When to reject DO acceptance?

[AOAmed]

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[Goro]

This is what I expect will be happening.

Interesting point, I hadn't thought of this yet, but I would hope that as long as DOs are able to score higher on COMLEX or USMLE tests that programs will still favor graduates from U.S. schools. After all, I've heard one of the purposes of this merger is to give more residency positions to U.S. physicians as opposed to foreign physicians who come here from residency then leave.


Two possibilities come to mind: one is that the number of MD/DO grads will outpace the supply of residency slots, and doctors will end up like lawyers...having an over-glutted profession. I can't imagine the AMA and AOA allowing this to happen, and so I foresee the opposite..that the number of residency programs will be mandated to grow..OR med schools will be limited in the number grads they produce, and perhaps new ones can't open unless they demonstrate residency slots for their future grads, int he same way they have to demonstrate they have rotation slots for their clinical years. Keep in mind that is is still uncharted terriotory.

The article inferred that there will eventually be a unified match, since all schools will be accredited by the same group. I wouldn't be surprised if the standards for DO programs completely change down the road, I was just looking at the years that will affect current and soon-to-be students (next 5 years). I wonder if this less DO residencies will really happen though.

I suspect that almuni will be fine, and residents in the program will have X time to find a new one.
Programs will have 6 years to get up to the ACGME standards, and I would think most of them will be capable of this. My question is about the programs which are unable to gain accreditation (if there are any) and what will happen to residents/alumnus of those programs. Will they be allowed to apply/transfer to other residencies or are they going to get screwed? My other question is whether or not certain fields will have greater difficulties getting accredited than others. In other words will getting ACGME accreditation be easier or harder for specialty programs vs. primary care or is it all the same.

 

[AOAmed]

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[ah24moosavi]

With the understanding that it is harder to match then, what specialties are within reasonable reach for an "average" DO student

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

With the understanding that it is harder to match then, what specialties are within reasonable reach for an "average" DO student

Just from second hand on here.
Easy: FM, IM, Peds, EM, Gas, Neurology, PM&R, Path, OB

Moderate: Rad, GS is starting to get there, Urology (though might be Hard and not just moderate)

Hard: Ortho (about equal for MDs and DO = very hard), Neurosurg, ENT, Plastics, Rad Onc (basically most surgical specialties

 

[mct2762]

There were more rad onco matches at a single low tier MD school than all of the DO schools combined for the last 5 years. But again, I'm using rad onc purely because it was an easy example. I could easily say a multitude of different residencies, I mean for example Derm. A graduate with an average USMLE score has a 70% shot of getting in, but for DOs? Probably 0 even with a 250.

but how many DO's even try to apply to rad onc?

 

[cliquesh]

but how many DO's even try to apply to rad onc?

Few. It's an obscure speciality and most med students never get exposed to it, especially if you're rotating at small community hospitals. I only, by chance, got exposed to it at the end of my 4th year. It is an awesome job.

Just from second hand on here.
Easy: FM, IM, Peds, EM, Gas, Neurology, PM&R, Path, OB

Moderate: Rad, GS is starting to get there, Urology (though might be Hard and not just moderate)

Hard: Ortho (about equal for MDs and DO = very hard), Neurosurg, ENT, Plastics, Rad Onc (basically most surgical specialties

Urology is hard.

Additionally, good residency programs in almost all specialities are hard to get into. You can match IM at some small community hospital as long as you have a pulse, but if you want to go to a top program you need a 240+ on the usmle, good letters, research, etc.

 

[hallowmann]

Nothing is worth residency troubles. That's your licensing you're messing with.

Stop acting like going DO = not matching. Sure, there is a difference but virtually all DOs match (a difference of maybe 5-6% from MDs). Sure, overall, matching will be better as an MD (any US MD) than a DO (any DO), but there are certainly situations where going DO might be worth it.

The most obvious example being if you are absolutely certain you want to do PM&R. Oddly enough many ACGME PM&R programs actually prefer (yes you heard that right) DOs to US MDs because of their extra MSK training. Plus as a DO in PM&R your ability to do OMT will benefit you in treating patients and in billing for it!

