When to start worrying as a high-stat applicant?

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voxveritatisetlucis said:
This is why I had 8 in my committee letter packet: if one is lukewarm, others can make up for it
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Premed committees are a mystery to me.

1. Do such committees explicitly or impliedly decline to include bad LORs in the package sent to medical schools? Do they tell applicants of bad apple LORs?

2. How do such committees manage to keep straight all the particular requirements about the number and composition of LORs required by each medical school for all the premeds applying from their college?
 
MyOdyssey said:
Premed committees are a mystery to me.

1. Do such committees explicitly or impliedly decline to include bad LORs in the package sent to medical schools? Do they tell applicants of bad apple LORs?

2. How do such committees manage to keep straight all the particular requirements about the number and composition of LORs required by each medical school for all the premeds applying from their college?
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1. I really don’t know and tend to doubt it. My alma mater has good med school placement but I doubt it’s because of this. Usually if a professor would write a bad letter, they just decline. To be safe, I’d recommend meeting with each beforehand.

2. Usually requirements only apply to individual letters or letter packets. So for example my letter had more individual letters than schools allow but since it was a committee letter I think it was accepted?
 
nimbus said:
A short letter can be very strong. He was accepted.


View attachment 344543
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I find that examples from the far past often show how much we've changed rather than showing possibilities. This was Kennedy's application Harvard, which was accepted as well.

The reasons that I have for wishing to go to Harvard are several. I feel that Harvard can give me a better background and a better liberal education than any other university. I have always wanted to go there, as I have felt that it is not just another college, but is a university with something definite to offer. Then too, I would like to go to the same college as my father. To be a "Harvard man" is an enviable distinction, and one that I sincerely hope I shall attain.

April 23, 1935
John F. Kennedy
 
wx18225500 said:
LM 82. , Applied broadly and turned in all my secondaries in mid to late July - received 3 II July/early august from NYU, Yale, Jefferson. Since then, it’s been down hill, my last II was 2 months ago, and Ive just gotten holds (2) and Rs (4, 3 in the span of the last week lol).

My concern, based on the consensus here on here, is that schools tend to review high stat applicants first. So are these the only ones I should look forward to? I’m especially worried since I feel like I megabotched my shot at NYU recently.
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Can I ask why you felt you botched nyu?
 
msummer said:
I find that examples from the far past often show how much we've changed rather than showing possibilities. This was Kennedy's application Harvard, which was accepted as well.

The reasons that I have for wishing to go to Harvard are several. I feel that Harvard can give me a better background and a better liberal education than any other university. I have always wanted to go there, as I have felt that it is not just another college, but is a university with something definite to offer. Then too, I would like to go to the same college as my father. To be a "Harvard man" is an enviable distinction, and one that I sincerely hope I shall attain.

April 23, 1935
John F. Kennedy
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How many Benjamins accompanied JFK’s terse application?
 
MyOdyssey said:
How many Benjamins accompanied JFK’s terse application?
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Tbh his application sums up why anyone wants to go to Harvard perfectly. Legacy and wealth inequality are still issues today, but the "tell me your story in 700 words" competition we have today is absolutely ridiculous too. Kids are literally competing to be the most unique caricature of a person possible and have the most "hardship"/be the most marginalized.
 
YCAGA said:
Tbh his application sums up why anyone wants to go to Harvard perfectly. Legacy and wealth inequality are still issues today, but the "tell me your story in 700 words" competition we have today is absolutely ridiculous too. Kids are literally competing to be the most unique caricature of a person possible and have the most "hardship"/be the most marginalized.
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This is why I have always thought that letters of recommendation are just as if not more important than essays. Stellar LORs speak more to somebody’s character and abilities than an essay
 
srirachamayonnaise said:
You should always ask to see the letters. If someone says no, I simply move on to another person. Too much at stake in life for someone else to decide your fate. It's totally BS.
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This advice is so bad it's almost malicious. Are you aware that letters are checked to see if the letter was confidential or not not (ie, the student did not waive a right to confidentiality)?

