When will the economy collapse?

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urge

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Follow up to my thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=483449 How would a recession affect us.

There were a couple of people saying there was no recession. Now the US economy is on the brink of collapse. The question is when. I have a bad feeling that it will start this week following Bear Sterns illiquidity.

What do think? When will it happen? A month, 2 mo, 6 mo?
 
I think it will be a slow and drawn out process over 1-3 years, and it will be difficult looking back to point to the turning point, although the death of Bear Sterns will be a notable event along the way. I think that larger banks will eventually follow. The loss of value in real estate that is the collateral for the bad mortage securities will be slow. Banks will find ways to keep their "assets" off the market for as long as possible, allowing them to claim that they are still worth more than they could ever fetch on the market.

When I lived in Japan during the collapse of their real estate and stock bubbles, it took years for anyone to realize the full extent of fraud and bad loans, due to secrecy in the corporate world. Just a few days ago they were telling us that Bear Sterns had lots of liquid assets available and was doing well. There are many more lies to be revealed, I am certain, but they will stall every step of the way.

On the other hand, Lehman Bros could go bankrupt next week, setting of a chain reaction the following week plunging the US into a decade-long depression. I don't expect this, but I wouldn't be at all surprised either. There is no trustworthy information out there, so the market is acting on pure speculation and emotion. The fact that JPMorgan/Chase was able to buy Bear Sterns for so unexpectedly little (1/30 of the stock price a few days ago, and 1/10 of what the press was suggesting minutes before the announcement) suggests to me that they know a lot more than we do about the extent of the impending crisis.
 
When I lived in Japan during the collapse of their real estate and stock bubbles, it took years for anyone to realize the full extent of fraud and bad loans, due to secrecy in the corporate world. Just a few days ago they were telling us that Bear Sterns had lots of liquid assets available and was doing well. There are many more lies to be revealed, I am certain, but they will stall every step of the way.


We cannot really compare to Japan. They had LOTS of money saved. They were lending money to us. We ain't got sht to fall back on. If it was "bad" in Japan, imagine how it will be over here.
 
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We cannot really compare to Japan. They had LOTS of money saved. They were lending money to us. We ain't got sht to fall back on. If it was "bad" in Japan, imagine how it will be over here.

I agree that it's a different situation. They also had to contend with deflation, which was pretty crazy.

I think that corporate misbehavior, however, is universal, and the banks and the fed will use every trick at their disposal to postpone the inevitable disaster. Who knows if they'll even be successful at that, however...

I've been shorting financials since last year and will be doing it for quite some time...
 
I agree that it's a different situation. They also had to contend with deflation, which was pretty crazy.

I think that corporate misbehavior, however, is universal, and the banks and the fed will use every trick at their disposal to postpone the inevitable disaster. Who knows if they'll even be successful at that, however...

I've been shorting financials since last year and will be doing it for quite some time...[/QUOTE]

I suspect you'll be a very happy man.
 
30 seconds from right... now.

you make light of something that really shouldn't be made light of. when youre school increases tuition because the state budget got "readjusted" due to "economic circumstances" then you'll see what we've been talking about. good luck.
 
let's say it does, is there anything you can do about it?

speculation and anxiety about the future will drive you CRAZY!

don't do it.

or do it.

whatever.
 
let's say it does, is there anything you can do about it?

speculation and anxiety about the future will drive you CRAZY!

don't do it.

or do it.

whatever.

Yeah, there are things you can do about it. You can see the situation for what it is (admittedly a very hard thing to do), and you can direct your assets towards the overall trends. You can view these trends as short term or longer term. I'm not going to give direct advice on a public forum.
 
It's not speculation, as this latest economic disaster has been predicted several years ago.

Specific to this:
http://themessthatgreenspanmade.blogspot.com/2008/02/nouriels-twelve-step-program-for.html

Nouriel's twelve steps:

Step one is the worst housing recession in US history. House prices will, he says, fall by 20 to 30 per cent from their peak, which would wipe out between $4,000bn and $6,000bn in household wealth. Ten million households will end up with negative equity and so with a huge incentive to put the house keys in the post and depart for greener fields. Many more home-builders will be bankrupted.

Step two would be further losses, beyond the $250bn-$300bn now estimated, for subprime mortgages. About 60 per cent of all mortgage origination between 2005 and 2007 had "reckless or toxic features", argues Prof Roubini. Goldman Sachs estimates mortgage losses at $400bn. But if home prices fell by more than 20 per cent, losses would be bigger. That would further impair the banks' ability to offer credit.

