Whos in a better position?

[Dent010]

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Yeah to verify I meant some of the most common assumptions. First off some science major all others assumed to be equal. The rigor of the education, time of applications, and same quality of recommendations

 

[Hopefuldental]

The reason for standardized tests is because it's impossible to compare GPAs from different schools and different majors. If GPA was more important than the DAT in looking at admissions, there wouldn't be a DAT.

That being said, ad comms feel it's a given that dental students have good GPAs. From what I've been told, what differentiates the applicants is the DAT.

This reminds me of the question asked in high school: "Is it better to get a B in an honors class or an A in a regular class?" The answer we were given: "An A in an honors class."

 

[Shinpe]

You are right, the person who's world revolves around their grades, who can afford to spend 6 hours a day studying for one subject because they're living off their daddy's dime, and still can't manage a 19AA will definitely be a better DS and dentist than the student who has busted it working 2 jobs to support a family, maintained a solid 3.4, and rocked the DAT.

WOW. So you're suggesting whoever has high grades is getting money from their parents? That's the lamest thing I've seen or heard. I haven't got a dime from my parents and have worked through school and still have a 4.0, maybe not as much as some one who would have to support a family but it's BS to generalize like that. A good amount of the people I know that are supported financially well by their family actually do not care enough to study for their own good. Any person I know with such high GPAs has busted themselves through school and put that as their number one priority. It's ridiculous and insulting to say that they got it because they were paid for by their parents and had "extra" time.

And to answer the OP's question, I'd think if both were from the same school (or at least level of school), the GPA would win because it's much harder to achieve than a high DAT score. The adcoms definitely look at what school you went to, etc. and other factors though. Plus, some one who has managed themselves to have such high GPA can probably manage the DAT well enough to not get 18s.

Edit*Fixed my French ;p

 

[DrKumar43210]

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[CrazyTeeth]

2 applicants who graduated from the same school, with the same major, same rigor of courses, same everything. One had 4.0 18/18/18, another one had 3.3 21/21/21.

The 4.0 applicant will have an advantage over the 3.3 applicant. Seriously, there is no arguing about that. The question assumed equivalent schools, majors, and everything else (right, op?). My GPA and DAT are high and there is no second thought for me on this argument.

Please don't take this as an attack on your statement or anything, just curiosity... please provide your reasoning as to why? Simply stating "no arguing that" doesn't really say much.

 

[CrazyTeeth]

2 applicants who graduated from the same school, with the same major, same rigor of courses, same everything. One had 4.0 18/18/18, another one had 3.3 21/21/21.

The 4.0 applicant will have an advantage over the 3.3 applicant. Seriously, there is no arguing about that. The question assumed equivalent schools, majors, and everything else (right, op?). My GPA and DAT are high and there is no second thought for me on this argument.

No two people will live the same exact life, so it's kind of a false statement to say. There are always circumstances for why people do poorly on DAT or in school GPA.

 

[BiomajorPreDent]

I just browsed over this because im tired and theres been so many responses, but for the people who say the 4.0 could have just had a bad day..yea maybe they did have a bad day on exam day.

But whats stopping them from just retaking it on a good day?

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

I just browsed over this because im tired and theres been so many responses, but for the people who say the 4.0 could have just had a bad day..yea maybe they did have a bad day on exam day.

But whats stopping them from just retaking it on a good day?

Nothing necessarily. But there I can mention legit reasons if you want me to. But that isn't the question here. The question is comparing the two sets of stats. I am just defending that it is possible to have a bad day whey taking the DAT. One exam score doesn't show how a person always performs or will perform!

I am unbiased as I had a strong GPA and strong DAT. It doesn't matter to me which scores are worth more. Many people are going to fall into one category or the other - the GPA should count more based o the fact that they have higher GPAs and lower DAT or DAT should count for more because they have higher DAT and lower GPA. Then there are people who are lower in both categories who, well, just pray that they'll get interviews and defend that they hope the adcoms look at the entire package because that is their only shot.

 

[Zubnaya Feya]

Please don't take this as an attack on your statement or anything, just curiosity... please provide your reasoning as to why? Simply stating "no arguing that" doesn't really say much.

You don't study for the DAT for at least 3-4 years with at least 12 hours per week of classes + 24 hours per week homework + exams, midterms, labs, reports, papers, grades for all of them, etc. You study for, at most, 3-4 months, take the test for 4 hours and get 8 numbers out. GPA is like taking a pool of 1000 grades and calculating an average, while DAT is like taking 8 grades and averaging them. Which gives the more precise picture?

No two people will live the same exact life, so it's kind of a false statement to say. There are always circumstances for why people do poorly on DAT or in school GPA.

Of course but, as OP stated, we are looking at a hypothetical example where two people have same experiences, etc. When other variables come into play, it is a completely different story. That is why it takes from June to December for a group of people (known as admission committee) to decide who would be a better fit for the dental program.

 

[TedyBearSuicide]

But whats stopping them from just retaking it on a good day?

90 days and a chance of having their application put on hold.

 

[UCB05]

So how about 3.9 with 19/19/22 vs. 4.0 with 18/18/18 same school and major?

 

[xhamburgersamx]

Science courses are not hard at UCLA, you just need to know which ones to take /w the right professors and right quarter. (i.e. You don't take general chemistry during Fall quarter when everyone else does, you take it Winter).

If you have a 3.5+ GPA, you don't have to worry about your DAT score unless its under 18. You'll get interviews, you can just you had a bad day and are studying to re-take it.

 

[xhamburgersamx]

So how about 3.9 with 19/19/22 vs. 4.0 with 18/18/18 same school and major?

Does it matter. This is like comparing a person that is 5'10 and 190 lbs to a 5'11 person weighing 188 lbs.

the difference is not in physical size but on appearance of your application (i.e. how good looking you are).

