Where do you think Chiropractic is going??

[doclm]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hello All,

I have a friend who is seriously considering going into a Chiropractic program, so I would like some input from someone with some good knowledge.

Where do you think Chiropractic is going in the future?? I understand that there is a push for research based medicine with chiropractic. National University recently had a large grant from the NIH for doing 4 years of evidence based chiropractic research. Also, I have heard that more people are turning to forms of alternative medicine.

If you are ignorant and want to just bash the profession, please do not respond to this thread. I am looking for some open minded advice from someone who actually knows something about Chiropractic Medicine and its stability as a future profession.

Thanks. 👍

 

[awdc]

Read the IAF report in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=192327

 

[PublicHealth]

No one can predict the future, but here's some info to get you started:

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/chiropractic/

http://clinicaltrials.gov/search/te...practic+therapy)+[TREATMENT]?recruiting=false

http://www.fcer.org/

http://www.chiro.org/main/

http://www.chiro.org/research/

http://www.acatoday.com/media/research/

Chiropractic research is just beginning to take form. Mixer approaches tend to be received more favorably by the public and are more likely to be scientifically supported. There are lots of quacks in the profession who ruin its reputation and credibility by thinking that practically every medical condition can be treated by spinal manipulation. If you have a sore throat, it does not always mean that you have a cervical subluxation and need to have your spine manipulated 3 times a week for a year.

Lately, there seems to be an increase in nutrition and alternative medicine approaches such as acupuncture and natural medicine among chiropractors. Increasing scope of practice is generally a good thing for chiropractic, as it will help ensure its viability as a healthcare profession.

Encourage your friend to shadow a bunch of chiropractors to get a feel for the profession. Oh, and ignore what Foughtfyr says -- he causes cerebral subluxations.

 

[611]

Definately have your friend look into National University. This forum is not exactly the best place to get objective information.

 

[PublicHealth]

Definately have your friend look into National University. This forum is not exactly the best place to get objective information.

Chiropractic schools:

http://www.amerchiro.org/media/whatis/careers/cce_accredited.shtml

 

[Scrub MD]

Here are some written by MDs, DCs, PhDs

http://www.chirobase.org/
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com

 

[FoughtFyr]

Oh, and ignore what Foughtfyr says -- he causes cerebral subluxations.

The only advice I have is simple. Realize that, despite what 611, jesse, and PublicHealth would have you believe, chiropractors are not generally well regarded within healthcare. Yes, there are exceptions, there are certainly MDs or DOs who have thrown their lot in with chiropractors, but on the whole they are not well regarded. This simple fact has been oft repeated by the chiropractors here (a good example is here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2689422#post2689422). So, if your friend is someone who is looking to be part of mainstream, commonly accepted healthcare, then chiropractic probably isn't for him/her.

Beyond that, the link awdc provided above is probably the best source for a look at the future of chiropractic.

As for me, I'm done beating my head against the wall. Heard of yet another fatal chiropractor mistake (internal carotid dissection in a 28 year old) that a friend of mine cared for. I just don't have the chops for this anymore. As OldmanDO said on the other thread "Darwin rules". Believe what you want PublicHealth, I hope, for both yours and your patients' sake, you never realize how wrong you are...

- H

 

[611]

The only advice I have is simple. Realize that, despite what 611, jesse, and PublicHealth would have you believe, chiropractors are not generally well regarded within healthcare. Yes, there are exceptions, there are certainly MDs or DOs who have thrown their lot in with chiropractors, but on the whole they are not well regarded. This simple fact has been oft repeated by the chiropractors here (a good example is here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2689422#post2689422). So, if your friend is someone who is looking to be part of mainstream, commonly accepted healthcare, then chiropractic probably isn't for him/her.

Beyond that, the link awdc provided above is probably the best source for a look at the future of chiropractic.

