Where are all the caribean failure stories?

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There are so many carib students rotating in NYC because there is abundance of hospitals there that don't have any US medical students (or very few) rotating through them. There are 6 medical schools in NYC, 9 million people, and >40 hospitals. Caribs end up there for rotations because there are hospitals with residency programs, but no US medical students, so they have room for the caribs.

This is also the same reason so many IMGs end up in NYC for residency, just an overabundance of availability. There are ~40 internal medicine residency programs in NYC alone, most of which are in bad locations, in run down hospitals, and with difficult patient populations.

It makes total sense that US grads don't want to go there for residency, I don't want to be there either. But if it is between working in a difficult hospital for 3 years and then having your whole career ahead of you, or not matching and having nothing, you better believe I would choose the difficult hospital in NYC. Someone has to treat these patients, so that is why lots of IMGs end up there.

That's fine and all, but like ox said there are plenty of other places out there with sub-par hospitals that I'm sure would love free money to take on a few more students for rotations. There are also plenty of sub-par residency programs that would probably take them as residents. I just find it interesting that so many of them end up in NYC. I can't imagine that the majority of them are from the area or that they all want to end up in a major city. I see your points, I just think there's probably more to it than just having bad locations.

why would anyone listen to their advisor. that's like me going up to a random guy in 7/11 and telling him to advise me on my career. no thanks, I'll do the research myself.

So you're not going to take any advice from someone whose job is literally to know what scores/standards you need to reach to get into medical school? Sounds like a good plan...

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That's fine and all, but like ox said there are plenty of other places out there with sub-par hospitals that I'm sure would love free money to take on a few more students for rotations. There are also plenty of sub-par residency programs that would probably take them as residents. I just find it interesting that so many of them end up in NYC. I can't imagine that the majority of them are from the area or that they all want to end up in a major city. I see your points, I just think there's probably more to it than just having bad locations.



So you're not going to take any advice from someone whose job is literally to know what scores/standards you need to reach to get into medical school? Sounds like a good plan...

no, because I can look that up myself in literally 2 minutes. just like I zone out whatever our student services people say about matching, because that too, I can look up myself in 2 minutes.
 
no, because I can look that up myself in literally 2 minutes. just like I zone out whatever our student services people say about matching, because that too, I can look up myself in 2 minutes.

Except if your advisor is connected or knows their sources like they are supposed to, then they will have that information before it's published. COCA hasn't released the most recent match rates for the AOA yet, but I've known them for about a month because of my advisor, and some of that data probably won't be released to the public. If your advisor is good, they will have more information than you would be able to find on their own.
 
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Except if your advisor is connected or knows their sources like they are supposed to, then they will have that information before it's published. COCA hasn't released the most recent match rates for the AOA yet, but I've known them for about a month because of my advisor, and some of that data probably won't be released to the public. If your advisor is good, they will have more information than you would be able to find on their own.

Do you think an advisor may get kickbacks from the Carib schools?
Heck SDN has it's own category for one of them!
 
Except if your advisor is connected or knows their sources like they are supposed to, then they will have that information before it's published. COCA hasn't released the most recent match rates for the AOA yet, but I've known them for about a month because of my advisor, and some of that data probably won't be released to the public. If your advisor is good, they will have more information than you would be able to find on their own.

that information isn't useful. it doesn't change year to year enough to warrant changes in strategy. It's not difficult to look up what numbers one needs to match into a given specialty. just like it's not difficult to look up what numbers someone needs to get into a medical school.
 
Do you think an advisor may get kickbacks from the Carib schools?
Heck SDN has it's own category for one of them!

I would really hope not, that's unethical on so many levels...and SDN has a category for what?

that information isn't useful. it doesn't change year to year enough to warrant changes in strategy. It's not difficult to look up what numbers one needs to match into a given specialty. just like it's not difficult to look up what numbers someone needs to get into a medical school.

Fair enough, but if the advisor is even decent at their job, they'll still have insight you can't get by just looking up stats. It's the same thing as people who go to medical school and never talk to their professors. They are another resource that (should) know more than you that is not being utilized.
 
