Why allopathic residency?

[Gpan]

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I am a noob when it comes to residency. Can some one please explain to me why a DO grad want to go into an allopathic residency instead of a osteopathic one? For example, there are allopathic surgery residency and oteopathic surgery residency. What is the difference, and is there any advantage/disadvantage to one or the other? Thanks🙂

PS: I have read all the other threads about allopathic residency, but none of them answers my questions.

 

[countthestars]

I am a noob when it comes to residency. Can some one please explain to me why a DO grad want to go into an allopathic residency instead of a osteopathic one? For example, there are allopathic surgery residency and oteopathic surgery residency. What is the difference, and is there any advantage/disadvantage to one or the other? Thanks🙂

PS: I have read all the other threads about allopathic residency, but none of them answers my questions.

Well, for anesthesiology, there are no oteopathic residency options, so DOs have to match to an allopathic one. Some other concerns are that its somewhat easier to get a fellowship if you go through allopathic residency compared to an oteopathic residency. Also some people just don't like how the AOA handles licensing and other administrator problems.

 

[nlax30]

Eh, lots of reasons. Location, perceived or actual status of the program, faculty, etc. I'm sure both worlds have their share of poor, fair, good, and better residences and some programs are just more well known than others.

When I get to that point location will probably be high up on my list, especially being married and having to take into account her career as well as moving around with any future kids.

 

[nlax30]

Well, for anesthesiology, there are no oteopathic residency options, so DOs have to match to an allopathic one. Some other concerns are that its somewhat easier to get a fellowship if you go through allopathic residency compared to an oteopathic residency. Also some people just don't like how the AOA handles licensing and other administrator problems.

Last I checked there were about a dozen DO anesth. programs.

 

[Chargers]

I wanna learn more about this too. So is it easier to find a job after you finish an allopathic residency rather than an osteopathic residency?

I would like to be able to practice in California as a general/ orthopedic surgeon. Should I aim for an allopathic residency or an osteopathic one?

and why do the grammar check feature on this website doesn't know the word allopathic, meanwhile it knows osteopathic?

 

[BobBarker]

There are about 25 DO anesthesia spots every year.

Allo ortho programs don't take DOs. Its not a rule, but is has been their modus operandi.

 

[countthestars]

Oh, my mistake on the Gas residencies. Outta all these match lists, I have basically only seen DOs match at MD gas spots...But thanks for correcting me.👍

 

[countthestars]

Allo ortho programs don't take DOs. Its not a rule, but is has been their modus operandi.

Also very hard, but not impossible, for a Do to get into Allo derm (but I've seen it done, I heard some rumors of a DO this year that got one)

 

[Chargers]

Also very hard, but not impossible, for a Do to get into Allo derm (but I've seen it done, I heard some rumors of a DO this year that got one)

I think I saw that in the match list of NYCOM or maybe PCOM

 

[bioteach]

As a MS-0 I have no idea what speciality I'll be going into or if I'll apply to both DO and MD residencies or not. However, LOCATION may be a big factor for me. My husband and I want to end up in the Pacific Northwest and there are few (if any) DO residencies in Washington and Oregon. So, MD might make more sense when the time comes.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I am a noob when it comes to residency. Can some one please explain to me why a DO grad want to go into an allopathic residency instead of a osteopathic one? For example, there are allopathic surgery residency and oteopathic surgery residency. What is the difference, and is there any advantage/disadvantage to one or the other? Thanks🙂

PS: I have read all the other threads about allopathic residency, but none of them answers my questions.

There are various reasons:

- the way the match is set up now, if you match into an osteo residency you are automatically dropped from the allo match (which is later). So if a student thinks an allo program is his #1 then he may only opt for allo match.

- Allo programs tend to be at large, research oriented, academic centers while many osteo programs are in small community hospitals. The difference in case load at large vs community centers and the difference in the cases you see can be drastic

- Perceived Superiority of Allo program. I am sure I am going to get flamed for this but many chose allo for this reason.