As for me, I'm done beating my head against the wall. Heard of yet another fatal chiropractor mistake (internal carotid dissection in a 28 year old) that a friend of mine cared for. I just don't have the chops for this anymore. As OldmanDO said on the other thread "Darwin rules". Believe what you want PublicHealth, I hope, for both yours and your patients' sake, you never realize how wrong you are...

- H

If I remember correctly, the original poster did not request responses that bash Chiropractic.

 

[FoughtFyr]

If I remember correctly, the original poster did not request responses that bash Chiropractic.

Here is what I don't get - since when is being truthful "bashing" anything? If I state that Muslims, upset about a cartoon, have burned an embassy, am I "bashing" Islam? Or is it that you are embarrassed by the actions of your profession?

Besides, if you read my post carefully, you'll see that I do answer the OPs question. I state what is, in my opinion, backed by posts here from chiropractors, a serious drawback for some people entering chiropractic. I also state that Awdc has posted a link to a thread started by PublicHeath that I agree contains a decent report that addresses the OP's question directly.

But feel free to turn the clinician's forum into www,prochiro,com. I no longer care to debate this with you or anyone else. As far as I am concerned, it is "caveat emptor" and let Darwin rule the day.

Cheers,

- H

 

[611]

"open minded advice"

 

[jesse14]

The only advice I have is simple. Realize that, despite what 611, jesse, and PublicHealth would have you believe, chiropractors are not generally well regarded within healthcare.

I'm sorry, what would i have this person believe?? I didn't post anything on this thread..did I???? you assume i'll tell this individual that chiropractic is great and anyone who wants to should jump into it? That's not my intention at all. As you and I have disucused in the past, i simply believe chiropractic works for musculoskeletal pain, you do not and i respect that. I have NEVER bashed medicine at all because i believe it is needed very much in health care so i'm not "one of those" quack people. I actully like the fact that you research at great lengths for your information. I rather here justified criticism than meaningless praises for the profession. You have made some things very clear to me that wern't apparent before, but i still stand my by belief in it's ability to help people in pain.

As for the question posted: I feel chiropractic has its benifits and draw backs. It is a heavily scrutinized profession and DC's face a lot of adversity from MD's. But i feel you must ask yourself... after all this fighting and aligation against it, why do 11 million canadians (im a canadian) seek chiropractic every year? I, for one give people credit, and believe people wouldn't continue to go if they didn't find it worthwhile to do so. Now, with that said, it's NOT, and i stress NOT an easy road to take. Developing a small business in any feild is hard and chiro is most definatley no exception. I think you must ask your friend why they are persuing this feild and if it's for money or the right to use the tital "doctor" you should tell your friend he/she is making a huge mistake. If it's to help people in pain and they believe chiropractic can accomplish this then i say they are making a solid internal decision. Your friend should go to a DC and see what they can do for hm/her and i believe that will tell them a lot about the profession. Best of luck!

 

[doclm]

I want to thank all of you for giving me some good info on this. Now that I see what everyone thinks, I am more weary of having my friend go down that path. She almost has a psyc degree from a state college and wants to transfer to National University of Health Sciences for their Biomedical Science program, which would give her the prereqs for any form of medical school. If she wanted to do Chiro, she could get grandfathered into the program after a year with a total of 125 credits. However, I am not sure if she should go do this?

I am thinking of having her go and get more prereqs/take the MCAT/ and go from there.

Do you think that regular medical schools MD/DO would have a problem if she got her prereqs and Biomedical Science degree from National University of Health Sciences? Since the classes are accelerated into trimesters and it is a private Chiro/ Naturopath/ Accupunture school. This would be a great opportunity for her to get all of the prereqs at once in a atmosphere that would mimick a mini medical school curriculm.

Also, I hear that National University has a fMRI for the chiro students to use on a daily basis. Does any of you believe that there will be any compelling data in favor of Chiro's coming out of the research in the next four years at National University?

