Which US Schools should I apply to? V. GOOD ECs

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AshPreMed

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Now, are you Canadian?
If so, I hate to say it but you're odds aren't looking good if you're Canadian. I would retake and track down Canadian friendly DO schools.
 
I'm American and Canadian. Since the specialties that interest me happen to be in the MD, I'm only interested in MD. I'm very strong in the sciences, it's just the VR (which I think they might weigh less than the sciences) that I didn't do so well in. I can also score much higher on the MCAT (>34) next time.
 
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AshPreMed said:
I'm American and Canadian. Since the specialties that interest me happen to be in the MD, I'm only interested in MD. I'm very strong in the sciences, it's just the VR (which I think they might weigh less than the sciences) that I didn't do so well in. I can also score much higher on the MCAT (>34) next time.
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In that case, bring the VR up and you've got a good shot.
 
Moosepig said:
In that case, bring the VR up and you've got a good shot.
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Thanks. I'm trying to find out where I have my best shots for this cycle though, as an Ohio citizen.
 
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No one cares about high school ECs or your SAT score. You will get automatically weeded out with that 6 in verbal reasoning. You should retake and apply next year or lower your standards.
 
My advice for you app would be to not apply this year and retake the MCAT before next year's application. The 6 in VR is too low, I don't know what the screening cut-off's are for MD, but I would imagine it's near or over that. Your GPA is showing a great upward trend so that's really good, but applying next year would also allow your senior grades to continue to influence that. Your EC's show you've been pretty involved, but to be very good you'll have to convince others that you learned a lot and grew significantly from the experience. Not saying you didn't, but I expect involvement won't wow someone, the way you discuss your growth from it will. I may have missed it in all those words but do you have shadowing and clinical volunteering? Without those your ECs are in severe detriment.

My advice to you personally is to try and relax a little more. This is the third WAMC thread you've started about yourself in just the past few months I think. Slow down. Med school isn't going anywhere.

Oh and there is no such thing as an "MD specialty". DOs have residencies/fellowships for the same stuff. You just don't want to be a DO. Own it.
 
Why are some of the words bold lol?
And I don't think being from U of Toronto is going to help much.
Either way, you need to bring up that MCAT scores, particularly Verbal. A 6 may be an auto-screenout.
 
Can't I at least apply to my state school? I heard a few schools wait for my January marks if I tell them I'm retaking it (ad com told me).

Verbal reasoning isn't that essential is it? All the other sections did involve English comprehension, verbal was just a distorted version. I'm still quite capable at English as shown in my above average writing score. Won't the other parts of my application (recent GPA, EC, being in-state) possibly make up for it?
 
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I am not an admissions committee member, though I'm afraid that it does matter to the extent that a 6 is not sufficient. I realize you have a sufficient comprehension of the English language, I believe that you have the capacity to score well enough to be accepted to an MD program (my non-expert estimate would be 8+ will be "good enough"). However I also believe that the current 6 is simply not high enough and needs to be addressed in order to give your application enough of a shot to make applying worth it.

I don't believe you want to be a reapplicant either so I would not advise applying to your state school. Check the MSAR for those schools and see what the 10 percentile verbal score is. I hope you can realize that waiting a year to address deficiencies is not a failure of you, it's a putting your best foot forward kind of thing.
 
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Why do you guys think I shouldn't be a reapplicant?
 
Nobody wants to be a reapplicant. In general for the schools that you'd be reapplying to, they would expect to see significant improvement to your application since the time you previously applied. In your case, upping your MCAT to like a 33 while maintaining volunteering, shadowing, etc. in between cycles would probably suffice.
 
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Being a reapplicant puts you in a different category than first time applicants (you are specifically asked if you have applied and/or been accepted to another program at any time in the past). If you apply, and are rejected the first time around, when you come back admissions committee members will wonder why you were rejected. Have significant improvements been made since the last time around? Why didn't you just wait to address weaknesses before applying?

It just puts a mark on your head. There are even some schools which will not look at 2nd time applicants, though I believe they are a minority. Still though, it demonstrates what we mean when we say try to avoid being a reapplicant.
 
