Which perspectives are welcome here?

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msgeorgeeliot

msgeorgeeliot

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I am being as genuine and constructive as I can in writing this post.

Like many of you, I am a licensed psychologist who provides CBT as an expertly trained clinician. I am also unapologetic about my feminist perspective, my passion for social justice issues, and my stubborn optimism that we can actually get some **** done if we waste less time playing “who’s the smartest?” on an anonymous message board.

I am under the impression that, given these traits, I am not especially welcome in the broader culture of this online community. My perception is my responsibility, and I can choose where to spend my time.

I would like to spend some of it here. But I am getting clearer, based on the evidence generated in the last year, that my contributions and questions are more likely than not to evoke dismissiveness, condescending reality checks, and goading to be pedantically precise to earn the right to be addressed with respect.

I was the OP on the Epstein thread. I had a specific question about whether others were aware of systemic interventions in this new and socially urgent realm of institutional betrayal. I worked diligently to avoid taking the bait when responses were clearly more about the respondent’s ego than my specific question.

Seriously, y’all. It’s fine to not reply at all, or to say “I don’t know the research or have an especially informed opinion, but I’m interested in this discussion.” It’s totally ok to not know and to also show interest in others who might know more about a niche than you do.

My perception of the “wheat” of the thread is as follows: “This issue is important, it’s really hard to influence these systems, and we don’t really know how to be of meaningful help at this juncture.” That feedback is valuable to me because it informs my research and professional networking on this very specific topic.

The “chaff” is everything else. It’s a lot.

On that thread, I asked at one point, “Is this the community we want to have?” The question was in reference to the topic at hand, but it also applies right here and now.

There are a lot of great men here.

Male aggression on this forum is nonetheless a problem, and I’m not afraid to say it.

I know I am not alone in feeling this way, but I’m not sure that this has ever been directly addressed in a focused thread.

I like a lot of things about this space, but I am tired of contorting myself to try to pre-empt intellectual attacks by men who think they’re “good guys” but behave awfully on this forum. As a woman, I get enough practice with this dynamic in day to day life.

At the risk of being put on blast for this request, I would like to ask that male participants wait to respond until at least ten female participants have space to reflect on whatever they feel interested in saying. I am interested in the experiences of other women on this board in particular, and we don’t have to agree. I just want to hear from you first.
 
psych.meout said:
I don't think that's their point....
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It’s *my* point, and this exchange is already illuminating.

Do you identify as a woman, @psych.meout ?

To re-up my request:

For as long as it takes to hear from 10 people who openly identify as women about their perspective on the topics I raised, I do not want to hear a single man AT ALL.

Feel free to call the manager to complain.
 
It's a pretty open board, we welcome all perspectives. It is an internet forum, far from anonymous for some of us, but anonymous for many. That being said, probably a terrible place to craft policy. Hard to direct discussions at that level. Probably best left to psych associations at the state and national level, but you're free to try. We've had some pretty great discussions here in the past despite this, I imagine we'll have plenty more.
 
I've been a silent member of this forum for around 8 years, and am well acquainted with the dynamics you highlight here. Logged in (and had to reset my long forgotten password) just to respond to this thread. I 100% agree. You bring up some wonderful points, although I don't imagine they will be met with the thoughtful, introspective responses you are likely looking for. Despite this, I applaud you for opening this dialogue.
 
For what it's worth, I identify (at least currently) as a cis-male. I lean very far left socially and politically, I'm not really sure how to define the collective "here" in response to the OP, but personally I do welcome disparate points of view, as it challenges me to strengthen or revise my own positions. I recognize that, having rather extreme views myself, the views of most others are likely to be more to the right than mine (regression to the mean and all that).

I do, however, find that some of the regular posters are consistently a little "d**kish" or histrionic, and it gets a little boring when their posts (even when, as is usually the case, they contain accurate info or valuable opinions) consistently lead to full-derailment (some slight movement to side tracks is expected and helpful, though). Whatever- it's a sort of anonymous internet forum, and for all I know you could all be Russian-Bots. Whenever I post something potentially de-railing, I do try to throw in something related specifically to the OP.