- Facility of getting a fellowship after residency

- better location of allopathic programs.

- better, and more well known faculty.

- more research

 

[DukeOfEarl]

Well, for anesthesiology, there are no oteopathic residency options, so DOs have to match to an allopathic one. Some other concerns are that its somewhat easier to get a fellowship if you go through allopathic residency compared to an oteopathic residency. Also some people just don't like how the AOA handles licensing and other administrator problems.

No, you're wrong. There are a few D.O. anesthesiology residencies. Take a look at the AOA opportunities page and put in anesthesiology. I know this because I am a D.O. and interviewed at several of these anesthesiology programs. I did not feel any of them were up to par with the 20 ACGME (AMA related, not M.D. as they accept both M.D. and D.O.) that I interviewed at. I ended doing an ACGME residency because the quality of both hospital and training was better overall. If you cannot get into an ACGME anesthesiology program (and its getting harder now than when I did it a few years ago) then an AOA D.O. anesthesiology route is better than not be a gas person at all, right? Location may also be a factor for some as it was for me (thats why I considered a D.O. one until I saw how inferior they are in training to an ACGME residency). Just my opinion. It's your life.

 

[Chargers]

There are various reasons:

- the way the match is set up now, if you match into an osteo residency you are automatically dropped from the allo match (which is later). So if a student thinks an allo program is his #1 then he may only opt for allo match.

- Allo programs tend to be at large, research oriented, academic centers while many osteo programs are in small community hospitals. The difference in case load at large vs community centers and the difference in the cases you see can be drastic

- Perceived Superiority of Allo program. I am sure I am going to get flamed for this but many chose allo for this reason.

- Facility of getting a fellowship after residency

- better location of allopathic programs.

- better, and more well known faculty.

- more research

Fellowship means a couple more years doing research, right? Why should a resident want to do fellowship? Is it a requirement? or just something to add to the resume?

 

[countthestars]

No, you're wrong. There are a few D.O. anesthesiology residencies. Take a look at the AOA opportunities page and put in anesthesiology. I know this because I am a D.O. and interviewed at several of these anesthesiology programs. I did not feel any of them were up to par with the 20 ACGME (AMA related, not M.D. as they accept both M.D. and D.O.) that I interviewed at. I ended doing an ACGME residency because the quality of both hospital and training was better overall. If you cannot get into an ACGME anesthesiology program (and its getting harder now than when I did it a few years ago) then an AOA D.O. anesthesiology route is better than not be a gas person at all, right? Location may also be a factor for some as it was for me (thats why I considered a D.O. one until I saw how inferior they are in training to an ACGME residency). Just my opinion. It's your life.

yep, a couple of people corrected me about that. Sigh, it really sucks that its getting harder these days to get into an ACGME anesthesiology program 👎. I've had my heart set in gas. Irregardless, that is just going to make me work harder and study more for the Boards. Even if getting harder...

 

[DukeOfEarl]

There are about 25 DO anesthesia spots every year.

Allo ortho programs don't take DOs. Its not a rule, but is has been their modus operandi.

Yes, I agree. Allopathic ACGME ortho programs have traditional hardly ever taken D.O.s . I have seen the data. There is like 1 every now and then that they take. If you are a D.O. and you want to do ortho, you will have to zero in on D.O. orthopedic programs unless you are exceptional, and you will HAVE to take the USMLE. Many of these are actually pretty good, and you will do some of your training at a larger hopital that is usually ACGME as well.

 

[DukeOfEarl]

There are various reasons:

- the way the match is set up now, if you match into an osteo residency you are automatically dropped from the allo match (which is later). So if a student thinks an allo program is his #1 then he may only opt for allo match.

- Allo programs tend to be at large, research oriented, academic centers while many osteo programs are in small community hospitals. The difference in case load at large vs community centers and the difference in the cases you see can be drastic

- Perceived Superiority of Allo program. I am sure I am going to get flamed for this but many chose allo for this reason.

