Which is harder: MD or PhD?

[gujuDoc]

In biology it's rare to find a reputable department that will allow you to graduate without publications. Also, it is in an advisor's best interest to help grad students develop projects that will succeed, since failure does not keep a lab going. There are certainly downsides to research, but it's not nearly as bad as learfan makes it out to be, if it's what you want to do. At least in biology.

I think everyone's experiences are different based on the labs where they work and the advisors. Some advisors are good and some are horrendous. Some treat you properly and others take advantage.

Some have some really good research when you go in and others you will be lucky if you get a good project.

I guess a person just needs to think long and hard and think about what in researdch intrestes them and look at what different places offer long and hard before coming to any final conclusions.

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[Hoberto]

Both med school and grad school are hard, like swimming a mile. But for med school you are in a lighted, heated lap pool with people walking along side you telling you how far you have gone. When you are done everyone applaudes and throws lots of money at you. But in grad school you start out on a deserted island on a foggy night, you can't see land in any direction. You have to swim around till you find land, for however long it takes. And when you get there, it is just another deserted island.

This is one of the best analogies I've seen.
It is now posted in the lab, next to my shelf of buffers.

 

[Steiner]

I think everyone's experiences are different based on the labs where they work and the advisors. Some advisors are good and some are horrendous. Some treat you properly and others take advantage.

Some have some really good research when you go in and others you will be lucky if you get a good project.

I guess a person just needs to think long and hard and think about what in researdch intrestes them and look at what different places offer long and hard before coming to any final conclusions.

This is absolutely correct. And from experience let me say if you get into a school or under an advisor that is not helpful it is a horrible experience. Although in my experience, it is that most "Advisors" take advantage and are horrendous. They feel that they put in their time and their students should be greatful for the opportunity to work under them, and I emphasize under. "Advisors" know all and are never wrong.

Good luck to anyone who goes to grad school without knowing exactly what you're getting into and loving the type of research your soon to be master does. I went somewhere just because of the money, and it was hell.

 

[Hoberto]

Which is harder? Hands down, PhD. Medical school is a much harder to club to join but once you're in it, you won't get kicked out and as has been mentioned, barring some sort of catastophe you will become a doctor.

Anyway, I thought I'd add in my experiences.

I've worked in two labs. I did a 2 year stint in undergrad that resulted in 2 publications. The PI is focused on publishable research with a high probability of success. If a project is just interesting but is not particularly useful he doesn't want anyone doing it. Now, if you want to write the grant and fund yourself for that project he's cool with that and will even help you find a suitable funding source. For me, he had several well-defined projects that could be finished in a few months with ample opportunities to expand them as I saw positive pathways to try. He was very handsoff but available and interested in what was going on.

Now, I am in grad school where research just for knowledge is more commonplace. My PI is not interested in what goes on in the lab. He does not offer support nor does he help troubleshoot when things go awry. He has a million ideas but won't focus on any of them. So, we work on something for a couple of weeks and then are off to the next thing for a week or so, then on to the next project. Sadly, these projects just have us stabbing in the dark. These projects require producing a protein from an established system. We have not been able to do this so any future work is impossible. Rather than trying to figure out WTF is going on we are told to start thinking aobut what else we want to do with the protein??? Who cares what we are going to do with it if we can't even make it?? We are accomplishing nothing and are no closer to graduating. We aren't sure if he's writing for grants so who knows if we'll be funding in the coming months or what. My goal is a degree. This is not the goal of my PI.

So, you can see, two different labs, two different experiences. I came out of undergrad loving research. Now I am having doubts. There is no guarantee that if you manage to find a post-doc after graduation that it'll be a good lab. There are so few positions that you can't really wait for the one that promises good research and a good PI.

 

[vcatz]

There is no guarantee that if you manage to find a post-doc after graduation that it'll be a good lab. There are so few positions that you can't really wait for the one that promises good research and a good PI.

So few post-doc positions??? The national academy of science has been studying job prospects for PhDs - you should look up their studies. There are tons of available post-doc positions in biomedical research in the US. The problem is getting a job after your post-doc.

