Where will new DO schools be opening and when?

[theDr.]

I heard Toro was thinking of school in the NY city area? Are there any other DO schools opening in the NY area? Or any other place. Thanks

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[box29]

I think you should look at TOURO's website! You would find all the info about TOURO University College of Osteopathic Medicine.
The Mare Island Campus which is established and the upcoming LAS VEGAS campus which will open this fall. They have been interviewing for the new campus since December 17th, 2003. I have not heard anything about TOURO opening an osteopathic medical school in NY. You should direct your question to TUCOM students or administration.

I highly suggest you do ALOT of research about the schools by going to AACOMAS website and look at the Medical Schools Listings.

 

[theDr.]

Thanks...sorry about the spelling..my fault. I was just curious.

 

[box29]

No problem...good luck with your apps.

 

[Dr JPH]

PCOM branching to Atlanta, Georgia.

Look in 2 years.

 

[texdrake]

I don't know if I could handle medical school in Vegas. It would BET it would be distracting. On the other hand I bet the ER's and Psych wards would be FULL HOUSES.......okay I will stop.

 

[box29]

I guess I should say that it is now in Henderson, a suburb of Vegas...not too far, about 15 min I guess. The TUCOM students should know.

 

[Buck Strong]

Yo Yo Yo...I'm looking to open a couple of DO franchises in Topeka and Jersey City...what do ya'll think? I just need some more capital to get my project off the ground. After that, I want to start an internet DO program, so that you can get your degree online, and be practicing in no time. Drop me a PM or something if you wanna invest in my vision...Peace.





"They shoulda neva gave you ni***s money!"

 

[fullefect1]

I kinda wish someone would consider opening up a school in Rhode Island. The only school I can think in that area is Brown, and Brown is filled with mostly Brown Undergrads, or the Dartmouth-Brown program. Rhode Island would be a great place to have a Osteopathic School.

 

[amoxicillin]

I say CT!!!!

 

[Chrisobean]

i think its great that all these schools are opening. but i also think its weird that schools open branch campuses SO FAR AWAY from the main one. not to bash the idea, but it just seems a little silly to me that the students say they go to Lake Erie when they are in florida.
does anyone know the reason behind this? i mean, if the school is so far away why isn't it an independent school? im just curious...

 

[ornis4]

Originally posted by amoxicillin
I say CT!!!!

Yes! With in-state tuition!

 

[DORoe]

i think its great that all these schools are opening. but i also think its weird that schools open branch campuses SO FAR AWAY from the main one. not to bash the idea, but it just seems a little silly to me that the students say they go to Lake Erie when they are in florida.

I would think that it has something to do with capital. Established DO schools have the cashflow needed to start up the school. Plus, why would you open up another location in the same area? Would it make sense to build another MCDonalds across the street from the one you already own? Going far away allows the schools to reach an entirely different subset of people. There may be some people that really like LECOM, but live in Fl, GA, SC, etc, so they would choose NSUCOM instead because it is closer. In addition establishing another school allows the new school to have some of the prestige that the parent school has already established. It makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Chrisobean]

Originally posted by DORoe
I would think that it has something to do with capital. Established DO schools have the cashflow needed to start up the school. Plus, why would you open up another location in the same area? Would it make sense to build another MCDonalds across the street from the one you already own? Going far away allows the schools to reach an entirely different subset of people. There may be some people that really like LECOM, but live in Fl, GA, SC, etc, so they would choose NSUCOM instead because it is closer. In addition establishing another school allows the new school to have some of the prestige that the parent school has already established. It makes a lot of sense to me.

i see your point... yeah it makes alot of sense.
but where i live we DO have mcdonalds across the street from each other, and a starbucks on every block...
i was just thinking in terms of the SUNY's i guess, which have alot of campuses all over the state. i wouldnt expect PCOM to open another campus in philly, but pittsburg would make more sense to me than georgia.. but thats in my warped mind.
im just glad they are opening more schools, period!

 

[MeowMix]

It is no accident that these schools are opening branch campuses in the balmy climates of Florida and Las Vegas instead of Montana and Wyoming, which don't have any med schools at all. Yeah, so the population density is higher, but let's be serious, this is starting to make DO schools sound like DeVry or the University of Phoenix. I think it devalues the degree.

 

[theringworm]

One of my co-workers has been offered a job at the Las Vegas school teaching physiology. He is a really cool guy and very intelligent. I can only hope my phys. professor is as cool. He has until this weekend to send a LOI. I am trying to talk him into it. I mean come on, it's Vegas. He'll go I am sure.

