Which is harder: MD or PhD?

[DrMike24]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician?

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[Law2Doc]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician?

Well, a vast majority of those who get into MD programs get MDs, but not necessarilly so for PhDs, and certainly there's no guaranty that you will be degreed within only 4 years in a PhD program. I don't know about "harder" -- obviously the difficulty of a PhD will depend on the field. As for better respected, I doubt it -- some might be in their very small academic communities, but physicians have higher profiles in the community at large (and are more frequently better paid).

 

[Booyakasha]

Although I have not even started either degree program yet, I am going to say PhD. Graduate school classes are indeed very difficult ( I actually do know this from experience), and pulling off research is even harder. Medical school seems like a ton of memorization of facts to me (if I am wrong let me know).

The reasons why MD's are more respected have to do with visibility and a certain perceived deity/priest-like existence (the ability to 'save lives'). Read Kafka's story about the country doctor for a brilliant illustration of the former. Medical doctors see patients all the time and are more "involved" in the community. It's no wonder why they get more recognition. Researchers are more behind the scenes--albeit (obviously) a great deal of medical breakthroughs are discovered in the laboratory.

 

[xanthines]

I think getting into PhD programs is easier (on the whole, anyway) than actually getting them. You will be expected think critically and analytically during each class as well as for your journal clubs, quals, and dissertation. While there is some of that in med school, it is more about absorbing huge amounts of information. Also, getting a PhD usually requires some amount/type of creativity to come up with new (and good/useful) hypotheses, which is actually pretty hard. Oh yeah, and PhD students have to deal with experiments just not working for no apparent reason, evil advisors, and so on. Unless you pi$$ someone off or can't do the work, you can get through medical school with relatively fewer hassles. Of course, there are exceptions for everything...

I think it all comes down to the type of person you are and what kind of learning suits you best. Some people will say that MD is harder than PhD. Some people will say the opposite. I imagine people in both groups are probably in the wrong program!

As for R-E-S-P-E-C-T? That, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

-X

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician?

 

[Booyakasha]

Oh yeah, a PhD is considered the highest degree academically by educational institutions themselves.

 

[Hallm_7]

MD - broad spectrum of information but less in depth
PhD - a lot less broad but much more in depth

I would think the difficulty of the course work would be about the same, but I don't think you can compare the difficulty of 3rd and 4th year clerkships to the difficulty of years 3-5 of thesis research. They're just too different.

I think PhDs have more respect in academia while MDs have greater respect in society.

 

[Sam212]

I think its PhD is easier to get into but a lot harder to get while MD is extremely hard to get into, but once you get in its almost certain you will graduate as an MD four years later. You can't say that about PhD.

 

[tigress]

From my perspective, having been in a PhD program and seeing my husband in his MD program, I'd say it's hard to compare. I think the PhD might be harder in terms of patience, critical thinking, and just plain stubborness. It's really difficult to get good work done in a lab. The courses for PhD students, at least where I was in school, require much less absorption of fact but a much greater ability to think about evidence, examine it, design experiments to test it, etc. OTOH, in an MD program you have to memorize so much, and then you're thrown into the clinic, which is a whole new ball game, with an entire set of skills, both physical and mental to learn.

As far as respect, I'd agree with Hallm_7 that PhDs have greater respect in academia and MDs have greater respect in general society.

One thing that makes MD easier, in a way, is the knowledge that in the future you have the potential to make a good deal of money. This is partially, but not entirely, set off by the debt incurred in med school. But a grad student is looking forward to much much lower potential earnings for the time put in.

 

[Sparky Man]

Hmm, comparing the prestige and "ease-of-degree" of MD & PhD degrees is difficult, especially without pissing off everyone. They are both very advanced degrees that carry much respect and are extremely difficult to complete. I have just finished a PhD, and it was very challenging. You can spend 5-10 years chasing a research problem with little reward. Your success depends on both you and your advisor. Only half of my class finished the program. So yes, it's easier to get into, and harder to stay. Anyway, I don't know what my point is. But I wouldn't knock the Ph.D. or the M.D. We need both.

Sparky

 

[gujuDoc]

I agree with all of the above posts!!!!!! Nothing else to add. Just that my sentiments echo a combo of everything that has already been said.

 

[pseudoknot]

I'd just like to say I hope this thread is closed before it turns bad.

 

[xanthines]

Here, here!

-X

But I wouldn't knock the Ph.D. or the M.D. We need both.

Sparky

 

[DrBowtie]

PhD's: either Publish or Perrish.
MD's: what do you call the person graduating last in your class? Doctor!

With that said, I don't think you can really judge the two head to head.

 

[Learfan]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician?