I would really hope not, that's unethical on so many levels...and SDN has a category for what?



Fair enough, but if the advisor is even decent at their job, they'll still have insight you can't get by just looking up stats. It's the same thing as people who go to medical school and never talk to their professors. They are another resource that (should) know more than you that is not being utilized.
For SGU
 
And all I was doing was using that as an example that there are indeed many, many residency positions that are filled outside the NRMP, and a disproportionate number of them go to IMGs (US or otherwise)

This is patently false. Only all-out programs can take residents outside the NRMP... and at last count there were a dozen "all-out" IM programs total, with the count getting smaller every year. For reference, there's 400 IM programs in this country. There's also <10 each FM, peds, and I think surgery programs in the same boat. All told, maybe 30 programs in the country, most of which aren't that big and the vast majority of which are in NYC. And they're all programs that are the absolute least competitive in their respective fields.

(Be careful of any list of "all out" programs you see, because a lot of them seem to include a bunch of military programs that are only out of the NRMP because they fill through the military match)
 
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Also, sometimes the all-out programs are all-out simply because they're new and were too late with getting final approval to make ERAS worth wild (this happened at my hospital's new ACGME IM program, so they signed a bunch of SGU students who were rotating at the hospital. They're all-in this year).
 
I would really hope not, that's unethical on so many levels...and SDN has a category for what?



Fair enough, but if the advisor is even decent at their job, they'll still have insight you can't get by just looking up stats. It's the same thing as people who go to medical school and never talk to their professors. They are another resource that (should) know more than you that is not being utilized.

google is more knowledgeable than any professor IMO. I'm also one of those people who never ask a question in lecture, because that too I can look up in 2 seconds. I'll ask questions for physical exam but the people who ask 100 questions in lecture when they all could be easily looked up annoy me to no end
 
This is patently false. Only all-out programs can take residents outside the NRMP... and at last count there were a dozen "all-out" IM programs total, with the count getting smaller every year. For reference, there's 400 IM programs in this country. There's also <10 each FM, peds, and I think surgery programs in the same boat. All told, maybe 30 programs in the country, most of which aren't that big and the vast majority of which are in NYC. And they're all programs that are the absolute least competitive in their respective fields.)

The point I was trying to make is that the number of "all-out" residency positions is significant in a discussion of caribbean match statistics because basically all of these positions go to IMGs.

In 2014, there were by my count 9 "all-out" IM programs in NYC alone totaling 230 residency positions. So if there are ~30 programs total, I think a fair estimate would be 400-500 "all-out" positions (this number because IM tend to have the largest classes, so an average of 10 spots per remaining program seemed reasonable).

While this 400-500 is not substantial in regards to the total number of match positions, it is absolutely substantial when you are talking about the ~2000 residency spots that US-IMGs match into every year. If 100 of those spots go to Ross/SGU students, that has a substantial effect on their residency placement percentage.

EDIT: and the fact that these programs are the least desirable is inconsequential to this discussion. If you read my posts I fully agree that the least desirable/competitive positions go to IMGs, but these are still positions that will allow you to become a fully licensed physician in the US.
 
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google is more knowledgeable than any professor IMO. I'm also one of those people who never ask a question in lecture, because that too I can look up in 2 seconds. I'll ask questions for physical exam but the people who ask 100 questions in lecture when they all could be easily looked up annoy me to no end

Facts can be looked up on google easily, but often explanations to clarify the reasoning behind a concept or relationship cannot be that easily found. I was confused about a physiology concept in MS1 and I tried google, and consulted 4 different physiology texts trying to find an explanation for my question, none of which provided it. Finally ended up emailing the professor, who was able to provide the answer I was looking for. Professors do have their uses when it comes to that sort of thing.
 
