Which MD schools have OMM electives

Started by corpsman33
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

Browse articles Compare schools My application plan Read Interview Feedback
Practice for interviews Ask an Advisor
corpsman33

corpsman33

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
So I have been accepted to one DO school and have multiple interviews at others, but I just recently received an interview invite to the University of Wisconsin (Madison) which is an MD school.

The University of Wisconsin is a great medical school that is nearly top 20 (it was tied 26 in research with the Mayo clinic by U.S. News) and I think I would be a fool to not go here if I got in. The school and city seem awesome and I know I would have more options to specialize as an MD than I would as a DO (although I am not too concerned about this because I want to do Emergency Medicine which is very DO friendly). However, I really wanted to learn OMM/OMT because my wife has constant back pain for years and I really think the technique could help alleviate her pain (vs. taking pain medication).

My question is, Does the University of Wisconsin have an OMT elective?

Also, what other MD schools have OMT electives?
 
I'm interested in knowing this, too. I don't know if many schools offer it as a formal elective for current students, but like Catalystik said OMM is widely available as a CME course for practicing physicians.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Something like only 15% of DO's actually use OMM from what I remember. What's your reason for wanting to learn this?
 
ppfizenm said:
Isn't practicing on family members unethical?
Click to expand...

I feel like practicing on family members is unethical when your emotions may get in the way of important care. Like if your child has some sort of life threatening infection, you should probably pass his/her care on to a colleague who can separate his/her self from the emotion of it all. You don't need your emotions getting in the way of rational care.

But if you're merely wanting to adjust your wife's back, to help with chronic pain I don't personally see anything wrong with that at all.

SLC
 
SLC said:
I feel like practicing on family members is unethical when your emotions may get in the way of important care. Like if your child has some sort of life threatening infection, you should probably pass his/her care on to a colleague who can separate his/her self from the emotion of it all. You don't need your emotions getting in the way of rational care.

But if you're merely wanting to adjust your wife's back, to help with chronic pain I don't personally see anything wrong with that at all.

SLC
Click to expand...

Sometimes, we can be too blind to the complete differential diagnosis when dealing with a family member... trying to put the "worst case" out of our mind and thinking only of the common, easily treated possibilities. A community doc I knew treated his adult daughter (a life-long smoker) for bronchitis for an entire winter. She didn't seem to improve. He finally referred her to another doctor who ordered a chest x-ray, etc & found lung cancer. She died -- she was in her early 40s.
 
gmcguitar4 said:
Trust me, OMM won't do krap.
Click to expand...

Ummm OK? I trust you 😉

OMM is extremely effective for this type of stuff (OP's wife's back pain), whether you believe in it or not. I'm a DO student, and I'm not that jazzed about OMM to be honest, but I can't deny it's effectiveness in certain situations. Will I involve it in my future practice? Probably not much, it's very time consuming. But will I completely write it off as ineffective pseudoscience like some seem to be excited to do? Absolutely not!

Patient's want this type of treatment, they seek it out! People in our country spend more on alternative therapies than they do on primary care, which signals to me that they're looking for something better. OMM is often an example of just that, something better. When applied properly and correctly it can be very efficacious without the use of surgical or pharmacological therapy (which if we're honest, we all know those are less desirable options for the treatment of non-cancerous MSK issues).

I realize that this is probably the most hostile section of the forums to talk about this since you're all probably very anti-DO at the moment and gunning for that "elite" MD seat. So I'll leave it at that. I don't want to derail the thread, just thought it might be nice to have someone with some first-hand experience chime in to balance out the usual poorly-informed detractors.
 
LizzyM said:
Sometimes, we can be too blind to the complete differential diagnosis when dealing with a family member... trying to put the "worst case" out of our mind and thinking only of the common, easily treated possibilities. A community doc I knew treated his adult daughter (a life-long smoker) for bronchitis for an entire winter. She didn't seem to improve. He finally referred her to another doctor who ordered a chest x-ray, etc & found lung cancer. She died -- she was in her early 40s.
Click to expand...