 

[Chrisobean]

Originally posted by MeowMix
It is no accident that these schools are opening branch campuses in the balmy climates of Florida and Las Vegas instead of Montana and Wyoming, which don't have any med schools at all. Yeah, so the population density is higher, but let's be serious, this is starting to make DO schools sound like DeVry or the University of Phoenix. I think it devalues the degree.

i agree to some extent. i woudnt necessarily say it devalues the degree, becuase simply opening another school is good for public awareness. but i dont think florida or georgia needs another med school when there are plenty of states with none or one. the places w/o med schools are probably also the places who are vastly underserved by the medical community, and who would benefit more from doctors training (and hopefully staying) there.

 

[GoForIt]

Originally posted by MeowMix
It is no accident that these schools are opening branch campuses in the balmy climates of Florida and Las Vegas instead of Montana and Wyoming, which don't have any med schools at all. Yeah, so the population density is higher, but let's be serious, this is starting to make DO schools sound like DeVry or the University of Phoenix. I think it devalues the degree.

I agree. Hope that AOA works with governments in the NorthWest, and areas which don't have any med schools to start COM in their respective state Universities. That would attract some of the most qualified students to attend school there. Because it's state owned, you can be assured that it won't be a fly by night institution.

 

[Buck Strong]

Originally posted by MeowMix
this is starting to make DO schools sound like DeVry or the University of Phoenix. I think it devalues the degree.

What I'm wondering is where they'll get the staff to teach this stuff. I mean, most of my profs have been around forever...unless you're going to start pulling docs from other med schools to teach this jawn...how are you going to be a competitive program with a bunch of new profs???

Don't get me wrong, i'm not anti DO or against training more docs. I know there is a bit of a shortage in certain fields and certain locations, which is why we let tons of foreign docs in...and I'd rather us train more US docs than have to import them, but I think there's gotta be a better way than opening DO schools around every corner...maybe expand the class size of all the existing schools, which I know my med school has been doing over the past couple of years.

 

[subtlewonder]

q

 

[YoungFaithful]

IT is not the location which makes the school bad or good, it is the fact that an established school is going to more or less split its teaching resources. This takes away from the original school by taking a few of the best teachers and making them deans at the new school.

I agree it is important to make DOism more prevalent in this society, and establishing more schools is one way to do this (there are much better ways of doing this by improving resources already in place)...as long as its not thought of in the same way as starting a porn shop down the street on the corner, where young adolescent boys can hang out.

 

[MacGyver]

Come on guys... DOs maybe have 90% of the status perception of an MD. You guys make it sound like all DOs struggle to make a living. Thats BS, they make almost the same money as an MD, and the only reason thats so is because they choose primary care more often which means lower salaries.

Do you really think that extra 10% in status prestige is worth a hefty paycut? Do you really think having more DOs on "ER" is worth making 20k less per year. Because thats the tradeoff of opening more DO schools. You would have to open up at least 30 of them to come anywhere close to the numbers of MDs produced.

 

[Echinoidea]

yeah, i have to agree with MacGyver on this one. As much as I'd love to see the public perception of DOs increase, all of these new schools scheduled to open is giving me the jitters. I just don't see how we can continue to open more and more osteopathic schools without some drop in the competitiveness of the applicants. And thats important - medical school should be hard to get into. Its not a job that just anyone with the motivation to take the MCAT can do. I know people with pretty sad MCAT scores that still got admitted to DO programs, and honestly, it bothers me. (especially because they felt they were too good to go to a DO school before the scores came in.)

We're walking a fine line here. Yes, we may increase the numbers of DOs and the public knowledge, or we may become devalued and the 'Devry' of medicine.

 

[subtlewonder]

q

 

[MacGyver]

Originally posted by subtlewonder
I think the AOA realizes that there is a demand for both primary care physicians and rural physicians in general...the medical system in the united states is tightly regulated to ensure that an oversupply of doctors does not occur....this may one day make it harder for new foreign graduates to practice in the US, but american graduates will not have a problem. So don't worry, you won't be taking a pay cut. As long as people keep having sex, doctors will be needed.

Thats a totally naive and overly simplistic view.

To create a number of DOs in this nation roughly comparable to MDs, you'd have to double the DO population. Do you really think that will have no effect on wages and competition?

The big cities are already crowded enough iwth docs. The ONLY med schools that should be created in the future are those designed SPECIFICALLY to produce rural doctors. How is a new DO school in ****ing Las Vegas going to do that?

 

[subtlewonder]

q

 

[YoungFaithful]

I'm glad this thread is going in the right direction...

