Which is better: VCU or MCV?

[music2doc]

Serious question!

MCV/VCU is pushing to leave the MCV name off our diplomas. We want to know, which name has a better connotation in your opinion?

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[yehhhboiii]

I've heard of VCU. Never heard of MCV.

 

[music2doc]

I've heard of VCU. Never heard of MCV.

Cool. Thanks. That's the sort of thing I am looking to find out. MCV is our historic name (from when the school was founded in the 1830s) but it's been VCU School of Medicine (in the Tradition of the Medical College of Virginia) for about 60 years. What I'd like to know is whether leaving out the legacy would be harmful to our reputation as graduates. The University wants to unite its brand.

 

[IlDestriero]

UVa. 😉

 

[DrYoda]

I've heard of VCU. Never heard of MCV.

Same here.

 

[DocVapor]

VCU.

MCV = Mean corpuscular volume

😉

 

[digitlnoize]

UVa. 😉

Awesome. I'd add EVMS to that list.

 

[UCSFx2017]

VCU has a negative connotation due to association with its undergraduate school.

 

[music2doc]

VCU has a negative connotation due to association with its undergraduate school.

That's honestly how I feel about it. The medical school has always had a good name it seems but the UG is weak outside the arts from what I hear.

 

[Catalino21]

I've lived in Richmond my whole life, and I would have to say MCV. People around central VA know MCV as a great med school and hospital. When I think of VCU, I think of that place where a lot of not so smart people from my high school went. Obviously there are exceptions and I know some bright kids that went there but as a generalization VCU = meh.

 

[Frazier]

Mcv > vcu

 

[samuelj]

I've lived in Richmond my whole life, and I would have to say MCV. People around central VA know MCV as a great med school and hospital. When I think of VCU, I think of that place where a lot of not so smart people from my high school went. Obviously there are exceptions and I know some bright kids that went there but as a generalization VCU = meh.

+1 as a nova kid

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[FSU2013]

i've heard of vcu. Never heard of mcv.

+1

 

[music2doc]

I think I need a bigger sample size! I would have liked a land-slide in one direction or the other. It would make convincing our administration (or myself, if VCU won) much easier. With such a mid-line split, any difference is basically impossible to tease out (or determine if significant -- obviously, as of now, nothing would be significant).

 

[digitlnoize]

I think I need a bigger sample size! I would have liked a land-slide in one direction or the other. It would make convincing our administration (or myself, if VCU won) much easier. With such a mid-line split, any difference is basically impossible to tease out (or determine if significant -- obviously, as of now, nothing would be significant).

I think you should go old school and have it say Richmond Professional Institute.

Seriously though, it's only a matter of time before the change is made. The admin has been pushing for it for at least 5 years, if not more.

I would go ahead and embrace it and just go with VCU. It doesn't really matter anyways, you won't be looking at your diploma that much after graduation.

 

[music2doc]

I think you should go old school and have it say Richmond Professional Institute.

Seriously though, it's only a matter of time before the change is made. The admin has been pushing for it for at least 5 years, if not more.

I would go ahead and embrace it and just go with VCU. It doesn't really matter anyways, you won't be looking at your diploma that much after graduation.

True. It's more of a legacy thing, that and whether we are recognized by PDs as at an established school or a new school (obviously, we're well-established but perception is everything sometimes).

 

[CDI]

I've lived in Richmond my whole life, and I would have to say MCV. People around central VA know MCV as a great med school and hospital. When I think of VCU, I think of that place where a lot of not so smart people from my high school went. Obviously there are exceptions and I know some bright kids that went there but as a generalization VCU = meh.

I remember my UG + med track visit at VCU. First impression: dump. Had a full ride offer on the table. In the end, I didn't want to get shot and went elsewhere.

Hopefully the 'Shaka Smart' experience has improved the school and its surroundings.

 

[Frazier]

I think I need a bigger sample size! I would have liked a land-slide in one direction or the other. It would make convincing our administration (or myself, if VCU won) much easier. With such a mid-line split, any difference is basically impossible to tease out (or determine if significant -- obviously, as of now, nothing would be significant).