Do universities consider me a reapplicant if I applied to them specifically, or any other university in USA?
 
Have you submitted to AMCAS to be verified yet? If not it is really, really late. Some schools have cut off dates in early November. Also your cGPA is 3.3? What is your sGPA? You are only 20. Why are you in such a hurry? As someone else said: slow down. Work hard this year and develop a standout application that you submit in June 2013.
 
Dear fellow Canadian Friend !
I am also a u of t student with a GPA of 3.9
My MCAT came out to be PS 12 VR 6 BS 14 and to be honest with you I had no chance at any of American schools ! Plus I had a lot of clinical experiences and researches... I have published a paper in a world-famous surgery journal
A 6 in verbal is just killing your application !! I think it is better to wait... be patience...you will finally going to make it but don't try to expedite the process.
I think you must improve your MCAT score before even applying otherwise you will be a re applicant next year. It is good that you have US citizenship as well (How could you get that?!) and it is very very useful so I believe by improving your mcat (you said 34 and i say it too) you are good to go
 
OP, here's my $0.02.

Observations:
1. Your research experience sounds great.
2. You have shown leadership and initiative in several areas.
3. You have not listed any clinical volunteering or shadowing, which, I assume, means that you haven't done any. This deficiency will hurt you at many schools.
4. Your GPA is below average for MD schools, although the upward trend will compensate somewhat.
5. A 6 in VR will hurt you immensely. Yes, VR matters. I suppose that ADCOMs will give you some benefit of the doubt since English is not your first language, but I think you'd still want at least an 8 to have a solid chance at MD schools.

A few recommendations:
1. Do not apply this year. Points 3-5 above together with a late application do not constitute a recipe for success.
2. Try to raise your GPA by at least 0.1-0.2 points.
3. Shadow. A lot. With a variety of MDs. Pick areas that appeal to you and experiences that will provide you with some level of exposure to the clinical side of the medicine. You could do some clinical volunteering as well, if you wanted.
4. Retake the MCAT and score >=8 in VR while (at least) maintaining your science scores.

I'm very strong in the sciences, it's just the VR (which I think they might weigh less than the sciences) that I didn't do so well in. I can also score much higher on the MCAT (>34), due to time being the main limiting factor, next time.
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Time will also be a factor the next time you take the MCAT. What preparation have you done to make you confident of scoring a 34? If you're hitting 34+ on timed, practice AAMCs, you should be in good shape.
 
I plan on studying Orgo during the winter break (it was my only weakness with verbal). I will also practice more VR during winter and write the VR section faster (the tactic I used in this test, which worked in practice tests, was to treat VR calmly and casually and I ended up with an 8-9 average, which I thought wasn't too bad, but then the actual test was longer so I couldn't finish 2-3 passages). I plan on rewriting in January.

If I prepare for Orgo, my BS should be 12+ (I feel Orgo pulled me down a lot and Biology saved me, based on practice tests). I aim for at least a 9 VR.

Thank you very much for your help, guys!
 
i think you should apply next cycle. it's getting really late in the application process and unfortunately the gpa and VR score is going to hurt a bit
 
Thanks. Would applying to one school make me a "re-applicant" at all the other schools?
 
Not sure how the "reapplicant" stuff works, but retaking in January is worthless for you because from my understanding, only certain DO schools will accept a January MCAT score. Another poster brought up another good point. If you don't have any clinical experience you have no shot. Ever. Stop trying to rush the process. Many schools will look at your age and question your maturity and a surefire way to make them look negatively at it is to halfass your application, which you are clearly doing.
 
Bump! Would applying to one school make me a "re-applicant" at all the other schools? I'm still interested in applying to my state school at least.
 
Thanks for your answers, guys. But I'm confused now, lol. Can more people please give their opinions thx?
 
If you send your primary to a school one year, you are a reapplicant to it the next. If you didn't send it to other school you are a first time applicant.
 
It's my understanding that even if you did not apply to a particular school previously (which obviously makes you a first-time applicant to THAT program) they still know that you've tried in the past. I looked back at AMCAS and noticed the question is "have you matriculated in the past?" so maybe the others are correct. But I still think they'll know you've tried before, and were not successful. That means a re-applicant.