While I do not take things here personally, I do recognize that the luxury of being able to do so is probably, at least somewhat, related to my history of interacting with the world as a male from the historically dominant and power-holding culture. I, for one, welcome others reminding me of the biases I may have a result.
 
As a related tangent. For those who desire a more exclusive, possibly more nuanced, discussion, while there are no sub forums here that are restricted to certain members, you can start a group PM for discussion purposes. I'm on several for specific topics that works pretty well.
 
I 100% agree with you. I abandoned my old account some time back due to the aggressive rudeness and condescension of some of the male posters. When I complained about some of their behavior previously, I was told there was absolutely nothing wrong with it (by a male moderator) and then was censured for a comment I made.

Interestingly, at least to me, one particular poster, who isn’t even out of school yet, likes to goad people a lot, especially women. Somehow, he is given the same respect and deference as female contributors who are actual psychologists. That speaks volumes to me.

I’d like to think people just are missing it, but the facts say otherwise. To me there is a clear bullying culture on this website. Evident from WAMC (by the way, the real-life psychologists and professors I know laugh at half the responses on that thread) all the way down the line.

I will say there are some very thoughtful and respectful male posters on this forum. I would like to see them speak up and call out their less respectful brethren sometimes. The few (I do think it’s a minority) bad actors are very pervasive unfortunately. They absolutely make it unpleasant to post. It’s a huge reason I rarely post anymore.

Thank you for bringing up this discussion. It’s very telling your request for female-identifying people to post first was not respected.
 
ClinicalABA said:
For what it's worth, I identify (at least currently) as a cis-male. I lean very far left socially and politically, I'm not really sure how to define the collective "here" in response to the OP, but personally I do welcome disparate points of view, as it challenges me to strengthen or revise my own positions. I recognize that, having rather extreme views myself, the views of most others are likely to be more to the right than mine (regression to the mean and all that)
I do, however, find that some of the regular posters are consistently a little "d**kish" or histrionic, and it gets a little boring when their posts (even when, as is usually the case, they contain accurate info or valuable opinions) consistently lead to full-derailment (some slight movement to side tracks is expected and helpful, though). Whatever- it's a sort of anonymous internet forum, and for all I know you could all be Russian-Bots. Whenever I post something potentially de-railing, I do try to throw in something related specifically to the OP.

While I do not take things here personally, I do recognize that the luxury of being able to do so is probably, at least somewhat, related to my history of interacting with the world as a male from the historically dominant and power-holding culture. I, for one, welcome others reminding me of the biases I may have a result.
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Thank you for your thoughtful response. We need more male-identifying people like you in the world.
 
msgeorgeeliot said:
It’s *my* point, and this exchange is already illuminating.

Do you identify as a woman, @psych.meout ?

To re-up my request:

For as long as it takes to hear from 10 people who openly identify as women about their perspective on the topics I raised, I do not want to hear a single man AT ALL.

Feel free to call the manager to complain.
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ExploringOptions said:
I 100% agree with you. I abandoned my old account some time back due to the aggressive rudeness and condescension of some of the male posters. When I complained about some of their behavior previously, I was told there was absolutely nothing wrong with it (by a male moderator) and then was censured for a comment I made.

Interestingly, at least to me, one particular poster, who isn’t even out of school yet, likes to goad people a lot, especially women. Somehow, he is given the same respect and deference as female contributors who are actual psychologists. That speaks volumes to me.

I’d like to think people just are missing it, but the facts say otherwise. To me there is a clear bullying culture on this website. Evident from WAMC (by the way, the real-life psychologists and professors I know laugh at half the responses on that thread) all the way down the line.

I will say there are some very thoughtful and respectful male posters on this forum. I would like to see them speak up and call out their less respectful brethren sometimes. The few (I do think it’s a minority) bad actors are very pervasive unfortunately. They absolutely make it unpleasant to post. It’s a huge reason I rarely post anymore.