Step three would be big losses on unsecured consumer debt: credit cards, auto loans, student loans and so forth. The "credit crunch" would then spread from mortgages to a wide range of consumer credit.

Step four would be the downgrading of the monoline insurers, which do not deserve the AAA rating on which their business depends. A further $150bn writedown of asset-backed securities would then ensue.

Step five would be the meltdown of the commercial property market, while step six would be bankruptcy of a large regional or national bank.

Step seven would be big losses on reckless leveraged buy-outs. Hundreds of billions of dollars of such loans are now stuck on the balance sheets of financial institutions.

Step eight would be a wave of corporate defaults. On average, US companies are in decent shape, but a "fat tail" of companies has low profitability and heavy debt. Such defaults would spread losses in "credit default swaps", which insure such debt. The losses could be $250bn. Some insurers might go bankrupt.

Step nine would be a meltdown in the "shadow financial system". Dealing with the distress of hedge funds, special investment vehicles and so forth will be made more difficult by the fact that they have no direct access to lending from central banks.

Step 10 would be a further collapse in stock prices. Failures of hedge funds, margin calls and shorting could lead to cascading falls in prices.

Step 11 would be a drying-up of liquidity in a range of financial markets, including interbank and money markets. Behind this would be a jump in concerns about solvency.

Step 12 would be "a vicious circle of losses, capital reduction, credit contraction, forced liquidation and fire sales of assets at below fundamental prices".

Considering steps 1,2,3,4,9,10,11 have happened or are in the midst of happening, we're in for a mess overall. The complete financial failure of BEAR STEARNS for crying out loud!

Just imagine the loads and loads of loans that are now worthless pieces of paper. The dollar is collapsing, and our consumerist culture is taking a hit with regards to market investments and real estate.

What happens when more people get notices of default? More foreclosures, more reductions in housing prices because of the buttload of inventory (months of inventory is at historic/astronomic peaks), more people not willing to pay mortgages that cost hundreds of thousands more than the value of their homes, then more foreclosures and lower prices. The cycle of destruction continues.

This is a disaster. This is not speculation. This is the reality which artificially low interest rates created. Malinvestment at its maximum. Thanks, Federal Reserve!

F***ing Helicopter Ben. 😡
 
If you guy are not in the market, I would be thinking about snatching up some bargains in strong companies getting beat up for no reason besides panic and fund managers forced to sell to cash out clients. There is no way to time the market. That is the fastest way to loose money.

Not related to anesthesia I guess. If the market tanks everyone suffers and universal health care becomes more popular although you would have to raise taxes for that. I don't see anyone doing that soon. I guess you could raise taxes on the "rich" (>30K). The middle class will get squeezed no matter what.
 
I was pleasantly surprised when the market did not go bersek yesterday. However, Bernanke is causing so much inflation that our salaries won't go that long. 😡 He is making everyone of us poorer by debasing the US dollar, socializing the loss of bank through all the monetary system. I wonder if he can be held liable for that.
 
you make light of something that really shouldn't be made light of. when youre school increases tuition because the state budget got "readjusted" due to "economic circumstances" then you'll see what we've been talking about. good luck.

Well HEY there angry-pants. I'm not making light. Look around you. It's collapsing. The Fed will cut rates to make it look like it isn't and the Federal Reserve will continue to bail-out banks to put on a smoke and lights show that everything is fine and dandy, but it isn't. Calling it making light, whatever. Just know that it's already happening.
 
If you guy are not in the market, I would be thinking about snatching up some bargains in strong companies getting beat up for no reason besides panic and fund managers forced to sell to cash out clients. There is no way to time the market. That is the fastest way to loose money.

Not related to anesthesia I guess. If the market tanks everyone suffers and universal health care becomes more popular although you would have to raise taxes for that. I don't see anyone doing that soon. I guess you could raise taxes on the "rich" (>30K). The middle class will get squeezed no matter what.

I agree that it's dangerous to try and time the market. I think it's equally as difficult to pick individual stocks. Also, many feel that this is just the tip of the iceberg and that the stock and bond markets have a long way to go on the downside.

As for the economy and pretty much everything else, check out the following which is common sense but important to keep in mind.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/17/us/17fiscal.html?_r=1&st=cse&sq=state+budgets&scp=1&oref=slogin
 
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Since the last time I took econ was 11 years ago in high school, what does the upheaval in the credit markets mean for us students with a crap load of debt from medical school? If inflation continues, doesn't that devalue the debt? What happens if your lender tanks? What are the day to day realities of this going to be? are we going to load our stuff up in a Model T and truck accross Oklahoma à la Grapes of Wrath looking for fruitpicking jobs in sacramento?
 