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thats the mature way to do it. It pisses me off when someone asks literally 5 questions in a lecture, that all can be answered easily in 2 seconds on google. Like epidemiology stuff "how prevalent is this" idk idiot, just google it yourself and don't make us waste 2 minutes and interrupt the lecturer's train of thought
 
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I'd encourage you to wander over to pre-allo and see what L2D's experience working clinically with these students has been if we are actually going to start talking about the relative quality of the training and not just the predatory practices.
Lol would love a link to this
 
that information isn't useful. it doesn't change year to year enough to warrant changes in strategy. It's not difficult to look up what numbers one needs to match into a given specialty. just like it's not difficult to look up what numbers someone needs to get into a medical school.


And if numbers were all it took, you wouldnt be writing personal statements, going on interviews, sending LORs, or building a resume.

Dont get me wrong, I had an awful pre-med advisor too. That doesnt mean everyone should ignore theirs. They are much more helpful than SDN for 99% of pre-med issues.
 
Facts can be looked up on google easily, but often explanations to clarify the reasoning behind a concept or relationship cannot be that easily found. I was confused about a physiology concept in MS1 and I tried google, and consulted 4 different physiology texts trying to find an explanation for my question, none of which provided it. Finally ended up emailing the professor, who was able to provide the answer I was looking for. Professors do have their uses when it comes to that sort of thing.

@PL198 ^^^This is more what I was talking about. Clarification of concepts, not just asking about random facts or details. I know what you mean about the stupid questions though. We have a girl in our class that sometimes asks a professor to repeat entire slides because apparently she can't read them herself. I've wanted to get up and slap her on more than one occasion...

Lol "ECs" are of 0% importance to most residency programs. This is not pre-med.

Fixed that for you. Just because an EC won't necessarily help me land a residency spot doesn't mean that it won't enrich me or help me achieve my personal goals in medicine. Besides, I think a dual degree and research which leads to 5-6 first author publications might just be seen as relevant ECs at some places...
 
@PL198 ^^^This is more what I was talking about. Clarification of concepts, not just asking about random facts or details. I know what you mean about the stupid questions though. We have a girl in our class that sometimes asks a professor to repeat entire slides because apparently she can't read them herself. I've wanted to get up and slap her on more than one occasion...



Fixed that for you. Just because an EC won't necessarily help me land a residency spot doesn't mean that it won't enrich me or help me achieve my personal goals in medicine. Besides, I think a dual degree and research which leads to 5-6 first author publications might just be seen as relevant ECs at some places...

There are only a few fields where research is practically a prerequisite. I know a bunch of first years who want to do im and are losing their minds about what to do this summer which is ridiculous. Unless you're getting a phd, the second degree is not impressive. First author publications aren't easy to get unless you're doing some bs chart review
 
There are only a few fields where research is practically a prerequisite. I know a bunch of first years who want to do im and are losing their minds about what to do this summer which is ridiculous. Unless you're getting a phd, the second degree is not impressive. First author publications aren't easy to get unless you're doing some bs chart review

The research is my own and is just being supervised by a faculty member who said I would be first author on any papers that come out of it. We are planning on it encompassing multiple projects over the next 3.5 years that all fall under the same general topic. According to my prof we could easily get 5-6 pubs out of it if things pan out well and 2-3 even if they don't. So getting some first author pubs out of it shouldn't be too difficult, though I realize it's more difficult than I'm making it sound, and much more difficult for many applicants. Mostly I'm just doing it because it interests me and I wouldn't mind making it my career side-project, any publications I get out of it are just a bonus to me. I agree about the summer research thing though.

I'm not expecting the dual degree to be that impressive. However, we've had about a dozen 4th years/alumni come talk to us about the program and what they did afterwards. Every one of them said that they were asked about their degree at almost every residency interview they attended, and 2 or 3 of them said they were later told their degree played a major role in their acceptance over other applicants. Not saying the dual degree is going to get me a spot, just that it's another thing on my app that is a plus. Like the research, it's also something I'm very interested in and will benefit me throughout my career.

TL;DR I'm focusing on the activities because I want to, not for residency reasons. If they help me get in somewhere in the meantime then that's just icing on the cake for me.

Anyway, wasn't this thread supposed to be about really expensive vacations in the Caribbean or something?
 
You again are showing your ignorance. I'll let you in on a secret. Once you are in residency and actually a practicing physician, no one really cares where you went to medical school. People are much more concerned whether you are competent or not.

