Why Are Black Students Lagging?

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BME103

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By FELICIA R. LEE
From New York Times 12/02/02

The persistent academic gap between white and black students has touched off difficult and often ugly debates over the question why. Are racist stereotypes to blame? Substandard schools? Cultural attitudes?

This long-running argument may bubble up again next year with the arrival of a book that argues minority communities themselves contribute to student failure.

The book, "Black American Students in an Affluent Suburb: A Study of Academic Disengagement" (Lawrence Erlbaum Associates), is by John U. Ogbu, an anthropology professor at the University of California at Berkeley and a well-known figure in the field of student achievement for more than three decades. Indeed, it was Mr. Ogbu's research that popularized the phrase "acting white" in the mid-1980's to help explain why black students might disdain behaviors associated with high achievement, like speaking standard grammatical English.

Now Mr. Ogbu is back, arguing with renewed fervor that his most recent research shows that African-Americans' own cultural attitudes are a serious problem that is too often neglected.

"No matter how you reform schools, it's not going to solve the problem," he said in an interview. "There are two parts of the problem, society and schools on one hand and the black community on the other hand."

Professor Ogbu's latest conclusions are highlighted in a study of blacks in Shaker Heights, Ohio, an affluent Cleveland suburb whose school district is equally divided between blacks and whites. As in many racially integrated school districts, the black students have lagged behind whites in grade-point averages, test scores and placement in high-level classes. Professor Ogbu was invited by black parents in 1997 to examine the district's 5,000 students to figure out why.

"What amazed me is that these kids who come from homes of doctors and lawyers are not thinking like their parents; they don't know how their parents made it," Professor Ogbu said in an interview. "They are looking at rappers in ghettos as their role models, they are looking at entertainers. The parents work two jobs, three jobs, to give their children everything, but they are not guiding their children."

For example, he said that middle-class black parents in general spent no more time on homework or tracking their children's schooling than poor white parents. And he said that while black students talked in detail about what efforts were needed to get an A and about their desire to achieve, too many nonetheless failed to put forth that effort.

Those kinds of attitudes reflect a long history of adapting to oppression and stymied opportunities, said Professor Ogbu, a Nigerian immigrant who has written that involuntary black immigrants behave like low-status minorities in other societies.

Not surprisingly, he said, the parents were disappointed when he turned the spotlight on them as well as the schools. Peggy Caldwell, a spokeswoman for the Shaker Heights City School District, said that minority families cared deeply about their children's academic achievement and the district was working with education experts to reduce the racial achievement gap. She noted that while Professor Ogbu called most of the black families in the district middle class, 10 to 12 percent live in poverty.

Also not surprisingly, many researchers take issue with some of Professor Ogbu's latest findings.

"When we asked if friends made fun of kids who do well in school, we don't find any racial difference in that," said Ronald F. Ferguson, a senior research associate at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard who analyzed a new study of 40,000 middle and high school students in 15 middle class school districts, including Shaker Heights.

Indeed, the study, which was administered by the Minority Student Achievement Network, an organization that explores ways to close the racial achievement gap, found that African-American and Latino students work as hard and care as much about school as white and Asian students do.

Mr. Ferguson said that while minorities lag behind whites in things like homework completion, it is wrong to infer that they aren't interested in school. "High achievers are more often accused of acting white than low achievers, but it's because the low achievers suspect the high achievers believe they are superior."

"It's things like talking too properly when you're in informal social settings," he continued. "It's hanging around white friends and acting like you don't want to be with your black friends. It's really about behavior patterns and not achievement."

Mr. Ferguson speculated that what Professor Ogbu saw was a clumsy attempt by black students to search for a comfortable racial identity. "What does it mean to be black?" he said. "What does it mean to be white? The community needs to help kids make sense of their own identity."

"I would agree with Ogbu that there are youth cultural patterns and behaviors that are counterproductive for academic success," he went on, mentioning socializing in class and spending too much time watching television. "But when they engage in those behaviors, they are not purposely avoiding academic success."