Thank you for bringing up this discussion. It’s very telling your request for female-identifying people to post first was not respected.
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ExploringOptions said:
More like entitlement. And toxic masculinity.
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Why yes, male aggression is really the problem here.
 
The problem is that many of the replies are joking and sarcastic, which further makes the op’s point. She is trying to have a thoughtful discussion, and there are some thoughtful answers. There are also some bs replies that aim to make a joke of the topic. Maybe just don’t reply if you feel the urge to be dismissive of her (and others) concerns. Just a thought.
 
My program had this horrible thing where they put the entire cohort into a group, forced them to talk about stimulus value, power, and privilege. This was late 2000's, before everyone got woke. Each one of these "classes" turned into white, cis, able-bodied, Christian, hetero, male bashing. Whenever anyone ever brought up empiricism, or lack therof in the discussions, it was used as evidence of oppression. At it's core, it was a really great way at identifying people likely suffering from characterological deficits in the cohort. I say all this to say...I've always loved how this forum has never turned into that.
 
ExploringOptions said:
The problem is that many of the replies are joking and sarcastic, which further makes the op’s point. She is trying to have a thoughtful discussion, and there are some thoughtful answers. There are also some bs replies that aim to make a joke of the topic. Maybe just don’t reply if you feel the urge to be dismissive of her (and others) concerns. Just a thought.
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It generally helps when a conversation is sought in good faith from the start, rather than fishing for confirmation bias.
 
WisNeuro said:
It generally helps when a conversation is sought in good faith from the start, rather than fishing for confirmation bias.
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All I will say is op could have formatted this thread to be of benefit to the forum. It quickly turned into a bashing fest
 
I gotta say, I’m weirdly fascinated by the harrumphing on this thread. I mean, it would make sense to me if I had said “NO BOYS ALLOWED!” and “LADIES, CAN I GET AN AMEN?”

In reality, I did my best to thoughtfully state my point of view. I said I was open to different points of view and welcomed feedback. The thing that seems to have struck a nerve was my request to hear from female-identified people first. Not *only,* but *first.*

The intention was not to make myself a delicious confirmation bias sandwich. It was to literally try to create more space for voices that we don’t hear quite as often on here.
 
msgeorgeeliot said:
I gotta say, I’m weirdly fascinated by the harrumphing on this thread. I mean, it would make sense to me if I had said “NO BOYS ALLOWED!” and “LADIES, CAN I GET AN AMEN?”

In reality, I did my best to thoughtfully state my point of view. I said I was open to different points of view and welcomed feedback. The thing that seems to have struck a nerve was my request to hear from female-identified people first. Not *only,* but *first.*
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Your pre-edited OP of

"For as long as it takes to hear from 10 people who openly identify as women about their perspective on the topics I raised, I do not want to hear a single man AT ALL.

Feel free to call the manager to complain."

certainly did not convey that. It certainly seemed worded with the intent to provoke, rather than in good faith. There have been lots of good discussions in this board, but they have to be in good faith. And, generally telling people that they cannot comment on something in a public forum, tends to have the opposite effect, regardless of the issue at hand. There are ways to privately hold a discussion, as noted earlier, but the public discussion is just that. And, when a post is very clearly directed at certain members of the board, it's somewhat naïve to expect that they will not respond in some way. So, sure, let's all have a discussion. But, if the topic concerns all of us, all of us have a right to engage.
 
I stopped posting on this forum due to the experiences you shared. Thank you for opening this conversation. The problems are well illustrated by the responses on this post. Instead of giving some (politely, mindfully requested) room for female voices, posters have jumped in with sarcasm.

Unfortunately, you forget that women do not get to decide who should/shouldn’t be part of ANY conversation. At least that’s the reality here.

It’s interesting that the posters railing against waiting until women commented are often the first to tell posters they don’t belong in other conversations. They don’t belong because their school, their background, their experience, their opinions, etc. are not up to snuff. ‍♀️

I am so grateful that the toxicity in this forum is not reflected in our field as a whole.

Thanks for trying to have this conversation.
 