- Facility of getting a fellowship after residency

- better location of allopathic programs.

- better, and more well known faculty.

- more research

I agree 100 percent with these statements.

 

[nlax30]

Fellowship means a couple more years doing research, right? Why should a resident want to do fellowship? Is it a requirement? or just something to add to the resume?

Not necessarily. A fellowship is also required to go into certain "sub-specialties". Ex: Cardiology -- would first do an Internal Med residency and then a Cardio fellowship.

 

[countthestars]

Fellowship means a couple more years doing research, right? Why should a resident want to do fellowship? Is it a requirement? or just something to add to the resume?

No, you do a fellowship if you want to specialize further. For example if you want to go into internal medicine, but you want to specialize into cardiology, you would have to do a fellowship after your residency. The same with gas. If you want to do pain management or cardiac anesthesiology for example, you would do a fellowship. The same holds for most other specialties.

 

[KateGia]

Fellowship means a couple more years doing research, right? Why should a resident want to do fellowship? Is it a requirement? or just something to add to the resume?

No... A fellowship is for specialties/subspecialties... For example, Cardio, GI, Pulmonary, etc are all fellowships you do after an Internal Med Residency.
Or if you wanted to do a special kind of surgery, you would do general surgery, then a fellowship in the specialty for some.. (ortho is it's own residency, and so are some others).

 

[countthestars]

I love how three of us answered the same question basically using the same example of Internal med --> Cardiology .🙂

 

[MossPoh]

Fellowship means a couple more years doing research, right? Why should a resident want to do fellowship? Is it a requirement? or just something to add to the resume?

Not at all. Sometimes, in order to GET the fellowship one might need research. You are essentially going through match over again in many cases. Examples of "fellowships" are GI, cardiology, interventional radiology, surgical oncology, plastic surgery (depending on route), hand surgery, sleep medicine, pain medicine...there are tons and tons of fellowships. They tend to vary in how competitive. The most competitive ones also tend to be the ones that result in the biggest income jump, surprise surprise.

Example. My dad is a radiologist. In the 60s he realized he didn't want to go into the hospital for 100 hours a week like the surgery guys, so he went into radiology. Which he hated at first. Once he was done with that, he decided he wanted more hands on stuff and clinical exposure, so he went into a cardiovascular radiology fellowship, which is essentially the precursor to interventional radiology. It was one year extra, and the result is that he was able to do more of the hands on stuff he craved. It also resulted in a bigger income, but slightly crappier hours. He got tired of getting woken up at 3 a.m. to drive into the hospital. Eventually he kind of toned down the procedures to fit his lifestyle. It really kind of allowed him some variety. He still did diagnostic radiology, but also got the little bit of clinical stuff. Now, something like cardiology is usually a bit different. You tend to be a cardiologist and a cardiologist with a little bit of cardiologist, you aren't going to do the fellowship and then stick with just internal medicine. I'm sure there are people that have, but the money is in just doing the cardiology.

We pick the cardiology example because it is the easiest one. If we used MSK as an example then people may be clueless!

 

[countthestars]

They tend to vary in how competitive. The most competitive ones also tend to be the ones that result in the biggest income jump, surprise surprise.

How true is that statement, and we thought the getting into a competitive program would end at residency. Sadly, it continues and continues on some more....👎

 

[DrMidlife]

There are about 25 DO anesthesia spots every year.

Allo ortho programs don't take DOs. Its not a rule, but is has been their modus operandi.

LECOM-B matched an orthopod in an allo program last week, according to the unofficial list: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6421171#post6421171

Also, nobody's talking about military residency, which is a 3rd track to the same eventual end. One of my mentors is a military DO otolaryngologist, and he's faculty at UWash. That's a pretty clean triple crown.