Where you went to medical school is a representation of how good of a collegiate undergraduate student you were, not how good of a physician you will be.

.
I am a practicing physician...I don't know what planet you live on...Patients ask me ALL THE TIME where I want to school. Patients oftentimes ASSUME your level of competence based on where you went to school, at least initially. Whether it's justified or not is a subject for another discussion. Regular folk lack the necessary knowledge, training, or the insight to really judge a physician's level of competence. That's why state medical boards are not made up of carpenters, store clerks, programmers, police officers etc... they are made up of physicians
 
I am a practicing physician...I don't know what planet you live on...Patients ask me ALL THE TIME where I want to school. Patients oftentimes ASSUME your level of competence based on where you went to school, at least initially. Whether it's justified or not is a subject for another discussion. Regular folk lack the necessary knowledge, training, or the insight to really judge a physician's level of competence. That's why state medical boards are not made up of carpenters, store clerks, programmers, police officers etc... they are made up of physicians.

Well, I have asked ~20 practicing physicians this same question, and every single one of them has told me they could count on one hand the number of times a patient has asked them that (and most of these docs had been practicing for >10 years). And in the 2 years I have spent in the hospital, I have never once heard a patient ask a resident or attending that question.

But maybe you're right, and I will live the rest of my life in constant fear and shame, hoping that I don't have to tell someone I went to a caribbean medical school.

And this idea that patients assume level of competence on where you went to school is ridiculous. Not counting Harvard and Johns Hopkins, I doubt 98% of patients could name 10 medical schools, let alone tell you which schools are considered top-tier, mid-tier, etc.
 
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Well, I have asked ~20 practicing physicians this same question, and every single one of them has told me they could count on one hand the number of times a patient has asked them that (and most of these docs had been practicing for >10 years). And in the 2 years I have spent in the hospital, I have never once heard a patient ask a resident or attending that question.

But maybe you're right, and I will live the rest of my life in constant fear and shame, hoping that I don't have to tell someone I went to a caribbean medical school.

And this idea that patients assume level of competence on where you went to school is ridiculous. Not counting Harvard and Johns Hopkins, I doubt 98% of patients could name 10 medical schools, let alone tell you which schools are considered top-tier, mid-tier, etc..

Not only that, if you practice a hospital based specialty, you get who ever is on call. If the Harvard trained hospitalist isn't on call that night, then too bad, so sad, you get the other non-Harvard trained hospitalist.
 
Well, I have asked ~20 practicing physicians this same question, and every single one of them has told me they could count on one hand the number of times a patient has asked them that (and most of these docs had been practicing for >10 years). And in the 2 years I have spent in the hospital, I have never once heard a patient ask a resident or attending that question.

But maybe you're right, and I will live the rest of my life in constant fear and shame, hoping that I don't have to tell someone I went to a caribbean medical school.

And this idea that patients assume level of competence on where you went to school is ridiculous. Not counting Harvard and Johns Hopkins, I doubt 98% of patients could name 10 medical schools, let alone tell you which schools are considered top-tier, mid-tier, etc..

The fact that you've asked so many physicians this question speaks very loudly to your level of insecurity regarding its answer.

I am a third-year resident and I am asked this question not infrequently. These days, patients are becoming much more savvy, and particularly for services that are non-emergent, will absolutely tend to shop around. Plenty of patients won't, however, as evidenced by the numerous people who come and see me and think that the aesthetician they saw for their skin cancer was a board-certified dermatologist.
 
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The fact that you've asked so many physicians this question speaks very loudly to your level of insecurity regarding its answer.

Being informed about the realities of your situation does not imply insecurity, it implies foresight. I asked the majority of docs this question BEFORE I started school in the caribbean. You bet I wanted to know the answer to this question before I decided to invest a ton of time and money in going to the caribbean. Again, I wouldn't call this insecurity, I would call it making an informed decision
 
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Being informed about the realities of your situation does not imply insecurity, it implies foresight. I asked the majority of docs this question BEFORE I started school in the caribbean. You bet I wanted to know the answer to this question before I decided to invest a ton of time and money in going to the caribbean. Again, I wouldn't call this insecurity, I would call it making an informed decision



Lets just be honest with each other....you didnt ask 20 docs. You asked 3-4.