1. Create a bunch of fake SDN accounts.
2. Vote to skew your own poll results as desired.
3. ???
4. Profit!

👍

 

[digitlnoize]

I remember my UG + med track visit at VCU. First impression: dump. Had a full ride offer on the table. In the end, I didn't want to get shot and went elsewhere.

Hopefully the 'Shaka Smart' experience has improved the school and its surroundings.

It's getting better. The area around the hospital is still a bit crappy but the undergrad campus is pretty awesome now. I don't know anyone who ever got shot there.

I probably would have taken the free ride...

 

[Rumalum]

.

 

[Rumalum]

.

 

[Instatewaiter]

VCU has a negative connotation due to association with its undergraduate school.

I've lived in Richmond my whole life, and I would have to say MCV. People around central VA know MCV as a great med school and hospital. When I think of VCU, I think of that place where a lot of not so smart people from my high school went. Obviously there are exceptions and I know some bright kids that went there but as a generalization VCU = meh.

I completely agree. VCU is a pretty mediocre undergrad while MCV is a decent med school. Realistically, a potted plant would be admitted to VCU undergrad.

It is kind of ridiculous that MCV was around well over 100 years prior to the invention of VCU by the state legislature and is losing its name. It is a ploy to make VCU a higher ranked undergrad and unfortunately is dragging MCV down.

If you ask older doctors (ie the ones who will be offering you residency positions) which they know, they know MCV more than they know VCU.

 

[Instatewaiter]

UVa. 😉

Didn't MCV hospital overtake UVA hospital as the best in the state...

Awesome. I'd add EVMS to that list.

I didn't even think EVMS made the list... haha

blah blah blah... MCV causes heath disparities. Blah MCV is evil

MCV hospital provides roughly 90% of the indigent care to the city of Richmond and over 50% for the entire state of Virginia so it seems that MCV is basically the only one interested in indigent care and narrowing the health disparities gap.

 

[music2doc]

I completely agree. VCU is a pretty mediocre undergrad while MCV is a decent med school. Realistically, a potted plant would be admitted to VCU undergrad.

It is kind of ridiculous that MCV was around well over 100 years prior to the invention of VCU by the state legislature and is losing its name. It is a ploy to make VCU a higher ranked undergrad and unfortunately is dragging MCV down.

If you ask older doctors (ie the ones who will be offering you residency positions) which they know, they know MCV more than they know VCU.

That's what I thought. The impression I got from my dad (a grad of a top 20 med school and medical director at another top med school's hospital) was one of, "Oh, MCV? Yeah, I've worked with lots of MCV docs. They're great. MCV is well-respected." I don't think he'd heard of VCU beyond it's basketball team the last few yrs.... But how do you reverse that?

 

[IlDestriero]

Didn't MCV hospital overtake UVA hospital as the best in the state...

Best hospital =/= best medical school. I don't think they're even in the same class.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Best hospital =/= best medical school. I don't think they're even in the same class.

It does speak to the direction each is going though...

 

[digitlnoize]

Didn't MCV hospital overtake UVA hospital as the best in the state...

I didn't even think EVMS made the list... haha

UVA and MCV/VCU both got pretty poor grades. The best hospital in the state associated with a medical school is Norfolk General actually, which is where EVMS students train. I think Carilion (Roanoke) did pretty well also.

EVMS is highly under-ranked, IMO. I've worked with a number of graduates from there, and they're usually incredible physicians, at least clinically. They may not be a research powerhouse, but I'll be darned if you don't come out of there as an awesome doctor.

I think a large part of their success is their standardized patient program. They train most of the SP's used on board exam worldwide there, and the SP's are incredibly accurate at simulating disease states, so the EVMS students get LOTS of good, early clinical exposure.

Regardless, EVMS is certainly a better school than MCV/VCU, IMO. Most of my friends that went to VCU for medical school also hated it. EVMS, not so much.

 

[laconfidential]

US News has VCU as #1 right now, with INOVA Fairfax as #2, and Sentara Norfolk as #3.