If not waived, that telegraphs that the sender was possibly inhibited from being honest about the application.

Big red flag there.

In life, you will find that lots of people will be determining your fate.
 
Goro said:
This advice is so bad it's almost malicious. Are you aware that letters are checked to see if the letter was confidential or not not (ie, the student did not waive a right to confidentiality)?

If not waived, that telegraphs that the sender was possibly inhibited from being honest about the application.

Big red flag there.

In life, you will find that lots of people will be determining your fate.
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That's just your own opinion.
 
Goro said:
This advice is so bad it's almost malicious. Are you aware that letters are checked to see if the letter was confidential or not not (ie, the student did not waive a right to confidentiality)?

If not waived, that telegraphs that the sender was possibly inhibited from being honest about the application.

Big red flag there.

In life, you will find that lots of people will be determining your fate.
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To my understanding, that's not entirely accurate. I've always been a little confused by this, so please clarify if you can.
When you submit your LORs, you merely choose whether to waive your LEGAL RIGHT to view them, not your ability to. In other words, your recommender can voluntarily choose to let you see your own LORs.

Am I understanding incorrectly? I don't see how your waiver can be construed as a promise to never view LORs, given its specific language. Yet, many people seem to believe exactly that, and I see this sentiment especially commonly on r/premed (but also SDN), where multiple times questions such as "My recommender emailed me my LoR and asked for my thoughts, do I have to toss it?" are asked.
 
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Do not ask your letter writers to show you their letter. That’s just weird and rude and just…why?

1) pick professor that you KNOW likes you
2) “would you be willing to write me a supportive letter of recommendation for medical school?” “Yes”
3) trust that one of your favorite professors isn’t malicious, this is easier if you know your conduct in college and beyond has been squeaky clean
4) lots of exams and studying and wards
5) become doctor
 
YCAGA said:
Do not ask your letter writers to show you their letter. That’s just weird and rude and just…why?

1) pick professor that you KNOW likes you
2) “would you be willing to write me a supportive letter of recommendation for medical school?” “Yes”
3) trust that one of your favorite professors isn’t malicious, this is easier if you know your conduct in college and beyond has been squeaky clean
4) lots of exams and studying and wards
5) become doctor
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Agreed lmao...this LoR discussion is a circus. Most are completely average or just say you're a decent student and I doubt these truly 'stellar' LoRs happen enough to be a topic of discussion in the first place.

One of my LoR writers (science prof) offered to write me a letter and let me read it. Even though he did both of these things, the letter amounted to a paragraph about "this person was top of the class;" "this person is nice and cares about others success (TAing related);" "this person cares about the material (was physio so related to medicine) and made an effort to learn outside of class;" "this persons activities in _____ EC stands reflects their __ traits bla bla;" "this person will make a fine doctor and I recommend them with utmost confidence"

Like what even more can be said? Should I have edited a paragraph about massive muscles and attractive frame, and the good old "this is the best student I have ever seen in my life?" Hahaha. I can't imagine letters stray too far away from this format, unless you are asking someone who you either don't know, didn't TA or talk to, or performed poorly in their class.

I've had 2 interviews where my letters came up and both were related to my PI and they said they liked the way my PI described my commitment to research (essentially apparently my PI said I came to lab late nights a lot...).
 
joe32 said:
Agreed lmao...this LoR discussion is a circus. Most are completely average or just say you're a decent student and I doubt these truly 'stellar' LoRs happen enough to be a topic of discussion in the first place.