GradStudent2020 said:
Unfortunately, you forget that women do not get to decide who should/shouldn’t be part of ANY conversation. At least that’s the reality here.
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No one gets to decide who gets to be part of any conversation here, and that's the actual, Non-Trumpian reality here.
 
WisNeuro said:
Your pre-edited OP of

"For as long as it takes to hear from 10 people who openly identify as women about their perspective on the topics I raised, I do not want to hear a single man AT ALL.

Feel free to call the manager to complain."

certainly did not convey that. It certainly seemed worded with the intent to provoke, rather than in good faith. There have been lots of good discussions in this board, but they have to be in good faith. And, generally telling people that they cannot comment on something in a public forum, tends to have the opposite effect, regardless of the issue at hand. There are ways to privately hold a discussion, as noted earlier, but the public discussion is just that. And, when a post is very clearly directed at certain members of the board, it's somewhat naïve to expect that they will not respond in some way. So, sure, let's all have a discussion. But, if the topic concerns all of us, all of us have a right to engage.
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Hi @WisNeuro , I didn’t edit anything. That was my subsequent (still posted) reaction to two participants who seemed more interested in poking at me than responding <*or not!* > to my politely phrased request. I admit, I got frustrated and made the mistake of thinking “maybe if I say it LOUDER...” But I agree, my response could have had a nicer tone.

I agree that conversations are best conducted in good faith, and I don’t believe I ever told anyone that they are not allowed to comment. I simply asked the male participants to cool their jets for a sec so women’s voices could be centered for a brief period. Again, that seems to be an oddly controversial request. I wonder if some reflection is in order versus criticizing me as naive?
 
msgeorgeeliot said:
Hi @WisNeuro , I didn’t edit anything. That was my subsequent (still posted) reaction to two participants who seemed more interested in poking at me than responding to my politely phrased request. I admit, I got frustrated and made the mistake of thinking “maybe if I say it LOUDER...” But I agree, my response could have had a nicer tone.

I agree that conversations are best conducted in good faith, and I don’t believe I ever told anyone that they are not allowed to comment. I simply asked the male participants to cool their jets for a sec so women’s voices could be centered for a brief period. Again, that seems to be an oddly controversial request. I wonder if some reflection is in order versus criticizing me as naive?
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I stand corrected on the edited post issue, but stand by the rest. Reflection is great, seems like we could all use a bit more, but I hardly think you can expect to sit in a room, point to a group of people and say, "we're going to talk **** about you, you don't get to say anything until we're done" and expect a stellar response.
 
WisNeuro said:
I stand corrected on the edited post issue, but stand by the rest. Reflection is great, seems like we could all use a bit more, but I hardly think you can expect to sit in a room, point to a group of people and say, "we're going to talk **** about you, you don't get to say anything until we're done" and expect a stellar response.
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That is an interesting interpretation of what I said. In my OP, I wrote that there are a lot of great men on here, *and* that the aggressive behavior of some male participants is a deterrent to my — and evidently others’ — desire to participate.

I really wish that this would become focal point of this thread. Does it bother you that multiple women say that they do not post anymore because of the aforementioned aggressive behavior? Does it bother you to know that I’m getting PMs from women who are intimidated to weigh in on this thread? Does it bother you that applicants and graduate students are missing out on the voices of female psychologists that they might relate to?

All of these things bother me a lot.

Frankly, I was pretty interested to see if I could even get ten responses from female participants, and if so, how long it would take. Guess I’ll never know ‍♀️
 
msgeorgeeliot said:
That is an interesting interpretation of what I said. In my OP, I wrote that there are a lot of great men on here, *and* that the aggressive behavior of some male participants is a deterrent to my — and evidently others’ — desire to participate.

I really wish that this would become focal point of this thread. Does it bother you that multiple women say that they do not post anymore because of the aforementioned aggressive behavior? Does it bother you to know that I’m getting PMs from women who are intimidated to weigh in on this thread? Does it bother you that applicants and graduate students are missing out on the voices of female psychologists that they might relate to?