What do think? When will it happen? A month, 2 mo, 6 mo?
I've come to realize over time that is not going to be a the sky is falling collapse. It's going to be a slow grind on the American way of life day by day. Food will continue to get more expensive, housing will continue to slip away from younger generations, and the college burden just will keep growing more every year a new kid heads off for 4 years of keggers and bongs.

Quality of life will deteriorate just a little bit more each day. I would say the inevitable "collapse" everyone asks about has already started but in very slow insidious ways. The debt ceiling (if that isn't the quintessential oxymoron I don't know what is) after a lot of grandstanding will be raised for the 743rd time. In fact we're so far down the rabbit hole that people now think fighting over raising the debt ceiling is the actual problem and not the debt itself that can never be paid back.

Technological advances can never be reversed so we'll feel with each new gadget that life must be getting better. But I think the number of homeless, crime, climate, sporadic unrest, mental illness, lack of civility, dysfunctional government, financial insolvency, and a number of other conditions leads me to believe we've currently begun that slow steady downslope.
 
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I've come to realize overtime that is not going to be a the sky is falling collapse. It's going to be a slow grind on the American way of life day by day. Food will continue to get more expensive, housing will continue to slip away from younger generations, and the college burden just will keep growing more every year a new kid heads off for 4 years of keggers and bongs.

Quality of life will deteriorate just a little bit more each day. I would say the inevitable "collapse" everyone asks about has already started but in very slow insidious ways. The debt ceiling (is that isn't the quintessential oxymoron I don't know what is) after a lot of grandstanding well be raised for the 743rd time. In fact we're so far down the rabbit hole that people now think fighting over raising the debt ceiling is the actual problem and not the debt itself that can never be paid back.

Technological advances can never be reversed so we'll feel with each new gadget that life must be getting better. But I think the number of homeless, crime, climate, mental illness, lack of civility, dysfunctional government, financial insolvency, and a number of other conditions leads me to believe we've currently begun that slow steady downslope.
I can imagine our economy slowly moving toward socialism as people rely more and more (both directly and indirectly) on government due to years of inflationary monetary policy coming home to roost. Tax credits become larger/more ubiquitous, inflation adjustments/payments, then universal basic income. As debt accrues and currency devalues, prices for essentials that have narrow margins will climb. At some point we are effectively issuing vouchers to pay for basic necessities, eventually rationing. When price controls are implemented due to inflation, basic good(s) companies may have to fold or be socialized. Then the productivity of said companies will fall off a cliff, forcing more government intervention. I don't see how this could end well.
 
I can imagine our economy slowly moving toward socialism as people rely more and more (both directly and indirectly) on government due to years of inflationary monetary policy coming home to roost. Tax credits become larger/more ubiquitous, inflation adjustments/payments, then universal basic income. As debt accrues and currency devalues, prices for essentials that have narrow margins will climb. At some point we are effectively issuing vouchers to pay for basic necessities, eventually rationing. When price controls are implemented due to inflation, basic good(s) companies may have to fold or be socialized. Then the productivity of said companies will fall off a cliff, forcing more government intervention. I don't see how this could end well.

You say this while over the past 30 years the wealth of the country has become increasingly concentrated by the top 1% and especially the top 0.01%. Smh
 
wow a 2008 thread!!

but agree. the distant future of this country is not looking good. debt is all fine, until its not. one major collapse, will have a domino effect. kind of like how ftx went bankrupt, and took multiple others with it . except in this case it will be on a much larger scale.

USA got way more problems than most people realize. you have a large portion of majority who simply isnt educated enough to even understand the problems, and who will simply resort to protest to get what they want, and you have the politicians these people vote for who will drive the country to the ground.

our poorly educated population, in a democratic system, will be the downfall of our country imo sooner or later. no president or congress will pass bills to reduce the debt, because that would likely mean cutting big item spendings, which would reduce their popularity, causing them to lose re election and get replaced by someone who will continue status quo.
 
The issue and it repeats itself is the banks will always be saved by the govt or friends.

Just look what happen to gabe plotkin and GameStop. The dude didn’t lose his shirt. He still kept his 44 million dollar Miami house. Still kept half of his 800 million plus profit he made in 2020.

