Which is better?

[mfrick]

Which would be better for medical school admissions, a sgpa of 3.91 and gpa of 3.93 from a third tier university or a sgpa of 3.25 and gpa of 3.45 from a top 20 college? Assume a MCAT score of 34.

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[tdittyx2x3]

Undergrad school doesn't matter. GPA does. The third tier student in this example, which I'm hoping is you covertly trying to figure out your chances, has a MUCH greater advantage.

These numbers are oddly specific by the way. I can't think of a reason why you'd be comparing the two.. and they both can't be you.. hmmmmmmmm...

 

[AdmiralChz]

Like tditty said, school doesn't really matter all that much. a GPA of 3.9+ anywhere (as long as its a 4-year school) is very strong, in my opinion! Plus the 34 backs up the strong performance. But a GPA of 3.2ish anywhere definitely isn't strong... and I think it would make med school admissions tough.

 

[19nbj58]

Which would be better for medical school admissions, a sgpa of 3.91 and gpa of 3.93 from a third tier university or a sgpa of 3.25 and gpa of 3.45 from a top 20 college? Assume a MCAT score of 34.

This question is ridiculous. If you want more responses, increase the second person's gpa and mcat.

 

[mfrick]

Why is it ridiculous? BTW.. both results apply to the same person.

 

[236116]

Why is it ridiculous? BTW.. both results apply to the same person.

The higher the GPA, the better the chances. Your school doesn't matter.

Incidentally, if it's the same person, and they were stupid enough to do 2 completely different baccs, they're going to have to report both.

 

[redlight]

Which would be better for medical school admissions, a sgpa of 3.91 and gpa of 3.93 from a third tier university or a sgpa of 3.25 and gpa of 3.45 from a top 20 college? Assume a MCAT score of 34.

3.9 no brainer
the 3.45 top 20 WILL have classmates with 3.6+/34ish who will get in before him/her

 

[cbrons]

 

[Leejwwc]

3.9 regardless of college will trump a 3.4 from even the best. the difference is too large to go unnoticed. however if its a 3.6 or 3.7, like another poster mentioned, that is a much more reasonable gap and the rest of your file will be reviewed in more detail.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Which would be better for medical school admissions, a sgpa of 3.91 and gpa of 3.93 from a third tier university or a sgpa of 3.25 and gpa of 3.45 from a top 20 college? Assume a MCAT score of 34.

A friend of mine who was on an AdCom told me that at his school they added up to 3 points to your "LizzyM score" based on your undergraduate university.

So your first applicant would have about 10*(3.9) + 34 = 73. I'm not sure whether they calculate it using BCPM GPA or overall GPA, so your second applicant would have 34 + 34.5 + 3 = 71.5 or 34 + 32.5 + 3 = 69.5. The added points would not be enough to make up such a large difference in GPA.

In any case, that was only one school; other schools may give it more or less weight.

 

[Kaustikos]

Why is it ridiculous? BTW.. both results apply to the same person.

How?

The higher the GPA, the better the chances. Your school doesn't matter.

Incidentally, if it's the same person, and they were stupid enough to do 2 completely different baccs, they're going to have to report both.

Exactly. It doesn't matter if you went to a tier 1 mega ultra rare, epic level 80 Ivy League University.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Exactly. It doesn't matter if you went to a tier 1 mega ultra rare, epic level 80 Ivy League University.

No, see my post above. It does matter (at least at some schools) but not that much.

 

[Kaustikos]

No, see my post above. It does matter (at least at some schools) but not that much.

I was referring to chance wise. More often than not, a higher gpa with same mcat trumps. Please don't include outliers

 

[AdmiralChz]

A friend of mine who was on an AdCom told me that at his school they added up to 3 points to your "LizzyM score" based on your undergraduate university.

So your first applicant would have about 10*(3.9) + 34 = 73. I'm not sure whether they calculate it using BCPM GPA or overall GPA, so your second applicant would have 34 + 34.5 + 3 = 71.5 or 34 + 32.5 + 3 = 69.5. The added points would not be enough to make up such a large difference in GPA.

In any case, that was only one school; other schools may give it more or less weight.

Might be true for 1 school, but I disagree that this is applied as a rule everywhere. Adcoms vary WIDELY from school to school. The 3.9 GPA (about an A average) is far better than the 3.4 (about a B+ average) - period.