All of these things bother me a lot.

Frankly, I was pretty interested to see if I could even get ten responses from female participants, and if so, how long it would take. Guess I’ll never know ‍♀
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People do not post on here for various reasons, or at least claim not too. The main reason seems to be people from diploma mills not happy that we don't like diploma mills. It's an anonymous internet forum where we discuss clinical and scientific topics, sometimes quote fervently. If some people cannot handle that, that is their choice. It frankly does not bother me either way. Everyone who desires to, has a voice on this forum. I, for one, think healthy debate is good. Makes us better researchers and clinicians. If people want to retreat into their own echo chambers that is also their choice.
 
I like how the same behavior is interpreted differently based on its congruence with one's own position. Snarkiness and sarcasm are ok when some people use them, but it's considered aggressive or problematic when coming from someone with whom you disagree.

Similarly, males who agree with you are the good ones and their opinions are valid, while those who disagree are being aggressive and shouldn't reply.
 
msgeorgeeliot said:
I am being as genuine and constructive as I can in writing this post.

Like many of you, I am a licensed psychologist who provides CBT as an expertly trained clinician. I am also unapologetic about my feminist perspective, my passion for social justice issues, and my stubborn optimism that we can actually get some **** done if we waste less time playing “who’s the smartest?” on an anonymous message board.

I am under the impression that, given these traits, I am not especially welcome in the broader culture of this online community. My perception is my responsibility, and I can choose where to spend my time.

I would like to spend some of it here. But I am getting clearer, based on the evidence generated in the last year, that my contributions and questions are more likely than not to evoke dismissiveness, condescending reality checks, and goading to be pedantically precise to earn the right to be addressed with respect.

I was the OP on the Epstein thread. I had a specific question about whether others were aware of systemic interventions in this new and socially urgent realm of institutional betrayal. I worked diligently to avoid taking the bait when responses were clearly more about the respondent’s ego than my specific question.

Seriously, y’all. It’s fine to not reply at all, or to say “I don’t know the research or have an especially informed opinion, but I’m interested in this discussion.” It’s totally ok to not know and to also show interest in others who might know more about a niche than you do.

My perception of the “wheat” of the thread is as follows: “This issue is important, it’s really hard to influence these systems, and we don’t really know how to be of meaningful help at this juncture.” That feedback is valuable to me because it informs my research and professional networking on this very specific topic.

The “chaff” is everything else. It’s a lot.

On that thread, I asked at one point, “Is this the community we want to have?” The question was in reference to the topic at hand, but it also applies right here and now.

There are a lot of great men here.

Male aggression on this forum is nonetheless a problem, and I’m not afraid to say it.

I know I am not alone in feeling this way, but I’m not sure that this has ever been directly addressed in a focused thread.

I like a lot of things about this space, but I am tired of contorting myself to try to pre-empt intellectual attacks by men who think they’re “good guys” but behave awfully on this forum. As a woman, I get enough practice with this dynamic in day to day life.

At the risk of being put on blast for this request, I would like to ask that male participants wait to respond until at least ten female participants have space to reflect on whatever they feel interested in saying. I am interested in the experiences of other women on this board in particular, and we don’t have to agree. I just want to hear from you first.
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I’d like to respond thoughtfully to your question, could you re-state it?

You are interested in if posters feel their thoughts, comments, questions are well-received? And especially interested in the experiences of women, right?
 
GradStudent2020 said:
I’d like to respond thoughtfully to your question, could you re-state it?

You are interested in if posters feel their thoughts, comments, questions are well-received? And especially interested in the experiences of women, right?
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Thanks. My OP didn’t contain a specific question, really. My intent was to articulate a personal dilemma in participating here that, in my experience, is influenced to some degree by gender. I wondered if others, particularly women, could relate. I left my OP pretty open-ended for others to reflect, disagree, agree, bring up new points.

Given this thread’s evolution, my current, more concrete questions are these:

Does it bother people here that multiple women say that they do not post anymore because of the aforementioned aggressive behavior?