As someone who acquired a PhD in chemistry, let me try to shed a little light on the process. In many programs, the progression through the requirements to be granted the degree look like this:

1. One year of full time classes taken while teaching undergrad classes to support yourself. GPA must be a 3.0 minimum. Strong pressure from research advisor to finish all classes during first year to get you into the lab as completely devoted slave labor ASAP.
2. Comprehensive exam taken at the end of first year with three chances to earn a passing grade or take specific subject matter exams with a requirement to pass a minimum proportion of them (e.g. 6 out of 9 given during your second year in residence). Different departments utilize each exam system. Pass exams under applicable system or get dropped from program.
3. Take propositional oral exam. Preparation usually requires about three months. This is often five of them (faculty) taking on one of you in a small closed room. Yes, it is is an exercise in intimidation. Here you play research advisor and design a program that someone else could complete to obtain their PhD. The research must have the potential to materially contribute to the science. Passing or failing is completely subjective and there is no appeal of a failed grade.
4. Perform endless research for 3 to 6 additional years under unsafe conditions while either teaching to support yourself or living a meager existance being supported on a stipend from a research grant. This means long hours and dangerous working conditions followed by more long hours waiting for instrument time, chemicals to arrive, experiments to cook, etc., etc., etc.............................................Very hard to negotiate an end to the research since once you are adept in the lab, there is an interest on the part of your advisor to keep you as cheap labor pumping out publishable research advisor agrandising material. Strong potential for endless abuse in this type of situation. Keep in mind that you actually need some new science that works. You cannot write a completely negative thesis. People often spend years searching for a new bit of technology that actually works.
5. Give departmental seminar. Read articles from the literature and give a public talk. Not a very useful exercise.
6. Write up and defend thesis.
7. Leave and never return or speak to anyone at the department where you did your graduate work. The bitterness runs that deep.
8. Try to find work. Any work. I mean any work at all. ................................................You mean I spent five (or six or seven or eight) years earning a graduate degree that does not qualify me as interesting to any employer outside of academics???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need some money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am going to be evicted from my roach infested hovel of an apartment if I dont come up with some coin NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
9. Drink heavily before applying at temp agency.

That is the PhD experience in a nutshell. Do not go here. Get an MD that actually gives you a chance to participate in the work force. Forget about respect for a PhD. Nobody cares about your degree.

 

[Wahoos]

Getting into an PhD program is easier than getting into an MD program. The difference is that for the MD program, the application usually range from 3500-8000 per school depending on the location and reputation (some less, like state schools that only accept in state students, ECU gets about 1000 apps or so...) My school receives almost 4000 apps per year, and offers interviews to 500 people, and offer acceptance to about 230-240 for the 139 spots. Most of the people we interview are in the 30s for MCAT (over 85% tile), 3.7 GPA or so, and coming from very good undergrads, with many many EC, leadership things, different life backgrounds,..... In contrast, the PhD department (depending on the field/program), gets on the average, less apps and lower GRE/GPA vs the MD apps. So I believe admissions into medical school is a lot harder than into PhD programs.

As to if MD is harder than PhD...... I have not done a phD program before, but I have finished my MD this year. Some of my best friends in the school are MD/PhD canidates, and they finish the 1st 2 years of basic sciences with me, then move on to the PhD cirriculum. I have asked them many times in the past if they felt the PhD was harder vs. the 1st 2 years of MD. The responses have been "PhD classes are a joke compared to the 1st two years of MD..." This is coming from 3 guys in my class. They also said the research is very "frustrating". Picking the right Mentor and lab will make the most difference in the experience you will have in your phD program. I guess it is very difficult to say which is harder or easier.... mostly depends on who you talk with. If you have not done the 1st 2 years of medical school and have not taken USMLE Step I, ... I can tell you that it is not as easy as "just memorization". There is so much material that you have to learn, and takes more than just memorizing thing to get through. In the same token, getting a phD is tough in a different way. You have to wait for results, do many experiments, tweek your methods all the time, analyze the data, then tweek your experiments again, and things always go wrong, so that you will have to go back and re do the experiment, then when you are ready to publish,.... there might be another lab that have the same data or similar that published before you, .... then back to the drawing board, or re anaylze the data and publish form another angle so that it is slightly different than the other lab's paper. I definitely did not even consider the phD route... and I did a year of research before medical school as well as in medical school just to get the experience.

 

[Learfan]

I think its PhD is easier to get into but a lot harder to get while MD is extremely hard to get into, but once you get in its almost certain you will graduate as an MD four years later. You can't say that about PhD.

Most graduate schools will accept anyone who can fog a mirror and has taken one class in the applicable subject matter to get you as a cheap teacher for undergrads. Only a few prestige schools in any given field have real standards. Been there, done that.

