning $$ in the millions (billions?) of pure profit (after license fees, insurance, etc), not the MD's or other professionals who make low-mid 6 figures. I don't know where that line is, and it is hard to say how to draw that line, but honestly taxes used to be much higher for the higher income brackets and frankly I'd be okay with that making a comeback.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Screw you.

Look at the vast majority of "low income" people, they are your drug addicts, previous criminals, etc. My sister being one of them. She made her choice, now she can lie in the bed that she created for herself.

If I work my ass off to create myself a decent life and way of living I should not be forced to help these people who sit on the arse shooting up and living off of MY hard work.

This isn't America "living off the backs of the poor". This is the people who put in minimal to no effort to do anything or contribute to society and expect hand-outs from those who bust their ass. Yeah, **** them. I am not helping them more than my tax money already does.

I've lived around these kinds of people, I know their attitudes, how they work the system, etc. I have no desire to "donate" my time/money to them.

Don't you think they become addicts for a reason? They don't want to be addicts. I understand why you feel that way. I was judgemental before I took care of those so called "junkies". Working intimately with them and hearing their stories made me realize, its society that sets them up for failure.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Since the thread is totally derailed, I'd like to chime in on the socialism front. I get it, I agree with some of the ideals of true socialism. I'm not thrilled with the income disparity in this country and I'd be all for reducing the gap between the highest and lowest earners. I like public service programs and am happy to pay taxes to support them.

That being said, there are way too many variables to make the US successful at it without a massive overhaul of basically everything. Healthcare, education, housing, childcare, so many things would have to be completely controlled in order to make sure that capped incomes would actually be sufficient to have a comfortable lifestyle for everyone, everywhere. I just don't see it happening. I would like us to move towards the Scandinavian approach, where education at all levels is covered by taxes as is healthcare, and a universal basic income would be even better. I honestly don't care if the "dregs of society" use my "hard earned tax dollars" to live a comfortable life, so long as I can still live a comfortable life, provide for my (fur) kids, take vacations, enjoy my hobbies, and have something in the bank for emergencies. I actually agree that there is a high point where anything above that is really unnecessary - but here I'm thinking about people who are earning $$ in the millions (billions?) of pure profit (after license fees, insurance, etc), not the MD's or other professionals who make low-mid 6 figures. I don't know where that line is, and it is hard to say how to draw that line, but honestly taxes used to be much higher for the higher income brackets and frankly I'd be okay with that making a comeback.

I agree! It isn't simple at all! Thank you for putting into words what I was having a hard time doing so. This is a great response to think over.


Ps I'm glad you mentioned the universal basic income! I meant to mention that bit forgot!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Don't you think they become addicts for a reason? They don't want to be addicts. I understand why you feel that way. I was judgemental before I took care of those so called "junkies". Working intimately with them and hearing their stories made me realize, its society that sets them up for failure.

You just said anyone living an unhealthy lifestyle should be penalized in terms of health insurance. Now you pity them?

 

[RNtoMD87]

You just said anyone living an unhealthy lifestyle should be penalized in terms of health insurance. Now you pity them?

They need an incentive. Kind of like peopl needed an incentive to get healthcare coverage. And I don't mean the chronically ill that can't help it.

A big step forward would be more junk food taxes, banning or highly taxing tobbaco peoducts, possibly taxing alcohol higher, giving tax cuts to gym members, and banning machineguns. This would all improve safety. Maybe also mandating a way car manufacturers could prevent texting and driving.

We discuss things like this at our state nurse board meetings, we are currently involved with pacs aimed to further the distance people can smoke near public buildings, and common sense gun control such as mandating gun safes and locks.

 

[battie]

Working intimately with them and hearing their stories made me realize, its society that sets them up for failure.

Only to a certain extent.

I had two male cousins born to an addict mother who most likely used during both pregnancies. Both boys grew up in her household with loser male role models until they were high schoolish. Both did extremely stupid stuff. Exact same childhood.

One currently works for google, lives in Colorado making decent six figures with a great wife and two beautiful baby boys.

The other one died December 6, 2016 of a heroine overdose in Missouri. He left behind 5 kids by 4 different girls in 3 states. He broke into my grandparents house and stole all my family's heirloom jewelry. He beat the cap out my aunt and robbed her, his own mother.

My grandma had an even worse childhood as far as violence. Successful business owner for 45 years and now happily retired with my grandpa.

By all means, society doesn't help. But there are those individuals who don't want to improve themselves either.

 

[KCgophervet]

You just said anyone living an unhealthy lifestyle should be penalized in terms of health insurance. Now you pity them?

I thought the point they made earlier was to reward people for healthy behaviors, not penalize people for unhealthy behaviors? It may be semantics but my last job did exactly that, if you earned so many "wellness points" by doing things on their list (biking to work, going to the gym, getting a physical, etc) you earned some sort of reward (I think they reduced the cost of insurance by some nominal amount? or maybe it was a gift card? I don't really remember).

 

[pinkpuppy9]

By all means, society doesn't help. But there are those individuals who don't want to improve themselves either.

Or, you have the people who were raised in comfort that get into drugs. A high school classmate of mine, from a wealthy family, just OD'd and died. He had no societal struggles, had education, had a good job.

I thought the point they made earlier was to reward people for healthy behaviors, not penalize people for unhealthy behaviors? It may be semantics but my last job did exactly that, if you earned so many "wellness points" by doing things on their list (biking to work, going to the gym, getting a physical, etc) you earned some sort of reward (I think they reduced the cost of insurance by some nominal amount? or maybe it was a gift card? I don't really remember).

"we can further mandate healthy lifestyle choices, and simply implement penalties for not complying."