And, patients dont need to ask where you go to medical school anymore. Google has that answer, and hospitalized patients have nothing but time to kill.

I agree that its probably not a big deal, because most patients probably couldn't name 5 medical schools, but you are kidding yourself if you really think they aren't asking where you went or looking it up.
 
And as for caribbean failure stories...

The hospital I am currently rotating at has at least one nurse who used to be a Ross student. He never told me his story, and I am not going to prod, but I imagine he failed out.
 
There are so many carib students rotating in NYC because there is abundance of hospitals there that don't have any US medical students (or very few) rotating through them. There are 6 medical schools in NYC, 9 million people, and >40 hospitals. Caribs end up there for rotations because there are hospitals with residency programs, but no US medical students, so they have room for the caribs.

This is also the same reason so many IMGs end up in NYC for residency, just an overabundance of availability. There are ~40 internal medicine residency programs in NYC alone, most of which are in bad locations, in run down hospitals, and with difficult patient populations.

It makes total sense that US grads don't want to go there for residency, I don't want to be there either. But if it is between working in a difficult hospital for 3 years and then having your whole career ahead of you, or not matching and having nothing, you better believe I would choose the difficult hospital in NYC. Someone has to treat these patients, so that is why lots of IMGs end up there.
The trouble is, there actually isn't an over-abundance of rotation sites in NYC. Several medical schools want the rotation sites that SGU has, but they've paid tens of millions of dollars for them, something that medical schools traditionally do not do. The training of medical students is generally supposed to be something a hospital does pro bono, so medical schools in NYC simply can't compete with SGUs deep pockets when trying to secure training sites. "What'll you give us for your students to rotate here?" "Oh, we'll pay for the student facilities and maybe provide a small stipend for the teaching staff" certainly isn't going to win out over "We'll give you $100 million dollars."

There's a lot of corruption that goes into their securing of decent sites and residency positions, which results in fiascos like this one: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/nyregion/03conflict.html?_r=0
 
Being informed about the realities of your situation does not imply insecurity, it implies foresight. I asked the majority of docs this question BEFORE I started school in the caribbean. You bet I wanted to know the answer to this question before I decided to invest a ton of time and money in going to the caribbean. Again, I wouldn't call this insecurity, I would call it making an informed decision

right...:eyebrow:
 
This thread annoys me. The word Caribbean is spelled with one r, two b's, and is a proper noun. If one takes the time to spell it correctly, and judiciously combine it with other words like "medical", "debt", "fail", or others along this line in any search engine, one will be provided with hours of depressing reading material. The internets are awash with such. Beyond getting a glimpse of the perils of taking out loans to feed the for profit education industry, the stories usually play out in a number of of similar ways, and there isn't much to be learned by reading endless iterations.

What can be taken from such a sad foray into financially ruined lives is an awareness that offshore medical schools (along with a host of onshore for profit certificate schools) are private enterprises that take advantage of public funds, with questionable benefit to either the individual consumer or the taxpayer, and that this practice should be heavily scrutinized, and in many cases, severely limited.

As an American who intends to at some time return to the USA, attending medical school in another country makes sense iff (if and only if) you a) don't pay nearly as much as you would at a US med school, and b) you have a reasonably good chance of making back in the system to train and practice. There are a few people who have done this at little Caribbean schools with a low COA and other schools in the Americas, come to the US, and matched into FM, Psych, etc. and done pretty well for themselves. I salute these people. They are winners.

Some of the more prominent horror stories, like the "Southern Doc" guy, demonstrate a lot of hubris. At many times during his narrative, he writes about the lack of availability of funding, even from private lenders. This could be taken as a sign of a poor investment, both for them and for him. Although people such as this bear responsibility for their decision making, it is doubtful that the schools they attended presented the outcome of attendance as a 2/3 chance of graduating, 1 out of 4 chance of matching into a specialty of choice, and 50/50 chance of obtaining a residency at all in their promotional materials. *To the people who will want to dispute these figures: Yes, I made them up. They are a rough estimate I have compiled from googling "caribean failure stories", but I don't feel like they are that far off the mark.* The point is, the practice is very much on the borderline of being predatory.