It's not a death sentence by any means so don't think I'm saying it is. A lot of people start medical school after their 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th attempt at applying. But I still think you should just wait and apply next year. It's a matter of months at this point, it's also very late to send in an app for this cycle.
 
AshPreMed said:
Can't I at least apply to my state school? I heard a few schools wait for my January marks if I tell them I'm retaking it (ad com told me).

Verbal reasoning isn't that essential is it? All the other sections did involve English comprehension, verbal was just a distorted version. I'm still quite capable at English as shown in my above average writing score. Won't the other parts of my application (recent GPA, EC, being in-state) possibly make up for it?
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If it wasn't that essential I don't think VR would be on the exam. I think VR is the hardest section on the MCAT, but a 6 is just not high enough. I was an English major (hopefully that means I have a good grasp on the language...haha) and the VR score still mattered, regardless of how I had proven my English skills outside of the MCAT. Distorted or not, a higher VR score will be critical. That being said, I understand how frustrating that section can be :bang:
 
AshPreMed said:
Thanks for your answers, guys. But I'm confused now, lol. Can more people please give their opinions thx?
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Unfortunately, VR is weighed the heaviest out of the three sub-sections (unfortunate, I know, but it's the truth; there is evidence out there that this score has the highest correlation to med school performance ... even more than BS/PS). Second of all, no one cares what university you went to and what it's ranked. The sooner that you get that superiority complex out of your head, the better off you'll be. A 3.2 at UT is probably worse than a 3.9 at community college of nowhere.

Third of all, as everyone in this thread said, I really think you should take a year off to raise your GPA and retake your MCAT. Your ECs look very strong asides from the lack of clinical exp/shadowing, but no one really cares about stuff done in high school and any other test aside from the MCAT, so don't include those on your apps.

Hope this helps ...
 
Thanks. I just want to correct your misunderstanding though. I am not saying I'm from a top university to declare superiority (LOL). Just to show that the low class averages are not because the students are stupid and so to show that I have grade deflation (since the 3.2 is cum laude, and 3.5 being top 10% whereas in other universities that would be a 3.7-8, class averages at my university which is known for deflation are usually 67%). Will adcoms consider that? The averages of my classes (a school where averages are C+ vs B+)? Due to the huge differences in GPAs between schools, I strongly believe that admission should be based on PERCENTILE. The top 10% at one university can be 3.5 whereas at another 3.8. The reason for the large difference is that a 3% difference in grades is amplified as a 0.4 difference in GPA (3.3 to 3.7).

Just my 2 cents.
 
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AshPreMed said:
Thanks. I just want to correct your misunderstanding though. I am not saying I'm from a top university to declare superiority (LOL). Just to show that the low class averages are not because the students are stupid and so to show that I have grade deflation (since the 3.2 is cum laude, and 3.5 being top 10% whereas in other universities that would be a 3.7-8, class averages at my university which is known for deflation are usually 67%). Will adcoms consider that? The averages of my classes (a school where averages are C+ vs B+)? Due to the huge differences in GPAs between schools, I strongly believe that admission should be based on PERCENTILE. The top 10% at one university can be 3.5 whereas at another 3.8. The reason for the large difference is that a 3% difference in grades is amplified as a 0.4 difference in GPA (3.3 to 3.7).

Just my 2 cents.
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No one here will know about your grade defllation. All we see is the gpa.
 
A high MCAT can make up for the grade deflation but your MCAT is not very good. Your gpa is pretty far below average and you're applying very late. Don't apply this year. I think most schools don't consider an MCAT score after September. You need to do something that shows that you know what you're getting into, you don't seem to have any clinical experience. There's no need to rush and you're very unprepared. It takes time to write a good personal statement and deadlines are coming up (many have passed already). You also need letters of recommendation.

Don't include stuff from high school.
 
I feel that although admins usually talk a lot about wanting "well rounded" applicants, there is a minimum limit to that. They need some guarantee that you're going to be able to pass med school classes basically. So regardless of how awesome your ECs are, your grades and MCAT are going to be the first cutoff. No admissions committee will look at 100% of every person's application. They have to do a rough screen first. So I'm not sure how many screens your 6 in VR is going to get through..
 