So he’s still worth over half a billion dollar. No consequences for these guys. They make big bets and have nothing to lose

The Goldman Sachs guys were done in 2008. Done done. They got bailed out plus came back and made even more with 0% interest loans from the Feds in 2009….which was the bottom of the market.

So they got a get out of jail card and became richer.
 
The issue and it repeats itself is the banks will always be saved by the govt or friends.

Just look what happen to gabe plotkin and GameStop. The dude didn’t lose his shirt. He still kept his 44 million dollar Miami house. Still kept half of his 800 million plus profit he made in 2020.

So he’s still worth over half a billion dollar. No consequences for these guys. They make big bets and have nothing to lose

The Goldman Sachs guys were done in 2008. Done done. They got bailed out plus came back and made even more with 0% interest loans from the Feds in 2009….which was the bottom of the market.

So they got a get out of jail card and became richer.

Well that's bc personal assets are split from business. Isn't that why so many home owners do llc
 
Well that's bc personal assets are split from business. Isn't that why so many home owners do llc
Not plotkin. He was done. He had nothing to cover. Literally the hedge funds force Robin Hood the brokerage to stop/limit the Reddit people from trading. There was a run on the hedge funds in their short positions. Basically illegal what they were doing by forcing Robin Hood to stop/limit/restrict the trading. A lot of dirty money or mafia style coercion by the hedge funds to tell Robin Hood guys to limit those trades.

We all know that.
 
I just want to know when to put all the cash I'm saving to work when everything's gone to ****.
Nobody knows. Dollar cost average on the way down and on the way up. It’ll be good when you need the money. If the market terminally collapses, well then there are probably much larger problems than your ROI. The world only ends once, so why bet on it?
 
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Yeah stop giving away money to people that didn't earn it
But what do we do now about money that has already been spent? As I understand it, the options are

1. raise the debt ceiling

2. government shutdown.
 
I meant an alternative to raising the debt ceiling.

Gotta balance thr books. Tax the extremely wealthy thay have gotten away with it for so long. No more corporate handouts that just end up in the pockets of CEOs. Decrease spending on defense. We live in a country with the most number of billionaires and a class of mega wealthy net worth.
 
Gotta balance thr books. Tax the extremely wealthy thay have gotten away with it for so long. No more corporate handouts that just end up in the pockets of CEOs. Decrease spending on defense. We live in a country with the most number of billionaires and a class of mega wealthy net worth.
30,000 per year puts one in the top 1% of world household income. You are the elite. Watch out for the pitchforks and torches. Tell your wife No more Hermes and Chanel. Will have to make due with Coach and Kate Spade.
 
30,000 per year puts one in the top 1% of world household income. You are the elite. Watch out for the pitchforks and torches. Tell your wife No more Hermes and Chanel. Will have to make due with Coach and Kate Spade.

Its not the world household income that matters here. And if your statistic is true that means the average America is well in the top 1% because the average per capita income is something more than $55,000 a year.

I also pay my share of taxes. I don't hide behind loopholes to cheat the system. Close the loopholes.
 
Can't just tax your way out of this much debt. Even with taxing the top 1% at 100%, the government won't be funded for a year. There have to be massive cuts to spending (looking at you, DoD) to balance the budget.

Nah coming out of Medicare because China you know and Russia and Ukraine
 
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Nah coming out of Medicare because China you know and Russia and Ukraine
Nothing will get cut. Democracy means that cutting something will piss off one group of voters or another. It will be borrow and print until that stops working. No other way. To that end it is very useful to have our paper money backed by the stability and overwhelming might of the US military….
 
Gotta balance thr books. Tax the extremely wealthy thay have gotten away with it for so long. No more corporate handouts that just end up in the pockets of CEOs. Decrease spending on defense. We live in a country with the most number of billionaires and a class of mega wealthy net worth.
Won't make a dent. Keep going.
 
But what do we do now about money that has already been spent? As I understand it, the options are

1. raise the debt ceiling

2. government shutdown.
Then shut it down. Stop with the delusion of raise it and then get responsible. This is the !!78th!! raising of the "ceiling."

Shutting down the government now will cause immediate pain but infinitely less cumulative pain of running the tab up further. Also, why do so few understand you aren't defaulting or going out of business. It simply means the government can't go further in debt, ie a balanced budget, ie can spend as much as it takes in to cover debts and whatever the people decide is important.

Lastly, the overwhelming reason for a government is a stable society that can protect it's citizens. Going after defense is the last area of the government to go after. The job of government was never meant to be a giant handout hammock for every citizen and the world.
 
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