Most of the really sad stories I have read seem to have come from the perspective of people who don't have much personal or inherited familiarity with higher education and are not well equipped to distinguish quality between different programs. In a larger sense it relates to the inequality of opportunity that Robert Putnam describes in his book "Our Kids", where he describes the situation where better life decisions are made by young people whose parents are able to remove a large proportion of the bad ones through their own experience with personal success.

In any case, the information is out there. Hopefully people will be able to take time to investigate the risks of pursuing a medical degree, and be able to make a realistic assessment of their relative chance of succeeding in all progressive stages of a very long process.
 
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What is it with medical people and writing in this pretentious and convoluted style, using words they don't have full command of? It's what I would expect from a college freshman, not somebody with a doctorate and 8 years of post-secondary education.
 
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What is it with medical people and writing in this pretentious and convoluted style, using words they don't have full command of? It's what I would expect from a college freshman, not somebody with a doctorate and 8 years of post-secondary education.

Yeah, I guess what I said was kind of wordy and not really all that important. Disregard it if you like. I don't think there's much new to learn here. You are right, it should read like this: A lot of people get burned by going offshore. It's worse for people without strong family support, but that's true of everything. Some regulation could help prevent some bad decisions and bloated student loan debt.

What initially "vexed" me about it (not that esoteric of a word) was the misspelling of Caribbean, it's just a pet peeve. Hubris is an overused word, but it describes the situation pretty well, if you read the blog. Iterations? Ya, could have used a different word. Sorry if it was hard to read, it was a long night, and I was rambling on.

If you were offended by something I wrote, I'm sorry. It's easy to come off as pretentious, I guess. I didn't mean to be. Mostly tired, that's all.
 
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This thread annoys me. The word Caribbean is spelled with one r, two b's, and is a proper noun.

.....

They are a rough estimate I have compiled from googling "caribean failure stories"


What initially "vexed" me about it (not that esoteric of a word) was the misspelling of Caribbean, it's just a pet peeve.

You may have gotten more Google hits if you had spelled it with one r and two b's.
 
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OMG

omg omg.


Maybe its just the med school goggles I'm looking thru, but I thought he was cute. Loved her dress, the lyrics, and production, but the singer was terrible. Like really terrible
 
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why is it the ivy kids that always do those stupid videos.
Why? It's all in good fun.

if nails on a chalkboard is fun, maybe

I could understand it if someone could actually sing, but the people that do this always have 0 musical talent and it's like why would you even think of doing this.
 
why is it the ivy kids that always do those stupid videos.


if nails on a chalkboard is fun, maybe

I could understand it if someone could actually sing, but the people that do this always have 0 musical talent and it's like why would you even think of doing this.
I agree the singing ruined what could have been a great video, and I'm sure Yale has multitalented people who can sing.
He's hot

Brb driving to new haven
Oh, good, thought it was just me. Yes, he is yummy!
 
You may have gotten more Google hits if you had spelled it with one r and two b's.
Indeed. My point exactly.

What I was getting at with the long winded diatribe is that the profit education model demonstrated by some of these has a tendency to paradoxically make it more difficult for people of lesser means to advance themselves through education. Superficially, it would seem like a greater amount of options exist, but when schools accept unprepared students and fail them out after they incur substantial debt, or provide them with an unmarketable product, this reduces the likelihood that they will ever pursue more education, and increases the chance that they will stay where they are. I am lumping Caribbean medical schools together with Corinthian and others that have come under fire lately, and perhaps that isn't fair. On the whole, the idea that a person can get ahead by being diligent in their education and working hard falls apart when they are left heavily indebted without any means to repay it. The idea of advancement through education is pretty central to our society, at least, it was reinforced for me when as I was growing up. I think that i is going to leave a generation of people bitter, disillusioned and trapped by debt. I think that it is a social catastrophe.