I do appreciate that a so-called "community" hospital beat out UVA.

For the OP, it would be sad if VCU did away with the MCV name. Just because your history isn't always pretty doesn't mean you should try to hide it under the carpet.

 

[digitlnoize]

US News has VCU as #1 right now, with INOVA Fairfax as #2, and Sentara Norfolk as #3.

I do appreciate that a so-called "community" hospital beat out UVA.

For the OP, it would be sad if VCU did away with the MCV name. Just because your history isn't always pretty doesn't mean you should try to hide it under the carpet.

Not US news. That rag means nothing. I'm talking about the ranking of hospitals by patient outcomes. UVa got a D, VCU a C, and Norfolk gen an A. I believe. I'm in my phone so check me.

Here's the link:

http://www.hospitalsafetyscore.org/

 

[Instatewaiter]

Regardless, EVMS is certainly a better school than MCV/VCU, IMO. Most of my friends that went to VCU for medical school also hated it. EVMS, not so much.

I think a large part of their success is their standardized patient program. They train most of the SP's used on board exam worldwide there, and the SP's are incredibly accurate at simulating disease states, so the EVMS students get LOTS of good, early clinical exposure.

You are entitled to your opinion but standardized patients are basically worthless. VCU uses the exact same standardized patients as EVMS. They come on a bus from Norfolk. You realize its a complete waste of time after the first 2 standardized patient experiences.

They suck at simulating disease states. I once had to ask the person if he was trying to fake a murmur by blowing out his mouth. He was like, "You tell me." I wrote down Factitious disorder as the diagnosis.

Not US news. That rag means nothing. I'm talking about the ranking of hospitals by patient outcomes. UVa got a D, VCU a C, and Norfolk gen an A. I believe. I'm in my phone so check me.

Here's the link:

http://www.hospitalsafetyscore.org/

Those ranking are not really patient outcomes, it just measures a few things that CMS gathers data for. Most of the score is related to nursing care or team building or the occasional surgery complications rather than the overall quality of medical care. It also doesn't use a severity of disease index so places that have sicker patients will have lower scores.

I for one would much rather get medical care at UVA who got a D than martha jefferson hospital right down the road that got a B. .

 

[CDI]

US News has VCU as #1 right now, with INOVA Fairfax as #2, and Sentara Norfolk as #3.

I do appreciate that a so-called "community" hospital beat out UVA.

For the OP, it would be sad if VCU did away with the MCV name. Just because your history isn't always pretty doesn't mean you should try to hide it under the carpet.

US News...is 👎

Considering how screwed their reports are with the college rankings I would not trust them.

 

[CDI]

It's getting better. The area around the hospital is still a bit crappy but the undergrad campus is pretty awesome now. I don't know anyone who ever got shot there.

I probably would have taken the free ride...

I didn't personally know of anyone getting shot there, but I do know of people who went there later and got robbed.

Funny how times change. Back then, they knew I wasn't that interested and pushed another $5k my way when I had arrived for the visit. These days, I'm the one begging people to let me join them.

 

[digitlnoize]

You are entitled to your opinion but standardized patients are basically worthless. VCU uses the exact same standardized patients as EVMS. They come on a bus from Norfolk. You realize its a complete waste of time after the first 2 standardized patient experiences.

They suck at simulating disease states. I once had to ask the person if he was trying to fake a murmur by blowing out his mouth. He was like, "You tell me." I wrote down Factitious disorder as the diagnosis.



Those ranking are not really patient outcomes, it just measures a few things that CMS gathers data for. Most of the score is related to nursing care or team building or the occasional surgery complications rather than the overall quality of medical care. It also doesn't use a severity of disease index so places that have sicker patients will have lower scores.

I for one would much rather get medical care at UVA who got a D than martha jefferson hospital right down the road that got a B. .

The things measures ARE patient outcomes. Post op infections, foreign bodies left in the patient, would adherence, bed sores...these are all patient outcomes. They may not all be the physicians fault, but to any med students or premeds that may be reading, trust me, they will matter to you when you're out here in the real world.