 

[Vihsadas]

The 3.9 easily wins. Undergraduate university does not matter all that much. All things being equal besides the ugrad college and the GPA, the 3.9 wins almost every time. You can search MDapps, and you'll see that this is almost certainly always the case.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

I was referring to chance wise. More often than not, a higher gpa with same mcat trumps. Please don't include outliers

What do you mean outliers? The OP seems to be asking about the weight given to your undergraduate institution. If the OP had given his Ivy League applicant a 3.6 GPA, the two applicants would have been equally competitive at the school I am talking about.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Might be true for 1 school, but I disagree that this is applied as a rule everywhere. Adcoms vary WIDELY from school to school. The 3.9 GPA (about an A average) is far better than the 3.4 (about a B+ average) - period.

I don't think we're disagreeing. Like I said, I have no idea how common this practice is, and even at the school I mentioned the extra points are not enough to make up for the mediocre GPA.

 

[Kaustikos]

What do you mean outliers? The OP seems to be asking about the weight given to your undergraduate institution. If the OP had given his Ivy League applicant a 3.6 GPA, the two applicants would have been equally competitive at the school I am talking about.

THAT is an outlier. HOw many schools use the LizzyM score or even add "points" to your score based upon your undergraduate school? How many just look at gpa and MCAT and say "well, his/her gpa is stronger and the MCAT is the same. I'm more inclined to accept this person instead of the other"?

You're arguing against statistics that have proven this idea correct

 

[Vihsadas]

THAT is an outlier. HOw many schools use the LizzyM score or even add "points" to your score based upon your undergraduate school? How many just look at gpa and MCAT and say "well, his/her gpa is stronger and the MCAT is the same. I'm more inclined to accept this person instead of the other"?

You're arguing against statistics that have proven this idea correct

Right. There are more than a few low GPA high MCAT students on this website to use an anecdotal evidence. Me, MaxPrime, Rabbit, etc. We are evidence that the "LizzyM" score is just a general measure. In fact, this is basically what LizzyM has said. I don't think she ever claimed it was the way that admissions committees actually do business.
Low GPA is a killer. It doesn't matter what school you come from, it will hurt you. If schools used my LizzyM score to measure my competitiveness I think I might have gotten one or two more looks from the most selective schools (I'm not complaining, lol. I've done better than my wildest dreams at this point) I only know this because I've called a few and I know a few people. Some schools have more or less straight GPA cutoffs. If I didn't make them, that was it.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

THAT is an outlier. HOw many schools use the LizzyM score or even add "points" to your score based upon your undergraduate school? How many just look at gpa and MCAT and say "well, his/her gpa is stronger and the MCAT is the same. I'm more inclined to accept this person instead of the other"?

You're arguing against statistics that have proven this idea correct

What statistics?

 

[KeyzerSoze]

We are evidence that the "LizzyM" score is just a general measure. In fact, this is basically what LizzyM has said. I don't think she ever claimed it was the way that admissions committees actually do business.

Seriously? you think Adcoms review 5000 applications without a way of ranking them numerically?

The reason it's a general measure is that it's just the beginning of your score. EC's, personal statement, etc are also all quantified.

 

[Vihsadas]

Seriously? you think Adcoms review 5000 applications without a way of ranking them numerically?

No, I didn't say that. But the fact of the matter is that the LizzyM score isn't used at every school. Each one is different, and each has their own way. Some, like I mentioned, use straight GPA cutoffs and don't read each app. Some will read an app with a low GPA if the MCAT is sufficiently high, and then some still will actually read every app (although they might not take someone seriously with a really low GPA and nothing else to show). All I'm saying is that a low GPA will not get you past some of those schools regardless of the university. With a sufficiently high MCAT, it might at some other schools. Bottom line: low GPA will hurt you, and if it's from a good university probably won't matter if you don't make the cut.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Seriously? you think Adcoms review 5000 applications without a way of ranking them numerically?

The reason it's a general measure is that it's just the beginning of your score. EC's, personal statement, etc are also all quantified.

That's why there are cutoffs. With a 3.4, some schools will throw you in the "No" pile right off the bat - regardless of whether you saved the world, landed on the moon, or discovered that the dodo bird wasn't really extinct.

With 5000 applicants, there simply isn't enough time to look at each application and say, "well, a 3.4 is low, but look at his MCAT and his PS!" Ideally this would be the case, but there are just too many people applying...

 

[Kaustikos]

What statistics?

How about the mean/median gpa and mcat of matriculants to start?

 

[mfrick]

Sorry all, I did not intend to set off a debate. I merely wanted to know how the two gpa's at the two different schools would be viewed by adcoms.