 

[DukeOfEarl]

I love how three of us answered the same question basically using the same example of Internal med --> Cardiology .🙂

Here's a different one then. You do Family Practice, but want to do non-surgical primary care Sports Medicine. So then you would do a Primary-Care Sports Medicine Fellowship.

 

[DukeOfEarl]

yep, a couple of people corrected me about that. Sigh, it really sucks that its getting harder these days to get into an ACGME anesthesiology program 👎. I've had my heart set in gas. Irregardless, that is just going to make me work harder and study more for the Boards. Even if getting harder...

yep, a couple of people corrected me about that. Sigh, it really sucks that its getting harder these days to get into an ACGME anesthesiology program 👎. I've had my heart set in gas. Irregardless, that is just going to make me work harder and study more for the Boards. Even if getting harder...

When I got into Gas, it was getting hard. But, they took my COMLEX scores at pretty much all of the programs. I didn't bother with the ones that didn't. NOW, you really need to take the USMLE in order to interview at a lot of the ACGME gas programs.
Choose your specialty wisely now. If you LIKE gas great, but don't convince yourself that you like it when you really only primarily like the money. Ultimately you must be happy with your specialty because you will probably do it for the rest of your life until you retire.

 

[Chargers]

So to get into a fellowship program, one has to be good during one's residency, plus one has to do some amount of research. I assume that people start doing research during their residency years, and not during med school years. So in essence, the 4 years in med school are just like elementary years. We still have middle school and high school years ahead. I love this.

Oh and gas = anesthesiology = LOL

 

[DukeOfEarl]

How true is that statement, and we thought the getting into a competitive program would end at residency. Sadly, it continues and continues on some more....👎

Yes, it never ends. But, overall, I would say getting a fellowship you want is much easier since many people are sick of training. But, of course that depends on what fellowship you're looking at. For instance Pain Management is hot right now because of the money and some people like myself really like it. Some of the IM fellowships are competitive, but many are not.

 

[DukeOfEarl]

So to get into a fellowship program, one has to be good during one's residency, plus one has to do some amount of research. I assume that people start doing research during their residency years, and not during med school years. So in essence, the 4 years in med school are just like elementary years. We still have middle school and high school years ahead. I love this.

Oh and gas = anesthesiology = LOL

You don't necesarily have to do research to get into some fellowships (except what is required of you by your residency to complete it of course).

 

[cuddlepuppy]

Wow, couple of misconceptions out there...

Here's my opinion from a DO who is currently in an ACGME (allopathic) orthopedic program.

There are a couple of reasons why people choose MD verus DO residencies:

- Location...there are few DO programs compared to MD programs, and some areas may not have a DO program in the specialty that one is looking for.

- Unfortunately, DO programs sometime lack in numbers/procedures, research, academics/conferences versus the more traditionally academic MD programs.

- Some think that MD programs have a better reputation than DO programs.

- Despite what we like to think, a lot of DO students did not get into an MD school. Therefore, they try to get into an MD residency to make up for not going to an MD medical school...not the majority, but believe me...that thought is prevelant.


Why did I choose MD versus DO? I wanted to go into academics/research, and most DO ortho programs were not strong on those.

I think the trend for DOs going into MD programs is increasing because:
a) there are more DO students graduating
b) stigma against DOs is going away with the retirement of the gray hairs
c) DO students are taking the chance of passing up the AOA match and trying for the ACGME (MD) match...as the DO match is earlier and the really qualified DO applicants get offered a sure spot at a DO program. You'd have to be crazy to give up a sure thing for a huge chance...but more people are confident in their application and "go for it".

And, we had almost a half a dozen student in my graduating class who matched MD anesthesia (Univ of Iowa, Univ of Minnesota, Rush, etc).

CP

 

[HrvatskiDoktor]

i think the whole residency matching is as personal as school selection. For every graduating DO this year, there were that many (if not more) reasons for why they wanted to go to whatever hospital they ranked 1st, 2nd, etc, let alone why they wanted to go MD or DO for residency.