 

[bigmuny]

Originally posted by subtlewonder
I have news for you...Nevada is about as rural as it gets...Las Vegas/Henderson is one of the fastest growing areas in the United States, but there are not enough doctors to serve that area. You obviously know nothing about Nevada or its situation. Lots of people who will attend that school will be from the Western States and will most likely stay there (There is no state tax, housing is cheap, weather is good). It seems like you are more concerned with how much money you will specifically make as a doctor as opposed to the people who will benefit from the added medical services in that area.

This might have some merit if Touro was actually bringing medical services to the area, but they are not. students will spend 2 years there, then mostly go elsewhere for rotations, and then go home for residency and practice. Touro is not openning up a medical center there(or even a measly free health clinic). as an aside, i know 2 docs docs who relocated to nevada(good financial opportunity). In regards to worrying about finances, we should all be worried. our education is a 200K investment, in addition to the years of sweat and hard work. when all is said and done you will be paying something like 500K in loans back(after interest). that is serious business, and you should be worried about protecting you and your future families livelihood.

 

[subtlewonder]

q

 

[DSM]

I've often wondered how people who have never been to a school can make accurate statements regarding that particular school. Every school that is on this board was once A NEW SCHOOL, including that ivy league schools. If you don't want to take a chance on a new school then don't! But for those who do, let those who know something about the situation give their input and if you are not one of those folks, then what do you really have to say????

 

[bgreet]

deepsouthmedic: Well the primary reason is that the opening of these schools is not an isolated incident. By opening up two or three more schools, the impact is felt all around the osteopathic community. As stated before, degrees become less valued. The main point being that student a and student b apply to two different do schools. Student A attends a very easy diploma mill school, while student b works very hard to achieve his diploma. When looked upon by others student a=b even though student a did not deserve his doctorate. It's a scary situation. What would rectify most of the qualms about this would be if aacom took a more active role in updating the progression of these schools and what its intentions are of making sure that there is a minimum set of entrance requirements that seem to be universal throughout the osteopathic schools currently, such as mcat and gpa. If these schools are properly looked after and monitored then there will be a minimal amount of problems, however if the true intention of these schools ends up to be money, then the way of the doctor will soon become the way of the lawyer.

 

[subtlewonder]

q

 

[bigmuny]

Go into medicine because you love it, and stop worrying how much more you'll make than others. Sometimes I wonder how many people would genuinely want to become doctors if medical school was cheap and doctors made average salaries. [/B][/QUOTE]

Loving medicine and protecting your future are not mutually exclusive. It is not about worrying about how much more you'll make than others, it is about worrying about making enough to take care of your family and justify the time and expense of all of this. We will be looking at 2K a month loan repayment, and i got news for you if you are making 90K a year you are going to find it pretty tough going in most parts of the country(of course you can keep living in the 1br, driving the 10 year old car, and little suzy probably don't want piano lessons anyway...)

 

[subtlewonder]

q

 

[hossofadoc]

Big muny- I have found that if you are an excellent doc then you will never have money problems. So, the solution to your problem is, become an excellent physician and you won't have to worry about money or you could just move to a rural area and still make a great salary as an average doc.

 

[DSM]

Originally posted by bgreet
deepsouthmedic: Well the primary reason is that the opening of these schools is not an isolated incident. By opening up two or three more schools, the impact is felt all around the osteopathic community. As stated before, degrees become less valued. The main point being that student a and student b apply to two different do schools. Student A attends a very easy diploma mill school, while student b works very hard to achieve his diploma. When looked upon by others student a=b even though student a did not deserve his doctorate. It's a scary situation. What would rectify most of the qualms about this would be if aacom took a more active role in updating the progression of these schools and what its intentions are of making sure that there is a minimum set of entrance requirements that seem to be universal throughout the osteopathic schools currently, such as mcat and gpa. If these schools are properly looked after and monitored then there will be a minimal amount of problems, however if the true intention of these schools ends up to be money, then the way of the doctor will soon become the way of the lawyer.

I can't help but feel that all the naysayers of new schools are already in Medical school.

So we do not need more DO's?

There are no DO schools close to me. The one if Florida is the closest of all of them. I was considering MD only until that one opened up. So not all people who apply to the new schools are rejects from the others. BTW I plan to return to Mississippi to practice. I am sure most of you would agree that there are many rural and underserved areas in Mississippi.

How do you know that these new schools are diploma mill schools? ALL schools are run to make a profit. Even the public ones. If they are not finanacially successful then they cease to exist. I am not some teenager with stars in my eyes. I am 41 years old and I know how the system works. Harvard and Yale are in it for the money too. My universtiy that I am currently attending is a public one but MONEY rules the game. Don't delude yourself into thinkng otherwise.