Does it bother people here to know that I’m getting PMs from women who are intimidated to weigh in on this thread?

Does it bother people here that applicants and graduate students are missing out on the voices of female psychologists that they might relate to?

I welcome other people’s related questions that are also posed in good faith.
 
As a moderator, I'd like to say that we honestly make every effort to make the forum accessible and welcoming for everyone and try to maintain an overall professional and helpful tone. If anyone sees posts that they think violate this, please report them and/or contact us. The entire SDN administration (predominantly volunteers and with a strong female representation) really is deeply committed to allowing open discussion while also promoting discussion that is professional, helpful, and welcoming. We truly do listen to and value feedback.

Speaking only for myself now, as a woman (also White, gay, and disabled, so in some ways privileged, in some ways not), I honestly think SDN has made me a better professional. Do I agree with every poster here or every "popular" poster here? No, not by any means. But I've learned so much about professional and educational issues here and now have multiple TEPP publications in large part thanks to that spurred interest. I met one of my very close (female) friends and collaborators here as well as a close (male) mentor. I've learned and grown and changed because of this forum and the discussions on it. Also, in the field, both on and off the forum, I've seen toxicity across genders, honestly.
 
I think we all can benefit from self-reflection. There are responses at times that make me cringe, some (but not all) of which appear reactionary to other comments. Although by that same measure, I will then sometimes see subsequent posts that strike an entirely different "tone" and cause me to think I misinterpreted the original post. This is, certainly, pitfall of online and text-only communication. But if there are entire groups/swaths of individuals who feel uncomfortable posting, that is helpful information.

To respond to the questions stated above, my answer to all 3 is yes, and I would be interested in gathering more information as to why/how.

I also second future's response that I believe my participation in this forum has fostered my professional growth.
 
I can say that I both experience professional growth from this forum, and find it to be unwelcoming and to have a "boy's club" feel, though I think that's based on a relatively small number of regular posters. There absolutely can be toxicity from any gender / grouping of people, but power dynamics matter. Psychology as a field is predominantly female these days, yet nearly all of the professors at my program were male, and I know that is still the norm at most. My boss is a man. These things aren't inherently problematic, but I think what some men could think a bit more about is how much more weight comes with their sarcasm, based solely on the way power is concentrated by group. When you're perceived to be in power, your whisper can be like a shout. It's not hysteria causing females to perceive your group as in power. Look around you.
 
msgeorgeeliot said:
Does it bother people here that multiple women say that they do not post anymore because of the aforementioned aggressive behavior?
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Yes

msgeorgeeliot said:
Does it bother people here to know that I’m getting PMs from women who are intimidated to weigh in on this thread?
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Yes

msgeorgeeliot said:
Does it bother people here that applicants and graduate students are missing out on the voices of female psychologists that they might relate to?
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Yes

msgeorgeeliot said:
I welcome other people’s related questions that are also posed in good faith.
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A serious question- Do you think, with some people, it has nothing to do with their gender, sex, power status, etc., and maybe it’s just that they are good old fashioned jerks? Parsimony is a good thing in any debate. Sometimes an a**hole is just an a**hole!
 
ClinicalABA said:
Yes



Yes



Yes



A serious question- Do you think, with some people, it has nothing to do with their gender, sex, power status, etc., and maybe it’s just that they are good old fashioned jerks? Parsimony is a good thing in any debate. Sometimes an a**hole is just an a**hole!
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I can't speak for all women. But, yes this is certainly considered.

I'd like to respectfully point out that the subtext of what you are asking here "are you sure you are not being insensitive or hysterical? All of this might just exist in your head."
 
AllyCat31 said:
I can't speak for all women. But, yes this is certainly considered.

I'd like to respectfully point out that the subtext of what you are asking here "are you sure you are not being insensitive or hysterical? All of this might just exist in your head."
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Not intended at all- In hope my posting history, particularly on such topics, will stand as evidence that the question was truly information seeking, rather than challenging. I sincerely apologize if it came across that way.