 

[Kaustikos]

Sorry all, I did not intend to set off a debate. I merely wanted to know how the two gpa's at the two different schools would be viewed by adcoms.

Debate's are just an exchange of ideas.

 

[Vihsadas]

Debate's are just an exchange of ideas.

Exactly. Debates are a good thing as long as they stay civil.

 

[slowbutsteady]

A friend of mine who was on an AdCom told me that at his school they added up to 3 points to your "LizzyM score" based on your undergraduate university.

So your first applicant would have about 10*(3.9) + 34 = 73. I'm not sure whether they calculate it using BCPM GPA or overall GPA, so your second applicant would have 34 + 34.5 + 3 = 71.5 or 34 + 32.5 + 3 = 69.5. The added points would not be enough to make up such a large difference in GPA.

In any case, that was only one school; other schools may give it more or less weight.

The LizzyM 3 point bump, if i recall, is not for "top 20" undergrads. more like top 3. And 3.25 is pretty low under any circumstances from any undergrad for any med school.

I don't recall any 3.2 GPAs on SDN posting acceptances. if there were, i'm sure we'll hear about it.

 

[Superman78]

Undergrad school does matter a little bit, but not nearly enough to make up for that GPA difference.

But they do definitely take into account the fact that a Berkeley student, for example, is dealing with more grade deflation than most others. Yet still, Berkeley students have pretty mediocre med school acceptances.

It's not fair, but that's why we have the MCAT to serve as a measuring stick.

 

[ej37]

well now that we have pretty much settled the debate over which is better... does anyone know of any specific med schools that do in fact give weight to "hard" undergrads?

 

[Vihsadas]

well now that we have pretty much settled the debate over which is better... does anyone know of any specific med schools that do in fact give weight to "hard" undergrads?

The first thing that comes to mind is University of Michigan's "Auto-invite" system. If you have numbers above a certain threshold and you come from a list of specific "top schools" (constructed by the University) then you get an auto-invite to U Mich.

 

[redlight]

no, no, i think the LizzyM score would be pretty valid at most schools. (pretty much) all schools have cut-offs, (pretty much) all schools have objective (read: formulas) ways of cutting down the number of applicants they critically/holistically review... so i think in addition to the lizzym score, there are gpa and mcat cut-offs, which could explain why the 3.0/41 mcat gets no love at the school with 3.7/34 averages

the formula might look like GPA*10 + MCAT = #, IF gpa >3.2, MCAT > 30 ( 10, 10, 10) and # is >/= X, you move on to further screening

however, i think the gpa cutt-off is very different from school to school. i have a feeling that at schools like mayo the cut-off could be as high as 3.7 lol (jk) but some schools might look at 3.0s

 

[Nomdeplume]

I differ from some posters in my belief that an applicant's undergraduate institution can matter, to a very limited degree. I will explain my reasoning.

The websites of some of the very top medical schools provide lists of the undergraduate institutions from which their students came. These lists, in my fairly limited knowledge of them, contain the most prestigious undergraduate universities and liberal arts colleges almost exclusively. Therefore, I believe that an applicant's institution can matter, but probably only when applying to the most exclusive medical schools. I'd like to add that even then, it is far from the most important variable. I would guess that it is only a minor factor.

So, to answer your question, I believe that the applicant with the higher GPA would appear dramatically more attractive.

These numbers are oddly specific by the way. I can't think of a reason why you'd be comparing the two.. and they both can't be you.. hmmmmmmmm...

Of course they can!

1) Cloning
2) Time machine
3) Evil twins

I'm on to you... .

 

[236116]

The websites of some of the very top medical schools provide lists of the undergraduate institutions from which their students came. These lists, in my fairly limited knowledge of them, contain the most prestigious undergraduate universities and liberal arts colleges almost exclusively. Therefore, I believe that an applicant's institution can matter, but probably only when applying to the most exclusive medical schools. I'd like to add that even then, it is far from the most important variable. I would guess that it is only a minor factor.

The top school are also looking to increase their prestige, and will go for the kids that have high gpa, mcat, research, etc... That may be a function of the school, yes, but it is not because of the school's name.

 

[drelizabeth292]

the higher gpa will be better, as long as the rest of your application is good.

 

[Nomdeplume]

The top school are also looking to increase their prestige, and will go for the kids that have high gpa, mcat, research, etc... That may be a function of the school, yes, but it is not because of the school's name.