Well there's another great example. So then Lizzy, what's your take on treating a family member's back pain with OMM at home? I think it's fine, but I'd be interested in hearing your opinion seeing as you're much farther along in your career than I am.

SLC
 
SLC said:
I don't want to derail the thread, just thought it might be nice to have someone with some first-hand experience chime in to balance out the usual poorly-informed detractors.
Click to expand...
Actually, I would be interested in peer-reviewed, controlled studies demonstrating the efficacy of OMM over placebo "manipulation" (i.e. back-cracking, etc. that does not follow OMM training). That would be much more valuable than either "first-hand experience" (i.e. anecdotal evidence) or poorly-informed detractors.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
SLC said:
Well there's another great example. So then Lizzy, what's your take on treating a family member's back pain with OMM at home? I think it's fine, but I'd be interested in hearing your opinion seeing as you're much farther along in your career than I am.

SLC
Click to expand...
It's back pain. After you screen them for malignancy and any contraindications I don't see much ability to get side-tracked by emotions.
 
SLC said:
Well there's another great example. So then Lizzy, what's your take on treating a family member's back pain with OMM at home? I think it's fine, but I'd be interested in hearing your opinion seeing as you're much farther along in your career than I am.

SLC
Click to expand...

I used to attend weekly resident conferences and the message from senior faculty to residents was:

Don't treat your family.

Don't treat yourself.

Don't prescribe medications for yourself.
 
theseeker4 said:
Actually, I would be interested in peer-reviewed, controlled studies demonstrating the efficacy of OMM over placebo "manipulation" (i.e. back-cracking, etc. that does not follow OMM training). That would be much more valuable than either "first-hand experience" (i.e. anecdotal evidence) or poorly-informed detractors.
Click to expand...

It's already been shown, actually. I have the study saved somewhere on my computer (had to write a paper on it), so I'll find it later. But ya, it's been demonstrated to be more effective for lower back-pain over placebo.
 
It is a placebo effect. I shadowed a DO that did his residency in OMM and I saw him treat patients with a bunch of techniques. After the treatment he asked, feel better?. They would pause and then say, yes(all mental). They would just come in every few weeks for an expensive massage. He explained a showed me the techniques as well as performed on me for this sharp pain in my foot that arises sometimes. From the start, I wasn't convinced, hence the treatment wasn't effective on me. I feel its more of a comfort measure than an actual treatment. I actually think that it is something that would be a great supplement to "real" treatment, but as a treatment in itself, no.
 
gmcguitar4 said:
It is a placebo effect. I shadowed a DO that did his residency in OMM and I saw him treat patients with a bunch of techniques. After the treatment he asked, feel better?. They would pause and then say, yes(all mental). They would just come in every few weeks for an expensive massage. He explained a showed me the techniques as well as performed on me for this sharp pain in my foot that arises sometimes. From the start, I wasn't convinced, hence the treatment wasn't effective on me. I feel its more of a comfort measure than an actual treatment. I actually think that it is something that would be a great supplement to "real" treatment, but as a treatment in itself, no.
Click to expand...

I've always wanted to give acupuncture a try.
 
LizzyM said:
I used to attend weekly resident conferences and the message from senior faculty to residents was:

Don't treat your family.

Don't treat yourself.

Don't prescribe medications for yourself.
Click to expand...

I've heard physicians say this before. I didn't know they could prescribe medications for themselves though.
 
gmcguitar4 said:
It is a placebo effect. I shadowed a DO that did his residency in OMM and I saw him treat patients with a bunch of techniques. After the treatment he asked, feel better?. They would pause and then say, yes(all mental). They would just come in every few weeks for an expensive massage. He explained a showed me the techniques as well as performed on me for this sharp pain in my foot that arises sometimes. From the start, I wasn't convinced, hence the treatment wasn't effective on me. I feel its more of a comfort measure than an actual treatment. I actually think that it is something that would be a great supplement to "real" treatment, but as a treatment in itself, no.
Click to expand...
See, the problem is, you're a pre-medical student and he has >5400 hours (45 weeks a year X 3 years X 40 hrs a week) in OMM/NMM training. If he wanted to massage patients and not practice any clinical judgement, he would have gone to massage school or chiropractic school.
 