 

[gujuDoc]

As someone who acquired a PhD in chemistry, let me try to shed a little light on the process. In many programs, the progression through the requirements to be granted the degree look like this:

1. One year of full time classes taken while teaching undergrad classes to support yourself. GPA must be a 3.0 minimum. Strong pressure from research advisor to finish all classes during first year to get you into the lab as completely devoted slave labor ASAP.
2. Comprehensive exam taken at the end of first year with three chances to earn a passing grade or take specific subject matter exams with a requirement to pass a minimum proportion of them (e.g. 6 out of 9 given during your second year in residence). Different departments utilize each exam system. Pass exams under applicable system or get dropped from program.
3. Take propositional oral exam. Preparation usually requires about three months. This is often five of them (faculty) taking on one of you in a small closed room. Yes, it is is an exercise in intimidation. Here you play research advisor and design a program that someone else could complete to obtain their PhD. The research must have the potential to materially contribute to the science. Passing or failing is completely subjective and there is no appeal of a failed grade.
4. Perform endless research for 3 to 6 additional years under unsafe conditions while either teaching to support yourself or living a meager existance being supported on a stipend from a research grant. This means long hours and dangerous working conditions followed by more long hours waiting for instrument time, chemicals to arrive, experiments to cook, etc., etc., etc.............................................Very hard to negotiate an end to the research since once you are adept in the lab, there is an interest on the part of your advisor to keep you as cheap labor pumping out publishable research advisor agrandising material. Strong potential for endless abuse in this type of situation. Keep in mind that you actually need some new science that works. You cannot write a completely negative thesis. People often spend years searching for a new bit of technology that actually works.
5. Give departmental seminar. Read articles from the literature and give a public talk. Not a very useful exercise.
6. Write up and defend thesis.
7. Leave and never return or speak to anyone at the department where you did your graduate work. The bitterness runs that deep.
8. Try to find work. Any work. I mean any work at all. ................................................You mean I spent five (or six or seven or eight) years earning a graduate degree that does not qualify me as interesting to any employer outside of academics???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I need some money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am going to be evicted from my roach infested hovel of an apartment if I dont come up with some coin NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
9. Drink heavily before applying at temp agency.

That is the PhD experience in a nutshell. Do not go here. Get an MD that actually gives you a chance to participate in the work force. Forget about respect for a PhD. Nobody cares about your degree.

Wow that's rough. Just a quick question, I remember some time back you were saying its real hard to get a job in chemistry. Why is that??? I always thought it was easier to get a job with a chem degree or physics degree then with a bio degree. that is what I've heard on many occassions. Is it that it was tough to get some good name research positions????? Or was it just hard to get a job in general?????? Thanks in advance.

 

[Learfan]

Wow that's rough. Just a quick question, I remember some time back you were saying its real hard to get a job in chemistry. Why is that??? I always thought it was easier to get a job with a chem degree or physics degree then with a bio degree. that is what I've heard on many occassions. Is it that it was tough to get some good name research positions????? Or was it just hard to get a job in general?????? Thanks in advance.

There are very few jobs in research be it chemical, biological or physical. By self identifying as a PhD you are targeting those few research positions. Good luck.

 

[Gut Shot]

The MD is cake compared to the PhD. Really. I've done both.

Why does the PhD suck so hard? One simple, awful thing: you never know when it's going to end. That fact alone gradually erodes your will to live and grinds your soul into powder.

Sure, med school has times that suck. Cramming, taking exams, getting scutted, waking up at 4 a.m. These things all blow, but they occur according to a predetermined schedule. In the end you just hunker down, do your best, and let the waves of unpleasantness wash over you. Eventually they subside and you move on.

Not so with grad school. Its only saving grace is that if things get truly unbearable you can quit without worrying about having huge piles of debt. Were this not the case, I firmly believe the levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide among MD's would look like a sugar-coated candy land compared to the ranks of PhD students.

 

[gujuDoc]

PhD's: either Publish or Perrish.
MD's: what do you call the person graduating last in your class? Doctor!

With that said, I don't think you can really judge the two head to head.

So true!!!!! Many PhD's will only find very small things that will all add up long after they are gone to make something of real importance. Let us take the example of discovery of the DNA double helix stuff.

Watson and Crick did absolutely NO experimental work. But instead they used experimental work of others to draw their conclusions. So you can see how these other many experiments that resulted in such a good finding were not half as noticed as the end product by Watson and Crick.

Also, take into account that when huge discoveries do happen, it will take years to get patents so often times.....their products go sold for a very cheap price or are free. Hence, they don't gain much monetary gains for creating new things like PCR or new life saving drugs.

For instance, the guy that created PCR (Kerry Mullis---from Cali) did not make much money on the invention. Then you have people like one of my professor's Dr. Lim, who created Lim broth. Lim broth made detecting Group B Streptococcal infections much easier and has become a life saving technique used in hospitals. however, the professor that invented this did not make much money for it at all, because if he wanted it for money it would have meant having to wait several several years for patents to go through. So you can see where I'm going with this. There are not much financial rewards in research. If you go into research, you really need a different kind of patience then the kind needed to take care of patients.