One of my LoR writers (science prof) offered to write me a letter and let me read it. Even though he did both of these things, the letter amounted to a paragraph about "this person was top of the class;" "this person is nice and cares about others success (TAing related);" "this person cares about the material (was physio so related to medicine) and made an effort to learn outside of class;" "this persons activities in _____ EC stands reflects their __ traits bla bla;" "this person will make a fine doctor and I recommend them with utmost confidence"

Like what even more can be said? Should I have edited a paragraph about massive muscles and attractive frame, and the good old "this is the best student I have ever seen in my life?" Hahaha. I can't imagine letters stray too far away from this format, unless you are asking someone who you either don't know, didn't TA or talk to, or performed poorly in their class.

I've had 2 interviews where my letters came up and both were related to my PI and they said they liked the way my PI described my commitment to research (essentially apparently my PI said I came to lab late nights a lot...).
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I definitely can't attest to how often this is the case, but at several of my interviews, my interviewers made specific note how glowing and strong my rec letters were. One even noted that they were among the strongest she has seen, and served as great attestations to my ability or character or something (I forget exactly).

Of course, I have no clue what exact impact my letters had on decisions, but I've been accepted to both schools so far that released decisions.
 
I remember that undergrad recs actually have a section in which writer marks if a student is one of the best that they have ever had. Also true for law school recs.

Imagine that this is incredibly difficult to get at schools like Deerfield, SPS, Hotchkiss etc. but I’m a firm believer that letters of recs can push an applicant past the finish line. In a few of the interviews that I didn’t expect to get, interviewer specifically brought up my LoRs

So they are definitely very important
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
I remember that undergrad recs actually have a section in which writer marks if a student is one of the best that they have ever had. Also true for law school recs.

Imagine that this is incredibly difficult to get at schools like Deerfield, SPS, Hotchkiss etc. but I’m a firm believer that letters of recs can push an applicant past the finish line. In a few of the interviews that I didn’t expect to get, interviewer specifically brought up my LoRs

So they are definitely very important
Click to expand...
Most committee letters have that as well for med school.
 
msummer said:
Most committee letters have that as well for med school.
Click to expand...
voxveritatisetlucis said:
I remember that undergrad recs actually have a section in which writer marks if a student is one of the best that they have ever had. Also true for law school recs.

Imagine that this is incredibly difficult to get at schools like Deerfield, SPS, Hotchkiss etc. but I’m a firm believer that letters of recs can push an applicant past the finish line. In a few of the interviews that I didn’t expect to get, interviewer specifically brought up my LoRs

So they are definitely very important
Click to expand...
Sure but even in this case is it causal, in any sense? Like what does "best" entail? Highest marks? Best person (by what metrics?)? Most of that is just reflected on your app already be it from stats, experiences, etc.. I have heard that committees rank, but then again it begs the question of how, why, and if it even matters. Even from our scatterplot I see people with the 3 A's at T20s across the board and I see multiple R's (as in no A's at all) in the high stat quadrant (520+; 3.9+).

Also it probably highly depends on the school. This is isn't even going to be a joke but at my T10 undergrad I actually personally know over 20 people who got a LoR from the same non-science professor (premed requirement—I assume far more people actually do per year though); the committee also writes everyone a letter; yet most people get II's and A's at T10s as long as they have the stats and a good application. Are they all "best student?" Hell no.

Now if you're from a small school that doesn't really have stellar premeds (or premeds at all) and happen to be a literal genius once a year student? Sure maybe then it matters.

Y'all are making it sound like someone with a average application is going to get in because their math professor said they were the best student. No lol. You have glowing recs and the like because you ARE a good applicant.

As for mentioning it in interviews I doubt it means anything, probably just a formality or making conversation. In my case they just used it as a transition to talk about my research.
 
joe32 said:
Sure but even in this case is it causal, in any sense? Like what does "best" entail? Highest marks? Best person (by what metrics?)? Most of that is just reflected on your app already be it from stats, experiences, etc.. I have heard that committees rank, but then again it begs the question of how, why, and if it even matters. Even from our scatterplot I see people with the 3 A's at T20s across the board and I see multiple R's (as in no A's at all) in the high stat quadrant (520+; 3.9+).