This 6 in VR is an anomaly! If I could write the exam this second I would do so and score much higher than that on the VR! My sciences were great and THAT is what the medical curriculum tests, isn't it Nonamesleft? Does med school give you VR tests? No, those are for patient interactions (ppl who don't speak clearly) and making sure you can understand some terribly written articles (which probably wouldn't even be accepted for publication, this is just a hurdle included in ALL the American tests). But guess what, VR has become too ridiculous you're likely not going to encounter anything like it in reality, and if you do, it probably isn't a good paper to be published in a reputable journal anyway (based on my editing experience).

I am great at sciences, AND VR, just messed up this time. VR is unpredictable. My grades have been high recently in my higher years (the more relevant, advanced, and difficult courses) and I've done pretty well with everything. Just that unpredictable and unnecessarily time-short VR...

I hope MD admissions weigh VR less. The sciences also had passages, and guess what, I did freaking great at those. Do we really have to score amazingly high at some POORLY written artistic, classical literature? In real life, good work is WRITTEN WELL. You might as well give me a passage translated into pictograms by a 3 year old and require me to ace it under insufficient time. Why not make us dance while we do so lol...? I'm just saying the VR should be weighed less, have slightly more time or not be LONGER in the actual exam (is being extremely fast really necessary? I think great comprehension at a fast enough speed is much more important), or we should be given another chance to redo VR without waiting a year for another cycle (since it is so unpredictable). :(
Just my $0.02.
 
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AshPreMed said:
This 6 in VR is an anomaly! If I could write the exam this second I would do so and score much higher than that on the VR! My sciences were great and THAT is what the medical curriculum tests, isn't it Nonamesleft? Does med school give you VR tests? No, those are for patient interactions (ppl who don't speak clearly) and making sure you can understand some terribly written articles (which probably wouldn't even be accepted for publication, this is just a hurdle included in ALL the American tests). But guess what, VR has become too ridiculous you're likely not going to encounter anything like it in reality, and if you do, it probably isn't a good paper to be published in a reputable journal anyway (based on my editing experience).

I am great at sciences, AND VR, just messed up this time. VR is unpredictable. My grades have been high recently in my higher years (the more relevant, advanced, and difficult courses) and I've done pretty well with everything. Just that unpredictable and unnecessarily time-short VR...

I hope MD admissions weigh VR less. The sciences also had passages, and guess what, I did freaking great at those. Do we really have to score amazingly high at some POORLY written artistic, classical literature? In real life, good work is WRITTEN WELL. You might as well give me a passage translated into pictograms by a 3 year old and require me to ace it under insufficient time. Why not make us dance while we do so lol...? I'm just saying the VR should be weighed less, have slightly more time or not be LONGER in the actual exam (is being extremely fast really necessary? I think great comprehension at a fast enough speed is much more important), or we should be given another chance to redo VR without waiting a year for another cycle (since it is so unpredictable). :(
Just my $0.02.
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From the University of Miami's website (straight from the ADCOMs mouth):
"Committees look particularly carefully at the verbal reasoning score because that is something that is not taught in medical school and medical school involves tons of reading and fast comprehension."

OP, please accept that ADCOMs weigh and consider your VR score heavily, probably every bit as much as your BS and PS score. You may not like it or agree with it, but arguing against it is a waste of time and energy.

Your next opportunity for a retake is January, which is too late for this cycle. The prevailing advice here is that you study hard over the next few months, retake next spring, and apply next cycle.

Best of luck.
 
You are so hung up on convincing us that VR isn't important that you are overlooking your lower GPA. You have never shared your sGPA. You keep saying that your school has grade deflation. The bottom line is you have a 3.3 cGPA and a 6 in VR. Just these 2 things don't bode well for MD acceptance this year. You need to relax and get yourself together before you apply. You also really should consider DO. What specialty are you interested in that is MD specific? Did you end up applying to your state school?

Have you looked at this chart? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12108166#post12108166

It seems to indicate that you currently have somewhere around a 22 percent chance of acceptance. IMO those aren't very good odds, especially this late in the cycle.
 