 

[Zubnaya Feya]

You guys just don't know how competitive science classes at UCLA. The science sections on DAT is a joke compare to science classes that i take at UCLA.

Science classes are competitive at many universities. But you have to think of it as an advantage to you: you study harder and harder and, therefore, get more knowledge to rock the DAT and so on. In the end, competitive classes benefit you as a dental school applicant.

 

[enfuego]

There are so many features of a university that can influence a student's grades (grading styles, class sizes, quality of professors, opportunities for extra credit, difficulty of tests, amount of assigned work, etc). In my opinion, it's almost impossible to compare GPAs from different schools.

Not to mention there are many things that can occur in 4 years that can influence GPA that don't indicate work ethic or intelligence (adjusting to college freshman year, family emergencies / crises, illness / health issues, non-academic responsibilities, etc).

The DAT may have different versions, but they're probably more similar than all the various undergrad institutions out there. (I wonder if they also notate which version you took?) It's also true that the DAT tests more basic, general knowledge and probably isn't as difficult as the tests we take in school. But it puts everyone on an even playing field. It's one way that applicants can be compared because it's one thing that's the same among everyone.

I think GPA and DAT should be weighted the same. GPA is obviously important, but DAT is crucial to compare students from different universities, backgrounds, life experiencies, etc.

However, if the applicants are somehow identical in every way, then I think the higher GPA would win over the higher DAT. But that's pretty much an impossible situation, so it's irrelevant. Especially since each person experiences the same situation differently.

 

[doc3232]

You don't study for the DAT for at least 3-4 years with at least 12 hours per week of classes + 24 hours per week homework + exams, midterms, labs, reports, papers, grades for all of them, etc. You study for, at most, 3-4 months, take the test for 4 hours and get 8 numbers out. GPA is like taking a pool of 1000 grades and calculating an average, while DAT is like taking 8 grades and averaging them. Which gives the more precise picture?

Only problem with that is that the two overlap. You take science classes over those 4 years that prepare you for the DAT.
The DAT gives the better picture because it sets an even playing field for everyone.

 

[Zubnaya Feya]

Only problem with that is that the two overlap. You take science classes over those 4 years that prepare you for the DAT.
The DAT gives the better picture because it sets an even playing field for everyone.

The two overlap, I understand. But that only means that a person with higher GPA should theoretically score high on the DAT. The person with higher GPA should have more knowledge on the subjects of the test to begin with (based on previous evaluations of knowledge from professors, which are grades) compared to a person with lower GPA. Our argument here is different.

Even though the two overlap, I am quite sure you study for your classes and for the DAT separately and, quite possibly, with a long time period in between.

Also, although it is impossible to find two identical people with just different GPAs and DAT scores, it is quite possible to have two people graduating from the same school, having similar EC experiences (because they were living in the same area), and so on. I am quite sure admission committees sometimes have to make a decision of what they count more: DAT or GPA.

 

[liriano]

NAVY DDS:

The things that occurred to you are tough to deal with, and I understand your point of view. But I disagree greatly. You, in a good way, throw a wrench in your argument. You did well on the DAT, and you have a good GPA. If something were to happen during the leadup to your exam, wouldn't a 4.0 student be smart enough to reschedule? And if it happens the night before, what happened to voiding? A good student should know when they aren't up to snuff, and they should adjust accordingly.

If you are a practicing dentist, are you going to tell your patients I can't do your root canal because my mother died this morning? I can't do your surgery because I'm too stressed? NO - you have an obligation to your practice. If you can't perform, excuse yourself, assign one of your associates to your patients for the day, and leave.


Your reasons can affect someone in a negative way, I understand that. We all are different. But being a good student (with a 4.0) doesn't happen overnight. You made good decisions along the way (studying when others were going out, going the extra mile to understand topics, etc.) I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden, the 4.0 student wouldn't make the right decision with regards to the DAT because something deleterious occurred in their life. In that case, it DOES reflect bad on the student - they should know that they are not up to par and void and/or reschedule their exam to a point where they can perform at the highest level.

The DAT is a standardized exam. It levels the playing field. YOU schedule it to when you think you will be ready, and you take it then. Your score, whether tragedy is going on or not, is on YOU - not on what you are going through.


You are a great student according to your stats. You had enough common sense as a GOOD student to know when to take your DAT, how to prepare for it, and how to execute when the time came. If something occurred in your life where you wouldn't feel confident in taking the exam, you should make adjustments to change the test time or void. If you did not, and you take the test anyway, that is a lapse in YOUR JUDGEMENT, and you have no one to blame but yourself. Coming to an interview and stating to the adcom member that "I was feeling extremely distraught over the death of my aunt the night before the DAT" is not a valid excuse to them (you could have made it up for all they know). The competition is too fierce. KNOWING THAT GOING IN, a 4.0 student (or any student for that matter) should use their better judgement when faced with adversity. If they don't, that should count against them.

 

[Vicviper]

I think on the face value, the 4.0 would probably win out at most schools, but there's just so much more to look at than the raw numbers. DAT/GPA is really only 2/3 of what they're looking at (as per a UCSF Adcom member). The 4.0 could have taken only the pre-reqs, and then taken all easy classes to finish off, and the 3.3 could have gone really in depth and taken lots of classes and gotten some B's, and possibly a C here or there. Etc, etc, millions of possiblities here. But when it comes down to it, I really think someone who did horribly for various reasons in their first year or two, and then did amazing to finish it out, and had a killer PS possibly explaining the first two years, great EC's, and great letters with a 3.3 21AA would win out over someone with a 4.0 18AA with only mediocre of everything else many times. But then again, it depends on what the school is looking for, some schools really like the DAT, like Columbia, and that has much more weight than a lower GPA, I know it did for me.