But seriously, if you go in this field, you really better be willing to know that you may not even live to see the day where your efforts make a huge impact. You'd have to be content with small gains and be able to know that you might even find that it will be years before you get something good. And if you get something good, it might be by draw of luck. These are the things I've learned from doing undergrad research and getting to see that side of things. That said, though I have the utmost respect for researchers, I could never go into that field. I would go insane knowing that I may never really see anything come out of the work. Plus, I'm not into writing research papers. I like interacting with others and doing patient care better. But as an undergrad experience, it was definitely worth it just to see the other side of things. It was also worth it because you learned how to do a bunch of different procedures and what not. But definitely not my full time career choice.

 

[gujuDoc]

Wow that's rough. Just a quick question, I remember some time back you were saying its real hard to get a job in chemistry. Why is that??? I always thought it was easier to get a job with a chem degree or physics degree then with a bio degree. that is what I've heard on many occassions. Is it that it was tough to get some good name research positions????? Or was it just hard to get a job in general?????? Thanks in advance.

There are very few jobs in research be it chemical, biological or physical. By self identifying as a PhD you are targeting those few research positions. Good luck.

Oh ok. That makes sense now. I was just wondering because I knew a few people who were telling me that getting jobs such as industry jobs were easier to do with a bachelor's in chem then with a bachelor's in bio. I've heard this many times over and again. But I see what you are saying about PhD being a different story because you wouldn't just be doing lab work but actual higher end research work. Its more clear to me now.

 

[gujuDoc]

The MD is cake compared to the PhD. Really. I've done both.

Why does the PhD suck so hard? One simple, awful thing: you never know when it's going to end. That fact alone gradually erodes your will to live and grinds your soul into powder.

Sure, med school has times that suck. Cramming, taking exams, getting scutted, waking up at 4 a.m. These things all blow, but they occur according to a predetermined schedule. In the end you just hunker down, do your best, and let the waves of unpleasantness wash over you. Eventually they subside and you move on.

Not so with grad school. Its only saving grace is that if things get truly unbearable you can quit without worrying about having huge piles of debt. Were this not the case, I firmly believe the levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide among MD's would look like a sugar-coated candy land compared to the ranks of PhD students.

How true!!!!!!!! But I guess that's why they pay grad students, because they know they won't be making much money coming out of grad school. Well that is unless they find the cure to cancer and get a patent on their cure in a short time. Of which getting a patent in small turnover time is most likely unlikely, hence getting no monetary gain out of discoveries.

 

[Learfan]

The MD is cake compared to the PhD. Really. I've done both.

Why does the PhD suck so hard? One simple, awful thing: you never know when it's going to end. That fact alone gradually erodes your will to live and grinds your soul into powder.

Sure, med school has times that suck. Cramming, taking exams, getting scutted, waking up at 4 a.m. These things all blow, but they occur according to a predetermined schedule. In the end you just hunker down, do your best, and let the waves of unpleasantness wash over you. Eventually they subside and you move on.

Not so with grad school. Its only saving grace is that if things get truly unbearable you can quit without worrying about having huge piles of debt. Were this not the case, I firmly believe the levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide among MD's would look like a sugar-coated candy land compared to the ranks of PhD students.

Sir, you have earned my respect. You truly have been there and seen the devil and all of his demons.

You put your finger right on the problem. It is impossible to tell when grad school will finally END. The ambiguity grinds away at your very soul. We lost two students to suicide during my tenure in a grad program and several of my friends checked themselves into psychiatric facilities. It was scary to be around conditions that can shatter the minds of bright, devoted and seemingly normal people. Add to that the non-stop drug and alcohol abuse of those who seemed to be "coping" with the conditions around them. I could not wait to get out.

This is going to date me horribly but the day I left the state where I did grad school, I had a tape of Meatloaf's "Bat Out of Hell" in the tape deck. It seemed appropriate.

 

[anomic]

Phd's in the United States get ZERO respect and that can be seen from the dismal amounts of money they make. Before you scream, "money's not important if you love it blah blah blah," I'm saying it's very important on a group level. Many of the best and the brightest US citizens do not go into research and get Phd's. Why? B/c of the money! Similarly, the best and the brightest don't go into medicine in England (a country I hold citizenship in) b/c they get paid nill. That is why England has soooo many foregin doctors... to fill the void.

Likewise, if you go into any lab you will find many, if not mostly, foreign students. This is great for the US (we take the worlds brightest), but what will happen when globalization allows these students to stay in their own countries b/c the standard of living has increased there? Most analysts agree that the US will see a drop in foreign brain power. So, unless Phd's are paid more, Phd's will still have no prestige as a profession. I cringe at the thought of having all those brilliant East Asian and Indian immigrants no longer coming to the US b/c their countries will soon have the infrustructure to conduct serious science. These immigrants have always been the power behind American science. (Not to sound biased towards East Asians, I also point out Einstein and all the other German's who contributed greatly to the US).

Please excuse my spelling and grammer mistakes... not proof-read.