I still don't think that what I said previously was excessively convoluted, or too hard to understand. Then again, I'm post night, and sometimes the things I say only make sense to me. :)
 
I love how the most liked comment on that video is " this is so terrible"
 
Someone from the Caribbean schools should update us on this thread about how match day goes when it happens soon.
 
god those are annoying. they are always terrible and it's just like altogether awful.

Yale put out a great one last year, I thought. The vocalist on last year's was a lot more talented.

By the way, the significance of the horses would be what?
 
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Fascinating thread and thought I would offer my 0.02. I graduated from one of the big Caribbean schools in the early part of this decade and secured a residency spot at a good primary program without any Caribbean/almost no IMG graduates; therefore, I am likely an outlier in some regard and am giving a biased/personal/different perspective than the other horror stories.

I think the less-delusional students were seeing the writing on the wall in my class. By the time my class was already in 2nd year on the island it was plainly obvious that there were too many students as evidenced by the massive increase in size of the lower classes. The most laughably practical issue was that they were already above capacity for their lecture hall for the lower classes. They had to ask students to go to another lecture hall as "overflow" to watch the lectures via a Skype-like program on the big projector screen in real time. Luckily for my class we weren't at that size and for myself I was not much of a lecture-goer anyways. My classmates and I all still had the same baseline "Caribbean anxiety" for matching in the first place, but would self-soothe in that naturally defensive, schadenfreude manner as we watched class after class swell: "I'm so glad we're not trying to match in THAT class."

I am personally satisfied about my experience at a Caribbean school, but I wonder if I was on the tail-end of a bygone era. On the one hand, I landed a good residency spot in the only specialty I cared about (NOT a competitive speciality and I knew this going in) and have been enjoying excellent education, feeling very prepared for attending life. I also got to live on a beautiful island and NYC each for 2 years and have fantastic memories (luckily I didn't fall into the amnestic-producing EtOHic lifestyle that was evident with a minority of students and can remember my time there). I did feel my MS III/IV rotations were mixed, some excellent training and a few awful. Most were solid. The first 2 years I mostly self-taught from the same textbooks most US medical students were using anyways (culled from school websites and SDN). I would go to lectures when they had a visiting professor from a reputable, sometimes Ivy league medical school to see about additional insight. This was again a mixed bag of insight/usefulness. Overall I agree that medical school, once in, is motivation-dependent and the ones whom matched in a good spot you could have predicted early on in my class. In a way I think I tried to make my experience as "US med school-like" as possible and I wonder if I could have just stayed home and beefed up my US applications.

However, I do not think I could recommend it to others in the current state of affairs without considerable research and lowered expectations. Cons include as rightly expressed above, massive debt. This will take a lot of financial savvy for me to navigate, though it looks doable with some creative interventions. This alone, I agree, should dissuade all but the most highly motivated premed student from considering. I do at times wish I had even known about DO schools, which I didn't when applying. I did my research both on SDN and Value MD, talked with 2 Caribbean graduates in practice and made my choice as best informed as I could at the time.

Although things continue to change on a rolling basis at the Caribbean schools and residency spots tighten, my personal experience tells me that only the most highly motivated (i.e. wait listed at US med schools, post-bac, researching hard, self-informing, debt analyzing, MCAT 27-29) should even maybe maybe maybe consider. It makes little sense to think you'll get a good residency program UNLESS it's traditionally non-competitive. This is achieved only if you make learning the material an earnest endeavor AND become a better test-taker by forcing yourself to learn where you messed up on the MCAT (that was the hardest learning curve personally but doable with, you guessed it, research and motivation), get creative with elective rotations to maximize reputable attending exposure for weighty LORs, write a killer PS (this means dropping one's hubris and letting others critique it/say it's "killer"). Lastly you have to be honest with yourself, this is a risky endeavor. Some friends would apply to all specialties in anything with even a little surgery involved; the desperation levels were disheartening at times (100+ applications!). No thanks. Hope this helps at least one pre-med student make an informed decision.
 
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