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Stop acting like going DO = not matching. Sure, there is a difference but virtually all DOs match (a difference of maybe 5-6% from MDs). Sure, overall, matching will be better as an MD (any US MD) than a DO (any DO), but there are certainly situations where going DO might be worth it.

The most obvious example being if you are absolutely certain you want to do PM&R. Oddly enough many ACGME PM&R programs actually prefer (yes you heard that right) DOs to US MDs because of their extra MSK training. Plus as a DO in PM&R your ability to do OMT will benefit you in treating patients and in billing for it!

Did you see anywhere that I wrote DO means not matching?

Did you see anywhere that I wrote not all DOs match?

Did you foresee in your crystal ball that there is a 115% chance the person is going for PMR?

Good neither did I.

 

[Jamie561]

Did you see anywhere that I wrote DO means not matching?

Did you see anywhere that I wrote not all DOs match?

Did you foresee in your crystal ball that there is a 115% chance the person is going for PMR?

Good neither did I.

I love reading the "it's hard doing specialty X coming both from DO and MD, so there's no difference xD" argument. Bottom line: DO closes doors. Even if you want IM/FM/Peds you will work harder as a DO come match season.

 

[TopTomato]

I love reading the "it's hard doing specialty X coming both from DO and MD, so there's no difference xD" argument. Bottom line: DO closes doors. Even if you want IM/FM/Peds you will work harder as a DO come match season.

The same argument can be made for MD as well. Pretty much the same doors will be closed as a low tier MD student.

 

[cliquesh]

The same argument can be made for MD as well. Pretty much the same doors will be closed as a low tier MD student.

Not really.

 

[TopTomato]

Not really.

So you mean to tell me, a student application from a no name MD institution is going to stand a chance at MGH?

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[235009]

So you mean to tell me, a student application from a no name MD institution is going to stand a chance at MGH?

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You definitely have to be a more stellar applicant from a lower tier MD school but the door is in no way closed. On the other hand that door is absolutely closed to DOs.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So you mean to tell me, a student application from a no name MD institution is going to stand a chance at MGH?

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Check some no name MD schools out. NYMC has a few rad oncs to mgh and some surgery to Women's.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You definitely have to be a more stellar applicant from a lower tier MD school but the door is in no way closed. On the other hand that door is absolutely closed to DOs.

Not exactly absolute. There are some matches on occasion which show it is possible.

 

[TopTomato]

You definitely have to be a more stellar applicant from a lower tier MD school but the door is in no way closed. On the other hand that door is absolutely closed to DOs.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

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[hallowmann]

Did you see anywhere that I wrote DO means not matching?

Did you see anywhere that I wrote not all DOs match?

Did you foresee in your crystal ball that there is a 115% chance the person is going for PMR?

Good neither did I.

Actually, in the comment I was replying to, you replied to someone, who said that residency problems with going DO isn't a concern for him, saying that not caring about residency problems jeopardizes licensing. That sounds to me like you are saying not caring about the residency problems someone might face as a DO jeopardizes licensing. But hey, I was just replying based on what I saw through my crystal phone display. My crystal ball is back home 🙂.

DOs might have trouble matching certain fields, but their general ability to get licensed as a physician isn't significantly affected.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Probably how the OP feels about the direction of this thread...

 

[AOAmed]

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[mct2762]

Few. It's an obscure speciality and most med students never get exposed to it, especially if you're rotating at small community hospitals. I only, by chance, got exposed to it at the end of my 4th year. It is an awesome job.

excuse my ignorance if this is something that has already been stated, but are you a DO?

 

[el_duderino]

I had been thinking that EM was where I was going to end up, but the more I learn about rad onc the more intrigued I am.

 

[deleted480308]

I had been thinking that EM was where I was going to end up, but the more I learn about rad onc the more intrigued I am.

are you going DO? rad onc is apparently pretty hard for the osteopath crowd, but I've got some of the same thoughts you do

 

[el_duderino]

are you going DO? rad onc is apparently pretty hard for the osteopath crowd, but I've got some of the same thoughts you do

No, I'm going MD. I test and interview very well, so I think I'll end up with a pretty good shot at almost any specialty I want. But I'm also old, so the relatively short residency of EM is appealing. We'll see what happens later on, but rad onc is certainly on my radar now along with general surgery and EM.