 

[pseudoknot]

Wow, this hasn't gone to hell yet. I'm pleasantly surprised. Let me just comment on Learfan's post. That sounds horrendous, and I'm sorry anyone has to go through that. However, that's not the universal experience of a PhD student. My program (in biology) has been completely the opposite. We have to TA one quarter per year, and most of our TAships are very little work. We have almost no class requirements. We do have a written test and oral exam on our thesis proposals at the end of our second year, but neither of these is arduous and you basically have to be a real f***-up to fail. My department is very good about getting people out in reasonable time frames and most people lately get out in 5-6 years (I anticipate 4.5, but I had a fast moving project).

Of course, I'm still sick of it and want to get out ASAP, mainly because basic science seems like a pointless waste of effort to me most of the time. I'm not saying it is, but it's really not right for my personality.

Anyway, different people are good at different things...you'll find plenty of people who would be successful in science and not medicine, and vice versa. The OP's question doesn't have an answer that applies to everyone.

 

[Learfan]

Phd's in the United States get ZERO respect and that can be seen from the dismal amounts of money they make. Before you scream, "money's not important if you love it blah blah blah," I'm saying it's very important on a group level. Many of the best and the brightest US citizens do not go into research and get Phd's. Why? B/c of the money! Similarly, the best and the brightest don't go into medicine in England (a country I hold citizenship in) b/c they get paid nill. That is why England has soooo many foregin doctors... to fill the void.

Likewise, if you go into any lab you will find many, if not mostly, foreign students. This is great for the US (we take the worlds brightest), but what will happen when globalization allows these students to stay in their own countries b/c the standard of living has increased there? Most analysts agree that the US will see a drop in foreign brain power. So, unless Phd's are paid more, Phd's will still have no prestige as a profession. I cringe at the thought of having all those brilliant East Asian and Indian immigrants no longer coming to the US b/c their countries will soon have the infrustructure to conduct serious science. These immigrants have always been the power behind American science. (Not to sound biased towards East Asians, I also point out Einstein and all the other German's who contributed greatly to the US).

Please excuse my spelling and grammer mistakes... not proof-read.

Just wait till we all see what the future holds. Many companies in oil, computers and other technically sophisticated fields are gradually transfering research operations over to India. There has been a very successful movement to raise the standard of living on the Indian subcontinent through enhancing the availability of highly trained scientists and engineers who can afford to live well on a salary that would not work for someone in the United States, Western Europe or Japan. I mean engineers who will happily work a 40 to 50 hour week for $9 to $10 K per year. Soon the market for PhD level people in the United States will shrink still further.

 

[xanthines]

Zero respect? I fear you exaggerate. Sure PhD's get paid less MD's, but I'd say they definitely get more respect than a lot of jobs. I agree with the rest of your post, though. Spot on.

-X

Phd's in the United States get ZERO respect and that can be seen from the dismal amounts of money they make. Before you scream, "money's not important if you love it blah blah blah," I'm saying it's very important on a group level. Many of the best and the brightest US citizens do not go into research and get Phd's. Why? B/c of the money! Similarly, the best and the brightest don't go into medicine in England (a country I hold citizenship in) b/c they get paid nill. That is why England has soooo many foregin doctors... to fill the void.

Likewise, if you go into any lab you will find many, if not mostly, foreign students. This is great for the US (we take the worlds brightest), but what will happen when globalization allows these students to stay in their own countries b/c the standard of living has increased there? Most analysts agree that the US will see a drop in foreign brain power. So, unless Phd's are paid more, Phd's will still have no prestige as a profession. I cringe at the thought of having all those brilliant East Asian and Indian immigrants no longer coming to the US b/c their countries will soon have the infrustructure to conduct serious science. These immigrants have always been the power behind American science. (Not to sound biased towards East Asians, I also point out Einstein and all the other German's who contributed greatly to the US).

Please excuse my spelling and grammer mistakes... not proof-read.

 

[anomic]

Just wait till we all see what the future holds. Many companies in oil, computers and other technically sophisticated fields are gradually transfering research operations over to India. There has been a very successful movement to raise the standard of living on the Indian subcontinent through enhancing the availability of highly trained scientists and engineers who can afford to live well on a salary that would not work for someone in the United States, Western Europe or Japan. I mean engineers who will happily work a 40 to 50 hour week for $9 to $10 K per year. Soon the market for PhD level people in the United States will shrink still further.

I agree with you Learfan.. other industries will and are exported to other countires. There is one big difference with Phd's however: The US has the most extensive and advanced university system in the world. No one comes even close. I have spent a good portion of my life in W. Europe and I can say from first hand experience that even the European system is nothing like the US. Also, no other country comes close to funding research like the US. For every 1 dollar we spend on health care we give 11 cents to research. That is a TON of money. W. Eupore only gives around 3-5 cents and has a smaller bugdet. This is changing in East Asian countries (like Singapour (sp) which is activley puruing a research infrastructure) and I worry about the day when the US experiences a brain drain for the first time. We MUST keep foreign and US scientists here and increasing the salaries is the only way I can see this happening.