You're right in that you do have to compare apples to apples, which is why I didn't try to compare Martha Jefferson to UVa. Norfolk general is a trauma center just like VCU and UVa and get VERY sick patients. Certainly sicker than UVa, maybe not VCU. Same goes for MUSC in charleston. Very similar situation to UVa, but they managed an A rating as well.

 

[Gut Shot]

They may not all be the physicians fault, but trust me, they will matter to you when you're out here in the real world.

You do realize that you are addressing another resident.

 

[digitlnoize]

You do realize that you are addressing another resident.

Ha! Nope. On my phone. It doesn't say.

That was meant to be more directed to the forum in general. Maybe I can edit it... :/

 

[music2doc]

You are entitled to your opinion but standardized patients are basically worthless. VCU uses the exact same standardized patients as EVMS. They come on a bus from Norfolk. You realize its a complete waste of time after the first 2 standardized patient experiences.

They suck at simulating disease states. I once had to ask the person if he was trying to fake a murmur by blowing out his mouth. He was like, "You tell me." I wrote down Factitious disorder as the diagnosis.



Those ranking are not really patient outcomes, it just measures a few things that CMS gathers data for. Most of the score is related to nursing care or team building or the occasional surgery complications rather than the overall quality of medical care. It also doesn't use a severity of disease index so places that have sicker patients will have lower scores.

I for one would much rather get medical care at UVA who got a D than martha jefferson hospital right down the road that got a B. .

Most physicians I have worked with or met consider the CMS reviews at best useless/a waste of resources -- and worse (and possibly more likely) simply harmful. The data may or may not be good, but they seem to make changes that are often against the better judgment of the clinicians. Further, often TJC and CMS make directly contradictory demands. I don't know that I would trust the data gathered by people whose competence at related tasks is so strongly in question.

 

[Instatewaiter]

That website has a bunch of useless stuff that doesn't measure outcomes. At least US news uses outcome data and also stratifies places based on acuity.

FIrst if focuses almost exclusively on surgical care. The vast majority of hospital care is non-surgical.

Post-op DVT/PE- if you give the patient appropriate prophylactic therapy, there is nothing else you could have done and speaks more to the patient's co-morbidities rather than the quality of medical care. If they wanted to measure appropriate medical care, it should have measured number of DVT/PEs due to inappropriate DVT ppx. It didn't

CLABSI- I have a major problem with how CLABSI's are defined. It is retarted. For instance, a patient has a central line, aspirates and has a S pneumo pneumonia and grows it in the blood--> CLABSI when it had nothing to do with the central line and the hospital gets dinged..

Get docked bigtime if you don't have computer order entry.

An open ICU you automatically lose 60 points no matter your outcomes or if you have 1 intensivist per patient. It has nothing to do with OUTCOMES

Falls and trauma- often nothing you could do about this. Also speaks to how sick patients are.

Pressure ulcers- agree and disagree with this. You get dinged if the patient gets a pressure ulcer. This is part nursing care and part how sick the patients are. It is not standarized based on acuity.

Iatrogenic pneumothorax- this is not standrdized based on acuity. It is based on 1000 patient discharges. If patients aren't sick enough to need central lines, bronchs or biopsies they're probably not getting a pneumothorax. Also if a hospital doesn't have an ICU or doesnt have a pulmonology department you're not having a PTX. Why would the methodologies take this into account?

Teamwork, training and skill building- what a worthless measure.
Med reconsiliation- also worthless as it is required.
Leadership structure- worthless

You do realize that you are addressing another resident.

Didn't you go to MCV back in the day?

 

[RapplixGmed]

VCU has a negative connotation due to association with its undergraduate school.

That's honestly how I feel about it. The medical school has always had a good name it seems but the UG is weak outside the arts from what I hear.

Obviously there are exceptions and I know some bright kids that went there but as a generalization VCU = meh.

I remember my UG + med track visit at VCU. First impression: dump. Had a full ride offer on the table. In the end, I didn't want to get shot and went elsewhere.