gmcguitar4 said:
It is a placebo effect. I shadowed a DO that did his residency in OMM and I saw him treat patients with a bunch of techniques. After the treatment he asked, feel better?. They would pause and then say, yes(all mental). They would just come in every few weeks for an expensive massage. He explained a showed me the techniques as well as performed on me for this sharp pain in my foot that arises sometimes. From the start, I wasn't convinced, hence the treatment wasn't effective on me. I feel its more of a comfort measure than an actual treatment. I actually think that it is something that would be a great supplement to "real" treatment, but as a treatment in itself, no.
Click to expand...

Anecdotes are neither useful data when they argue for, nor against, something being effective. A skeptic could easily argue that your obvious disbelief in the effectiveness of the procedure nullified its effects in a sort of nocebo response. Even with that methodological problem aside, an N of 1 is exactly useless. Show me a proper blinded study and I'll pay attention.
 
phltz said:
Anecdotes are neither useful data when they argue for, nor against, something being effective. A skeptic could easily argue that your obvious disbelief in the effectiveness of the procedure nullified its effects in a sort of nocebo response. Even with that methodological problem aside, an N of 1 is exactly useless. Show me a proper blinded study and I'll pay attention.
Click to expand...
And how would you completely blind a study of OMM? The patient "knows" they're getting treatment and so does the physician. You can't have a lay person provide treatment. Not only will it not be provided correctly, if not properly screened the patient could be hurt.

You can't completely blind the study. Ever. I think this is a real cop out saying "show me a double blind study or even a blind study or I'll NEVER believe you."
 
phltz said:
Anecdotes are neither useful data when they argue for, nor against, something being effective. A skeptic could easily argue that your obvious disbelief in the effectiveness of the procedure nullified its effects in a sort of nocebo response. Even with that methodological problem aside, an N of 1 is exactly useless. Show me a proper blinded study and I'll pay attention.
Click to expand...


Well for medicine, treatments are guilty until proven innocent. Most research on OMM is regarded as low grade or poor quality. They are usually qualitative reports. So the lack of evidence speaks for itself. As I said, I think if it makes a patient feel more comfortable then it is a great to use as a supplement to treatment.
 
Let me get this straight, OP wants to be an MD who knows OMM just so he can treat his wife's back pain? You do realize that you'll probably be able to afford insurance and chiropractors as a doctor, and that there are other people in the world who can probably help her more than you ever could. I can't even comprehend why someone would want to do this. Not sure if trolling or...
 
Bacchus said:
And how would you completely blind a study of OMM? The patient "knows" they're getting treatment and so does the physician. You can't have a lay person provide treatment. Not only will it not be provided correctly, if not properly screened the patient could be hurt.

You can't completely blind the study. Ever. I think this is a real cop out saying "show me a double blind study or even a blind study or I'll NEVER believe you."
Click to expand...

I said blind, not double blind. A trained OMM practitioner can certainly give real OMM treatment to some subjects and a sham treatment to others.
 
AZFutureDoc said:
Let me get this straight, OP wants to be an MD who knows OMM just so he can treat his wife's back pain? You do realize that you'll probably be able to afford insurance and chiropractors as a doctor, and that there are other people in the world who can probably help her more than you ever could. I can't even comprehend why someone would want to do this. Not sure if trolling or...
Click to expand...

Based on what I know of the OP, he does realize these things. Not a troll. Are you sure you're not?
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
corpsman33 said:
So I have been accepted to one DO school and have multiple interviews at others, but I just recently received an interview invite to the University of Wisconsin (Madison) which is an MD school.

The University of Wisconsin is a great medical school that is nearly top 20 (it was tied 26 in research with the Mayo clinic by U.S. News) and I think I would be a fool to not go here if I got in. The school and city seem awesome and I know I would have more options to specialize as an MD than I would as a DO (although I am not too concerned about this because I want to do Emergency Medicine which is very DO friendly). However, I really wanted to learn OMM/OMT because my wife has constant back pain for years and I really think the technique could help alleviate her pain (vs. taking pain medication).

