ChessMess

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Which schools' students have the best USMLE scores?

And where can we find this information?
 

modelslashactor

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i dont think this information is released, but the schools know where they stand. as you might expect, the schools with the high mcat averages have ridiculous step 1 averages just because the students they attract are smart.

i read on here that usc had a ridiculous step 1 average for this year's graduating class, like 230 or something sick like that. don't even know the ballpark figures for other schools.
 

thatslife

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ChessMess said:
Which schools' students have the best USMLE scores?

And where can we find this information?
do a search of sdn there is a thread thats contains a compelation of schools and their scores.
 
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braluk

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what are average usmle scores for top 10 residencies (places like JHU etc). i hear the step 1 is what is considered the most important when matching
 

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braluk said:
what are average usmle scores for top 10 residencies (places like JHU etc). i hear the step 1 is what is considered the most important when matching
I'm pretty sure you'll never find that information. Also, schools like JHU are going to have residencies that don't have very high average Step 1 scores (people aren't clamoring for family practice or pathology), and even schools you don't know about will probably still have very competitive ROAD Step 1 scores.


Stanford claimed an average of 237 last year, I believe. Northwestern was 229. UWisc was 219. Stanford had that on their website, and the other two were told to me by deans at those schools.
 

modelslashactor

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if there is a thread with all the usmle scores of schools, please post a link because ive never seen it.

as for the scores needed for top residencies, from my trolling the residency boards i have learned that it really depends on the specialty and that they are usually only used to get interviews. so, for psychiatry the interview cutoff might be 220 at JHU, but 240 or 250 for derm. I think the national average is around 215 and the 90th percentile is around 240. regardless, much like the mcat this means significantly less once you land the interview.
 

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modelslashactor said:
i dont think this information is released, but the schools know where they stand. as you might expect, the schools with the high mcat averages have ridiculous step 1 averages just because the students they attract are smart.
Although there is a correlation to MCAT scores, it is certainly not at strong a correlation as your post suggests. There will be people who scored average on the MCAT who do well above average on the boards, and (more frequently) vice versa. You can pull the correlation study off pubmed and will likely be underwhelmed by how statistically important the MCAT score.

USMLE Step 1 scores are not published, and almost every school will find a way to tell you they are above average. Some say they are currently above average, others will say that they are above the average over the last 3, 5, 10, whatever, years. Others will talk about scores going steadilly up for the last 3, 5 whatever, years. There is a lot of window dressing and puffery here and a lot of this info needs to be taken with a grain of salt. There is a thread on SDN where people report hearsay scores, but they are not always current, and it is impossible to determine the accuracy of a lot of that info. A few schools, eg. Florida, are proud of and regularly publish their scores, and can be viewed with a bit less skepticism.
 

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jota_jota said:
OK, if it is difficult to find published board scores for schools, is there a published list of average board scores by specialty? That way, if I ask a school about their board scores, and they tell me, I can know if they are good or not for my specialties of interest.
The most competitive specialties generally require higher scores, least require lower. And even within specialties there will be a range, as better places require higher. And there will be lots of overlap -- you may need better numbers to get into a noncompetitive specialty at a very competitive place than a competitive residency at a less desirable place. So there won't be a nice breakdown. A lot of this is going to turn on word of mouth advising once you get further along.
And besides, everyone changes their mind multiple times before ultimately embarking on a specialty, and so this is a questionable way to select your desired school. What if you decide you want to go into a less competitive specialty and then a few years down the road get excited about opthalmology or something. It happens all the time. Assume you are going to shoot for the moon whereever you go, and that all roads can lead to where you want if you put up the stats through hard work, and impress the appropriate contacts. Just my three cents.
 

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Hi I'm an MS-III (and there's nothing fun to read on the Allo board)

I would not use average board scores to pick a school. The variation at any school is HUGE and the scores are mainly dependent on your intellect and motivation. There are people at every school with 250+ scores. Any accredited school will teach you what you need to know for 98% of USMLE questions -- the issue is how much you choose to retain and how much prep you do. I would guess that schools with high scores usually achieve this by accepting people who have done well on standardized tests in the past (ie. MCAT). A few schools may have structural things (like Stanford's popular deceleration option) that help students, but at most schools I doubt this is a factor.

(I also would be weary of looking at the number of matches in derm. Most people who are capable of matching in derm are not interested in it. It attracts a certain kind of person. Personally I thought a high number of derm matches was unappealing.)

I would be weary of schools with a high fail rate, but this is rare.
 