 

[UCB05]

Does it matter. This is like comparing a person that is 5'10 and 190 lbs to a 5'11 person weighing 188 lbs.

the difference is not in physical size but on appearance of your application (i.e. how good looking you are).

Basis for this thread was op comparing him/herself to a classmate with the lower GPA/higher DAT scores. I would assume the op favors the higher gpa for obvious reasons. I asked what op would say if the situation was switched around slightly.

 

[UCB05]

Science classes are competitive at many universities. But you have to think of it as an advantage to you: you study harder and harder and, therefore, get more knowledge to rock the DAT and so on. In the end, competitive classes benefit you as a dental school applicant.

To a point. The competition can be so tough that no matter how hard you work your ass off, the best you can get is a 3.2 or less. The DAT gives that applicant the chance to prove him/herself on a level playing field. Bench warmer on Duke basketball team or four year starter on a Cal Poly basketball team? Play ball!

 

[alanan84]

WOW. So you're suggesting whoever has high grades is getting money from their parents? That's the lamest thing I've seen or heard. I haven't got a dime from my parents and have worked through school and still have a 4.0, maybe not as much as some one who would have to support a family but it's BS to generalize like that. A good amount of the people I know that are supported financially well by their family actually do not care enough to study for their own good. Any person I know with such high GPAs has busted themselves through school and put that as their number one priority. It's ridiculous and insulting to say that they got it because they were paid for by their parents and had "extra" time.

And to answer the OP's question, I'd think if both were from the same school (or at least level of school), the GPA would win because it's much harder to achieve than a high DAT score. The adcoms definitely look at what school you went to, etc. and other factors though. Plus, some one who has managed themselves to have such high GPA can probably manage the DAT well enough to not get 18s.

Edit*Fixed my French ;p

Whoa man, if you read through the posts you'll see that that comment was a somewhat sarcastic one in response to a previous post. Sure it is a HUGE generalization. I'm not downgrading anyone who has a 4.0. They've earned it! But not everyone is on an even playing field so it's just not really comparable.

I have a one year old son and HAVE to work full time to pay the bills. Can you imagine how stressed I was last Fall when in the middle of the semester I lost the job that provided our income and health insurance? That is not something the "normal" student has to deal with in the middle of an already rigorous academic semester. (I was taking Biochem along with 3 other classes) At least not the students at my school...

 

[NAVY DDS 2010]

Regarding the rescheduling thing liriano, yes, ultimately the blame would fall onto the test taker that they didn't reschedule. But rescheduling is not always an option. But, that said, don't tell me you have never been in a situation where you pushed yourself to do somethign no matter what the situation was.. If you play sports, have you never played when you aer sick or injured when you know you should have sat out. As well as you normally can play, in your mind you think you will be fine and in the end your bat speed was a little behind or you pitching speed was a little slow or your running speed was a little off. Any one of these things can greatly affect the outcome of the game just because you felt you could fight through it. Don't tell me people don't regularly take exams when they are sick. When you are sick, and you know something is important, a lot of people will convince themselves they are feeling better than they really are and fight throught it. After something tragic, you look for a sense of normalcy anywhere you can. Although the DAT is one of the more imoprtant exams you will take, a person feel they can fight their emotions and take the exam because it will get their mind off the situation. If you look a the different cultures we have here on SDN and you see some of the posts, you will see that people are raised in families that have different beliefs. A person can also have been raised in a family where the are told to just suck it up. Even if you are hurting physically or emotionslly, you are a fighter and just go in there and kick some butt. These people are more likely going to take the exam than reschedule.

Then there is the situation where someone decides to apply a year earlier than they anticipated. This happens all the time. This may be later in the cycle. At that point, getting the DAT taken is most important thing. They may not have time to reschedule in their eyes. They feel they should be fine, so they take the exam. At this point, they may not be able to retake the exam in time for the application cycle, or they will already have had their interview by the time they could retake.

This comment of your, it is such an ignorant one. 'The competition is too fierce. KNOWING THAT GOING IN, a 4.0 student (or any student for that matter) should use their better judgement when faced with adversity. If they don't, that should count against them.' Adcoms look at a person who has fought through adversity as a POSITIVE thing. If a person has faced adverse things in their life and made it through those thigns, usually they come out a better person. The adverse things can explain lower scores. Here is a question for you. I know two people who have been in this next situation. A person has developed a serious disease (cancer is one good example). Are you telling me it is their own fault that they chhose to go to school while being treated for the illness and they have a bad semester? Have you ever been through chemo or a radiation treatments? I can guarantee you that the adcoms will look at that person fighting though during that semester, no matter whether they did well or not, as an extremely powerful indication of that person's drive to get where they want in life. That they are fighters. Sir/ma'am, your statement is such an ignorant and very narrow minded one. To actually believe that if you choose to face adversity and fight throught it and that you should be penalized for it, I really feel sorry for you because that is so far from the truth in the eyes of the adcoms. How you face adversity determines a person's character and is a better indicator of how they work towards being a dentist. A person who faces hard times and powers through them (even if their are a few road bumps along the way) will always be looked at more favorably than someone who runs from these adverse times and takes the easy road.

More comments embedded in the quote below.


I'm done defnding my viewpoint here. I will believe what I know. You believe what you want to believe. No matter what each other believes, in the end, all that matters is what the ADCOMS believe and how they perceive the exam

I am not trying to be mean here liriano. I am just telling the truth. No matter what you say, your view is always going to be biased because your GPA sucks and the only hope you have is a view point that they hopefully look at a high DAT more than a high GPA. SO, no matter what I say, you are going to fight against my opinions because it is your only hopevto agree with your beliefs in order to become a dentist . For your sake, you better pray the schools you are applying to weigh the DAT a little more.