 

[dhoonlee]

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[Learfan]

This is not necessarily true for biomedical science grad students. In my experience the majority of PhD students graduate with 1 to 5 publications from their thesis work. Most undergrads get their names on publications by working with the grad students. In rare cases an undergrad is able to generate enough data for a first author publication. As for post-docs, they are often given the most risky projects in the lab. PIs do not want to give these projects to grad students because they have a really high potential for failure. If new grad students who are interested in joining the lab for their thesis research see the grad students in a particular lab struggle they will be scared away from joining that research group thus depriving the PI of a cheap source of labor.

You are neglecting one possibility. The PI may have several poor projects making little progress and several unhappy grad students ready to discourage others from joining the group. The PI has the option of threatening to cut off the support of these unhappy students should they try to get candid with the members of the incoming class and interfere with the recruiting of fresh lab fodder. It happened at the university where I did my graduate work and the threats were highly effective. After they were made, the PI had no trouble recruiting three students in the next cycle.

With regard to publications, I can only speak for the small number of labs where I had friends at the one university where I did a PhD. That is a small data set and it is limited to chemistry only.

 

[vcatz]

You are neglecting one possibility. The PI may have several poor projects making little progress and several unhappy grad students ready to discourage others from joining the group. The PI has the option of threatening to cut off the support of these unhappy students should they try to get candid with the members of the incoming class and interfere with the recruiting of fresh lab fodder. It happened at the university where I did my graduate work and the threats were highly effective. After they were made, the PI had no trouble recruiting three students in the next cycle.

With regard to publications, I can only speak for the small number of labs where I had friends at the one university where I did a PhD. That is a small data set and it is limited to chemistry only.

It could possibly happen but is not something that occurs with any frequency. It sounds like you have had a really bad time in grad school and working as a PhD. While you provide some great comments you are totally biased against research/grad school. At most places grad school in the biomedical sciences is not that bad. In the instances when it is bad it is almost always directly attributable to a bad PI - which is a choice made by the grad student.

With respect to publications, I have worked in biomedical science at 2 large pharma companies and 3 major academic research facilities. I have only heard of one biomedical PhD student who did not get at least one publication from their thesis.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Aren't most grad students and post-docs supported by fellowships and grants? Meaning, they needed to outline a proposal and have it approved by whoever doles out the money before they start working on a project. I dont understand why a funding source is going to allocate money to a project that will take 3-4 years and lead to nowhere. Shouldn't the proposal have to show insurmountable evidence for prior research leading up to a project and future directions so the lab isn't going to piss away the $$$?

 

[Learfan]

Aren't most grad students and post-docs supported by fellowships and grants? Meaning, they needed to outline a proposal and have it approved by whoever doles out the money before they start working on a project. I dont understand why a funding source is going to allocate money to a project that will take 3-4 years and lead to nowhere. Shouldn't the proposal have to show insurmountable evidence for prior research leading up to a project and future directions so the lab isn't going to piss away the $$$?

Yes, many grad students and most post-docs are funded in whole or in part by some form of grant. In most situations, the PI has grants from funding sources such as NSF, NIH, PRF, etc. that have a term of from one to five years. The grad student rarely secures his or her own funding as they do not yet have grant writing skills and the political connections needed to secure money. The PI proposes a topic for research, backs it up with literature precident and example in the application and then submits it for consideration to the funding source. Approximately 20% of applications to conventional sources for organic chemistry funding obtain approval and are granted money. Notice I did not claim that the process or concept to be researched has merit or will work. We are discussing a proposal to probe the unknown and proof of concept is not a requirement to apply for funding. Progress is a requirement, however, for renewal of a long term grants from agencies such as NSF. Post-docs often collaborate with the PI in writing new grants or renewal documents to build that skill set as a portion of their training.

 

[Learfan]

It could possibly happen but is not something that occurs with any frequency. It sounds like you have had a really bad time in grad school and working as a PhD. While you provide some great comments you are totally biased against research/grad school. At most places grad school in the biomedical sciences is not that bad. In the instances when it is bad it is almost always directly attributable to a bad PI - which is a choice made by the grad student.

With respect to publications, I have worked in biomedical science at 2 large pharma companies and 3 major academic research facilities. I have only heard of one biomedical PhD student who did not get at least one publication from their thesis.