My question is, Does the University of Wisconsin have an OMT elective?

Also, what other MD schools have OMT electives?
Click to expand...

Go to UWisc, pay for OMM by someone who practices it regularly.
 
LizzyM said:
I used to attend weekly resident conferences and the message from senior faculty to residents was:

Don't treat your family.

Don't treat yourself.

Don't prescribe medications for yourself.
Click to expand...

OMM is benign. Doesn't involve medications. Probably the only treatment modality that would fall outside of the usual family/medicine treatment line.
 
AZFutureDoc said:
Let me get this straight, OP wants to be an MD who knows OMM just so he can treat his wife's back pain? You do realize that you'll probably be able to afford insurance and chiropractors as a doctor, and that there are other people in the world who can probably help her more than you ever could. I can't even comprehend why someone would want to do this. Not sure if trolling or...
Click to expand...


Not trolling at all.

I am in the Navy (enlisted right now), but I will hopefully be a Navy Doc in 4 years (officer). I will not be making nearly the same amount of money as my civilian counter-parts. I have already considered having my wife seek outside treatment and she has seen a chiropractor. It helped her greatly. I can no longer afford such treatments with my three children and wife to support on an E-5 salary. Even as an O-3e I will never be "wealthy". The military will provide chiropractic treatments for active duty members but not for their dependents.

Also, if the chiropractor worked well for my wife (wish I could continue), such treatments might be effective for others. I was currious to learn. Just as I am currious to learn about numerous specialties in the medical field. I am sure I will narrow down my choices during third and fourth year, but as for now OMM is something that peaks my curriosity.

I wasn't trying to turn this thread into an MD vs. DO flame war. I have immense respect for both options and am well aware that few DO's utilize OMM in their everyday practice. I was just trying to see if other schools besides Harvard offered the training.


Also, thanks Mauberley for showing some common sense 🙂.
 
ppfizenm said:
No one implies you would hurt anyone doing it. They are saying that treating family is unethical bc of what you may miss or unnecessarily do.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm aware. But I feel like that adage generally applies to treating a family member's disease due to your (potentially) clouded judgement. I'd argue that OMM for chronic lower back pain doesn't necessarily fall into that same realm, at least IMO.
 
Bacchus said:
And how would you completely blind a study of OMM? The patient "knows" they're getting treatment and so does the physician. You can't have a lay person provide treatment. Not only will it not be provided correctly, if not properly screened the patient could be hurt.

You can't completely blind the study. Ever. I think this is a real cop out saying "show me a double blind study or even a blind study or I'll NEVER believe you."
Click to expand...
No more of a cop-out than "I was trained in this (and believe in it) so you should trust me, it works."

It was already stated above, but a blind-patient study, where a OMM-trained physician provided real OMM to some patients and "massaged" others would be interesting to see, though I can't say I would know how to design it to control for all variables. I would want to see one, of course, that includes DO's who don't "believe" in OMM to try to avoid intentional/subconscious cues to the patients to help them differentiate between the real a fake treatment.

I don't believe in OMM, and I don't disbelieve it either. I would simply need some more evidence that it works (better than a placebo) than testimonials.
 
Cochrane review of spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) for treatment of low back pain

The results of this review demonstrate that SMT appears to be as effective as other common therapies prescribed for chronic low-back pain, such as, exercise therapy, standard medical care or physiotherapy. However, it is less clear how it compares to inert interventions or sham (placebo) treatment because there are only a few studies, typically with a high risk of bias, which investigated these factors. Approximately two-thirds of the studies had a high risk of bias, which means we cannot be completely confident with their results. Furthermore, no serious complications were observed with SMT.

In summary, SMT appears to be no better or worse than other existing therapies for patients with chronic low-back pain.


http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab008112.html
 
LizzyM said:
Cochrane review of spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) for treatment of low back pain

The results of this review demonstrate that SMT appears to be as effective as other common therapies prescribed for chronic low-back pain, such as, exercise therapy, standard medical care or physiotherapy. However, it is less clear how it compares to inert interventions or sham (placebo) treatment because there are only a few studies, typically with a high risk of bias, which investigated these factors. Approximately two-thirds of the studies had a high risk of bias, which means we cannot be completely confident with their results. Furthermore, no serious complications were observed with SMT.

