Why are some schools "stat-******"? Is there really any difference between the academic ability of a 518 vs. 525, etc?

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I see all the time that schools like NYU, UPenn, JHU, UVA, etc are labeled as "stat-******" on Reddit and SDN (basically schools with 522 average MCATs).

Is there a particular reason why these schools obsess over stats so much? I'm entirely unconvinced that a 525 MCAT scorer is that much smarter than someone who scored a 518 or 517 or something, I've heard from some admissions officers in interviews that anyone over 512 on MCAT with a decent GPA will perform fine in medical school.

If that's true, then why do schools still obsess over high MCATs if there's no real difference once you start getting higher in score? If someone has shown they can handle medical school curricula, why not just check off that statistical box and then move onto arguably more important factors, like their life experience?

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If that's true, then why do schools still obsess over high MCATs if there's no real difference once you start getting higher in score?
They do it because they can. They get enough high quality applicants with great stats that they can "stat-wh0re" in addition to getting everything else they want. Given the numerical dynamics of applying to med school, it's no longer fully about just being good enough to do well. Its about proving you are some way more qualified than the literal thousands of others vying for your potential seat.

Even putting yourself in that position, say you had a choice between two great candidates with great stories and great ECs, but one had a 512 and one had a 522, who would you choose?

Also just anecdotally there's no way everyone starts being "equally good" after a 512. Schools want exceptional candidates not just people who "can pass". Everyone who I've known to score 520+ has been an academic superstar, and they generally outperform the 512ish scorers in almost every academic metric, and make no mistake, academics and standardized test taking is a huge part of training to be a doctor.
 
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Those kids don’t just have high MCAT scores. But I do agree that MCAT scores at that range are very volatile because a just 2-3 questions across the entire exam can be the difference between a 518 and 522.

Medical school admissions in general is mostly a game that you have to play. The MCAT is pretty easy to game if you learn the tricks they use. You can pay hundreds to thousands to be coached on application and essay writing and learn how to interview like a normal person. If you have a physician parent, you automatically have access to doctors whom you can shadow. If your cousin or sibling is a med student or resident, you can easily get yourself published as a 2nd/3rd/4th author on several papers. At the end of the day it’s just a game.

Residency admissions are much more merit based. You CANNOT game the USMLE the way you can game the MCAT. USMLE is one of the most in-depth and complicated exams in the country. You can’t just take a week long course and ace it. Getting into competitive residency programs takes a lot of time and effort - and nepotism won’t necessarily take you very far. With that being said, it still does exist at this stage.
 
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I also want to point out that there is some weak correlation between MCAT scores and USMLE. But I would argue that is correlation not causation. Students with high MCAT scores go to higher tier med schools and don’t have to deal with certain stressors that those of us at lower tier med schools have to deal with. For example, as a DO student I have to deal with the struggle of 1) getting audition rotations 2) working twice as hard to get research opportunities 3) handling an OMM curriculum and 4) taking dual board exams. Obviously MD students don’t have to deal with the last two, but many also don’t have to deal with the first two either. Having to deal with extra stressors could very well explain this as well. I’m not complaining - just stating facts.

And yes, I know that I chose to go to a DO school and that I “probably should have worked harder” to go to an MD school. That’s not the point.
 
Everyone who I've known to score 520+ has been an academic superstar, and they generally outperform the 512ish scorers in almost every academic metric, and make no mistake, academics and standardized test taking is a huge part of training to be a doctor.
Not really saying a whole lot here lol, people who are good at test taking (whether due to resources or just figuring it out) tend to be good at taking other tests. There's a much broader question about what it means when it comes to being a physician. After Step 2, board scores don't matter as long as you pass.

My theory is that medical schools have an obsession with MCAT score mainly because it has been a major part of USNWR ranking metrics for decades. As USNWR continues to die off, I suspect we'll see MCAT medians and means decrease some. You can find lots of ways to distinguish between applicants. MCAT is one way, but doesn't mean it's a good way.
 
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I see all the time that schools like NYU, UPenn, JHU, UVA, etc are labeled as "stat-******" on Reddit and SDN (basically schools with 522 average MCATs).

Is there a particular reason why these schools obsess over stats so much? I'm entirely unconvinced that a 525 MCAT scorer is that much smarter than someone who scored a 518 or 517 or something, I've heard from some admissions officers in interviews that anyone over 512 on MCAT with a decent GPA will perform fine in medical school.

If that's true, then why do schools still obsess over high MCATs if there's no real difference once you start getting higher in score? If someone has shown they can handle medical school curricula, why not just check off that statistical box and then move onto arguably more important factors, like their life experience?
I agree that a 525 student is not smarter than a 518 student, and that both are equally likely to become excellent doctors. However, at the most competitive schools, there are a very limited number of spots for a large pool of very qualified applicants, so these schools can be particularly picky on who they interview and accept.

The students being accepted to the places you mentioned typically have both excellent stats, excellent LORs, and compelling life experiences/ECs, so stats are not necessarily being selected at the expense of other factors like life experiences, etc. Just my thoughts.
 