 

[deleted480308]

No, I'm going MD. I test and interview very well, so I think I'll end up with a pretty good shot at almost any specialty I want. But I'm also old, so the relatively short residency of EM is appealing. We'll see what happens later on, but rad onc is certainly on my radar now along with general surgery and EM.

I'm old too and unless I get a last minute phone call from my home institution will b a DO. It will all but knock me out of rad onc being likely but I'm loving EM as a nice short residency with a field that's protected from midlevels

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I'm old too and unless I get a last minute phone call from my home institution will b a DO. It will all but knock me out of rad onc being likely but I'm loving EM as a nice short residency with a field that's protected from midlevels

protected from mid levels...?

The ED in my home town (274 beds for the whole place, so medium sized) has about 1/3 of the ED "physicians" as PAs... The number is definitely growing. I am aware at larger institutions, and especially at higher trauma centers and academics, this is not as common. But for the average hospital, there absolutely is encroachment on the ED. The reality is that they dont have massive funds and yet they need more workers... so PAs and NPs fill that role. It is a shame, but the only places I have seen that is untouched are surgical fields or fellowship fields after IM.

 

[deleted480308]

protected from mid levels...?

The ED in my home town (274 beds for the whole place, so medium sized) has about 1/3 of the ED "physicians" as PAs... The number is definitely growing. I am aware at larger institutions, and especially at higher trauma centers and academics, this is not as common. But for the average hospital, there absolutely is encroachment on the ED. The reality is that they dont have massive funds and yet they need more workers... so PAs and NPs fill that role. It is a shame, but the only places I have seen that is untouched are surgical fields or fellowship fields after IM.

I shadowed in a large academic ER so maybe my viewpoint is off a bit...I've all but given up on FM due to the nursing lobby and as school progresses, may have to run to surgery as well. I'm not taking out med school loans to compete with a nurse on pricing

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I shadowed in a large academic ER so maybe my viewpoint is off a bit...I've all but given up on FM due to the nursing lobby and as school progresses, may have to run to surgery as well. I'm not taking out med school loans to compete with a nurse on pricing

Ahh yea that will do it...

 

[cliquesh]

[QUOTEmct2762, post: 15322981, member: 518061"]excuse my ignorance if this is something that has already been stated, but are you a DO?[/QUOTE]

Yep, I'm a DO in an acgme anesthesia residency.

 

[deleted480308]

[QUOTEmct2762, post: 15322981, member: 518061"]excuse my ignorance if this is something that has already been stated, but are you a DO?

Yep, I'm a DO in an acgme anesthesia residency.[/QUOTE]
how do you like gas so far? it sounds really interesting

 

[cliquesh]

It is tolerable, I suppose.

 

[user3]

It is tolerable, I suppose.

it would be nice to see you in the anes forum. Are you as terrified as the people there regarding CRNA's and AMC's?

 

[Roxas]

Probably how the OP feels about the direction of this thread...

idk, it seems to me like this thread was just a means of humble brag about OP's MD acceptance

 

[cliquesh]

it would be nice to see you in the anes forum. Are you as terrified as the people there regarding CRNA's and AMC's?

Nope. Anesthesia residents may need to starting doing fellowships in the future and salaries may go down some, but anesthesia will always be a decent life-style, relatively high paying job. The residents and fellows from my program are still getting very nice jobs right out of residency.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

excuse my ignorance if this is something that has already been stated, but are you a DO?

Yep, I'm a DO in an acgme anesthesia residency.

One of us... one of us... one of us....

idk, it seems to me like this thread was just a means of humble brag about OP's MD acceptance

Usually I would agree with you but OP gave a bunch of advice when the cycle began last year. She was also very enthusiastic about the osteopathic profession and doesn't seem like the person who would brag about such things.

Her situation is a tough one since she will be paying $40k more for different initials.

Go into the Osteo thread and look up the thread where the CEO of LECOM wrote an article against the merger [1]. Support against the merger is gaining some traction.