I will become a physician one way or the other. I will get into a school whether a new one or an established one. I do not care one way or the other. I do want it tobe a good school but I do not care if it is a new school or not. All schools have to meet guidelines. Just like all students have to pass the SAME boards regardless of their entrance stats. If they don't pass, they don't function.

I hope to get into LECOM south this year and I will make a fine doctorl, thank you very much.

 

[Chrisobean]

Originally posted by Echinoidea
And thats important - medical school should be hard to get into. Its not a job that just anyone with the motivation to take the MCAT can do. I know people with pretty sad MCAT scores that still got admitted to DO programs, and honestly, it bothers me. (especially because they felt they were too good to go to a DO school before the scores came in.)

im not totally disagreeing with you, but just want to make a point. go ask any established doctor what they scored on the mcat. i bet most didnt even break 20. the cheif of geriatrics at einstein/jacobi/montefiore got an 11. he's doing pretty dam well for himself. granted, he went to med school (not sure which one, maybe umich?) probably almost 20 years ago... but still. it amazes me how an 11 was considered a competetive score.

 

[bigmuny]

Originally posted by hossofadoc
Big muny- I have found that if you are an excellent doc then you will never have money problems. So, the solution to your problem is, become an excellent physician and you won't have to worry about money or you could just move to a rural area and still make a great salary as an average doc.

The just be "be all you can be" sentiment is very nice, unfortunately it is also naive, false, and does not address the global issue we are all facing. For the record, most of the best docs are in academics and on the low end of the earning curve. Additionally, some of the worst(but personable) docs make huge amounts of money and are well liked by their patients(patients don't know good care, they just know they like their doc). Your ability to make money in medicine is largely dependent on your choice of specialty, hard work, location, and business sense. Additionally, it is this attitude by docs that has gotten us to where we are right now. Health care is a huge business, and if docs don't take care their business somebody will take care of it for them(insurance companies and lawyers) as has already happened because we have been asleep at the wheel. It is correct that the golden days are over, but if we don't fight for what we have, our incomes will continue to erode. It is amazing, only in medicine are people ashamed to fight for a good living. Can you imagine a buch of pilots or lawyers sitting around quietly taking a huge pay cut?

 

[bgreet]

Just to clarify things, im NOT saying that these new schools WILL be diploma mills, I'm just saying theoretically if they do become such what could happen. I'm being cynical here, and I'm not saying that this is definantly what is to become of these schools. For all I know, they could become the next harvards of osteopathic medicine.

**Edit: And just add, deepsouthmedic I never once insinuated you would not become a good doctor. My post was not meant as a personal attack, or an attack at all in that matter, it was just presented to show the other side of things. And by the way I am not in medical school right now, I'm at the application process at the moment and these kinds of things way heavily into the big debate of DO/MD. I love DO medicine for what it stands for, but realistically things like this make me question what I really will do.

 

[jamdo]

people who live in Wyoming or Idaho thats who. BTW, have you ever been there? Maybe if you gave it a legitamate shot, you might like it. Med school isnt about location per se either, its about training. Im from So California and actually went out of state away from the sunshine and got a first rate education. Heaven forbid it wasnt in a sunny place!!!

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by Chrisobean
go ask any established doctor what they scored on the mcat. i bet most didnt even break 20. the cheif of geriatrics at einstein/jacobi/montefiore got an 11.

Hmmm.....
I don't know if it's you or me that is being naive.

Are you sure it wasn't an 11 in each section (33)? Sometimes people just refer to a single score as an average of the three. Sounds a lot more realistic to me. If this guy truly had an 11, I'd venture to say that either an 11 was way more valuable back then or else he is an exception to the rule.

Nowadays, I have never heard of anyone getting into medical school, even DO school, with a score even close to an 11. That is insane. That's an average of less than 4 per section. Some people with fragile X syndrome might be able to reach that score (no disrespect to people with mentally handicapped family/friends). I would hope they wouldn't admit admit anybody with a score of less than the low 20's, and even then the candidate had better be unique and stellar in other areas to make up for it. We're talking about medical school here, not the special olympics.

While I'm on the subject, you guys were talking about diploma mills. Well, a popular statistic that is thrown around here (that doesn't seem to get challenged) is that about half of people that apply to medical school are accepted. I think that's significant.

If we double the number of schools, in theory almost everyone that applied would be accepted. That is just not right. Someone said earlier that medical school is supposed to be hard to get into. I agree. Frankly, and I've just gotta be honest here, I can't believe some of the kids that got into my school. For the most part, most everyone seems very bright and capable, but there are a handful that I absolutely would not trust with a patient. Anyway that's a different topic for a different day.