Again thanks for your input 👍

 

[FoughtFyr]

Do you think that regular medical schools MD/DO would have a problem if she got her prereqs and Biomedical Science degree from National University of Health Sciences?

No, most would accept the coursework. National is an accredited college. The AMCAS GPA calculation would include coursework done there, and this is, at base, what most adcoms use.

This would be a great opportunity for her to get all of the prereqs at once in a atmosphere that would mimick a mini medical school curriculm.

If she is doing this to "mimic" a "mini-medical school curriculum", I would suggest one of the medical school affiliated post-bacc/special master's programs for two reasons. First, I think she would have a "hard sell" convincing any adcom member that the coursework at National was, in fact, arduous and similar to medical school. I'm not arguing that it is or is not, but speaking as a former adcom interviewer, my colleagues and I would likely laugh out loud if this supposition were made during an interview. This is not only born of the animus which generally exists between allopathic medicine and chiropractic but also from the well published and well publicized fact that the entrance standards for chiropractic college are far less than those of medical school. Second, if the coursework is as difficult (again, I don't know if it is or is not), then she deserves the consideration for completing it she would get if she attended a medical school affiliated post bacc (most have some sort of admissions preference for those who excel during the program). It boils down to the eventual goal. If she is trying to go chiro, or natropath, then go to National. If she is trying to go MD/DO then the post bacc at Roselind or Loyola or a Master's from UIC will likely serve her better.

Does any of you believe that there will be any compelling data in favor of Chiro's coming out of the research in the next four years at National University?

Nope. Given that there has been none to date, I don't see an MRI making the difference. But that is only my opinion.

- H

 

[611]

If her intent is to go elsewhere I would not do the post bac. work at National although she would be well prepared for anything in the health field there may be some prejudice out there and I would hate to see her waste her time.

 

[FoughtFyr]

If her intent is to go elsewhere I would not do the post bac. work at National although she would be well prepared for anything in the health field there may be some prejudice out there and I would hate to see her waste her time.

Gosh... for the first time we fully agree. {***wiping a tear from my eye***}

It's beautiful...

😍

- H

 

[Osteotome]

What makes me laugh is how niave some people can be. What do you or your friend care if being a chiropractor is not well recieved by the medical (MD) community. As you go through your training the entire process is one big pissing contest amoung MD/DO/DPM/RN whatever, everyone ****s on everyone and the stuff flows downhill, that is the essence of the ego that exists at teaching institutions! Once you are done, do you really think that any MD or chiropractor out in practice has that much if any input with each other and really gives a damn what the other thinks, give me a break grow up. If your friend wants to do it, then do it, if they don't, don't. To go into something for money is not a good idea, you will end up hating your profession and untimatley be unhappy because making 70 grand and not liking your profession is a lot diferrent than making 4 million and hating your profession.
As far as the state of the profession, look at it this way (I'm speaking from a person waiting to match into orthopedics). A chiropractor is a nitch profession. In the U.S. we have some truely fat people who are always going to have chronic back pain, why? because they are fat (sorry to bust bubbles but it's true), an overweight man with a negative XRAY and MRI (sure he will have DJD and some minor disc buldge that he thinks is the cause of his problems when it is nothing of the sort) the MD community at least surgical community is not going to do anything with. Does this mean the person doesn't have pain, no not at all, but aside from NSAID, PT and maybe some flexeril there is nothing you are gona do. Chronic narcotics at 40 years old is not a solution. And once you open up a persons back forget it that's a whole nother back of worms. So what do the MD's say to do "lose weight". For most people this is tuff, so they will always seek another opinion. And for what it is worth, if some massaje and a little manipulation works to releive their pain, it works for that person, end of story the pain is gone, wonderful your patient is better and you are experiencing why you went into healthcare! If you consider how many visits to a pimary care doctor and then orthopedist occur everyday in this country for back pain, there will always be work for the chiropractor. Now reembercments from medicare/medicaid/ and private ensurers may decline but welcome to the club! But don't dwell on the idiotic notion that since the practice is now becoming more evidence based with this and that nonsense research, that it will make it somehow more respected, it will not. Evidence based reserach is something that exists in teaching institutions for the most part and in the real world no one gives much of a damn because evidence based research typically leaves us with more questions that it solves.