In many respects we are in agreement. If you read one of my previous posts in this thread, I stated that I believe about 20% of PhD candidates within my area of expertise have a very bad experience in grad school while the next 30% have a fair experience. The remainder have an experience during grad school that is OK or perhaps just a bit dull due to lack of funds. I cannot comment on publications in the biomedical sciences as I have not worked in that area. And finally, yes, I am completely biased against the grad school experience in the traditional chemistry department and performing industrial research within a large traditional company as a career. I am burned out and utterly bored by the inertia and inaction. I do not feel needed nor do I feel that my work will ever be deployed in the field. That is in large part why I will be leaving to pursue medicine as a second career in about five weeks.

 

[dhoonlee]

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[vcatz]

In many respects we are in agreement. If you read one of my previous posts in this thread, I stated that I believe about 20% of PhD candidates within my area of expertise have a very bad experience in grad school while the next 30% have a fair experience. The remainder have an experience during grad school that is OK or perhaps just a bit dull due to lack of funds. I cannot comment on publications in the biomedical sciences as I have not worked in that area. And finally, yes, I am completely biased against the grad school experience in the traditional chemistry department and performing industrial research within a large traditional company as a career. I am burned out and utterly bored by the inertia and inaction. I do not feel needed nor do I feel that my work will ever be deployed in the field. That is in large part why I will be leaving to pursue medicine as a second career in about five weeks.

My main problem with the PhD track is not in grad school (although I agree that for some grad school is a living hell) as much as it is with career opportunities after one completes their PhD and/or a post-doc. It is pretty easy to get into grad school and not too difficult to graduate if you get the right advisor and can handle all of the BS. However, once you are done the only real job prospect is a post-doc. After the post-doc the only real job prospects for many are another post-doc, a non-tenure track faculty appointment or a job as a medical writer. When applying to grad school you hear that PhDs are in demand in Wall Street firms, consulting agencies, law firms, pharma/biotech companies, research universities, etc... While people with science PhDs do work in these capacities the jobs available to recent PhD/post-doc grads are very limited (especially compared to how many of these people are actively looking for employment).

I had the exact same experience in the Pharma industry. It was impossible to get promoted in R&D unless you played politics real well. I saw one guy with no post-doc experience and only 3 published papers (in crappy journals I might add) get promoted to group leader while there were others in the department with much more scientific and managerial experience because he was very charismatic and was in real tight with the VP. That totally disgusted me. R&D is always the first target for layoffs because the business side of the companies see R&D as a major expense that does not generate any revenues. Research in industry is also less dynamic than in academic labs. Most scientists in industry do a limited number of assays repeatedly - gets pretty boring after a while.

So we are in very similar positions - I will be starting med school in 3 weeks. For those thinking about a PhD as a back plan for med school - think very carefully about that decision.

 

[Learfan]

In theory, this is the way it should be but in reality, scientists rarely do things exactly the way they described in their grant. More often than you would think, they end up working on something completely different and money from one grant ends up being siphoned into all sorts of projects.

This is quite common. During my tenure as graduate student we had two major grants and one small grant. These were utilized to fund six different projects. Faculty often skunk work new projects with funds that were obtained to work on older programs.

 

[Learfan]

My main problem with the PhD track is not in grad school (although I agree that for some grad school is a living hell) as much as it is with career opportunities after one completes their PhD and/or a post-doc. It is pretty easy to get into grad school and not too difficult to graduate if you get the right advisor and can handle all of the BS. However, once you are done the only real job prospect is a post-doc. After the post-doc the only real job prospects for many are another post-doc, a non-tenure track faculty appointment or a job as a medical writer. When applying to grad school you hear that PhDs are in demand in Wall Street firms, consulting agencies, law firms, pharma/biotech companies, research universities, etc... While people with science PhDs do work in these capacities the jobs available to recent PhD/post-doc grads are very limited (especially compared to how many of these people are actively looking for employment).

I had the exact same experience in the Pharma industry. It was impossible to get promoted in R&D unless you played politics real well. I saw one guy with no post-doc experience and only 3 published papers (in crappy journals I might add) get promoted to group leader while there were others in the department with much more scientific and managerial experience because he was very charismatic and was in real tight with the VP. That totally disgusted me. R&D is always the first target for layoffs because the business side of the companies see R&D as a major expense that does not generate any revenues. Research in industry is also less dynamic than in academic labs. Most scientists in industry do a limited number of assays repeatedly - gets pretty boring after a while.