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lord_jeebus said:
Hi I'm an MS-III (and there's nothing fun to read on the Allo board)

I would not use average board scores to pick a school. The variation at any school is HUGE and the scores are mainly dependent on your intellect and motivation. There are people at every school with 250+ scores. Any accredited school will teach you what you need to know for 98% of USMLE questions -- the issue is how much you choose to retain and how much prep you do. I would guess that schools with high scores usually achieve this by accepting people who have done well on standardized tests in the past (ie. MCAT). A few schools may have structural things (like Stanford's popular deceleration option) that help students, but at most schools I doubt this is a factor.

(I also would be weary of looking at the number of matches in derm. Most people who are capable of matching in derm are not interested in it. It attracts a certain kind of person. Personally I thought a high number of derm matches was unappealing.)

I would be weary of schools with a high fail rate, but this is rare.
I agree with this post (esp. the conveniently bold part :D )

Nearly every med school teaches the same curriculum. The same might even be argued on the collegiate level.

Either way, when it comes to tests, you're taking the test, not the school. With that said, there's nothing wrong with being curious and I think that med schools should provide average USMLE scores...only seems fair.
-Dr. P.
 
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Dr. Pepper said:
I think that med schools should provide average USMLE scores...only seems fair.
-Dr. P.
Probabaly better that they don't. While the boards are relevent to residency, there are other focuses a school should also have to churn out good doctors. Having schools compete on board scores in order to be appealing to applicants would mean some schools would start to teach exclusively to the boards, at the expense of clinical skills and other valuable but time intensive things. All these things might be subverted if a school felt the need to post a higher avg board score to look competitive, and certainly ranking companies like US News would jump on the bandwagon and use these scores to rank schools. You would, in effect, make a lot of schools one giant Kaplan class, geared toward a single test. Without making the board scores public, you enable the schools to explore other approaches (PBL, earlier clinical exposure) to training doctors. The goal is to train great doctors, not high numbers. While there is some overlap, these goals are not perfectly alligned.
 

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Law2Doc said:
Probabaly better that they don't. While the boards are relevent to residency, there are other focuses a school should also have to churn out good doctors. Having schools compete on board scores in order to be appealing to applicants would mean some schools would start to teach exclusively to the boards, at the expense of clinical skills and other valuable but time intensive things. All these things might be subverted if a school felt the need to post a higher avg board score to look competitive, and certainly ranking companies like US News would jump on the bandwagon and use these scores to rank schools. You would, in effect, make a lot of schools one giant Kaplan class, geared toward a single test. Without making the board scores public, you enable the schools to explore other approaches (PBL, earlier clinical exposure) to training doctors. The goal is to train great doctors, not high numbers. While there is some overlap, these goals are not perfectly alligned.
Touche
-Dr. P
 

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I read on the interview feedback that UTMB (galveston) had an average of 226 last year
 

braluk

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the probability of a med school reporting avg USMLE scores is probably akin to colleges providing average MCAT scores or GRE scores for students taking them, they might be available to med school students, but not generaly for the public
 

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I suggest if you want to make it as easy as possible to get a top match you:

1) Choose an allopathic school if possible

2) Choose a school with a good academic reputation.

3) Choose a school with a high step 1 pass rate (if you can find out)

4) Look at where people matched out of their school and into what residencies. These are usually released.

People match into good residencies from almost any medical school. It is really more about what you do in school then what school you went to, although there is a bias against DO's in more competitive surgical specialties.

In my opinion medical school doesn't contribute nearly as much to the quality of physician you will be as does your residency. That is where you learn how to be a doctor.
 

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TheProwler said:
I doubt it.
What do you mean you doubt it? You fool, it's a fact. That's what's so great about Baylor. People don't give the credit it deserves because it's not East Coast/West Coast. It's dirt cheap and clearly an excellent place to get a medical education. So you go ahead and apply to your Ivy Leagues.
 