If you go to an MD school, you would never even have to care if the merger goes through or not.

[1] http://www.saveogme.com/acgme-sword

 

[Jumpstartmy5HT]

Just from second hand on here.
Easy: FM, IM, Peds, EM, Gas, Neurology, PM&R, Path, OB

Moderate: Rad, GS is starting to get there, Urology (though might be Hard and not just moderate)

Hard: Ortho (about equal for MDs and DO = very hard), Neurosurg, ENT, Plastics, Rad Onc (basically most surgical specialties

I wouldn't say EM is easy to match anymore. It's becoming increasingly more competitive.



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[Jumpstartmy5HT]

protected from mid levels...?

The ED in my home town (274 beds for the whole place, so medium sized) has about 1/3 of the ED "physicians" as PAs... The number is definitely growing. I am aware at larger institutions, and especially at higher trauma centers and academics, this is not as common. But for the average hospital, there absolutely is encroachment on the ED. The reality is that they dont have massive funds and yet they need more workers... so PAs and NPs fill that role. It is a shame, but the only places I have seen that is untouched are surgical fields or fellowship fields after IM.

Don't the mid levels in that case mostly take the bitch work? They take the pelvics, colds, and abscesses. The MD and DO peeps do the higher acuity stuff and the critical care stuff.


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[Jumpstartmy5HT]

idk, it seems to me like this thread was just a means of humble brag about OP's MD acceptance

I seriously hope my post didn't come across as a brag to the people who have read it. I really really really do not care about the initials. The residency placement problem is a real problem. I would have saved the the $40 plus interest if I wouldn't face any bias as a DO student come 4 years.

I already gave up my seat at KCUMB, and I still wonder if I made the right decision. I have been reading the 2014 match list threads, and the match lists all seem promising. However, while IM, EM, and psych interest me now, I don't know if my mind won't change in 4 years. So I would like to keep more doors open, I guess.

Also, I am a little sad that chizledfrmstone and I won't be classmates in the fall at KCUMB!


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[Awesome Sauceome]

Don't the mid levels in that case mostly take the bitch work? They take the pelvics, colds, and abscesses. The MD and DO peeps do the higher acuity stuff and the critical care stuff.


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nope... Not when you are a fresh ER doc out of school and the PA can do a procedure better than you heh... I physically saw with my own eyes an MD who could not intubate this guy and so the PA took over. Same thing with setting an ankle fracture one time.

Again its different at the academic hospitals. But in the mid level hospitals, they don't care about title, they just want the job done as cheaply as possible I am afraid.





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[Awesome Sauceome]

The ankle fracture was a different MD.

If you have the patient yelling and giving you a hard time because you suck or are slow, someone else is going to take over.

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[Jumpstartmy5HT]

nope... Not when you are a fresh ER doc out of school and the PA can do a procedure better than you heh... I physically saw with my own eyes an MD who could not intubate this guy and so the PA took over. Same thing with setting an ankle fracture one time.

Again its different at the academic hospitals. But in the mid level hospitals, they don't care about title, they just want the job done as cheaply as possible I am afraid.





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At the hospital where I work, the MLPs do not even go into the trauma room/cc room.


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[Awesome Sauceome]

At the hospital where I work, the MLPs do not even go into the trauma room/cc room.


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Yea it varies a lot for sure... Its like the whole CRNA thing. Some hospitals have loads of them running around. Some places (I have found particularly at surgical centers) they dont even hire them.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I seriously hope my post didn't come across as a brag to the people who have read it. I really really really do not care about the initials. The residency placement problem is a real problem. I would have saved the the $40 plus interest if I wouldn't face any bias as a DO student come 4 years.

I already gave up my seat at KCUMB, and I still wonder if I made the right decision. I have been reading the 2014 match list threads, and the match lists all seem promising. However, while IM, EM, and psych interest me now, I don't know if my mind won't change in 4 years. So I would like to keep more doors open, I guess.

Also, I am a little sad that chizledfrmstone and I won't be classmates in the fall at KCUMB!


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Damn 🙁

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I just turned down a seat at a school closer to home because of tuition. For the next few days I'll be wondering if I made the right choice.