 

[doclm]

If her intent is to go elsewhere I would not do the post bac. work at National although she would be well prepared for anything in the health field there may be some prejudice out there and I would hate to see her waste her time.

She does not have her Bac yet, and this Biomedical science program would just fulfill med school requirements and grant a B.S., while credits are transferred back to the old school to complete the elective credits for a psyc degree.

I was just wondering if going to National Univerisity would be just as good as getting those prereqs from anywhere else.

Thanks.

 

[611]

She does not have her Bac yet, and this Biomedical science program would just fulfill med school requirements and grant a B.S., while credits are transferred back to the old school to complete the elective credits for a psyc degree.

I was just wondering if going to National Univerisity would be just as good as getting those prereqs from anywhere else.

Thanks.

I still think that unless she is going to attend Chiro School it would be best to take her prereq's elsewhere

 

[chirodoc]

Where it's always headed...in circles.

Look, I like Foughfyr and he's a great resource for data...I think that would be a great nickname for him like on Star Trek...Data. 🙂

But for a first hand account go to the chirotalk forum and be prepared it is VERY anti chiro but it's mostly so from actual chiro's so it's gospel as far as I'm concerned. I am a practicing chiro and I would STRONGLY urge anyone considering chiropractic to really think why they would spend $60-150K on a marginal career as a 'tolerated', not accepted (as FoughtFyr points out), healthcare practioner. The DPT will over shadow chiropractic in years to come and will be manipulating (as if they don't already) with the backing of the medical community and as EB practioners. Becoming EB is contrary to the business model of chiropractic so that stuff at National really won't change anything. 🙄

From what I now know and have seen most chiro students are looking for an easier way to become a healthcare professional. They aren't necessarily flunkies too stupid for med school but rather, a little lazier than the average .....insert any other doctoral candidate here. Start by telling them to seriously look at ALL the other options out there, if most did I don't think they would have become D.C.'s.

I sent this to a friend just kidding about my alma mater but It's all true and I'm sure applicable to every chiro school out there. It's a stereotype in jest but the message is clear:

I've thought about the warning signs of chiro college and came up with this.

1. If your chiro school is sandwiched between the strip club and condoms to go...you'd better find a new school.
2. If your academic dean is teaching human anatomy but works on animals instead...you'd better find a new school.
3. If ALL your M.D. instructors would rather earn $50K teaching v.s. $150K practicing...you'd better find a new school.
4. If the founder of your Natural Health school dies after bypass surgery and edarterectomy...you'd better find a new school.
5. If the entrance exam to your school has 'FAFSA' written across the first page...you'd better find a new school.
6. If your school teaches 9 techniques in case the other '8' don't work...you'd better find a new school.
7. If the guy running the snack bar at your school makes more money than any of the graduates...you'd better find a new school.
8. If your teacher is teaching under court order b/c your school dismissed him while covering up a sexual harrassement lawsuit...you'd better find a new school.
(http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/5th/0110219cv0.html )
9. If your schools founder has to sue his own attorney...you'd better find a new school. (I think he might be the ethics teacher's relative...not sure..same name)
(http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/15/10/16.html)
10. If your peers are stupid enough to treat James Randi (internationally known myth skeptic) and talk subluxation...you'd better find a new profession.
👎

All I'm saying is unless they have a 'love' fascination with chiropractic it is NOT a logical career choice. If they are looking for a good profession and they decided on chiropractic they simply have not done their homework and are believing the positive spin that's out there. Sure there are financially successful chiro's who work very little...is that the real measure of success...work as little as possible for the most money. Then become a bank robber...not that different from robbing insurance companies, medicaid, medicare and the general public with unproven, over utilized treatments with little to no evidence to substantiate their benefit. 😱

 

[jesse14]

Where it's always headed...in circles.