In summary, SMT appears to be no better or worse than other existing therapies for patients with chronic low-back pain.


http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab008112.html
Click to expand...

LizzyM coming through with authority and evidence!

Thanks LizzyM!!!
 
Osteopathy in the cranial field – a brief summary of current evidence
(pdf 66Kb)

http://www.brighton.ac.uk/ncor/osteo_research/index.htm

This research summary basically repeats what I said regarding this particular field.

The problem is funding. They do not receive nearly as much funding as other research endeavors. As a result, you see study subject numbers <100 at few sites. If you use 20 study subjects and 8-10 of them had improved outcomes, it still does not show much. Much of the research goes unpublished and reproducibility of results remains low.

I manage 3 clinical studies at a hospital that each enrolled 1500-3000 subjects worldwide. One of them will probably see more results than any # OMM publications will.

A majority of the techniques, even after multiple publications, are still considered to be theoretical concepts and not widely accepted. I am sure there might be a couple of techniques that may show good results for certain problems but as a whole, it doesn't look to good. They show improved outcomes how? why? Nobody knows, even after 100 years of investigation.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I was answering the comment on my previous post, not the OP. That particular summary highlights the lack of sources.
 
gmcguitar4 said:
I was answering the comment on my previous post, not the OP. That particular summary highlights the lack of sources.
Click to expand...

Your "answer" wasn't really an answer at all. First off, your post said "Most research on OMM is regarded as low grade or poor quality." I'm asking for you to cite sources that say this.

What you cited was an article about osteopathy in the cranial field. Are you not aware that cranial doesn't compromise "most" of OMM? Or are you just extremely careless in your language and flustered when you get called on it, to the point that you don't realize you're producing links to articles that are completely irrelevant to your point?
 
Aislinn said:
Your "answer" wasn't really an answer at all. First off, your post said "Most research on OMM is regarded as low grade or poor quality." I'm asking for you to cite sources that say this.

What you cited was an article about osteopathy in the cranial field. Are you not aware that cranial doesn't compromise "most" of OMM? Or are you just extremely careless in your language and flustered when you get called on it, to the point that you don't realize you're producing links to articles that are completely irrelevant to your point?
Click to expand...

Being a little defensive there eh?

The papers are often qualitative, based on theories. Their sample sizes are miniscule. Funding is scarce. Narrow demographics. Results often biased and disputed by others. Sounds like great research! Do a google search on some studies.

You can believe what you want, but there are reasons why OMM receives little funding and why it is considered alternative medicine. Would you invest in a company that has been in startup mode for 100 years?
 
LizzyM said:
^ irrelevant, my friend. We are talking about the lower back, not the cranium. Maybe you need to go back to anatomy class.
Click to expand...

As a med student we did have a few lectures about OMM. Not so much how to practice it but a look at the data that surrounds it and different techniques.

This "Cranial' manipulation is OMM, and it has been reported to help with back pain, and pretty much anything else if I remember correctly.

Oh and it also, at least last time I checked, has absolutely no evidence (or basic physiology) that suggests it may work.

To the OP, at the only DO school I'm familiar with all their OMM were taught over the course of a 1 summer semester class. You could also get this training from fellow DO attendings you work with.

You say you want to go into EM? I have never seen a single DO EM attending use OMM in any way. You will not have time to perform some sort of massage (unless your trying to reduce a shoulder or something)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

O
Which schools have interview trackers?
Replies
2
Views
1K
Sky1.3
S
Henry Bicket
Which Texas Schools Care about CASPER scores?
Replies
2
Views
911
MedSchoolPilot
MedSchoolPilot
Mr.Smile12
DISCUSS: New MD schools
Replies
20
Views
5K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
[JAMA] MD-Granting Medical Schools in the US, 2025-2026
Replies
0
Views
216
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
T
Which Medical Schools Value PA-C Experience and Career Changers?
Replies
1
Views
678
Dexterslab42
D