My point is, I think admission standards at DO schools are lax enough. Unless we suddenly have a surge in the number of qualified applicants (and I have no reason to believe that), then if you add more schools/spots, then that NECESSARILY means the quality of the matriculants will be reduced somewhat. I thought this was fairly obvious but nobody else seems to think so.

That's one reason why I'm against new schools opening. How can it NOT reduce matriculant quality? It's simple supply and demand. If it's really about the rural patients, there has to be another way to get them medical care without sacrificing quality. There must be another way.

 

[Chrisobean]

Originally posted by Goofyone
Hmmm.....
I don't know if it's you or me that is being naive.

Are you sure it wasn't an 11 in each section (33)? Sometimes people just refer to a single score as an average of the three. Sounds a lot more realistic to me. If this guy truly had an 11, I'd venture to say that either an 11 was way more valuable back then or else he is an exception to the rule.

Nowadays, I have never heard of anyone getting into medical school, even DO school, with a score even close to an 11. That is insane. That's an average of less than 4 per section. Some people with fragile X syndrome might be able to reach that score (no disrespect to people with mentally handicapped family/friends). I would hope they wouldn't admit admit anybody with a score of less than the low 20's, and even then the candidate had better be unique and stellar in other areas to make up for it. We're talking about medical school here, not the special olympics.

i agree with you, but my point is that these scores have gotten so high fairly recently.
i am positive he got an 11 total. i dont know what the mcat situation was like back then, but still. how crazy is that? maybe it's our generation's fault for being so smart and making this so competitive i just wanted to make a point that MCAT scores on the "low" side dont always lead to a crappy doctor, but i dont think someone with an 11 NOW should be in med school either. i am sick of hearing how all the studies that prove mcat scores correlate with boards. i took the mcat as a college student, granted i did OK, but i'll admit i didnt take it as seriously as i should have. does that mean that i will slack on the boards? no way in hell!
im still torn on the new school issue. i think it will make the profession more visible, just b/c there will be more of them. there are still plenty of qualified applicants who get rejected, so maybe this will give them one more chance. but it doesnt make sense to open them in places already full with med schools. i mean, maybe the rural/underserved areas are that way b/c the people need to leave them to attend med school. and once you leave, why go back when you are already someplace full of opportunities. putting schools there will create jobs and improve the quality of life. im sure there are some people who dont want to live in cities.

 

[moo]

It is impossible that MCAT scores are getting higher. GPA, probably, but MCAT scores, impossible. MCAT scores are graded on the curve, so no matter what you raw score is you are compared to everyone who took the same exam as you. Thus a certain number of people get 15s, a certain number gets 14s, etc. The average hovers around an 8, and this mean fluctuates because the sample size does not allow a perfect Gaussian distribution.

 

[Chrisobean]

i repeat...

Originally posted by Chrisobean
i dont know what the mcat situation was like back then

i have no idea how it was scored when he took it. i told him what i got, and he was shocked at how "high" my score was b/c he only got an 11. so who knows. maybe 11 was the top score for him?

 

[moo]

Originally posted by Chrisobean
maybe it's our generation's fault for being so smart and making this so competitive

I was making the above comment in response to this statement. Our generation is no "smarter" than previous generations, regardless of how the MCAT is scored.

 

[DRGIGGLES]

in reply to those commenting on the need for a med school in the intermountain west... there were actually two groups that looked into this a while back. at this point, nothing has come of either effort as far as i know. (of course, i haven't researched this since i started school myself...too busy.)

one group was looking at starting up at a college in montana (i think it was rocky mountain college) and the other was going to add on to utah valley state college in provo. long, long ago, i actually contacted the president of the montana school and asked what the deal was. his response was that they were looking into the financial viability of such a program and would only go forward if it looked economically feasible. i guess it wasn't.

this sort of thing has repeated itself over and over again and will do so indefinitely. the DO world is expanding and it seems like a lot of people want a part of the action. (not that i necessarily disagree with that sentiment. although i think good clinicals should be an ABSOLUTE prerequisite before allowing new schools to open. finding PhDs to teach biochem is easy; finding or creating good rotations is not.)

incidentally, i believe one of the reasons DO schools can open up faster is that the AOA has a lower escrow requirement for new ventures than the LCME. simply put, the front end capital requirements to open DO schools is much less than for MD schools. i was told this by someone who is now intimately involved with tucom-casino (i mean vegas) planning.

-drgiggles