Other researchers have zeroed in on other culprits, whether inferior schools, lower teacher expectations, impoverished family backgrounds or some combination.

Theories of black intellectual inferiority, too, have popped up from the 1781 publication of Thomas Jefferson's "Notes on the State of Virginia" to "The Bell Curve" in 1994 and beyond. Given that sensitivity and the implications for policies like school desegregation and affirmative action, virtually every aspect of the academic gap has been examined.

Where Professor Ogbu found that some middle class blacks were clueless about their children's academic life, for example, Roslyn Arlin Mickelson, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina, instead concluded that such parents were often excluded from the informal networks that white parents use for information about courses, gifted programs and testing. "I believe, based on my own research, that the center of gravity lies with the school system," she said.

Claude Steele, a Stanford University psychologist, meanwhile, has hypothesized that black students are responding to the fear of confirming lowered expectations.

And Walter R. Allen, a professor of sociology at the University of California at Los Angeles, said that even when racial minorities and whites attended the same schools, they could have radically different experiences because of tracking and teacher expectations.

Professor Allen is conducting a long-term project on college access for African-American and Latino high school students in California. In his view, black students sometimes underperform because of subtle exchanges with teachers who convey the message that they find the students inferior or frightening. And, he said, minority schools still overwhelmingly lack good teachers and adequate teaching tools.

He also pointed out that comparing the income level of black and white families, as Professor Ogbu did with his Midwestern subjects, can be misleading. Black incomes might be derived from two-career families juggling several jobs compared with a single breadwinner in white households.

Professor Ogbu is no stranger to controversy. His theory of "acting white" has been the subject of intense study since he first wrote about it in the mid-80's with Signithia Fordham, then a graduate student and now a professor of anthropology at the University of Rochester. They studied an inner-city Washington high school where students listed doing well in school among the "white" behaviors they rejected, like visiting the Smithsonian and dancing to lyrics rather than a beat.

The two anthropologists theorized that a long history of discrimination helped foster what is known in sociological lingo as an oppositional peer culture. Not only were students resisting the notion that white behavior was superior to their own, but they also saw no connection between good grades and finding a job.

Many scholars who have disputed those findings rely on a continuing survey of about 17,000 nationally representative students, which is conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics, an arm of the federal government. This self-reported survey shows that black students actually have more favorable attitudes than whites toward education, hard work and effort.

But that has by no means settled the debate. In the February issue of the American Sociological Review, for example, scholars who tackled the subject came to opposite conclusions. One article (by three scholars) said that the government data were not reliable because there was often a gap between what students say and what they do; another article by two others said they found that high-achieving black students were especially popular among their peers.

"It's difficult to determine what's going on," said Vincent J. Roscigno, a professor of sociology at Ohio State University who has studied racial differences in achievement. "`I'm sort of split on Ogbu. It's hard to compare a case analysis to a nationally representative statistical analysis. I do have a hunch that rural white poor kids are doing the same thing as poor black kids. I'm tentative about saying it's race-based."

Indeed, Professor Mickelson of the University of North Carolina found that working class whites as well as middle-class blacks were more apt to believe that doing well in school compromised their identity.

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All these years later, Professor Fordham said, she fears that the acting-white idea has been distorted into blaming the victim. She said she wanted to advance the debate by looking at how race itself was a social fiction, rooted not just in skin color but also in behaviors and social status.

"Black kids don't get validation and are seen as trespassing when they exceed academic expectations," Professor Fordham said, echoing her initial research. "The kids turn on it, they sacrifice their spots in gifted and talented classes to belong to a group where they feel good."

http://www.magnetech231.com/featurearticle.htm
 
why is this [well-written and interesting] article on this board?
 
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Originally posted by Raptor
There are a lot of elemetary, middle, and high school teachers that expect little from URM students.
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I'm dealing with this RIGHT NOW despite living in one of the most affluent areas in the DC metro area. I have to constantly push my daughters's teacher into encouraging my daughter toward's excellence despite the fact that my daughter has the benefit of having a Mom that's a scientist and a Dad that's an engineer. Now imagine if i weren't educated and aware enough or for that matter, suppose i worked at McDonalds' and couldn't afford to take the time to make sure my child's teacher was doing the right thing. If a white teachers would pull this **** on educated parents, imagine what UNeducated parents must go through.