NAVY DDS:

The things that occurred to you are tough to deal with, and I understand your point of view. But I disagree greatly. You, in a good way, throw a wrench in your argument. You did well on the DAT, and you have a good GPA. If something were to happen during the leadup to your exam, wouldn't a 4.0 student be smart enough to reschedule? And if it happens the night before, what happened to voiding? A good student should know when they aren't up to snuff, and they should adjust accordingly.

If you are a practicing dentist, are you going to tell your patients I can't do your root canal because my mother died this morning? I can't do your surgery because I'm too stressed? NO - you have an obligation to your practice. If you can't perform, excuse yourself, assign one of your associates to your patients for the day, and leave. Dude, this is totally different from the other points. Fighting through adversity when you are dealing with your own life's issues is one thing. But anyone with half a brain would know that once you factor in that you are treating another person, the factors behind your decesions will change. Most people look differently at things when looking at how they will affect others as compared to how they will affect their own self. A dentist who treats their patients ethically will only treat the patients if they are going to give them care that meets the standard of care. Everyone is going to have bad days that they will fight through, but if you cannot feel you can safely and adequately perform the procedure for the day as a healthcare provider it is your duty to step aside and reschedule or find someone to take your place. Otherwise, that is called MALPRACTICE. That is totally different than taking an exam when sick or facing adversity.


Your reasons can affect someone in a negative way, I understand that. We all are different. But being a good student (with a 4.0) doesn't happen overnight. You made good decisions along the way (studying when others were going out, going the extra mile to understand topics, etc.) I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden, the 4.0 student wouldn't make the right decision with regards to the DAT because something deleterious occurred in their life. In that case, it DOES reflect bad on the student - they should know that they are not up to par and void and/or reschedule their exam to a point where they can perform at the highest level.

The DAT is a standardized exam. It levels the playing field. YOU schedule it to when you think you will be ready, and you take it then. Your score, whether tragedy is going on or not, is on YOU - not on what you are going through.


You are a great student according to your stats. You had enough common sense as a GOOD student to know when to take your DAT, how to prepare for it, and how to execute when the time came. If something occurred in your life where you wouldn't feel confident in taking the exam, you should make adjustments to change the test time or void. If you did not, and you take the test anyway, that is a lapse in YOUR JUDGEMENT, and you have no one to blame but yourself. Coming to an interview and stating to the adcom member that "I was feeling extremely distraught over the death of my aunt the night before the DAT" is not a valid excuse to them (you could have made it up for all they know). The competition is too fierce. KNOWING THAT GOING IN, a 4.0 student (or any student for that matter) should use their better judgement when faced with adversity. If they don't, that should count against them.

 

[preden]

LIke someone above mentioned.... if two people have the same major and they are going to the same school, then definitely the one who has the higher GPA is a better candidate as long his or her DAT is not too low like 17.

Another thing is that I know a lot of people screw up their first two years for some reasons and then starting to get mostly As on their last two years. In this case then the person with the lower GPA MIGHT have a little bit better chance if his or her DAT is higher than the person with a higher GPA and a lower DAT.

Basically, I think that schools will look for trend in your GPA from fresman to senior, especially your last two years!!

Anyways, I'm rooting for people with high GPA because we worked our butt off for four years to get a high GPA not just three or four months of studying.

 

[Zubnaya Feya]

To a point. The competition can be so tough that no matter how hard you work your ass off, the best you can get is a 3.2 or less. The DAT gives that applicant the chance to prove him/herself on a level playing field. Bench warmer on Duke basketball team or four year starter on a Cal Poly basketball team? Play ball!

If the competition is so hard and you get only a 3.2, the student who took the same class and got a 4.0 would definitely be given my hands up, even if his DAT is 2-3 points lower than of the 3.2 student. Moreover, if 4.0 grades go throughout college career in competitive classes, I believe this student mastered the studying and retaining knowledge skills and will be a better candidate for success in dental school and beyond.

 

[liriano]

NAVY DDS:

I hear your viewpoint and respect it. But let me correct you if I may on some of your points. First, I didn't say that adversity is a bad thing. I said that if you are facing adversity, a 4.0 student, at least I would hope, would have the sense to reschedule/void an exam. I don't really care what someone has been through, to be honest. We all have our trials. But I do know this, even as a "crappy GPA" student: my DAT scores will matter, and it is a huge part of my application. If I don't show up today (I took mine at the end of June) then I am screwed. Of course there are things going on in my life and others where our performance could suffer. But that doesn't mean jack to an adcom person who is looking at applicants with better numbers.

If you are facing an adverse situation, "know thyself". You owe it to yourself to give yourself the best opportunity to do your best. If you ignore the way you feel and somehow think you can power through and end up doing poorly, THEN YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET. Life sucks. Get over it. Everybody else did what they had to do in terms of performing well on the DAT to make themselves an attractive candidate. They shouldn't, and most likely won't be penalized for that. You, ironically, did understand the importance of how crucial the DAT was, set aside whatever was going on in your life at the time, and rocked it. So why are you defending someone who didn't -especially a 4.0 student who should know better than to do that versus a "crappy GPA" student like me?

I am not going to go tit-for-tat with you about accomplishments since you think your GPA proves that you are smarter than me. You can look at my former posts, DAT breakdown (shameless plug), and predents profile if your are interested. I think you were in med school as well previously, as I was. So I am not going to go there. You are right about me sticking to my beliefs, though. I think you are wrong. Good luck.

 

[Shinpe]

Whoa man, if you read through the posts you'll see that that comment was a somewhat sarcastic one in response to a previous post. Sure it is a HUGE generalization. I'm not downgrading anyone who has a 4.0. They've earned it! But not everyone is on an even playing field so it's just not really comparable.

I have a one year old son and HAVE to work full time to pay the bills. Can you imagine how stressed I was last Fall when in the middle of the semester I lost the job that provided our income and health insurance? That is not something the "normal" student has to deal with in the middle of an already rigorous academic semester. (I was taking Biochem along with 3 other classes) At least not the students at my school...