So we are in very similar positions - I will be starting med school in 3 weeks. For those thinking about a PhD as a back plan for med school - think very carefully about that decision.

The situation with regard to employment of PhD level scientists is really sad. As of the last annual salary and employment survey conducted by the American Chemical Society, only 37% of PhD level chemists were able to find work in their chosen field. They called the job market "soft". I call it a disaster. If you had prior knowledge of the likely quality of the job market, would you voluntarially choose to spend five or more years working long hours for very little compensation to obtain a highly specialized degree that will strongly limit your career choices to industries that only need a few people with your particular skill set? Sounds like a recipe for career suicide. Although I truly loved synthetic chemistry, I now recognize it was a very poor choice of career. The job choices available to PhD level scientists are very circumscribed and the number of posts is small. During my academic tenure, I found that a significant portion of the graduates simply drifted from post-doc to post-doc without making any real career progress or obtaining entry to industry. Who wants to work for next to nothing for most of your career?

As far as getting promoted should you be fortunate enough to obtain a job at a real company, your best chance is to leave the technical arena ASAP. We have a substantial number of chemistry PhDs now at the downtown business office serving in a variety of junior business management roles. They are really just glorified supply clerks. I watched people in these positions at close range when I worked as a project manager down town for five years. These jobs produce nothing other than worthless paper. No problems are solved. I was very unimpressed. I wanted to take action to improve business results and gain new customers. That was not allowed siince it might show up the more senior leaders who were mostly MBAs. Your only way up the ladder was kissing up to these people at length. Sorry, I prefer to deal with real results when it comes time to evaluate people (money earned, new products created, new customers buying from us) rather than bs and butt kissing. SO, leaving will be a scary adventure into what I hope will be a more action oriented career with performance feedback (patient outcomes, money earned by working harder, etc.) that I really need to be happier.

 

[maddscientist]

For those reading this thread: Don't ever, ever, ever go to graduate school unless you are 100% sure that you will do whatever it takes to become a professor. It is simply not worth the effort unless you really love your field more than anything else in your life (sanity, sleep, friends etc.) After four years and two publications as an undergrad, I entered grad school really thinking that I wanted to be a professor. I joined a quite sucessful lab, but it took me two years to learn that my PI was a complete cockmaster. All he does is load the lab with clueless post-docs(20+) and hope that one of them will work hard enough to find something. No elegant science or skillful management, just 4 RO1 grants and brute force. After sitting through the most excruciating 3 hour lab meeting on nothing last year, I tapped out and bought the Kaplan MCAT book. Breaking 30 and knowing that I would get into school somewhere was the most liberating feeling of my life...

 

[Learfan]

For those reading this thread: Don't ever, ever, ever go to graduate school unless you are 100% sure that you will do whatever it takes to become a professor. It is simply not worth the effort unless you really love your field more than anything else in your life (sanity, sleep, friends etc.) After four years and two publications as an undergrad, I entered grad school really thinking that I wanted to be a professor. I joined a quite sucessful lab, but it took me two years to learn that my PI was a complete cockmaster. All he does is load the lab with clueless post-docs(20+) and hope that one of them will work hard enough to find something. No elegant science or skillful management, just 4 RO1 grants and brute force. After sitting through the most excruciating 3 hour lab meeting on nothing last year, I tapped out and bought the Kaplan MCAT book. Breaking 30 and knowing that I would get into school somewhere was the most liberating feeling of my life...

I am sorry to say this but your post had me laughing myself stupid, not at you but in empathy with you. I understand just how demoralizing and frustrating academic science can be unless it is the only thing in your life worth living for or you are one of those very rare stellar minds that discovers key new knowledge that alters the rate of progress in a technical field. The academic training system that leads to the PhD is designed to train more academic scientists, not industrial researchers. You emerge from school with a skill set ill suited to the needs of many large companies.