(Again, not spell-checked or proof read).

 

[gujuDoc]

Sir, you have earned my respect. You truly have been there and seen the devil and all of his demons.

You put your finger right on the problem. It is impossible to tell when grad school will finally END. The ambiguity grinds away at your very soul. We lost two students to suicide during my tenure in a grad program and several of my friends checked themselves into psychiatric facilities. It was scary to be around conditions that can shatter the minds of bright, devoted and seemingly normal people. Add to that the non-stop drug and alcohol abuse of those who seemed to be "coping" with the conditions around them. I could not wait to get out.

This is going to date me horribly but the day I left the state where I did grad school, I had a tape of Meatloaf's "Bat Out of Hell" in the tape deck. It seemed appropriate.

Wow those images you gave just creep the hell out of me. Reminds me of the creepiness of the VA research labs where I used to work before. They used to creep me out because of the way they treated the rats. They would sac the heads of the rats in little rat guillotines and let the rats live in their own feces without cleaning the cages. it was like a dungeon on many levels.

 

[45408]

I think its PhD is easier to get into but a lot harder to get while MD is extremely hard to get into, but once you get in its almost certain you will graduate as an MD four years later. You can't say that about PhD.

My research professor told me almost exactly that. He said that the herd is culled before med school but after grad school. Plenty of people get a PhD and are never able to land a tenured position, but few people get an MD and find themselves unemployed.

Difficulty is just too subjective.

 

[Learfan]

Wow, this hasn't gone to hell yet. I'm pleasantly surprised. Let me just comment on Learfan's post. That sounds horrendous, and I'm sorry anyone has to go through that. However, that's not the universal experience of a PhD student. My program (in biology) has been completely the opposite. We have to TA one quarter per year, and most of our TAships are very little work. We have almost no class requirements. We do have a written test and oral exam on our thesis proposals at the end of our second year, but neither of these is arduous and you basically have to be a real f***-up to fail. My department is very good about getting people out in reasonable time frames and most people lately get out in 5-6 years (I anticipate 4.5, but I had a fast moving project).

Of course, I'm still sick of it and want to get out ASAP, mainly because basic science seems like a pointless waste of effort to me most of the time. I'm not saying it is, but it's really not right for my personality.

Anyway, different people are good at different things...you'll find plenty of people who would be successful in science and not medicine, and vice versa. The OP's question doesn't have an answer that applies to everyone.

No, the abuse is not universal. Based upon my discussions with other chemistry, physics and engineering PhDs, 40 to 50 percent regarded their graduate experience as poor or very poor. The remainder report the experience as somewhat stressful or just plain dull.

 

[GasEmDee]

I have done both, and i *WHOLEHEARTEDLY* agree with Havarti. You never know when you will be done. Your advisor can make your road easy, or he can make it unbearable. It is often hard to know what category your advisor fits in until you are committed to (and stuck with) working with him. With the MD, you will be done one day....each day is inexorable progress towards completion. With the PhD, you can spend years and get no closer to the end.

I'd have to say that working a 30-something hour shift and waking up at 4am pales in comparison to the fear that you will rot away years in graduate school and end up with nothing to show for it. I dont mind working hard...but its miserable if all those hours of work were in vain.

The MD is cake compared to the PhD. Really. I've done both.

Why does the PhD suck so hard? One simple, awful thing: you never know when it's going to end. That fact alone gradually erodes your will to live and grinds your soul into powder.

Sure, med school has times that suck. Cramming, taking exams, getting scutted, waking up at 4 a.m. These things all blow, but they occur according to a predetermined schedule. In the end you just hunker down, do your best, and let the waves of unpleasantness wash over you. Eventually they subside and you move on.

Not so with grad school. Its only saving grace is that if things get truly unbearable you can quit without worrying about having huge piles of debt. Were this not the case, I firmly believe the levels of depression, substance abuse and suicide among MD's would look like a sugar-coated candy land compared to the ranks of PhD students.

 

[vicinihil]

Here is all I have to say:

MD is harder to get into and work like hell to come out doing well (passing boards, USMLE and stuff liek taht finding residencies), PhD seems like just time dedication and a bunch of luck and innovation on the part of a research thesis. Post-doc doesn't seem all that hard to find since the scientific community expands perpetually. Ofcourse it depends what you have a PhD in but if you're a PhD youre either a PI or a teacher. Take your pick.

A PhD is poor and starving

 

[GasEmDee]

You speak of "time dedication" as if it were trivial. There are lots of people who spend 6-8 years or more getting a PhD, then graduate and find no jobs waiting. I wouldnt say 6-8 years is "just time dedication." Medical school divides the work into chunks that you can bite off. Yes there are many points that require major physical stamina...but most people make it through. Graduate school leaves it to each student to scope and manage their work. There are advisors who have almost no participation in their students work, and some graduate students can meander for years at a time.