I see your point now, but you have to admit, not that many people are in your situation. I am comparing some one with same school and situations (having or not having to work 10-15 hrs a week). You have special circumstances which the adcoms would definitely take into considerations, but there are many people who have low GPAs just due to not putting in the required effort, laziness, etc. Such special circumstances like having a family, raising kids, extra work, etc are not that common and I think would be looked at on a case by case basis. I personally think if some one messes up the first one or two years and then comes back around and makes up for it, they should be given a second chance. (not your situation but could be some one else's reason). Anywayz, all in all, without special circumstances, and same schools stuff, I don't think there's much of a question. But yes, when some situations happen and the school knows through personal statement, etc, I think it definitely makes a difference.

 

[ozzie33]

GPA is more important without any questions asked. Comparing at least 4 years of hard work vs at most 2-3 months of studying for a 4-hour test is like comparing FC Barcelona to FC Sounders.

but at the same time, GPa is extremely misleading. If I got a 89.3 in a class and another person got a 90 in that class, he would have a 3.7 and I would have a 3.3...where as if I got a 93 and he got a 100, we would have the same GPA...doesn't seem fair. Also, I don't care what you say, different professors are easier. I worked my ass off to get a B+ in the second genchem, and my old roommate got the same grade, then he showed me his tests, and they weren't even over the same things.

In my case, my GPA isn't THAT low, but the DAT was my way of showing the schools that I learned the material as well or better than people who have higher GPA'S than me.

IF you have a 4.0 and you got an 18 on the DAT, then you obviously didn't learn the material as well as someone who has a 3.3 and a 21 on the DAT, whether you had an easier professor, bigger curve, or some other reason.

Also, to the person who talked about huge things happening in their life, you can take the DAT more than once and you can reschedule it. Also, breaking up with a BF or girlfriend in college should in no way be similar to a family member dying, I know someone who recently had both happen to him and he has had no problem with motivations studying for the dat.

 

[Zubnaya Feya]

but at the same time, GPa is extremely misleading. If I got a 89.3 in a class and another person got a 90 in that class, he would have a 3.7 and I would have a 3.3...where as if I got a 93 and he got a 100, we would have the same GPA...doesn't seem fair. Also, I don't care what you say, different professors are easier. I worked my ass off to get a B+ in the second genchem, and my old roommate got the same grade, then he showed me his tests, and they weren't even over the same things.
1) Again, think about it: 3-4-5-6 years of undergrad equals many many grades. They all average out in the end. You don't always get an 89.3, sometimes you get 90.3 and receive a 3.7 or whatev. You have 180 quarter credits to complete to get Bachelor's degree - that is a lot of classes and grades.
2) Overall variability that you might come across in classes also averages out better than in DAT exams, again because you have a lot of classes. Go to the DAT subforum and see how many people are complaining about "piano" or "ethics" or whatever test versions and how different they are. Is that not misleading?

In my case, my GPA isn't THAT low, but the DAT was my way of showing the schools that I learned the material as well or better than people who have higher GPA'S than me.

IF you have a 4.0 and you got an 18 on the DAT, then you obviously didn't learn the material as well as someone who has a 3.3 and a 21 on the DAT, whether you had an easier professor, bigger curve, or some other reason.

How is that "obvious," I don't understand? 4.0 vs 3.3 is an obvious difference over at least 4 years of undergrad, while 18 and 21 is not so much after 3 months of studying.

Also, to the person who talked about huge things happening in their life, you can take the DAT more than once and you can reschedule it. Also, breaking up with a BF or girlfriend in college should in no way be similar to a family member dying, I know someone who recently had both happen to him and he has had no problem with motivations studying for the dat.

Above

 

[doc3232]

There is no proof that different DAT exam versions are not equally difficult. You can't claim variability there. 😉

 

[denner]

but at the same time, GPa is extremely misleading. If I got a 89.3 in a class and another person got a 90 in that class, he would have a 3.7 and I would have a 3.3...where as if I got a 93 and he got a 100, we would have the same GPA...doesn't seem fair. Also, I don't care what you say, different professors are easier. I worked my ass off to get a B+ in the second genchem, and my old roommate got the same grade, then he showed me his tests, and they weren't even over the same things.
How is that misleading, everyone knew what the cutoffs were going in, everyone has the same opportunity to get an A. If you get it, you get it, if you don't you don't. I would also argue that the smarter, more intelligent person would choose the "easier" teacher. Why would you not? Undergrad is just a means to an end (dental school). If we could get into dental school by going through one year of pre-reqs we would, but we have to jump through the hoops like a good pet and play the game.

In my case, my GPA isn't THAT low, but the DAT was my way of showing the schools that I learned the material as well or better than people who have higher GPA'S than me.
It's very easy to see that those with low GPA's high DAT think that they are in a better position than those with high GPA's and low DAT and vice versa. Its understandable and just human nature to try to defend your position in the hope that you are in the better situation, but in reality, it just depends on the school and individual circumstances that will vary from person to person. I'm not directing this at you, but at everyone who fits into these circumstances.

IF you have a 4.0 and you got an 18 on the DAT, then you obviously didn't learn the material as well as someone who has a 3.3 and a 21 on the DAT, whether you had an easier professor, bigger curve, or some other reason.
Or, maybe, just maybe, they had ONE bad test day. Maybe they actually know it better and worked harder than you during school to get those good grades. That is also a possibility.

Also, to the person who talked about huge things happening in their life, you can take the DAT more than once and you can reschedule it. Also, breaking up with a BF or girlfriend in college should in no way be similar to a family member dying, I know someone who recently had both happen to him and he has had no problem with motivations studying for the dat.
Yes, because you know ONE person who reacted a certain way to a certain situation, that means that everyone will act the same way. You know...I think that may be the 4th law of thermodynamics (but don't quote me).

added my thoughts above

and while I was typing I was beaten by Zubnaya Feya. I go to the box, I feel shame.