I think there is definitely bullying, aggressive behavior that comes from a history of entitlement and never having been anything other than a member of the dominant group in any setting (I have opinions on who here fits that bill). I think some others just either lack key social skills or act the way they do just to be provocative. I get a sense that for some of those folks it actually comes from a history of lack of a certain kind of power, interacting with a perceived safety of his being a somewhat anonymous Internet forum. Again- sorry if it came across otherwise. I will reflect more on such potential receptions of my words in the future.
 
ClinicalABA said:
Not intended at all- In hope my posting history, particularly on such topics, will stand as evidence that the question was truly information seeking, rather than challenging. I sincerely apologize if it came across that way.

I think there is definitely bullying, aggressive behavior that comes from a history of entitlement and never having been anything other than a member of the dominant group in any setting (I have opinions on who here fits that bill). I think some others just either lack key social skills or act the way they do just to be provocative. I get a sense that for some of those folks it actually comes from a history of lack of a certain kind of power, interacting with a perceived safety of his being a somewhat anonymous Internet forum. Again- sorry if it came across otherwise. I will reflect more on such potential receptions of my words in the future.
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I didn't take what you said that way - probably because I've seen your posting style a lot over time. I can understand the sensitivity a lot of women have to the implied message of "boys will be boys," which is essentially, "don't be uppity about it!" But you're right, some people are just jerks with poor social skills.

Maybe the most toxic aspect of some of the regular posters here is that they do say things of value. By and large, they're not stupid or ill-informed. That both gives the vitriol more weight than it would otherwise carry, and it makes it harder to give that same message (e.g. don't take on a gazillion dollars of debt to go to a diploma-mill PsyD) and be heard. It also really reduces the likelihood that the recipient is going to take the semi-poisonous/semi-helpful feedback in, which makes you wonder if the actual point for the toxic poster is to puff up their ego by putting others down, rather than to give helpful advice. It's gross.
 
Well, the discussion is kind of going somewhere, but that somewhere is the same old place that these always go. I'm still pretty much just seeing confirmation bias, mind reading, and gross generalizations. Nothing really new here. Though, I am enjoying the irony to some extent. This could actually turn into a decent discussion, you know, with that good faith thing and all.
 
I have no idea what stirred this pot. There is usually something that happened that spurred it though and I suspect it will end up going no where, as it usually does. Ah well. I'll throw my same .02 in this time as well.

I post here and treat people exactly like I do in real life. I haven't found my interactions in real life to be a problem to myself or to others. I am blunt. I have high expectations for people. At times I'm sure that is offensive to some people. We are all offensive to some people some of the time. Some people are more offensive to others on a more frequent basis. @ClinicalABA made this point above in a far shorter manner. People can and should be mindful when possible. Mistakes happen, but I think the moderators do a good job and that (largely speaking) the board has improved consistently over the past years. I expect it will continue to do so. I think think this is a good pattern overall. I'm sure folks would like it to go faster. But I'm not sure what the expectation (Realistically) may be coming from a single thread.

As an aside. When people call other people toxic and things like that, it doesn't foster a better environment any more than people who post jerky comments. Its a problem of messaging and it doesn't promote a conversation in which both people are invited to partake equally. The implication of that sort of messaging is, of course, that one party is not able to engage and should not. This isn't to say being needlessly rude or whatever you want to term it is acceptable (there is still enough of that), but there also needs to be care to generalize 'X group does X' on an anonymous forum and attributing negative behaviors to one group seems overly simplistic and problematic in its own right.
 
StellaB said:
makes you wonder if the actual point for the toxic poster is to puff up their ego by putting others down, rather than to give helpful advice. It's gross.
Click to expand...
BINGO!! Not just gross, but kind of pathetic. It such a simple tweak- for example saying “an expensive FSPS is likely to be counterproductive to achieving your goals” is actually less effort (practically and emotionally) than saying “you must be dumb to even consider such a ridiculous choice as an FSPS”-that to not do so- despite several reasonable and non-reasonable impl0rations, can only have an explanation other than “I’m just trying to b helpful.”
 
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