I completely agree. VCU is a pretty mediocre undergrad while MCV is a decent med school. Realistically, a potted plant would be admitted to VCU undergrad.

WOW whats with all the VCU undergrad hate? I'm a Richmond native that went to VCU undergrad and am now about to graduate from WashU for med school. I haven't posted on SDN in months and came back just to respond to this vitrol.

OK I will admit that as a huge second tier state school, we do take a ton of kids that weren't accepted elsewhere, but it saddens me that even Virginians are quick to label all VCU students as idiots. Were there people that I'd rather not associate with? Yes but you'd probably see that at any large state school. Among the premed people I knew, some of the med schools we ended up going to included Harvard, WashU, Mayo, Northwestern, UCLA, Maryland, UVA, and *VCU*. Not a terrible catch for a group of dimwits. With such a huge student population, I'm sure there were awesome med school admissions that I don't know about too.

This school is big. There will be smart people, there will be dumb people, and everything in between. The students are spread out across the downtown of a southern city that is exploding in size and has improved immensely in the 15 or so years that I've been familiar with it.

 

[flodhi1]

 

[music2doc]

Hahaha.... At the risk of giving away my identity, I was talking with some VIPs recently, including a bunch of very influential physicians, and they were all quite adamant about our school being MCV. It was really kind of funny. Those who had graduated from MCV/VCU were especially fierce in their opinions. Those who had simply had interactions with the school were less fierce but nonetheless seemed to stand for its traditional identity. They also noted it is, by VA statute, MCV.

 

[flodhi1]

Hahaha.... At the risk of giving away my identity, I was talking with some VIPs recently, including a bunch of very influential physicians, and they were all quite adamant about our school being MCV. It was really kind of funny. Those who had graduated from MCV/VCU were especially fierce in their opinions. Those who had simply had interactions with the school were less fierce but nonetheless seemed to stand for its traditional identity. They also noted it is, by VA statute, MCV.

VCU or MCV, the quality of education will remain excellent so the name doesn't phase me at all.

 

[music2doc]

VCU or MCV, the quality of education will remain excellent so the name doesn't phase me at all.

I agree, although I fear our school loses some credibility if we drop our heritage since we suddenly have to explain to people, "No, we are not a 'new' school; we've actually been around for [nearly] 200 years under a different name." It's just an unnecessary thing to me.

Even so, honestly, I'd be quite supportive of this if VCU had a strong name academically. If VCU were, say, William & Mary or Princeton (i.e., an excellent UG currently w/o a med school), I'd be ALL OVER dropping the MCV monicker, but it doesn't make sense to take a well-regarded, nationally-recognized brand (MCV) and drop it to take on a brand of mediocre repute and little national recognition. It dilutes our good name (presumably with the hope of helping the UG's name by assuming credit for the accomplishments of the MCV campus & health system.

I feel like VCU UG should FIRST up its standards and THEN ask MCV to change names (after a solid 10 yrs or so of steady growth AND at least recognition across the Eastern Seaboard of its change in status). If VCU UG can make itself a first-tier UG with average SATs (excluding Writing) of, say, 1250+ (~85th percentile in both sections) and avg incoming GPA of 3.7+, THEN I would see it as an asset.

As of now, their incoming stats are avg GPA ~3.6 & SAT 1130 (70th percentile) using the best scores individual subscores (which I would consider cheating from a stats perspective...)..

For comparison, W&M doesn't release avg GPAs (they just say most of their incoming freshmen were in the top 10-20% of their HS classes), but their average SAT (excl. writing) is ~1355 (90+th percentile in all sections).

 

[KinasePro]

This thread reminds me of Dartmouth Medical School recently being renamed Geisel School of Medicine (aka Dr Seuss SOM). I believe their medical students were pretty upset about it when this happened and raised a minor fuss, but at the end of the day, it came down to who & where the $$ was coming from.

Sad to say OP, this is a losing battle you're picking here.

 

[music2doc]

This thread reminds me of Dartmouth Medical School recently being renamed Geisel School of Medicine (aka Dr Seuss SOM). I believe their medical students were pretty upset about it when this happened and raised a minor fuss, but at the end of the day, it came down to who & where the $$ was coming from.