Enough for me, my daughter's going to private school after this year as I've completely given up on the public school system BUT I have the resources to do this, what about the thousands of parents that don't have this luxury?


__________________
 
Originally posted by Raptor
There are a lot of elemetary, middle, and high school teachers that expect little from URM students.

"The overwhelming majority of students going into teaching professions are white or female. White students are more than 5 times as likely to pursue teaching than are black students; women 5 times more than men.

The good news is that the percentage of new teachers hired this year who were black increased. Unfortunately, these numbers are exceeded by those of blacks leaving the field. Retaining black teachers has been dismal, with an attrition rate greater than 5%."


So, tell me, why is it that blacks are busy running off "chasing the bucks" instead of going into noble careers like teaching? You know, where they have to deal with pissy, ignorant parents that don't have any idea what it's like teaching at a public school where there are huge discrepancies in students work-willingness and pre-educational levels, and for your troubles you are far under-paid and overworked, locked in a systemic bureaucracy that is only interested in getting the kids diplomas whether or not they can read or write.

Why doesn't she get her kid enrolled in some kind of "gifted" program. If the kid *is* gifted, that is, which I highly doubt from reading the post from whom she sprang from. Better yet, why doesn't she go ahead and serve her black community and become a teacher if she thinks it is so easy? Her kid deserves "special" attention, right? Of course, just like the 700 disrespectful brats the teacher has to teach(*boggle* Can you say ignorant?).
 
Originally posted by Ernham
[BSo, tell me, why is it that blacks are busy running off "chasing the bucks" instead of going into noble careers like teaching?
Better yet, why doesn't she go ahead and serve her black community and become a teacher if she thinks it is so easy?[/B]

quote:
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Originally posted by BME103
said Rodriguez, "you would start at...ybody, [B] It's gettin' hot in herre.....[/B]
 
Originally posted by pathdr2b
I know it would be a complete waste of my time to argure with a flaming racist like yourself ( that comment of yours about Jews in the allopathic forum was beyond ignorant) but I know it would be a waste of my time. You're IGNORANT probably the worst racist I've seen on SDN, there's no doubt about that based on your flaming posts. The least you could do is have the balls to acknowledge it. Opps, I'm sorry I'd probably need a microscope and tweezers to notice yours anyway!!!




The key to knowing when you've really won an argument is when your opponent has to resort to claims of racism and stops trying to address you in a logical, coherent fashion
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
The key to knowing when you've really won an argument is when your opponent has to resort to claims of racism and stops trying to address you in a logical, coherent fashion

Is that you god? I'm still waiting on my lottery numbers !!!:laugh:
 
"I know it would be a complete waste of my time to argure with a flaming racist like yourself ( that comment of yours about Jews in the allopathic forum was beyond ignorant) but I know it would be a waste of my time."

1. You might want to check the last name of a particular individual at Harvard as to where that came from.

2. Your post could have been much more succinct and to the point by simply stating "Wah!"


"You're IGNORANT probably the worst racist I've seen on SDN, there's no doubt about that based on your flaming posts. The least you could do is have the balls to acknowledge it. Opps, I'm sorry I'd probably need a microscope and tweezers to notice yours anyway!!!"

Ok, an addendum. "Wah! You're a stupid booboo head!"
 
Originally posted by pathdr2b
[BCommon everybody, It's gettin' hot in herre..... [/B]

"It's gettin' hot in herre, so take..........."
 