 

[UCB05]

If the competition is so hard and you get only a 3.2, the student who took the same class and got a 4.0 would definitely be given my hands up, even if his DAT is 2-3 points lower than of the 3.2 student. Moreover, if 4.0 grades go throughout college career in competitive classes, I believe this student mastered the studying and retaining knowledge skills and will be a better candidate for success in dental school and beyond.

We're actually on the same page. Same school, major (apples to apples) etc., GPA takes it. Pretty sure no argument from anyone. Disconnect is in different school/major (apples to oranges) etc.

 

[peerless218]

lol! I have not yet! But man do i waste too much time playing gears... i think i would have scored a point higher on my DAT if gears of war didn't exist.

haha good thing I got hooked on gears AFTER undergrad. That's pretty much what I do now.....Yes I work full time on xbox live as peerless218. Come and own me!!! I am pretty much a free kill if you wanna build up your stats.

 

[Zubnaya Feya]

There is no proof that different DAT exam versions are not equally difficult. You can't claim variability there. 😉

Likewise there is no proof that even if there are different test versions of the same test in one class in undergrad they are different from each other complexity-wise.

I actually agree (or want to believe) that DAT test versions are of the same complexity. I had ethics passage and FRAP bio test, but I did well (23 bio, 19 RC). You will get a much "different" response from peeps who have taken different DAT versions on that subforum😀

 

[alanan84]

There is no proof that different DAT exam versions are not equally difficult. You can't claim variability there. 😉

True.

From the ADA's DAT examinee guide:

"Two characteristics allow users to evaluate the quality of a test. These are reliability and validity. Reliability refers to the degree to which test scores are consistent across administrations of the test. If test scores are reliable, then they are dependable and repeatable for an individual examinee. The findings of annual studies clearly indicate that DAT scores are highly reliable."

 

[ozzie33]

added my thoughts above

and while I was typing I was beaten by Zubnaya Feya. I go to the box, I feel shame.

thing is, many exams in difficult classes are graded subjectively, there have been many times when I have written the exact same mechanism as my roommate and one of us got a lower score because different TA's graded them. My main point though was that anyone would look at a person with a 3.7 as being a better candidate than a person with a 3.3 (strictly GPA wise), but they could have had a 1% difference in their actual grade. If GPA was on a straight conversion (divide the percentage in the class by 25 instead of first converting to A or B) then I would agree with you, but the way it exists now i feel like it doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[dmd87]

GPA = your performance before
DAT = your performance now

A low GPA may or may not indicate slacker status. Basically a GPA tells a story.
The DAT score answers the yes or no question, can you perform?

I'd say of the choices I'd go with a high DAT and low GPA but with an increasing trend over the years. Like I said, it tells the story of your improvement and the DAT score is the exclamation point at the end.

definitely agree with this one

 

[armorshell]

My opinion -

GPA - Measures work ethic, not intelligence.
DAT - Measures intelligence, validates (or invalidates) GPA.

The two (GPA, DAT) come as a package. I would say the two candidates outlined by the OP would probably be on similar ground. I personally would look at a high standardized test score with an increasing trend in GPA pretty highly, but that's my background so I'm obviously biased.

 

[4thMolar]

Above

I'd have to agree with Zubnaya Feya here. 4 years of undergrad GPA vs. a 4 hour exam. To me, all the variability will be accounted for after a four year tenure, and to do consistently well over this 4 year period would prove a better judge of capacity and scholastic ability than a DAT exam, although I'm not in any way discrediting the importance and significance of this exam.

 

[alanan84]

My opinion -

GPA - Measures work ethic, not intelligence.
DAT - Measures intelligence, validates (or invalidates) GPA.

The two (GPA, DAT) come as a package. I would say the two candidates outlined by the OP would probably be on similar ground. I personally would look at a high standardized test score with an increasing trend in GPA pretty highly, but that's my background so I'm obviously biased.

👍

 

[armorshell]

I'd have to agree with Zubnaya Feya here. 4 years of undergrad GPA vs. a 4 hour exam. To me, all the variability will be accounted for after a four year tenure, and to do consistently well over this 4 year period would prove a better judge of capacity and scholastic ability than a DAT exam, although I'm not in any way discrediting the importance and significance of this exam.

But the ability to learn and retain information is of utmost importance to a future medical professional, as well is the ability of a future dental student to be able to rapidly learn and assimilate information from several subjects all at the same time (Drink from the firehose).

I've, in my tenure at dental school, seen some students with amazing undergrad GPAs crash and burn because they're used to having weeks upon weeks to study 6 hours/day for every exam in the 4 classes they took per quarter.

Like I said before, it's a package.

 

[Shinpe]

My opinion -

GPA - Measures work ethic, not intelligence.
DAT - Measures intelligence, validates (or invalidates) GPA.

The two (GPA, DAT) come as a package. I would say the two candidates outlined by the OP would probably be on similar ground. I personally would look at a high standardized test score with an increasing trend in GPA pretty highly, but that's my background so I'm obviously biased.

How does GPA not measure intelligence? Maybe depends on major but I know of a couple of people in our department (bioengineering) who bust their arses more than I do and still cant break a 3.5. Actually I was thinking it's the other way around than what you are saying. DAT is not complicated or vague, it just requires a lot of determination and work ethic and organization to get yourself prepared for it and go through all sample tests, etc. I think there's a big correlation between how much time you spend (and how well you utilize that time) studying for DAT and how well you score. I have a high GPA, and I did well on DAT too but there's no way I would have pulled that off if I hadn't studied everything that I did. If I had taken DAT after 1 week of studying, I would have scored nothing above 18/19 in the sciences.