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doctordutch said:
What do you mean you doubt it? You fool, it's a fact. That's what's so great about Baylor. People don't give the credit it deserves because it's not East Coast/West Coast. It's dirt cheap and clearly an excellent place to get a medical education. So you go ahead and apply to your Ivy Leagues.
Shhhhhh. He's right. There is no way that Baylor has those kind of scores. In fact, Baylor is one of the worst schools in the country. People really SHOULDN'T apply there period. East/West Coast schools are the place to go. ;)

P.S. Ignore the smilies with winks. I completely meant everything I said up there. My keyboard is just having problems ;)
 

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Law2Doc said:
Although there is a correlation to MCAT scores, it is certainly not at strong a correlation as your post suggests. There will be people who scored average on the MCAT who do well above average on the boards, and (more frequently) vice versa. You can pull the correlation study off pubmed and will likely be underwhelmed by how statistically important the MCAT score.
.
I'll bet there is a fairly strong correlation between the bio section of the mcat and usmle score... just because the thinking would be fairly similar.
 

braluk

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whatever MD is MD. When i worked with the director of cardiac surgery at the Mayo, he graduated from Oklahoma University (or somewhere out there), and did med school there as well. Look where he is now
 

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Carmenita79 said:
I'll bet there is a fairly strong correlation between the bio section of the mcat and usmle score... just because the thinking would be fairly similar.
Actually the strongest correlation is with the verbal section. Go figure.
 

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Law2Doc said:
At lunch? :laugh:
hey! i dont appreciate tomfoolery around here!
 

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Law2Doc said:
Actually the strongest correlation is with the verbal section. Go figure.
Where did you see that? I did a quick search and didn't see anything saying that. I did see an article that said the correlation between verbal MCAT and step II scores had an R value of 0.331 (anything <0.5 = essentially no correlation).... but nothing about step I
 

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lord_jeebus said:
(I also would be weary of looking at the number of matches in derm. Most people who are capable of matching in derm are not interested in it. It attracts a certain kind of person. Personally I thought a high number of derm matches was unappealing.)

QUOTE]


:smuggrin: agreed
 

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Carmenita79 said:
Where did you see that? I did a quick search and didn't see anything saying that. I did see an article that said the correlation between verbal MCAT and step II scores had an R value of 0.331 (anything <0.5 = essentially no correlation).... but nothing about step I
See: http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/velos001.htm
(quoted and bolded below). They might be talking about Step II.

Veloski, J.J., Callahan, C.A., Xu, G., Hojat, M., & Nash, D.B. (2000). Prediction of Students' Performances on Licensing Examinations Using Age, Race, Sex, Undergraduate GPA, and MCAT Scores. Academic Medicine, 75, S28-S30.

"PURPOSE: We designed the present study to evaluate simultaneously the relative importances of MCAT scores, undergraduate GPAs, age, race, and sex in predicting performances on the three-step sequence of preclinical, clinical, and postgraduate licensing examinations.

METHOD: The sample consisted of 6,239 matriculants who entered Jefferson Medical College during the 30 years between 1968 and 1997, inclusive. The dependent variables were total scores on Parts, I, II, and III of the licensing examinations of the NBME and total scores on Steps 1, 2, and 3 of the USMLE (the latter three examinations replaced the former three several years ago). A separate multivariate linear regression model was generated for each of the six dependent variables. The independent variables were sex, age, race/ethnicity, undergraduate GPAs and MCAT scores. Sex was coded 0 for men and 1 for women, who were 26% of the entire cohort. Students who were more than 23 years old at the time of matriculation (also 26% of the cohort) were coded 1 and others were coded 0. Racial-ethnic backgrounds, as defined by the Association of American Medical Colleges, consisted of Asian, Oriental, or Pacific Islander groups; Hispanic (not white); black; and white. Students in each of the first three race categories were coded as 1. The percentages for Asian American, Hispanic, and black were 8.2%, 1.4%, and 2.8%, respectively. The other students, who included 85.9% white and 1.7% in other racial groups with very small sample sizes, were not coded separately.

RESULTS: The contribution of the MCAT science score in predicting scores on the preclinical examination was more important than that of the science GPA. Being an older, nontraditional student at matriculation was unrelated to all scores after controlling for the other independent variables. The regression coefficients for women were negative for the NBME Part I, but insignificant for Step 1. However, being a woman was positively associated with the scores on USMLE Steps 2 and 3. Although being black was negatively associated with performances on Parts II and III, and being Hispanic negatively associated with performance on Part III, these patterns disappeared in the more recent USMLE examinations. Overall, the only consistent pattern related to age, race, or sex across all examinations was the negative regression weight for Asian American Students.

CONCLUSION: As expected from many earlier studies, MCAT scores were consistently more valuable that were undergraduate GPAs as predictors of performance on licensing examinations, supporting their continued use in selection decisions. These relationships are stable across three decades and apply to the three examinations. Verbal scores tended to be better indicators of performances in the clinical and postgraduate tests. There was no independent effect for older, nontraditional students after controlling for their undergraduate academic performances and MCAT scores.