Also it probably highly depends on the school. This is isn't even going to be a joke but at my T10 undergrad I actually personally know over 20 people who got a LoR from the same non-science professor (premed requirement—I assume far more people actually do per year though); the committee also writes everyone a letter; yet most people get II's and A's at T10s as long as they have the stats and a good application. Are they all "best student?" Hell no.

Now if you're from a small school that doesn't really have stellar premeds (or premeds at all) and happen to be a literal genius once a year student? Sure maybe then it matters.

Y'all are making it sound like someone with a average application is going to get in because their math professor said they were the best student. No lol. You have glowing recs and the like because you ARE a good applicant.

As for mentioning it in interviews I doubt it means anything, probably just a formality or making conversation. In my case they just used it as a transition to talk about my research.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that your research was the draw for your app?
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
Imagine that this is incredibly difficult to get at schools like Deerfield, SPS, Hotchkiss etc. but I’m a firm believer that letters of recs can push an applicant past the finish line. In a few of the interviews that I didn’t expect to get, interviewer specifically brought up my LoRs

So they are definitely very important
Click to expand...
They're very important in that a bad one will sink you. Most (like 90%) are blather about you always came to class, was in the top 10%, asked good questions...blah blah blah.

Maybe 5% are truly exceptional. They are the ones that make us actually state in Adcom meetings "this kid had great LORs..."

Do not engage in the sin of solipsism.
 
MyOdyssey said:
So you're saying that your research was the draw for your app?
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Me? No. I had a decent app all around and a friendly relationship with my PI of 4 years. I'm also probably considered URM (wasn't sure I would be, but there is no way I'm not based on current cycle).
 
msummer said:
To my understanding, that's not entirely accurate. I've always been a little confused by this, so please clarify if you can.
When you submit your LORs, you merely choose whether to waive your LEGAL RIGHT to view them, not your ability to. In other words, your recommender can voluntarily choose to let you see your own LORs.

Am I understanding incorrectly? I don't see how your waiver can be construed as a promise to never view LORs, given its specific language. Yet, many people seem to believe exactly that, and I see this sentiment especially commonly on r/premed (but also SDN), where multiple times questions such as "My recommender emailed me my LoR and asked for my thoughts, do I have to toss it?" are asked.
Click to expand...
Can't speak to AMCAS format, but here what AACOMAS has and what we see:

"I waive my right of access to this evaluation: YES"
 
joe32 said:
Sure but even in this case is it causal, in any sense? Like what does "best" entail? Highest marks? Best person (by what metrics?)? Most of that is just reflected on your app already be it from stats, experiences, etc.. I have heard that committees rank, but then again it begs the question of how, why, and if it even matters. Even from our scatterplot I see people with the 3 A's at T20s across the board and I see multiple R's (as in no A's at all) in the high stat quadrant (520+; 3.9+).

Also it probably highly depends on the school. This is isn't even going to be a joke but at my T10 undergrad I actually personally know over 20 people who got a LoR from the same non-science professor (premed requirement—I assume far more people actually do per year though); the committee also writes everyone a letter; yet most people get II's and A's at T10s as long as they have the stats and a good application. Are they all "best student?" Hell no.

Now if you're from a small school that doesn't really have stellar premeds (or premeds at all) and happen to be a literal genius once a year student? Sure maybe then it matters.

Y'all are making it sound like someone with a average application is going to get in because their math professor said they were the best student. No lol. You have glowing recs and the like because you ARE a good applicant.

As for mentioning it in interviews I doubt it means anything, probably just a formality or making conversation. In my case they just used it as a transition to talk about my research.
Click to expand...
I think the ranking may matter less at your T10 undergrad because it's T10... therefore even the people deemed average by that committee are average among exceptional people (generally speaking).

At my state school (T10 x 10 lol) we're told our committee ranking matters quite a lot, and our affiliated med school's (which is maybe T50) Dean weighs the "greatest" recommendation from the committee quite highly (typically only given to 10% of applicants).
 