I guess in terms of biased-ness, i'm not really biased either since I have both, but I know I put in MUCH MUCH more effort (and was much harder to achieve) into my GPA obviously, and as I'm sure everyone else did. That's why I think that would count more. Anyways, adcoms will make final decisions.

*Edit*: This is not to say that DAT doesn't require intellect or high GPA doesn't require work ethic. They both require much of both worlds. But if I was to say either of them is tilted more towards one side, I'd say a little opposite of yours.

 

[4thMolar]

But the ability to learn and retain information is of utmost importance to a future medical professional, as well is the ability of a future dental student to be able to rapidly learn and assimilate information from several subjects all at the same time (Drink from the firehose).

I've, in my tenure at dental school, seen some students with amazing undergrad GPAs crash and burn because they're used to having weeks upon weeks to study 6 hours/day for every exam in the 4 classes they took per quarter.

Like I said before, it's a package.

Yeah, I agree with you on that and I'll take your word on it since you're in dental school and I'm not. I'm sure students will have to change and develop their study strategies just like they did when they first started undergrad...the initial culture shock of the intensity of dental school may initially send some reeling, but they'll learn to work more effectively, just like in undergrad.

 

[Contach]

a better question to ask is, what does the research say about one's GPA and one's DAT predicting performance in dental school. there have been many studies on this, as the data and stats that need to be run are pretty elementary, and it helps adcoms make decisions on what to look at.

there was a point in my life where I would find those studies and post them here. but that point is not now.

 

[ozzie33]

I'd have to agree with Zubnaya Feya here. 4 years of undergrad GPA vs. a 4 hour exam. To me, all the variability will be accounted for after a four year tenure, and to do consistently well over this 4 year period would prove a better judge of capacity and scholastic ability than a DAT exam, although I'm not in any way discrediting the importance and significance of this exam.

Yea but ONE bad grade or one bad quarter can tank a GPA, regardless of otherwise stellar performance. The two worst grades I have had are a C and a B-, and I have still been on the deans list every quarter since the first quarter at college, and those two grades bring my GPA down a significant amount, I can only imagine what a D or F would do.

Also you say DAT could be affect by a breakup or a rough situation, what about a quarter or semester. A death in the family would have much more impact on a quarter of classes than a DAT test that doesn't require attendance, has no homework, and can be rescheduled anytime. Compare that to missing a week of class for funeral and whatnot, never being able to catch up, and still having to deal with that death while catching up with a weeks worth of classes.

 

[ResidentPersian]

Okay, let me chime in on this topic. I have a fairly close relationship with the head of admissions at one of the top dental schools. This is what he told me in regards to GPAs and DAT scores:

The first thing they look at is your GPA and what school you attend. The higher the GPA the better obviously. However, a 3.5 from MIT looks A LOT better than a 4.0 from some random college in Bumble****, Pa. If you have a good GPA from a good school, you will look good as long as you do not bomb the DAT. HOWEVER, if you go to a less competitive school and you get a 4.0, you BETTER prove yourself on the DAT b/c admissions officers know that some schools throw around A's and 4.0's arbitrarily. Most schools have a "formula" system in regards to GPA's and DAT scores. If you got a top school (i.e. a top private university), they sometimes multiply your GPA by some number to separate you from someoen from a lesser school and they may DIVIDE your GPA if you go to a smaller school. For example, if you go to UPenn and you get a 3.3, they may multiply your GPA by 1.2 or 1.3 to separate taht applicant from someone who goes to little known Wilkes University. At the same time, they may divide the GPA of that person from Wilkes by 1.1 or 1.2 or somethingl ike that to compensate for that person going to the a smaller, less competitive school.

Also, for those of you who are slaving away at jobs during undergrad, you may not like what I'm going to say next. The ADCOM's response to me asking about someoen who's GPA was compromised by having to work a full time job in college was: "Quit and take out a loan." It's not fair, but that's reality. While it looks good to work while in undergrad, which is my case (I work around 30 hours a week managing a gym and professional training while double majoring at a top private university..no easy task), if your working hinders your academic performance in any way, ADCOMS wont be shedding tears for you. They want to see you perform well academically because that is the only thing they can judge you on. They don't have the time to snoop around and find out how hard you work at your job, or how your job affects your peformance.

Schools also want to see how active you are. If you get a 4.0 and a 22 DAT, but don't do anything in terms of extracurriculars, jobs, etc, then that's going ot hurt you. They want well rounded students, not bookworms. They know that 90 percent of the people who apply are qualiified to be at their school, but they need something to separate the applicants who have similar scores....and that's the extra curriuclars.


To sum thigns up, the most important factors to ADCOMs (at least at top schools) are: 1) your science GPA (BCP in particular), 2) what school you went to, and 3) your DAT scores (if your GPA is lower, or if you went to a smaller, less competiitive school), 4) your extracurriuclars.

Now, not every school is the same and some schools value certain things over others. For example, Harvard and Columbia value Research experience more than any other school, while schools like Temple don't relaly care AS MUCH about research experience. So, there is no set formula, however, what I stated above is the "general rule of thumb" that most ADCOMs abide by...at least according to the Admissions Head that I know.

 

[denner]

Yea but ONE bad grade or one bad quarter can tank a GPA, regardless of otherwise stellar performance.

Yes, we know, but I don't get your argument. Because one bad grade dropped your GPA, now we shouldn't think GPA is as important? Your GPA is your GPA. And while schools can try to account for differences in overall difficulty between a place like Harvard and a small liberal arts college in BFE, they cannot account for differences in grading between TA's or that your teacher decided to round down instead of up on your grade, so I doubt they really take that into consideration no matter your opinion on whether it fairly represents your grades or not.