Look, I like Foughfyr and he's a great resource for data...I think that would be a great nickname for him like on Star Trek...Data. 🙂

But for a first hand account go to the chirotalk forum and be prepared it is VERY anti chiro but it's mostly so from actual chiro's so it's gospel as far as I'm concerned. I am a practicing chiro and I would STRONGLY urge anyone considering chiropractic to really think why they would spend $60-150K on a marginal career as a 'tolerated', not accepted (as FoughtFyr points out), healthcare practioner. The DPT will over shadow chiropractic in years to come and will be manipulating (as if they don't already) with the backing of the medical community and as EB practioners. Becoming EB is contrary to the business model of chiropractic so that stuff at National really won't change anything. 🙄

From what I now know and have seen most chiro students are looking for an easier way to become a healthcare professional. They aren't necessarily flunkies too stupid for med school but rather, a little lazier than the average .....insert any other doctoral candidate here. Start by telling them to seriously look at ALL the other options out there, if most did I don't think they would have become D.C.'s.

I sent this to a friend just kidding about my alma mater but It's all true and I'm sure applicable to every chiro school out there. It's a stereotype in jest but the message is clear:

I've thought about the warning signs of chiro college and came up with this.

1. If your chiro school is sandwiched between the strip club and condoms to go...you'd better find a new school.
2. If your academic dean is teaching human anatomy but works on animals instead...you'd better find a new school.
3. If ALL your M.D. instructors would rather earn $50K teaching v.s. $150K practicing...you'd better find a new school.
4. If the founder of your Natural Health school dies after bypass surgery and edarterectomy...you'd better find a new school.
5. If the entrance exam to your school has 'FAFSA' written across the first page...you'd better find a new school.
6. If your school teaches 9 techniques in case the other '8' don't work...you'd better find a new school.
7. If the guy running the snack bar at your school makes more money than any of the graduates...you'd better find a new school.
8. If your teacher is teaching under court order b/c your school dismissed him while covering up a sexual harrassement lawsuit...you'd better find a new school.
(http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/5th/0110219cv0.html )
9. If your schools founder has to sue his own attorney...you'd better find a new school. (I think he might be the ethics teacher's relative...not sure..same name)
(http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/15/10/16.html)
10. If your peers are stupid enough to treat James Randi (internationally known myth skeptic) and talk subluxation...you'd better find a new profession.
👎

All I'm saying is unless they have a 'love' fascination with chiropractic it is NOT a logical career choice. If they are looking for a good profession and they decided on chiropractic they simply have not done their homework and are believing the positive spin that's out there. Sure there are financially successful chiro's who work very little...is that the real measure of success...work as little as possible for the most money. Then become a bank robber...not that different from robbing insurance companies, medicaid, medicare and the general public with unproven, over utilized treatments with little to no evidence to substantiate their benefit. 😱

I'm just wondering chirdoc,
how do you go into work everyday hating and not believing in what it is you provide? Don't you feel like a scam artest or a liar when you tell patients they need to come back to your office but you feel that what you do really has no impact on their health??
I feel sorry for you doctor

 

[doclm]

Where it's always headed...in circles.

Look, I like Foughfyr and he's a great resource for data...I think that would be a great nickname for him like on Star Trek...Data. 🙂

But for a first hand account go to the chirotalk forum and be prepared it is VERY anti chiro but it's mostly so from actual chiro's so it's gospel as far as I'm concerned. I am a practicing chiro and I would STRONGLY urge anyone considering chiropractic to really think why they would spend $60-150K on a marginal career as a 'tolerated', not accepted (as FoughtFyr points out), healthcare practioner. The DPT will over shadow chiropractic in years to come and will be manipulating (as if they don't already) with the backing of the medical community and as EB practioners. Becoming EB is contrary to the business model of chiropractic so that stuff at National really won't change anything. 🙄

From what I now know and have seen most chiro students are looking for an easier way to become a healthcare professional. They aren't necessarily flunkies too stupid for med school but rather, a little lazier than the average .....insert any other doctoral candidate here. Start by telling them to seriously look at ALL the other options out there, if most did I don't think they would have become D.C.'s.