Originally posted by Ernham
[B1. You might want to check the last name of particular individual at Harvard as to where that came from.
Ok, an addendum. "Wah! You're a stupid booboo head!" [/B]

Opps, my bad. All you flaming racists post alike !:laugh: :laugh:
 
Originally posted by pathdr2b
Is that you god? I'm still waiting on my lottery numbers !!!:laugh:

I rest my case. thank you for proving my point
 
PathDr,

You seem to have this bent that black students would be inspired and better motivated if they had a black face teaching them - because it would teach them that they too can succeed and make a difference. Now I ask you, how is that any different than segregation?

You say your future patients will want a black doctor caring for them, because it will make them feel better and probably put them at ease from an interpersonal standpoint. I feel like you see color WAY more than I do. Will you be nicer to your black patients because they are "your people"? I sure hope not. Its fine for minorities to have social bonds in a collegial way. But it is NOT FINE for a doctor to participate in those types of manners. My primary care doc is a black guy, he's a genius and a great doc....but he treats me the same as he treats his black patients, and thats why I like him. There are no "what up bros" or "what up homies" or anythign like that. He sees no color, either should you.
 
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Originally posted by TexasGuy41
You say your future patients will want a black doctor caring for them, because it will make them feel better and probably put them at ease from an interpersonal standpoint.

While this may be true for some african american patients, I think you have misquoted me because I never said this. As a matter of fact I have a white male Gyn, and Asian endocrinologist, and an Indian Internist.

I don't care about the race of my future patients because I'm going into pathology (Get it, Pathdr2b?). Dead people don't care about too much !!!
 
Originally posted by TexasGuy41
PathDr,

You seem to have this bent that black students would be inspired and better motivated if they had a black face teaching them - because it would teach them that they too can succeed and make a difference. Now I ask you, how is that any different than segregation?
--------------------------

Segregation or not... i'm going to have agree with PathDr. on this point. it's not that all black students will only be motivated or inspired by black teachers. Or even that all people of color respond or "connect" better to a doctor of their own race.

It's just as simple as this: you see someone (of any race) succeeding at anything and you admire it. when that particular person looks like you, it generates an element of pride in oneself (or at least this is how it works for me) and belief that possibilities are truly endless. it's not about drawing distinct color lines everywhere. it's just about being honest... people may feel uncomfortable about stuff like this because they automatically start throwing around terms like "segregation" and "reverse discrimination" but facts are facts.

for example:
i am not black, but i idenitfy as a person of color. i go to my GYN because she's qualified, very well-spoken, and makes me feel comfortable. the fact that she is black is added benefits--she makes me feel good (and proud) that women of color are breaking thru glass ceilings and succeeding in a once-male dominated (and in some specialities, still) field.

it sounds kind of cheesy but that's my truth.
 
I think Ernham is just pissed he won't as much time to play Magic: The Gathering in medical school. :laugh: I grew out of that when I was 15, but to each its own.

For me, AA is wrong and un-"American" whatever that means nowadays. It is really all about self-interest. If you could have an extra boost to your application, you would take it. 99% of us would. Big deal. I could have had the deck stacked against me as much as anyone else in terms of the admissions process, but I got in because I had proper credentials. I would agree with Ernham's "disadvantaged" rant and yes, many Blacks like to turn their back on the ghetto. I don't blame them, it does seem very hopeless. I have faith that the next 50 years will see that change.

I got my twelve side die
I got the Dungeon Master's guide
I got Kitty Pryde
Waiting there for me, yes I do.

In the garage, where I belong
No one hears me sing my song.

-Weezer
 
I thought I was the one with the Jewish comment??

And you went and filed a complaint with SDN over me saying
"Is that a Jewish school?"

What a whiny baby.

Pull the racism card whenever you can. I bet you're real good at it by now.

Hwo about you try to help these forums instead of pulling your racism card every time someone says anything you don't like.

That is all.
 
Originally posted by klinzou
I thought I was the one with the Jewish comment??
And you went and filed a complaint with SDN over me saying
"Is that a Jewish school?"
What a whiny baby.

So I guess you're a psychic? I DID NOT file the complaint to SDN about your Jewish comment, I filed a complaint about your dic comment. Let's keep the facts straight. You should have your as* banned from SDN for making both comments.
 