I too started grad school with the desire to become an academic scientist but did not think the program through all of the way. To land an academic job, it is very helpful to attend one of the big name schools in the field, work for the most famous scientist at that big name school and then land a mega-prestige post-doc. In my field at the time I was doing the PhD, the big names were Harvard (E. J. Corey and R. B. Woodward were the stars then), Stanford, Berkley, MIT, U of Wisconsin at Madison (Barry Trost was the big name) and Columbia. I had the GRE score but was unsure if I had the grades to cut it so I choose not to apply to the big names. Huge mistake on my part. Once I was in a good but not exceptional program, I got to see how the system worked first hand. After watching at very close range how the faculty treated an exceptionally bright but socially maladapted untenured professor, denying him tenure, I decided that academic science might not be for me. I was fortunate to get an industrial job but it has not been all that fulfilling. After a while, all that matters is the money, the vacations the money can pay for, the hobbies the money can pay for, etc..............................You very rarely get to progress any work to the point where a new process goes into a plant, a new product is introduced, a new customer set is aquired or any other tangible reward can be perceived. You rarely get to feel any pride in your accomplishments in industry and as I mentioned before, as a techie who is not perceived as a money maker, you are first out the door when the company hits an economic bump.

I wish you great success in your application to med school. If I can supply any part of my experiences that could be helpful just PM me.

 

[entropy]

depends...

i think a phd in physics or electrical engineering would be harder than an MD.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

If the market is saturated with PhD's in the biological sciences and medically-related fields, why are they still recruiting people for MD/PhD and MSTP programs? I mean it seems like hell to go through the grueling process of med school--phd--residency/post-doc. That's like 12-15 years. I mean is the MD/PhD really worth it if you want to be a PI? I guess you can moonlight during your post-doc to pay the bills, but still. You spend most of your working years poor.

 

[teh-t]

haha this thread is really great. I couldn't agree more on most of what was said.

Learfan I think we have had very similar experiences. I have a synthesis background, and just recently gave notice to my employer.

The good news is that med schools do seem to look favorably upon a successful phd study. while i have some regrets about starting med school at 30, I feel, for myself at least, it is far better to have gained the life experience that grad school, postdoc fellowship, applying for grants, etc have given me. Perhaps I would have succeeded in med school at a younger age, but I have more self-confidence and better study habits than I had as a senior in undergrad.

In chemistry, at least we are fortunate to have a reasonably strong chemical and pharmaceutical industry in this country. If you can put up with the bull-**** there is good money to be made in industry. The problem, as has been mentioned, is that as grad students we get ZERO experience with industrial chemistry

 

[Learfan]

haha this thread is really great. I couldn't agree more on most of what was said.

Learfan I think we have had very similar experiences. I have a synthesis background, and just recently gave notice to my employer.

The good news is that med schools do seem to look favorably upon a successful phd study. while i have some regrets about starting med school at 30, I feel, for myself at least, it is far better to have gained the life experience that grad school, postdoc fellowship, applying for grants, etc have given me. Perhaps I would have succeeded in med school at a younger age, but I have more self-confidence and better study habits than I had as a senior in undergrad.

In chemistry, at least we are fortunate to have a reasonably strong chemical and pharmaceutical industry in this country. If you can put up with the bull-**** there is good money to be made in industry. The problem, as has been mentioned, is that as grad students we get ZERO experience with industrial chemistry

By giving notice to your employer I take it that you will be starting med school shortly.

Alright!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you may imagine if you have read this thread I will be starting out afresh much later in life than most. I tried several corporate roles before giving up on the endless bs and complete inability to get a project through to completion where you can have some pride of accomplishment. I came to the conclusion that if I want to be happier, I have to be working for myself solving problems and working on projects where I get some feedback in days to weeks instead of years to decades. Leaving industry also means not having to go through yet another annual evaluation delivered by some clueless drone ever again and that is a pleasure I can live with. At this point, the only part of the job I like is the coin. I probably will not give notice but will take all of my vacation prior to submitting a resignation. I want every cent I can milk out of them. I made these people some real money and got damm little reward for it so I will take all I can get from them.

As I mentioned before, in the industrial petrochemical setting one of a kind methods are usually employed to manufacture most products. This renders the synthetic knowledge base you acquire in grad school much less valuable.