Sad to say OP, this is a losing battle you're picking here.

The thing is that the alumni -- which is where money would come from (right?) -- are against it (strongly), state law protects the MCV name, and lawsuits have actually been brought over it. You'd think the administration would get it already. They don't have the support of the community nor their alumni.

 

[samuelj]

I agree, although I fear our school loses some credibility if we drop our heritage since we suddenly have to explain to people, "No, we are not a 'new' school; we've actually been around for [nearly] 200 years under a different name." It's just an unnecessary thing to me.

Even so, honestly, I'd be quite supportive of this if VCU had a strong name academically. If VCU were, say, William & Mary or Princeton (i.e., an excellent UG currently w/o a med school), I'd be ALL OVER dropping the MCV monicker, but it doesn't make sense to take a well-regarded, nationally-recognized brand (MCV) and drop it to take on a brand of mediocre repute and little national recognition. It dilutes our good name (presumably with the hope of helping the UG's name by assuming credit for the accomplishments of the MCV campus & health system.

I feel like VCU UG should FIRST up its standards and THEN ask MCV to change names (after a solid 10 yrs or so of steady growth AND at least recognition across the Eastern Seaboard of its change in status). If VCU UG can make itself a first-tier UG with average SATs (excluding Writing) of, say, 1250+ (~85th percentile in both sections) and avg incoming GPA of 3.7+, THEN I would see it as an asset.

As of now, their incoming stats are avg GPA ~3.6 & SAT 1130 (70th percentile) using the best scores individual subscores (which I would consider cheating from a stats perspective...)..

For comparison, W&M doesn't release avg GPAs (they just say most of their incoming freshmen were in the top 10-20% of their HS classes), but their average SAT (excl. writing) is ~1355 (90+th percentile in all sections).

a little off topic but it reminded me of the rumors to rename EVMS William and Mary (not sure if this plan is already DOA). I think a combination of EVMS becoming W&M AND MCV becoming VCU would really hurt MCV/VCU. I dont think anyone would argue the fact that W&M Undergrad >> VCU UG

 

[music2doc]

a little off topic but it reminded me of the rumors to rename EVMS William and Mary (not sure if this plan is already DOA). I think a combination of EVMS becoming W&M AND MCV becoming VCU would really hurt MCV/VCU. I dont think anyone would argue the fact that W&M Undergrad >> VCU UG

I would agree. The impression I have had is that historically Virginians have seen the ranking as UVa>MCV (some MCV>UVa for clinical training) >> EVMS > VTech MD > VCOM. If the W&M thing ever actually happens (no clue where that is or if it will ever occur), it would certainly help W&M.

On a side note, I talked with our Dean about this and he is quite p*ssed about what's going on and is working to make things right.

 

[flodhi1]

I would agree. The impression I have had is that historically Virginians have seen the ranking as UVa>MCV (some MCV>UVa for clinical training) >> EVMS > VTech MD > VCOM. If the W&M thing ever actually happens (no clue where that is or if it will ever occur), it would certainly help W&M.

On a side note, I talked with our Dean about this and he is quite p*ssed about what's going on and is working to make things right.

Dean as in Dr. Strauss?

 

[music2doc]

Dean as in Dr. Strauss?

Yes. He was not too happy about the situation. I think we'd have his support if we marched on a Board meeting, to be honest.

 

[DocVapor]

I would agree. The impression I have had is that historically Virginians have seen the ranking as UVa>MCV (some MCV>UVa for clinical training) >> EVMS > VTech MD > VCOM. If the W&M thing ever actually happens (no clue where that is or if it will ever occur), it would certainly help W&M.

On a side note, I talked with our Dean about this and he is quite p*ssed about what's going on and is working to make things right.

*butthurt over ranking.

As far as the ranking, except for UVA it is entirely region dependent. And then ranking VTC, which hasn't even graduated a class yet over VCOM is premature.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using SDN Mobile

 

[TheTrollsToll]

What is the difference between VCU undergrad and MCV undergrad?