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AshPreMed said:
I hope MD admissions weigh VR less. The sciences also had passages, and guess what, I did freaking great at those. Do we really have to score amazingly high at some POORLY written artistic, classical literature? In real life, good work is WRITTEN WELL. You might as well give me a passage translated into pictograms by a 3 year old and require me to ace it under insufficient time. Why not make us dance while we do so lol...?
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lol the VR section includes passages from newspapers, social science/humanities journals, and literature. It's not like the MCAT people sit around all day trying to write VR passages to mess with your head.
 
I'm baffled as to how you did so well in the SAT and SATIIs, but bombed the MCAT...
But as long as you retake and get 30+ I can see you getting into a US MD program.
 
Thanks, gtbROX.

@cweave16, PrincetonReview repeatedly told my class that AAMC do deliberately try to make the VR section confusing by actually editing it and rearranging passages and trying to hide the context.
 
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I agree that the verbal section is stupid. I had a passage that was written in a way that was non-linear with respect to time. That was just stupid.

However, a 6 in verbal combined with your GPA makes an MD acceptance pretty much out of reach. You are also late as hell. Applying this year is simply a bad decision.

Do a one year post-bacc to raise your GPA (possibly at an easier, yet still reputable, school) and commit ~2 months to study for the MCAT. Get a 35+. You can beat verbal by developing strategies to make you go faster (I did what I called a "targeted skim", and I was averaging 12 on verbal tests). Make sure to take alot of practice tests in.

Also, get some clinical experience.
 
Thanks all but I've decided to apply now. I won't be significantly disadvantaged by being a reapplicant. If I get in, then that's great. If I don't get in, I'll get a research MSc (since I want to do an MD/PhD/MBA later).
 
Honestly, if you had spent as much time doing your application as you have complaining about grade deflation and VR, you'd probably have an interview by now.

Make sure to apply to DO schools.
 
AshPreMed said:
Thanks all but I've decided to apply now. I won't be significantly disadvantaged by being a reapplicant. If I get in, then that's great. If I don't get in, I'll get a research MSc (since I want to do an MD/PhD/MBA later).
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Poor decisions all around.

Good luck to you.
 
AshPreMed said:
Good luck to you. It seems you'll need it since you're so distraught over my applying (scared of competition). ;)
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All sarcasm aside, according to official AMCAS statistics, applicants with your GPA and MCAT have a 23.8% acceptance rate over the previous three years. In addition, you have several other major issues that will work against you: A late, late, late application; a lack of clinical experience; and an unbalanced MCAT. Those reasons are precisely why everyone here has advised you to hold off until next cycle.

In any case, I wish you the best of luck with your application.
 
It is my extreme upward trend: 3.78 in my 3rd year and 4.0 in the summer that show I'm a good student... in addition to my grade deflation (top 10% is 3.5). I think it is clear that I probably would have had a 3.7 continuously (since a B to A- jump is only 3-5%, which my university clearly deflates more than)
 
AshPreMed said:
It is my extreme upward trend: 3.78 in my 3rd year and 4.0 in the summer that show I'm a good student... in addition to my grade deflation (top 10% is 3.5). I think it is clear that I probably would have had a 3.7 continuously (since a B to A- jump is only 3-5%, which my university clearly deflates more than)
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The sheer amount of entitlement you have is dumbfounding. From one man to another: quit making excuses for yourself. Own up to what you've done. Life isn't about what you would've or could've done, it's about what you did. Instead of making excuses for why you have a low GPA and MCAT you need to do one of two things (or both): suck it up, and buckle down and fix it.
 
VR is hard I wont lie, but its not useless. Its main function is to test critical thinking and problem solving that doctors encounter outside of the basic sciences. I think everyone who has taken the MCAT can agree it is the hardest and most inconsistent area of that test. That being said what is done is done, and now you have the challenge of going forward. Since you have already decided to apply this year good luck to you, but if you dont make it into med school this year dont be discouraged. You have potential, just build on your areas that can use improvement like your clinical exposure, and retake the MCAT as you plan to do. Hope it goes well.
 
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