It was my intention after deciding against an academic position to try for the pharmaceutical or animal health industries. I could not secure entry to one of those areas when I was seeking a first job. Did you work in one of these areas?

 

[docbill]

Hi Guys,

Being in year 6 of grad school I can comment. I think I earned it.
BTW, year 6 cause I did:

1) an MSc - 2 year (medical Biology).
2) Started a PhD - 1.4 Years (medical Biophysics) before I left.
3) PhD - 3 years, going to 4th and I promise my last, one way or another (medical Sciences)

I agree with Learfan on alot of his comments and will not repeat too much.

Going into PhD is not something one should do lightly.

I advice all my summer/undergrad students not to do a PhD unless they LOVE research. NOT like... NOT enjoy... but LOVE RESEARCH. A Masters degree is okay.. since you don't have to produce anything major.

Also I will say doing a PhD to getting into medical school is not the best idea either. It is better to do a second BA or BS.

99% of Profs are tricky. They want the best for them only.
1% of Profs are good mentors and they want to teach and discover something.

For undergrad student.. you get teamed up with PhD or Post-doc and you get told what to do. Most of the time, the project is working after months and months of figuring things out by the grad student. The prof knows that undergrad is not going to be there long enough and doesn't have indepth knowledge or experience to discover something new. SO they get something small to put into next grant or to complete a previous study.

Whereas for Grad students.. specifically PhDs. It is a trap. The prof has some crazy idea. Or saw something at a conference. Comes back and throws pieces of information to the grad student and asks him/her to find out what is going on. The prof has no idea what is going on... has some hypothesis, but doesn't know more about why or how. SO now it is up to the grad student to try to make sence and put a correct hypothesis together and continue doing so even though it maybe the wrong.

On top of that.. some anal profs.. ask student to push for Nature and Science publications. Hahhhhhhh.

The grad student can't leave without screwing up their record. Imagine.. ohhh you quit your PhD. WHy... what makes you think you can cut it in med school.. or JOB.

So what if someone actually likes research.. well that is great. You can be successful at it. And produce papers and get recognition. The one problem you may face is colleagues which are bitter about research and don't really want to be there. Also in research there is lots of gealousy and coniving people. If project is going well, one has to beware that his data is safe and that no one will tamper with their stuff. IT HAPPENS. I HAVE SEEN IT.

 

[Learfan]

If the market is saturated with PhD's in the biological sciences and medically-related fields, why are they still recruiting people for MD/PhD and MSTP programs? I mean it seems like hell to go through the grueling process of med school--phd--residency/post-doc. That's like 12-15 years. I mean is the MD/PhD really worth it if you want to be a PI? I guess you can moonlight during your post-doc to pay the bills, but still. You spend most of your working years poor.

To answer your questions I need to take you away from the areas of science and medicine and over to the principles that govern large organizations. On the first day of the existance of any organization, it has what appears to be a clearly defined mission. From the second day of existance and for all time thereafter, the mission of any organization is to survive and grow no matter what. Simple continued existance is the true goal of any large organization. It does not matter if the organization has a positive purpose, a harmful purpose or no purpose at all. So, organizations that train MD/PhDs will go on doing so no matter if such scientists are needed or not simply to continue their own existance.

No, what I just wrote does not make intuitive sense. It appears somehow wrong. But that is how the world really works. Almost nobody gives up a role they have worked for in a large organization voluntarilly. The hang on to their "rice bowl" and pepetuate the existance of the organization to safeguard their own future.

I have no idea if being a PI is worth the effort and hassle. I spoke to an academic nephrologist a few months ago who was earning in the low $100s and claimed he could earn $400K in private practice. At that salary, forget research and hello kidney failure patients.

 

[Hoberto]

I don't know that it is fair to compare MD/PhD programs to MD or PhD programs. MD/PhD is a difficult path, no doubt, but it is so different from straight PhD or straight MD that comparisons are difficult. Usually there is much more encouragement and guidance to get the students degreed and out in a combined program. How else could it be possible to finish two degrees in less time than taking the two separately? I think this stems from the MSTP programs being federally funded. I imagine that funding is not indefinite for an MSTP student so getting him graduated is much more of a priority. In addition, if MD/PhD students were taking longer to finish, the school's MSTP funding would be at risk. This just leads to the school's working to get the combined degree students done.