I agree that, while it does appear to be a function of the school, it's not necessarily because of the name. One plausible explanation is, of course, that "high-achiever" schools simply have more "high-achiever" students.

I just felt that the correlation warranted acknowledgment. Playin' it safe.

 

[Vihsadas]

I agree that, while it does appear to be a function of the school, it's not necessarily because of the name. One plausible explanation is, of course, that "high-achiever" schools simply have more "high-achiever" students.

I just felt that the correlation warranted acknowledgment. Playin' it safe.

I think its not necessarily that meaningful a correlation for this specific purpose. We don't know the GPAs attached to the students who come from those prestigious institutions. If you found a correlation between low-GPA students who were accepted and the prestige of their undergraduate institution, then maybe we'd be on to something.

 

[anbuitachi]

so its easier to get into a good med school from a not so good college? almost everyone i know from my HS in state schools/city schools have 4.0 or near 4.0 avgs... while the other who got into schools like cornell only have 3.5-3.7 avgs.

 

[236116]

so its easier to get into a good med school from a not so good college? almost everyone i know from my HS in state schools/city schools have 4.0 or near 4.0 avgs... while the other who got into schools like cornell only have 3.5-3.7 avgs.

What's good? Or not good? It's not easy to get into any school.

Your objective is a GPA that is 3.5+ regardless of your school or major.

 

[wjstk]

what if it was a 3.6 from a second tier univ vs 3.9 from a third tier with the same mcat score for both?
are we refering to cgpa or sgpa though?

 

[236116]

what if it was a 3.6 from a second tier univ vs 3.9 from a third tier with the same mca score for both?
are we refering to cgpa or sgpa though?

All of your GPA's need to be 3.5+ and the "tier" doesn't matter unless you're going for Michigan and want an auto-invite.

 

[anbuitachi]

What's good? Or not good? It's not easy to get into any school.

Your objective is a GPA that is 3.5+ regardless of your school or major.

oops, i meant any med school.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Just 4.0 no matter where you are, and youll be fine.

 

[anbuitachi]

then i assume stuff like difficulty of classes don't really matter either? Like if your courses are loaded with 100 lvl classes?

 

[236116]

then i assume stuff like difficulty of classes don't really matter either? Like if your courses are loaded with 100 lvl classes?

Adcom will see that and drop you.

 

[redlight]

so its easier to get into a good med school from a not so good college? almost everyone i know from my HS in state schools/city schools have 4.0 or near 4.0 avgs... while the other who got into schools like cornell only have 3.5-3.7 avgs.

in terms of getting into ANY med school, school prestige doesnt matter

getting into TOP med schools, prestige plays some sort of role. hard to say how much, but it cant all that much.

anecdotal: i have friends who work for admissions committies at penn and yale. they tell me overall you need a good gpa, but there seems to be a little more leeway for those from top/rigorous ugrad, but if you go to a less rigorous ugrad, your gpa has to be skyhigh. you are not going to see many applicants from unknown school w/ a 3.5 get in barring crazy ECs/awards or something

 

[redlight]

why would anyone care if you have a few 100 lvls? are all 100 lvl easy? i know they usually are, but i have taken 100 lvls that are pretty tough (physics comes to mind)

 

[UofM527]

I definitely agree with lots of the posts here...i mean, clearly, go for the best GPA you can no matter where you are and you'll have less problems...and the GPA difference is quite large in the original quesiton - near a 4.0 anywhere is going to look great...however, as some people have asked, what about that interesting 3.5-3.6 range from a top school vs some school no one has ever heard of...i have to say I think the school matters when it comes to something like this...esp when i see data such as this from one particular school....

http://www.careercenter.umich.edu/students/healthmedlaw/med/medappstats.html

would some of those numbers work from a "third tier" school?? doubtful, but who knows....

 

[halekulani]

i would go with third tier. with that being said, LizzyM has stated before that undergraduate institution does matter somewhat, but my guess would be definitely not that generous to a 3.2 sgpa.

 

[scarletgirl777]

That's why there are cutoffs. With a 3.4, some schools will throw you in the "No" pile right off the bat - regardless of whether you saved the world, landed on the moon, or discovered that the dodo bird wasn't really extinct.

With 5000 applicants, there simply isn't enough time to look at each application and say, "well, a 3.4 is low, but look at his MCAT and his PS!" Ideally this would be the case, but there are just too many people applying...

Ehhhh. A 3.4 isn't great, but I doubt there are any schools whose number screens are so high that a 3.4 is an automatic rejection.