Turning down a seat always sucks because we work so hard on making our application competitive.

 

[Roxas]

I seriously hope my post didn't come across as a brag to the people who have read it. I really really really do not care about the initials. The residency placement problem is a real problem. I would have saved the the $40 plus interest if I wouldn't face any bias as a DO student come 4 years.

I already gave up my seat at KCUMB, and I still wonder if I made the right decision. I have been reading the 2014 match list threads, and the match lists all seem promising. However, while IM, EM, and psych interest me now, I don't know if my mind won't change in 4 years. So I would like to keep more doors open, I guess.

Also, I am a little sad that chizledfrmstone and I won't be classmates in the fall at KCUMB!


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Someone must have peed in my cheerios that day cause that was a dick thing for me to say. I'm happy for you, and I realize you're just doing what's best for you. Congrats.

PS I'm also sad that me and chizledfrmstone can't be classmates

 

[Stagg737]

Damn 🙁

---
I just turned down a seat at a school closer to home because of tuition. For the next few days I'll be wondering if I made the right choice.

Turning down a seat always sucks because we work so hard on making our application competitive.

Look at the bright side though, at least that means you had a choice! Besides, our school seems like it's heading in the right direction, so I wouldn't worry about that choice too much.

 

[csx]

How is this thread still going.

 

[sjk1212]

I was at the top of my DO school class, had a 250 step 1 258 step 2, excellent ECs (national leadership positions, ED tech for 7 years, etc), a 732 comlex 1 688 comlex 2, and I can tell you that I was flat out rejected by residency programs purely because I was a DO. Also, I applied to roughly twice as many places as MDs with lower stats to end up with the same number of interviews. So, yes, going MD, is generally a better idea. I did well, and ended up one of a handful of DOs in my specialty, but don't fool yourselves that going DO will not resort in discrimination against you for residency.

This is exactly my concern. Sylvanthus - do you mind if I PM you to discuss this in a bit more depth?

 

[Seth Joo]

I am an accepted student at a osteopathic school. I already paid my deposits and sent in most of my required forms. I was recently accepted to an allopathic program and am now seriously considering attending the allopathic program.

I haven't gotten my financial aid information squared away yet but plan to get it done within the next couple of days.

When do I have to inform the osteopathic school of my decision?

I am also still thinking whether an extra 10k a year is worth it to attend the allopathic program... Any advice would be appreciated.

If you can get into an Allopathic school you are much better off being an MD. Also there is a reason why DO schools charge high acceptance deposits, because its not uncommon for students to get multiple acceptances, I myself got 5 acceptances. I was invited to 12 interviews, attended 8 of them and got into 5 schools, waitlisted at 2, and got a rejection from only one.

Despite the so-called merger, the bias remains against DOs. In certain parts of the country people think of MDs as physicians and surgeons.

 

[AlteredScale]

If you can get into an Allopathic school you are much better off being an MD. Also there is a reason why DO schools charge high acceptance deposits, because its not uncommon for students to get multiple acceptances, I myself got 5 acceptances. I was invited to 12 interviews, attended 8 of them and got into 5 schools, waitlisted at 2, and got a rejection from only one.

Despite the so-called merger, the bias remains against DOs. In certain parts of the country people think of MDs as physicians and surgeons.

The merger was basically forced on to the AOA, they were going to be barred from ACGME fellowships unless they themselves became ACGME accredited. Not that there's anything wrong with the merger, but I really don't think it's suddenly going to cause the IM PD at NYU-Langone to suddenly say "you know, I think we need to change our 'no DO applicants accepted' policy."

I see the bias letting up when the the old-timer PD's retire from these programs and allows someone to step in who has worked with DO's before.

 

[Seth Joo]

The merger was basically forced on to the AOA, they were going to be barred from ACGME fellowships unless they themselves became ACGME accredited. Not that there's anything wrong with the merger, but I really don't think it's suddenly going to cause the IM PD at NYU-Langone to suddenly say "you know, I think we need to change our 'no DO applicants accepted' policy."

I see the bias letting up when the the old-timer PD's retire from these programs and allows someone to step in who has worked with DO's before.

Who really knows.