Edit: Does your work pay for your gym membership? What if you live too far and can't bike to work (like many inner city adults)? Etc. According to RN, people who don't perform these behaviors should be punished.

Okay, great, so we're still punishing the already poor, like I described earlier.

 

[battie]

Or, you have the people who were raised in comfort that get into drugs. A high school classmate of mine, from a wealthy family, just OD'd and died. He had no societal struggles, had education, had a good job.

"we can further mandate healthy lifestyle choices, and simply implement penalties for not complying."

I was just looking for that quote. Lol.

Which leads to a secondary question of that person raised in educated comfort, who very well knows the addiction risks with dangerous recreational drugs, being penalized the same as the old dude that smokes. If you're going to penalize the smoker or obese person for bad life style choices, will you penalize the heroine addict?

 

[KCgophervet]

Or, you have the people who were raised in comfort that get into drugs. A high school classmate of mine, from a wealthy family, just OD'd and died. He had no societal struggles, had education, had a good job.

"we can further mandate healthy lifestyle choices, and simply implement penalties for not complying."

Edit: Does your work pay for your gym membership? What if you live too far and can't bike to work (like many inner city adults)? Etc. According to RN, people who don't perform these behaviors should be punished.

Okay, great, so we're still punishing the already poor, like I described earlier.

It was at the University before vet school, so it wasn't free but if you went X number of times a month it was half price? This is me trying to remember my job from 2012 so a bit hazy. And yeah, that sounds more like what you were saying, I couldn't remember the exact content I just remembered it reminded me of my health insurance "perks". (Also got discounted Weight Watchers which was awesome for me at the time).

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I was just looking for that quote. Lol.

Which leads to a secondary question of that person raised in educated comfort, who very well knows the addiction risks with dangerous recreational drugs, being penalized the same as the old dude that smokes. If you're going to penalize the smoker or obese person for bad life style choices, will you penalize the heroine addict?

And I would also argue that a smoker, obese person, and heroine addict are more likely to continue to be marginalized/looked down upon/not reach those idealized lifestyle goals if they are penalized for their mental/physical health hurdles.

There is a huge mental health aspect to any addiction/eating disorder that can't be treated with punishment.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I thought the point they made earlier was to reward people for healthy behaviors, not penalize people for unhealthy behaviors? It may be semantics but my last job did exactly that, if you earned so many "wellness points" by doing things on their list (biking to work, going to the gym, getting a physical, etc) you earned some sort of reward (I think they reduced the cost of insurance by some nominal amount? or maybe it was a gift card? I don't really remember).

I believe both is good. Carrot and the stick. Many people aren't raised with good reasoning skills, and we need to guide them down the correct path.


I don't believe in severely punishing them. Perhaps raising taxes on tobacco products, alcohol, junk food etc and then giving them tax breaks for being healthy, non smoker etc.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I believe both is good. Carrot and the stick. Many people aren't raised with good reasoning skills, and we need to guide them down the correct path.

Says the person who started all of this by giving medical instruction to a vet assistant when person is neither a doctor nor in the veterinary field to begin with

 

[KCgophervet]

I believe both is good. Carrot and the stick. Many people aren't raised with good reasoning skills, and we need to guide them down the correct path.

Dude, super condescending...

 

[battie]

Many people aren't raised with good reasoning skills, and we need to guide them down the correct path.

Dam. I'm going to break my arm for a 7th time on this slippery slope.

Perhaps raising taxes on tobacco products, alcohol, junk food etc

Don't you go ruining my after exam fun, now.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Dude, super condescending...

I mean we shouldn't penalize them harshly. More like how a parent would correct their children. I'm basically fighting society when I educate my patients to be healthy. It's already ingrained in them, we need to prevent it from happening by ending the addict culture. We all know about americas gun culture and rape culture, so these are being improved. We need to focus on the addict culture. Whether it's sugar, illicit drugs, tobacco, or whatever.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I mean we shouldn't penalize them harshly. More like how a parent would correct their children. I'm basically fighting society when I educate my patients to be healthy. It's already ingrained in them, we need to prevent it from happening by ending the addict culture. We all know about americas gun culture and rape culture, so these are being improved. We need to focus on the addict culture. Whether it's sugar, illicit drugs, tobacco, or whatever.

....are you sure about that?

 

[RNtoMD87]

....are you sure about that?

Yes, we are teaching men not to rape, educating on how ridiculously unregulated guns are in America, etc. but we ignore the addict problem. Just last night I saw an ad on my patients tv "a drug to relieve OIC" (opioid induced constipation). Err how obvious is that?

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Yes, we are teaching men not to rape, educating on how ridiculously unregulated guns are in America, etc. but we ignore the addict problem. Just last night I saw an ad on my patients tv "a drug to relieve OIC" (opioid induced constipation). Err how obvious is that?

Wtf? Perfectly mentally able, law abiding citizens require opioids to function day to day. They use them as prescribed. Don't confuse dependency with addiction. Yes, someone with chronic pain may depend on opioids to function, but they don't deserve the negatives associated with the word 'addiction.' They are not getting high.

I've been on opioids myself and would have loved this drug you speak of. Was I ever addicted? No.

Edit: Oh, and we're moreso teaching white men that they can rape and get only a few months of jail if any jail at all. Our president has no plans to change gun laws. So yeah, idk what culture improvement you speak of.

 

[battie]

More like how a parent would correct their children.

Not any less condescending. If anything, more condescending.

 

[flameshock]

I mean we shouldn't penalize them harshly. More like how a parent would correct their children.

If you don’t see what’s wrong with these two sentences, no power in the ‘verse can help you, dude.

 

[Caiter92]

How refreshing. Another man pretending to understand rape culture.