Here is all I have to say:

MD is harder to get into and work like hell to come out doing well (passing boards, USMLE and stuff liek taht finding residencies), PhD seems like just time dedication and a bunch of luck and innovation on the part of a research thesis. Post-doc doesn't seem all that hard to find since the scientific community expands perpetually. Ofcourse it depends what you have a PhD in but if you're a PhD youre either a PI or a teacher. Take your pick.

A PhD is poor and starving

 

[Learfan]

I have done both, and i *WHOLEHEARTEDLY* agree with Havarti. You never know when you will be done. Your advisor can make your road easy, or he can make it unbearable. It is often hard to know what category your advisor fits in until you are committed to (and stuck with) working with him. With the MD, you will be done one day....each day is inexorable progress towards completion. With the PhD, you can spend years and get no closer to the end.

I'd have to say that working a 30-something hour shift and waking up at 4am pales in comparison to the fear that you will rot away years in graduate school and end up with nothing to show for it. I dont mind working hard...but its miserable if all those hours of work were in vain.

Amen, brother. I had a research advisor who seemed hard but fair. Big name at the time. After you joined the group, it got ugly fast. Non-stop demands for more work even after you had landed a job which often took two or more years of interviewing. Students left in the middle of the night when they were told by an employer "Be here tomorrow or you no longer have employment" These people took one to two additional years to write up at night.

Or we can talk about the discrimination between students. My advisor was drawn to a student who seemed to be a younger version of himself. Athletic, married in grad school, going into academics, etc. Somehow this student managed to receive a double stipend, one from the research grant and one from the ACS student honors program. After all, he really needed the extra support. His wife was an RN, completely unemployable and unable to contribute to the support of the family. Together these two made as much in grad school as I made in my first job with a major oil company post degree.

Or we can talk about the endlessly recycled research ideas from hell that had already consumed dozens of man years of work that were offered to the unsuspecting new grad student. Like he was going to come up with the idea that was going to crack that field of research wide open? I don't think so. It just meant that this poor unsuspecting individual was now on the seven year degree program. After wasting two years on the recycled idea, he then had to start the research process all over again with something fresh that had a chance of working.

PhD programs are just a private fief where faculty have the freedom to behave like the local king and the grad students get treated like serfs. Best to avoid such places and keep both your freedom and self respect.

 

[LJDHC05]

Knowing the post-docs I do, I'd say that it isnt easy because you're still not established in the field and you make NO money and get very little respect. Plus you're trying to get funding so you can get on your own two feet and this year funds through the NIH and NSF cover about 30% of the applicants and most of that goes to established investigators and the very top of the new investigators, not the average post doc. PLUS many post docs start their families after finishing school and are stressed with new kids and dont get to see them because they're fighting grand deadlines etc.

I dont think that there is a competition between the two, they both are VERY hard lifestyles and take a long time to earn degrees and even longer to earn respect and money.

 

[Mixtli]

I have two stories to share:

1) My dad did graduate school for 8 years eventually getting a Ph.d. I did not remember my dad growing up because he would come home very late after endless experiments and then study for his coursework. After 8 years of research, he did 7 years of post-doc publishing several papers, but leading no where because of his PI sucked. In the end, he regretted it all, and is now a patent officer making 75 grand, after 15 years of making only 40 grand, barely enough to raise a family.

2) My aunt recieved her doctorate overseas before immigrating to America. She decided to become an American licensed doctor. She studied 5 years so far for the boards Step I and II, seperated from her two kids and husband. She still has a couple more years before she can become a resident. And then a couple more years before becoming a practicing doctor.

MD and PH.d are both long, arduous process. Its only a matter if you want to be biatch for your PI or for humanity. Choose your poison.

 

[Steiner]

Your success depends on both you and your advisor.

Sparky

I'll have to agree with this especially. Most people that are in Ph.D. programs for a long period of time are there because their advisor is unsupportive or on sabbatical, not because the program is especially difficult.

 

[Sparky Man]

Here is all I have to say:

MD is harder to get into and work like hell to come out doing well (passing boards, USMLE and stuff liek taht finding residencies), PhD seems like just time dedication and a bunch of luck and innovation on the part of a research thesis. Post-doc doesn't seem all that hard to find since the scientific community expands perpetually. Ofcourse it depends what you have a PhD in but if you're a PhD youre either a PI or a teacher. Take your pick.

A PhD is poor and starving

No, finding a good postdoc is difficult. Most of the PhD's I know went into industry (not a PI or teacher) and make 60-90k (that's not starving).

Sorry, but the PhD is NOT what you describe.

 

[bor0000]

of course ph.d. is harder and more respected.(assuming you do become professor, that is get a ph.d. from a prestigious school). most premeds never even take any courses beyond the undergrad level... i am sure medschool is hard and all, but all the courses there are on the level of undergrad.

on the other hand, quantum field theory-> hot.

 

[bor0000]

sure most doctors make more than ph.d.'s. most gas station owners do too. but ph.d's have the most noble education, by far.