I sent this to a friend just kidding about my alma mater but It's all true and I'm sure applicable to every chiro school out there. It's a stereotype in jest but the message is clear:

I've thought about the warning signs of chiro college and came up with this.

1. If your chiro school is sandwiched between the strip club and condoms to go...you'd better find a new school.
2. If your academic dean is teaching human anatomy but works on animals instead...you'd better find a new school.
3. If ALL your M.D. instructors would rather earn $50K teaching v.s. $150K practicing...you'd better find a new school.
4. If the founder of your Natural Health school dies after bypass surgery and edarterectomy...you'd better find a new school.
5. If the entrance exam to your school has 'FAFSA' written across the first page...you'd better find a new school.
6. If your school teaches 9 techniques in case the other '8' don't work...you'd better find a new school.
7. If the guy running the snack bar at your school makes more money than any of the graduates...you'd better find a new school.
8. If your teacher is teaching under court order b/c your school dismissed him while covering up a sexual harrassement lawsuit...you'd better find a new school.
(http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/5th/0110219cv0.html )
9. If your schools founder has to sue his own attorney...you'd better find a new school. (I think he might be the ethics teacher's relative...not sure..same name)
(http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/15/10/16.html)
10. If your peers are stupid enough to treat James Randi (internationally known myth skeptic) and talk subluxation...you'd better find a new profession.
👎

All I'm saying is unless they have a 'love' fascination with chiropractic it is NOT a logical career choice. If they are looking for a good profession and they decided on chiropractic they simply have not done their homework and are believing the positive spin that's out there. Sure there are financially successful chiro's who work very little...is that the real measure of success...work as little as possible for the most money. Then become a bank robber...not that different from robbing insurance companies, medicaid, medicare and the general public with unproven, over utilized treatments with little to no evidence to substantiate their benefit. 😱

That is hillarious

What school did you go to?

You must really not believe in your career choice.

Anyway, thanks for your advice.

 

[M203]

I agree with chirodoc that there is a significant number of students going into chiro because it is an easier way to become a health professional. I did notice while I went to chiro school, how many students did not care about the basic sciences and medical diagnostic classes because they would say that they are not needed to practice. A lot of old tests passing around to take tests and a lot of paying for patients to come to clinic for a visit. I am not generalizing here but I have to say that this happen alot. There were a few students that were genuinely interested in the profession and ethically worked to go through school. I did not do my homework when it came to applying to chiro school. I would have rather gone into something else which I am trying now.
Chiropractic is about business. If you dont like to deal with selling your services and going around malls and health fairs trying to recruit patients, then dont do it. You got to love this profession to go into it. It takes many years of risky business moves and no money coming in to make it. Working as an associate (which most grads do unless they got money to start a practice) is terrible. I had the experience in working as an associate and I hated most of it. You get paid little and go out to do marketing. Even though you are a licensed chiro, you have to go by what the owner of the practice says to do. Like deciding how often to see a patient or discharging them. If i determine that they no longer need chiro care, the senior chiro would override your decision and make more appointments for the patients with no substantiation of the reason to do so. The lack of evidence for care makes me hate the practice of this profession. But there are obvious benefits to spinal manipulation. I think that chiropractic can be used as a tool for a health provider, but it should not be a whole profession. One is pressured to sell other services that one is not trained or are not well researched like supplements, "natural" remedies, weird and unethical management practices to make it.

 

[guetzow]

Why go to a chir, when you can get manipulated and get your drugs from a DO?