Personally, I would love to go for a DO residency, however I also want to live in the Twin Cities, which would mean an MD residency. When it comes to my matching time, in four years, I'll have to decide which one is more important to me at that point/time in my life. That will, most likely, be the primary factor in which way I go!

 

[scdocusc]

I"m looking into allo residency mostly because I want to be in a geographical area where this are not many osteopathic residencies. I strongly believe that this is the major reason osteo students go into allopathic residencies.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

There are some really good osteopathic residency programs out there. I certainly won't turn one of them down because its osteopathic. I'll probably wait to make a decision on a residency program when I know a little about the programs, as we'll as things like what specialty I want to go into, and where I will be competitive.

I think its probably safe to say that none of us know **** about where we will be doing our residencies at this point.

 

[Miggs86]

There are some really good osteopathic residency programs out there. I certainly won't turn one of them down because its osteopathic. I'll probably wait to make a decision on a residency program when I know a little about the programs, as we'll as things like what specialty I want to go into, and where I will be competitive.

I think its probably safe to say that none of us know **** about where we will be doing our residencies at this point.

I was waiting for Texas to break it down. 👍

 

[Lamborghini1315]

I am a noob when it comes to residency. Can some one please explain to me why a DO grad want to go into an allopathic residency instead of a osteopathic one? For example, there are allopathic surgery residency and oteopathic surgery residency. What is the difference, and is there any advantage/disadvantage to one or the other? Thanks🙂

PS: I have read all the other threads about allopathic residency, but none of them answers my questions.

I will give you an honest factual answer..there are simply not enough osteopathic residency spots to fill all DO graduates. So do the math..you are forced to go into the allopathic match due to circumstances. Also location, type of residency play a big role in choosing the allopathic route. I am totally in favor of doing that because it would be self limiting your goals if you choose to be a pathologist and go to the osteopathic match, you will realize a harsh reality that you will have a hard time finding a pathology residency program. The point is residency is a big decision making time..choose a route with more options no brainer..

 

[UnderdogMD]

Anybody know why MD's aren't allowed to apply to DO residency spots? If an MD takes the COMLEX and USMLE why not?

 

[countthestars]

Anybody know why MD's aren't allowed to apply to DO residency spots? If an MD takes the COMLEX and USMLE why not?

Good question. Let me refer you to a recent thread about this topic: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=504770

that might answer some of your questions

 

[UnderdogMD]

Good question. Let me refer you to a recent thread about this topic: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=504770

that might answer some of your questions

Cool, thanks.

 

[scpod]

Here's a different one then. You do Family Practice, but want to do non-surgical primary care Sports Medicine. So then you would do a Primary-Care Sports Medicine Fellowship.

And 15.2% of those fellowship spots in the 2008 appointments went to DOs. So, it's not a bad way to get into sports medicine. There's also a pediatric sports medicine fellowship for pediatricians. Only 7 slots were available last year. 2 of the 6 that matched were DOs.

 

[JKM1]

According to the "Med school confidential" book, something like 97% of the MD students match into a residency spot and only about 3% don't, requiring that 3% to scramble to get into a spot. On the other hand, over 30% of the DO students don't match into a spot and have to scramble.

This stat really sucks and tells you what the MD residency programs think of the DO students. Or perhaps they just prefer MD students over the DO students.

 

[scpod]

This stat really sucks and tells you what the MD residency programs think of the DO students. Or perhaps they just prefer MD students over the DO students.

It isn't just about the degree. In the match that just happened this month:

94.2% of US MD current graduates matched
44.0% of previous US MD graduates matched
71.6% of DO graduates matched
62.2% of Canadian MD graduates matched
49.0% of 5th pathway MD graduates matched
51.9% of US citizens with international MDs matched
42.4% of foreign MD graduates matched

Overall, 7,266 MDs didn't match; 531 DOs didn't.

They'll all be scrambling for the 1300 available spots, but DOs have the advantage of being able to get the available DO slots as well.