Sadly, as mentioned, a PI does not have any reason to help his students finish on time. In fact, it is usually preferred to have the students around longer, particularly once they are trained and running the lab.

 

[Learfan]

Hi Guys,

Being in year 6 of grad school I can comment. I think I earned it.
BTW, year 6 cause I did:

1) an MSc - 2 year (medical Biology).
2) Started a PhD - 1.4 Years (medical Biophysics) before I left.
3) PhD - 3 years, going to 4th and I promise my last, one way or another (medical Sciences)

I agree with Learfan on alot of his comments and will not repeat too much.

Going into PhD is not something one should do lightly.

I advice all my summer/undergrad students not to do a PhD unless they LOVE research. NOT like... NOT enjoy... but LOVE RESEARCH. A Masters degree is okay.. since you don't have to produce anything major.

Also I will say doing a PhD to getting into medical school is not the best idea either. It is better to do a second BA or BS.

99% of Profs are tricky. They want the best for them only.
1% of Profs are good mentors and they want to teach and discover something.

For undergrad student.. you get teamed up with PhD or Post-doc and you get told what to do. Most of the time, the project is working after months and months of figuring things out by the grad student. The prof knows that undergrad is not going to be there long enough and doesn't have indepth knowledge or experience to discover something new. SO they get something small to put into next grant or to complete a previous study.

Whereas for Grad students.. specifically PhDs. It is a trap. The prof has some crazy idea. Or saw something at a conference. Comes back and throws pieces of information to the grad student and asks him/her to find out what is going on. The prof has no idea what is going on... has some hypothesis, but doesn't know more about why or how. SO now it is up to the grad student to try to make sence and put a correct hypothesis together and continue doing so even though it maybe the wrong.

On top of that.. some anal profs.. ask student to push for Nature and Science publications. Hahhhhhhh.

The grad student can't leave without screwing up their record. Imagine.. ohhh you quit your PhD. WHy... what makes you think you can cut it in med school.. or JOB.

So what if someone actually likes research.. well that is great. You can be successful at it. And produce papers and get recognition. The one problem you may face is colleagues which are bitter about research and don't really want to be there. Also in research there is lots of gealousy and coniving people. If project is going well, one has to beware that his data is safe and that no one will tamper with their stuff. IT HAPPENS. I HAVE SEEN IT.

You appear to have traveled a very long and difficult road. I hope you see a positive end in sight and get to it soon.

There are other issues that make the PhD a very long, difficult and unfulfilling road to travel. A substantial portion of your time often gets wasted through no fault of your own. In the lab where my wife was pursuing her degree the focus was on elucidating specific plant biosynthetic pathways used by the organism to make secondary metabolites of potential medicinal interest. What happens when your material is not available or gets destroyed? The following things happened to members of that lab over a period of five years.

1. The shipment of tubers required to grow the plant of interest for one project which was a form of yam native to the Phillipines was seized by US customs and destroyed as a possible source of an illegal drug. The growing season for that plant was concluded and the student had to wait a year for new plants to be shipped from Asia.
2. The lab where we worked was located in a state subject to very cold winters so the greenhouse had to be supplied with steam heat. During building maintenence operations, someone shut off the steam and all of the plants froze setting all projects back at least three months.
3. While my wife was on vacation, the graduate student who promised to care for her plants neglected to water them and they all died. Add three more months to the degree process just to grow new plants.

These incidents just crush the life out of you and suck away your will to live. The MD is more versatile, often shorter in time to work if you count post-doc time, gives one options in terms of number of jobs available and is better compensated. The choice appears easy.

 

[MSc44]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician?

Im a graduate student in molecular biology
My PI got his PhD at einstein (9 years to complete) and post doc at Mt siani, . Since i am now working in his research i go back and forth to einstein to obtain cell lines and colaberate etc every now and then, i spoke to his former PI over there who told me that it is more self motivating to obtain a PhD , MD school you tend to get pushed along as long as u put some effort in ( by the way his PI was an MD turned researcher), I would say thet in the scientific community, although they dont make as much they are more respected. Or so it has seemed to me