Are you talking to me, Klinzou. I never referred you to anyone in case you ARE referring to me, nor do I consider myself whining about anything in that post. Not to say I have never whined before. Wah!
 
I was referring to pathdr.
My dic comment???? I don't recall what you're talking about. What did I say??
 
Originally posted by pathdr2b
I'm dealing with this RIGHT NOW despite living in one of the most affluent areas in the DC metro area. I have to constantly push my daughters's teacher into encouraging my daughter toward's excellence despite the fact that my daughter has the benefit of having a Mom that's a scientist and a Dad that's an engineer.

It is your responsibility to push your daughter, not the teacher's. I am a product of montgomery county, md schools, and I was never personally "pushed towards excellence" by teachers. My parents expected me to do well and rewarded me when I did. There is only so much a teacher can do with his or her 6 hours with the 30 or so children.
 
http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/06/04/teachers.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Committed but dispirited, most teachers say they are unfairly blamed for school shortcomings, undermined by parents and distrustful of their bosses.

More than three in four teachers surveyed said they were "scapegoats for all the problems facing education," according to a study by Public Agenda, a nonpartisan policy research group that has tracked teacher opinions.

Wary of political favoritism and unfair claims by parents, teachers bank heavily on union support and on tenure policies that promise job security, the survey says. Such reliance comes even as teachers acknowledge flaws in the system: only 14 percent said it was easy for their district to remove bad teachers, and 78 percent said their schools had at least a few.

Even as they feel like the targets of reformers, teachers also show some willingness to embrace change, such as paying higher salaries to those who put in more effort. New teachers, in particular, show support for options such as charter schools and alternative teacher certifications.

"Their openness is quite stunning, given the fact that they feel unsupported -- not only by administrators, whom they believe they should be able to depend on, but also by parents, who they believe are missing in action," said Deborah Wadsworth, president of Public Agenda.

Teachers' views ought to matter to a lot of people, Wadsworth said. Parents link their children's success to teaching quality, and all states are under federal mandate to have highly qualified teachers in every core academic course by 2005-06.

The study, "Stand by Me," covers testing, job performance and other crucial professional issues. Public Agenda surveyed 1,345 teachers after hearing from focus groups and experts.

Teacher frustration
The theme of frustration is no surprise, said Kathleen Lyons, spokeswoman for the National Education Association, which represents 2.7 million teachers and other school workers. Beyond drastic state budget cuts, teachers are squeezed by a federal law that puts more emphasis on punishing poor-performing schools than providing help, Lyons contended.

"Teachers see time taken away to practice tests, to do the drill-and-kill exercises that suck the life out of learning. ... It's just not a happy time in public schools," she said.

Education reformers, however, say President Bush and Congress have appropriately demanded more of schools and provided choice for families.

"There is kind of a woe-is-me aspect to teachers when asked what they think of their lot in life, and a lot of that seeps through the data," said Chester Finn Jr., president of the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation, one of four organizations that financed the study. "I wonder if that isn't fed by their unions and a part of the culture of the profession, which is philosophically opposed to a lot of the reforms under way today."

More than eight in 10 teachers agreed that without a union, they would be vulnerable to abuse of power by school administrators. The same number said their working conditions and salaries would be much worse without collective bargaining.

Teachers also defended the protection of tenure but said it could be a ticket to complacency. Most surveyed said they work in districts that offer tenure, which offers job security after three to four years barring dismissal for just cause. Still, almost six in 10 teachers said tenure was no guarantee that teachers had proved themselves on the job.

Lyons, the NEA spokeswoman, said the union supports faster discipline reviews so that incompetent teachers will be removed and those unfairly charged will have their names cleared.

On the salary front, teachers typically are paid based on years of experience and level of education. More than 60 percent said they would support paying more to those who work in tough neighborhoods or who consistently get great job evaluations.

New teachers were most supportive of such ideas. That should open the door to fresh ideas, Finn said, such as allowing teachers to volunteer for performance-based pay scales.