Goro said:
Can't speak to AMCAS format, but here what AACOMAS has and what we see:

"I waive my right of access to this evaluation: YES"
Click to expand...
That essentially amounts to the same thing. Waiving your RIGHT to access does not mean you waive your ABILITY to access, right? You're just saying you have no legal right to view it, not guaranteeing that you will specifically avoid looking at it even if offered.

I do not know a single person that has not seen at least one of their LORs (all purely voluntary, provided by the LoR writer without request).

To quote from residency applicants a few years ago on SDN: The way I see it is this, I have waived my "right" to see the letter, does not mean "I have not seen this letter", it just means I acknowledge that I have no inherent right to view it. There is nothing illegal or unethical about this. But the letter writer is free to refuse. If they refuse, then you need to decide whether you'll use the letter anyway, or not.
forums.studentdoctor.net

Question on waving right to view LOR

First, is it better to waive your right or not waive your right and why? Second, can programs you apply to see if you did not waive your right to view the LOR? Third, if you do not waive your right to view it, will you be able to see the LOR on ERAS?
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
 
msummer said:
To my understanding, that's not entirely accurate. I've always been a little confused by this, so please clarify if you can.
When you submit your LORs, you merely choose whether to waive your LEGAL RIGHT to view them, not your ability to. In other words, your recommender can voluntarily choose to let you see your own LORs.

Am I understanding incorrectly? I don't see how your waiver can be construed as a promise to never view LORs, given its specific language. Yet, many people seem to believe exactly that, and I see this sentiment especially commonly on r/premed (but also SDN), where multiple times questions such as "My recommender emailed me my LoR and asked for my thoughts, do I have to toss it?" are asked.
Click to expand...
You are totally correct. In other words, the right you waive or not is really about whether you can view the letter if you demand to do so. However, if you waive the right and demand to see the letter, the writer or whoever is in possession of the letter can decide on their own whether to grant you the access. The ball is in their court if you waive the right.
 
Goro said:
Can't speak to AMCAS format, but here what AACOMAS has and what we see:

"I waive my right of access to this evaluation: YES"
Click to expand...
You waive your right, but you can still be given the access. Just not as your right. Get that? A right is something to which one has a just claim, per MW. Also note that waive is in the present tense, which means what happened before this waiver was answered is irrelevant.
 
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msummer said:
That essentially amounts to the same thing. Waiving your RIGHT to access does not mean you waive your ABILITY to access, right? You're just saying you have no legal right to view it, not guaranteeing that you will specifically avoid looking at it even if offered.

I do not know a single person that has not seen at least one of their LORs (all purely voluntary, provided by the LoR writer without request).

To quote from residency applicants a few years ago on SDN: The way I see it is this, I have waived my "right" to see the letter, does not mean "I have not seen this letter", it just means I acknowledge that I have no inherent right to view it. There is nothing illegal or unethical about this. But the letter writer is free to refuse. If they refuse, then you need to decide whether you'll use the letter anyway, or not.
forums.studentdoctor.net

Question on waving right to view LOR

First, is it better to waive your right or not waive your right and why? Second, can programs you apply to see if you did not waive your right to view the LOR? Third, if you do not waive your right to view it, will you be able to see the LOR on ERAS?
forums.studentdoctor.net forums.studentdoctor.net
Click to expand...
Is that what UG faculty are doing now? Jeeze, how times have slipped.

Well, all I can say is that our MS and medical students do not get the right to look at letters, and in all the time I've been here, not one of the many people I've written LORs for have asked to see a LOR.
 
Goro said:
Is that what UG faculty are doing now? Jeeze, how times have slipped.

Well, all I can say is that our MS and medical students do not get the right to look at letters, and in all the time I've been here, not one of the many people I've written LORs for have asked to see a LOR.
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haha yup. Tbh, many students have had least one LoR writer even ask them to write their own letter.
 