Also, I sort of agree with armorshell and I sorta don't. Like was brought up in one of the following posts, the DAT is pretty basic material. Everyone's classes covered much harder material than the DAT and I feel they require a higher level of understanding and intelligence than the DAT ever could. I still think the DAT is more about your ability to "show up when the game's on the line" kind of thing than a measure of intelligence or work ethic. The DAT is obviously very important, I just disagree that a GPA doesn't reflect intelligence along with work ethic.

To sum thigns up, the most important factors to ADCOMs (at least at top schools) are: 1) your science GPA (BCP in particular), 2) what school you went to, and 3) your DAT scores (if your GPA is lower, or if you went to a smaller, less competiitive school), 4) your extracurriuclars.

I don't doubt they consider what school you went to for undergrad when comparing GPAs, but I can't imagine they would put it above DAT scores (at least for 99% of schools).

 

[ResidentPersian]

Yes, we know, but I don't get your argument. Because one bad grade dropped your GPA, now we shouldn't think GPA is as important?

Also, I sort of agree with armorshell and I sorta don't. Like was brought up in one of the following posts, the DAT is pretty basic material. Everyone's classes covered much harder material than the DAT and I feel they require a higher level of understanding and intelligence than the DAT ever could. I still think the DAT is more about your ability to "show up when the game's on the line" kind of thing than a measure of intelligence or work ethic. The DAT is obviously very important, I just disagree that a GPA doesn't reflect intelligence along with work ethic.



I don't doubt they consider what school you went to for undergrad, but I can't imagine they would put it above DAT scores.

They (the top schools) certainly do consider what school you go to for undergrad. They know a 3.5 at MIT is different than a 3.5 from NoName U. They know someoen who goes to a top school and succeedes there is much more likely to succeed at their school than someone who does well at a less competitive school. The top school use the DAT to "separate" those with good GPA's or they give the people with lower GPA's an opportunity to redeem themselves. For instance, if someone who has a 3.3 gets a 23 or 24 AA, that will look a lot better than someone who has a 3.6 and a 18 or 19. At the same time, the DAT can be used to make up for poor grade in certain classes. For example, if you did poorly in Calc I your freshman year, but did well on the QR section, they will know what you're capable of doing math and that you're "improved" since taking that class...at the same time, if you bobm the QR section, but did well in Calc, they will know that the low QR score was an abberation and won't count it as much.

To ADCOMs, GPA is much more important than DAT (in general) because a high GPA is a better indicator an indivdiual's success on exam, etc -- If you work hard in undergrand, you'll probably work harrd and have success in grad school. On the other hand, if you do poorly in undergrand adn SUDDENLY do well on your DAT's, they might see you as a slacker who only "turned it on" for the big day. they don't like that very much. They'd prefer the person who proved themselves by working hard year round.

 

[armorshell]

They (the top schools) certainly do consider what school you go to for undergrad. They know a 3.5 at MIT is different than a 3.5 from NoName U. They know someoen who goes to a top school and succeedes there is much more likely to succeed at their school than someone who does well at a less competitive school. The top school use the DAT to "separate" those with good GPA's or they give the people with lower GPA's an opportunity to redeem themselves. For instance, if someone who has a 3.3 gets a 23 or 24 AA, that will look a lot better than someone who has a 3.6 and a 18 or 19. At the same time, the DAT can be used to make up for poor grade in certain classes. For example, if you did poorly in Calc I your freshman year, but did well on the QR section, they will know what you're capable of doing math and that you're "improved" since taking that class...at the same time, if you bobm the QR section, but did well in Calc, they will know that the low QR score was an abberation and won't count it as much.

To ADCOMs, GPA is much more important than DAT (in general) because a high GPA is a better indicator an indivdiual's success on exam, etc -- If you work hard in undergrand, you'll probably work harrd and have success in grad school. On the other hand, if you do poorly in undergrand adn SUDDENLY do well on your DAT's, they might see you as a slacker who only "turned it on" for the big day. they don't like that very much. They'd prefer the person who proved themselves by working hard year round.

It's great to see (another) pre-dent on here claiming to have all the answers. What you've written is roughly as accurate and well researched as any other random chud who's posted in this thread.

For example, there are many schools that look at DAT primarily (not GPA), and I find it interesting that you think a high grade in a certain class can invalidate a low score in that area, whereas in my opinion it seems obvious that the opposite would be true. You say above that if you go to a no-name university and have a high GPA, you must have a high DAT to validate those grades, but somehow if you have a low QR score but have an 'A' in calc, they'll know that was an aberration? That's a blatant contradiction.

I can also tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that if your last point can't be further from the truth. I was an applicant exactly like you described and I was never treated or perceived in that way, and I was accepted into several "top" schools.

 

[ResidentPersian]

It's great to see (another) pre-dent on here claiming to have all the answers. What you've written is roughly as accurate and well researched as any other random chud who's posted in this thread.

For example, there are many schools that look at DAT primarily (not GPA), and I find it interesting that you think a high grade in a certain class can invalidate a low score in that area, whereas in my opinion it seems obvious that the opposite would be true. You say above that if you go to a no-name university and have a high GPA, you must have a high DAT to validate those grades, but somehow if you have a low QR score but have an 'A' in calc, they'll know that was an aberration? That's a blatant contradiction.

I can also tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that if your last point can't be further from the truth. I was an applicant exactly like you described and I was never treated or perceived in that way, and I was accepted into several "top" schools.

1) As I said in the beginning: THIS IS WHAT ONE ADCOM TOLD ME. I have a pretty close relationship with an ADCOM and this is what he told me is the case for his university. This may not be the case for every school, butit is for that particular school
2) I did not do any "research." This is what this particular person told me.
3) Good for you for getting into top schools.
4) Never said this was the case for every school and for eveyr situation. There are MANY factors that play into the admissions process.
5) I don't know what a "chud" is, but I'm assuming that you intended for that to be an insult -- insulting somebody from behind your keyboard is a mature way of arguing.