In this present study, statistical control of the baseline differences at matriculation using regression analysis showed that underrepresented-minority students compared with white students performed less well than would have been predicted on the NBME in the earlier time period. However, this pattern disappeared in the recent time period. This change over time may have been due to the effectiveness of academic enrichment programs.

The most striking finding this the large negative value of the b-coefficients as well as the beta-coefficients for Asian American students. This indicates that, after controlling statistically for science and verbal MCAT scores and undergraduate GPAs, these students performed less well compared with white students. The findings of this present study indicate that Asian American students' performances fell below expectations on all NBME and USMLE examinations, after controlling for these prematriculation measures."
 

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jota_jota said:
Shhhhhh. He's right. There is no way that Baylor has those kind of scores. In fact, Baylor is one of the worst schools in the country. People really SHOULDN'T apply there period. East/West Coast schools are the place to go. ;)

P.S. Ignore the smilies with winks. I completely meant everything I said up there. My keyboard is just having problems ;)
:laugh:
 

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Law2Doc said:
See: http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/research/bibliography/velos001.htm
(quoted and bolded below). They might be talking about Step II.

Veloski, J.J., Callahan, C.A., Xu, G., Hojat, M., & Nash, D.B. (2000). Prediction of Students' Performances on Licensing Examinations Using Age, Race, Sex, Undergraduate GPA, and MCAT Scores. Academic Medicine, 75, S28-S30.

"PURPOSE: We designed the present study to evaluate simultaneously the relative importances of MCAT scores, undergraduate GPAs, age, race, and sex in predicting performances on the three-step sequence of preclinical, clinical, and postgraduate licensing examinations.

METHOD: The sample consisted of 6,239 matriculants who entered Jefferson Medical College during the 30 years between 1968 and 1997, inclusive. The dependent variables were total scores on Parts, I, II, and III of the licensing examinations of the NBME and total scores on Steps 1, 2, and 3 of the USMLE (the latter three examinations replaced the former three several years ago). A separate multivariate linear regression model was generated for each of the six dependent variables. The independent variables were sex, age, race/ethnicity, undergraduate GPAs and MCAT scores. Sex was coded 0 for men and 1 for women, who were 26% of the entire cohort. Students who were more than 23 years old at the time of matriculation (also 26% of the cohort) were coded 1 and others were coded 0. Racial-ethnic backgrounds, as defined by the Association of American Medical Colleges, consisted of Asian, Oriental, or Pacific Islander groups; Hispanic (not white); black; and white. Students in each of the first three race categories were coded as 1. The percentages for Asian American, Hispanic, and black were 8.2%, 1.4%, and 2.8%, respectively. The other students, who included 85.9% white and 1.7% in other racial groups with very small sample sizes, were not coded separately.

RESULTS: The contribution of the MCAT science score in predicting scores on the preclinical examination was more important than that of the science GPA. Being an older, nontraditional student at matriculation was unrelated to all scores after controlling for the other independent variables. The regression coefficients for women were negative for the NBME Part I, but insignificant for Step 1. However, being a woman was positively associated with the scores on USMLE Steps 2 and 3. Although being black was negatively associated with performances on Parts II and III, and being Hispanic negatively associated with performance on Part III, these patterns disappeared in the more recent USMLE examinations. Overall, the only consistent pattern related to age, race, or sex across all examinations was the negative regression weight for Asian American Students.

CONCLUSION: As expected from many earlier studies, MCAT scores were consistently more valuable that were undergraduate GPAs as predictors of performance on licensing examinations, supporting their continued use in selection decisions. These relationships are stable across three decades and apply to the three examinations. Verbal scores tended to be better indicators of performances in the clinical and postgraduate tests. There was no independent effect for older, nontraditional students after controlling for their undergraduate academic performances and MCAT scores.

In this present study, statistical control of the baseline differences at matriculation using regression analysis showed that underrepresented-minority students compared with white students performed less well than would have been predicted on the NBME in the earlier time period. However, this pattern disappeared in the recent time period. This change over time may have been due to the effectiveness of academic enrichment programs.

The most striking finding this the large negative value of the b-coefficients as well as the beta-coefficients for Asian American students. This indicates that, after controlling statistically for science and verbal MCAT scores and undergraduate GPAs, these students performed less well compared with white students. The findings of this present study indicate that Asian American students' performances fell below expectations on all NBME and USMLE examinations, after controlling for these prematriculation measures."
so, like I said earlier, science MCAT is a better predictor for step I. Verbal better for clinicals (step II, III)
 
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