The NEA says it backs such ideas as extra pay for extra work but opposes "merit pay." In the survey, 63 percent said merit pay would lead to "unhealthy competition and jealousy."

"To say someone who gets a great evaluation gets more money, teachers know what that translates into: whoever is on the good side of the principal," Lyons said.
 
Originally posted by kcrd
It is your responsibility to push your daughter, not the teacher's. I am a product of montgomery county, md schools, and I was never personally "pushed towards excellence" by teachers. My parents expected me to do well and rewarded me when I did. There is only so much a teacher can do with his or her 6 hours with the 30 or so children.

As a former teacher it is the repsonsibility of the teacher to push ALL of his/her students not a selected few. My daughter is in the montgomery county school system and not one of my personal friends with children in this system are happy with it and my friends are Indian, Korean, and White. She may well have been better off in PG County.

And to BME, I know a few private school teachers (Formally of the public school system) that have never had any complaints like the ones you listed. I wonder why? Duh.................... Obviously you have never been a teacher
 
I'm just saying that if your daughter is having difficulty for some reason, you need to look to yourselves first. If she is lagging behind, the problem is multifactorial. One factor is the teacher, but that is not the only one. Most of the issues that she is dealing with can be handled by her parents. It is all too easy to blame someone else for your problems. Obviously I don't know anything about your situation, but your posts sound so angry! Sometimes if you just stop thinking everyone is against you, the problem will be solved, because the majority of the time, people are not out to get you. You are right that there are racists out there who will be judging your daughter because of the color of her skin, but why don't you give your daughter's teacher the benefit of doubt?
 
Originally posted by kcrd
I'm just saying that if your daughter is having difficulty for some reason, you need to look to yourselves first. If she is lagging behind, the problem is multifactorial. One factor is the teacher, but that is not the only one. Most of the issues that she is dealing with can be handled by her parents. It is all too easy to blame someone else for your problems. Obviously I don't know anything about your situation, but your posts sound so angry! Sometimes if you just stop thinking everyone is against you, the problem will be solved, because the majority of the time, people are not out to get you. You are right that there are racists out there who will be judging your daughter because of the color of her skin, but why don't you give your daughter's teacher the benefit of doubt?

My daughter's on the Honorr Roll at her school but it's funny that you assume that she must be struggling. I'm angry because I'm a former teacher, I've observed hers for 2 years now, and I'm not impressed. It's off to private school for my daughter where I'll pay for the priviledge of her teachers giving a dam.

And why should I give her teacher the benefit of the doubt after observing her on numerous ooccasions? No one ever gave it to me nor do I expect them too!
 
Originally posted by pathdr2b
My daughter's on the Honorr Roll at her school but it's funny that you assume that she must be struggling.

Give me a break. It was you who said that you need to keep on your teacher's back to "push your daughter to excellence." And it was you who used the word "stuggling" here, not me! I asked you if she was having "difficulties" or was "lagging behind" because you yourself seem to think your daughter isn't acheiving "excellence." Pathdr, you have a perception problem, and if you think that what I'm saying has racist undertones, then you need your head fixed.

Don't bother to respond. I'm finished with this annoying thread.
 
Originally posted by kcrd
Give me a break. Pathdr, you have a perception problem, and if you think that what I'm saying has racist undertones, then you need your head fixed.
Don't bother to respond. I'm finished with this annoying thread.

I don't realy give a dam about what your thoughts are but why have you playued the race card? Your post doesn't have racist undertones it has a tone that says" I'm young and unexpereinced to the life expereinces of others."

Get a few more birthdays and some life expereince then get back to me.;)
 
Originally posted by kcrd
Give me a break. Pathdr, you have a perception problem, and if you think that what I'm saying has racist undertones, then you need your head fixed.
Don't bother to respond. I'm finished with this annoying thread.

I don't realy give a dam about what your thoughts are but why have you playud the race card? Your post doesn't have racist undertones it has a tone that says" I'm young and unexpereinced to the life expereinces of others."

Get a few more birthdays and some life expereince then get back to me.;)
 
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