 

[bor0000]

you all talk about time dedication. but volume does not equal quality. ph.d's do innovative research... any physical science ph.d. could handle med school if he tried hard, but most med students wouldnt even be able to handle graduate level courses in hard sciences(that is not ph.d. but masters level), not to mention the research part. and even humanities ph.d's-they are remarkably eloquent, hence they stand out from the rest of the population. while most md's only stand out with their egos and hard work and ambitions...

 

[UCSBMed1]

you all talk about time dedication. but volume does not equal quality. ph.d's do innovative research... any physical science ph.d. could handle med school if he tried hard, but most med students wouldnt even be able to handle graduate level courses in hard sciences(that is not ph.d. but masters level), not to mention the research part. and even humanities ph.d's-they are remarkably eloquent, hence they stand out from the rest of the population. while most md's only stand out with their egos and hard work and ambitions...

Are you for real?

 

[Medikit]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected.

This has been a hot topic of conversation amongst practicing MDs and PhDs for ages!

 

[rpkall]

I personally think a PhD offers more of a continued intellectual challenge, where an MD involves a lot of memorization.

That said, being a good physician is a really expansive and difficult lifelong journey--it combines the intellectual with the psychological--you must develop and hone interpersonal skills and the ability to handle stressful situations calmly (not to mention deal with life, death, the best and the worst of humanity). It can be scary as well as rewarding. Many grad students I've met, who are amazing when it comes to protein crystallization or modeling ion channels, wouldn't be able to effectively deal with a dying patient or their family members. And many med students, conversely, wouldn't know what to do with a PCR machine to save their lives (myself included).

 

[EvoDevo]

Phd's in the United States get ZERO respect and that can be seen from the dismal amounts of money they make. Before you scream, "money's not important if you love it blah blah blah," I'm saying it's very important on a group level. Many of the best and the brightest US citizens do not go into research and get Phd's. Why? B/c of the money! Similarly, the best and the brightest don't go into medicine in England (a country I hold citizenship in) b/c they get paid nill. That is why England has soooo many foregin doctors... to fill the void.

Likewise, if you go into any lab you will find many, if not mostly, foreign students. This is great for the US (we take the worlds brightest), but what will happen when globalization allows these students to stay in their own countries b/c the standard of living has increased there? Most analysts agree that the US will see a drop in foreign brain power. So, unless Phd's are paid more, Phd's will still have no prestige as a profession. I cringe at the thought of having all those brilliant East Asian and Indian immigrants no longer coming to the US b/c their countries will soon have the infrustructure to conduct serious science. These immigrants have always been the power behind American science. (Not to sound biased towards East Asians, I also point out Einstein and all the other German's who contributed greatly to the US).

Please excuse my spelling and grammer mistakes... not proof-read.

Outstanding post. I was ranting about the same thing yesterday.

Also props to Havarti and LearFan. Though I only came for a research-based MS, I experienced almost all of the same experiences writ smaller. It IS soul-grinding. Though I thought seriously about staying for a PhD, the condidtions during and after grad school which y'all described helped me to decide against it.

 

[tigress]

Reading this thread reminds me of all the reasons I left my PhD program. I haven't had any regrets . Well, perhaps a bit of mourning for the intellectual nature of grad school. Not nearly enough to make me consider getting back in a lab anytime soon.

 

[1Path]

MD and PH.d are both long, arduous process. Its only a matter if you want to be biatch for your PI or for humanity. Choose your poison.

This statement makes MD/PhD students seem absolutely insane!

And anyone whose been to grad school particularily in a hard core science, knows getting a PhD is by far harder than getting an MD.

 

[samdwi]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician?

MD and PHD: Two different beasts. I've applied to both and have been accepted to both. MD/DO training is largely memorization the first two years. The material is not conceptually difficult, theres just SO MUCH OF IT.

PhD training is largely conceptually difficult stuff - especailly after the first year when you've finished the basic courses. You have to design experiemnts, design your own instruments and rig up extravagant contraptions - all requires a very good science background with firm roots, if not a degree, in engineering. In MD/DO stuff, once you begin your practice, you are the boss in a manner of speaking. In PhD, once your post-doc is done, everyone including your mentor will take every opportunity to knock or criticize your work. PhD training and career is a lot more competitive - competition is based on your innate creativity and intelligence. Medical training is competitive - but competition is based on your ability to put in long hours and remember stuff (these are generalizations...don't PM me with comebacks).

MD is not tougher than PhD and vice-versa. The two are different streams and usually require different aptitudes. However, the science of medicine would not have advanced without either.

 

[bwells46]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she said that getting a PhD is harder and that they are more respected. What do you all think? Obviously they are hard in their own different ways. I dont know too much about what it takes to get a PhD, but I imagine its got to be pretty hard. What are the toughest parts of getting one? What are considered to be the hardest part of going through becoming a physician?

I've talked with some MD, PhD people and they generally say that the MD was harder to get into but the PhD was harder to earn.