Goro said:
Is that what UG faculty are doing now? Jeeze, how times have slipped.

Well, all I can say is that our MS and medical students do not get the right to look at letters, and in all the time I've been here, not one of the many people I've written LORs for have asked to see a LOR.
Click to expand...
I have never asked to see a LOR either. One of my letter writers gave me a copy and asked me to look over it to see if there were any changes he should make. I'm kind of glad he did because he spelled my name wrong...
msummer said:
haha yup. Tbh, many students have had least one LoR writer even ask them to write their own letter.
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Yep, one of my letter writers wanted me to write a draft letter. I was like "Uhhhh I don't know how to write a letter of recommendation....."
 
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srirachamayonnaise said:
Pretty much only in this country we need some BS like LOR’s. It’s the vestige of colonialism and slavery.

www.insidehighered.com

Letters of recommendation reaffirm entrenched systems of bias and exclusion (opinion)

The practice reaffirms entrenched systems of inequity and bias, Michelle Iwen argues.
www.insidehighered.com www.insidehighered.com
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Yes it is also pretty hard for people who need to work full time rather than doing a SMP or something to get recommendations. I was going to apply to JD or PhD programs just in case but realized that it would be impossible to get LORs without going back to school since most ppl I could ask already wrote them for med school
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
Yes it is also pretty hard for people who need to work full time rather than doing a SMP or something to get recommendations. I was going to apply to JD or PhD programs just in case but realized that it would be impossible to get LORs without going back to school since most ppl I could ask already wrote them for med school
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You could ask them to write one for law school or PhD. No one gives a damn. They just have to change the word medical school to other things.
 
srirachamayonnaise said:
You could ask them to write one for law school or PhD. No one gives a damn. They just have to change the word medical school to other things.
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True but I haven’t talked to some of them in like 3 or 4 years. Seems like a cringe email to have to send
 
voxveritatisetlucis said:
True but I haven’t talked to some of them in like 3 or 4 years. Seems like a cringe email to have to send
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Nah, people just do it. One of my letters came from a prof who I haven’t seen for over a decade. All you have to do is ask. Smart people know this is just a game.
 
Goro said:
Is that what UG faculty are doing now? Jeeze, how times have slipped.

Well, all I can say is that our MS and medical students do not get the right to look at letters, and in all the time I've been here, not one of the many people I've written LORs for have asked to see a LOR.
Click to expand...
Things have changed somewhat, some schools and faculty members will let their students read their MSPE/LORs.

As a letter writer, all my trainees waive their right to read my evaluation, but I still give them a copy so they don't have to worry if my evaluation was "strong". I also think that it's a teaching moment so they see how to write strong letters for others in their future. See one, do one, teach one. 🙂
 
I just asked the professors that I got to know on a personal level to write them so that they could talk about my personality and not just my academics. At that point I trusted them enough to give me a decent letter and it worked out.

Definitely get to know your profs in undergrad for two reasons. Letting them get to know you will do good for getting a LOR. The second reason is that you may get an idea on how they will test/grade. Knowing more about the personality of the person who is giving you exams will allow you to guess how they will make them. If you have a prof who is all over the place when you talk to them and they're very on point about something in their lecture, they are really trying to focus on that topic for a reason. If they seem very uptight and are tiny detail oriented expect their exam to be like that as well.
 
As a bit of a side note, for my committee letter, I need 5+ letters. To those of you who remember my story about the professor that gave me a bad letter, he was the only letter writer I had that insisted on complete confidentiality (not that the others all showed me their letters, but at a minimum they asked me to send an email with what I wanted said in there and told me what they focused on). That experience really turned me off from ever using such fully private LoRs in the future. As Goro said, if negative, these letters can have a major adverse impact on your chances.
 
I'm starting to get a bit worried. I have seen many Canadians get interviews but I've only got a small collection of Rs to look at. I wonder if there's a red flag in my app?
 
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