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The students being accepted to the places you mentioned typically have both excellent stats, excellent LORs, and compelling life experiences/ECs, so stats are not necessarily being selected at the expense of other factors like life experiences, etc. Just my thoughts.
Yeah, but it does feel like they are prioritized over other things. One of the admins at my school basically said your app isn't really getting considered unless you're at least above a certain MCAT score.

So I'm sure there are people right below that score who are incredible in all other areas but never get considered for interview, and other people significantly above that score but are comparatively weak in other areas. The MCAT is never the only factor, but it does receive disproportionate weight that I don't personally feel is deserved.
 
If that's true, then why do schools still obsess over high MCATs if there's no real difference once you start getting higher in score?
There are a lot of potential reasons.

Admissions committees are composed of humans, and humans are very comforted by clean, simple, unambiguous numeric rating systems.

The pro-MCAT faction of a given admissions committee may be relatively large and powerful.

If you have a pile of applications with interchangeable GPAs, ECs, LORs, and PSs, it doesn't make much sense to choose the ones with lower MCAT scores.

The average MCAT of matriculating students is a component of the USNWR ranking methodology.

Deans like to brag about such things. A high average MCAT suggests the school is attracting academically talented students, which makes stakeholders happy.
 
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Those kids don’t just have high MCAT scores. But I do agree that MCAT scores at that range are very volatile because a just 2-3 questions across the entire exam can be the difference between a 518 and 522.

Medical school admissions in general is mostly a game that you have to play. The MCAT is pretty easy to game if you learn the tricks they use. You can pay hundreds to thousands to be coached on application and essay writing and learn how to interview like a normal person. If you have a physician parent, you automatically have access to doctors whom you can shadow. If your cousin or sibling is a med student or resident, you can easily get yourself published as a 2nd/3rd/4th author on several papers. At the end of the day it’s just a game.

Residency admissions are much more merit based. You CANNOT game the USMLE the way you can game the MCAT. USMLE is one of the most in-depth and complicated exams in the country. You can’t just take a week long course and ace it. Getting into competitive residency programs takes a lot of time and effort - and nepotism won’t necessarily take you very far. With that being said, it still does exist at this stage.
To be fair, 99% of people cannot just take a week-long MCAT prep course and ace it. Most people take 3+ months to study for it to get a good score. To do well on the MCAT requires hundreds, if not thousands, of preparation hours.
 
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Is there really any difference between the academic ability of a 518 vs. 525, etc?​


100m race winners and runners up are decided by 0.01 sec. Yes, there are no difference in ability between the winner and others in terms of ability, but you have to be fair to everyone in deciding who is the winner. You don’t set a minimum threshold and decide the winner by life experiences.

Anyone can get 1000s of hours of shadowing, volunteering etc. But only 2% can score above 520 in mcat . As a society, we have to move away from selecting those who can pass/ handle the curriculum but pick those who are willing to put in the work and excel.

We also have to stop insinuating that those with top stats somehow don’t have other qualifications/attributes like writing ability, shadowing, research, volunteering and passion to help others etc. It is offensive. We have to treat them with more respect.

No one can take one week training and score high on mcat. You need innate ability, work ethics, determination and perseverance to score high on mcat. There is no magic training/coaching there that will give you 520+ without those attributes. If you have those attributes, you don’t need any coaching, just Kaplan books, Khan Academy/UWorld and AAMC materials are more than enough. There are thousands of proof on mcat Reddit.
 
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Is there really any difference between the academic ability of a 518 vs. 525, etc?​


100m race winners and runners up are decided by 0.01 sec. Yes, there are no difference in ability between the winner and others in terms of ability, but you have to be fair to everyone in deciding who is the winner. You don’t set a minimum threshold and decide the winner by life experiences.

Anyone can get 1000s of hours of shadowing, volunteering etc. But only 2% can score above 520 in mcat . As a society, we have to move away from selecting those who can pass/ handle the curriculum but pick those who are willing to put in the work and excel.

We also have to stop insinuating that those with top stats somehow don’t have other qualifications/attributes like writing ability, shadowing, research, volunteering and passion to help others etc. It is offensive. We have to treat them with more respect.

No one can take one week training and score high on mcat. You need innate ability, work ethics, determination and perseverance to score high on mcat. There is no magic training/coaching there that will give you 520+ without those attributes. If you have those attributes, you don’t need any coaching, just Kaplan books, Khan Academy/UWorld and AAMC materials are more than enough. There are thousands of proof on mcat Reddit.
That makes sense, totally fair!
 
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MCAT*STEP1.png


MCAT*STEP2.png

As you can see, 525 scorers on average do better than 518 scorers on both step 1 and 2, and the improvement is pretty linear. If 525 is not smarter (in a medically relevant sense) than 518, we would expect the line to plateau, but it does not. Source: MCAT® Validity Research
 
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View attachment 370489

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As you can see, 525 scorers on average do better than 518 scorers on both step 1 and 2, and the improvement is pretty linear. If 525 is not smarter (in a medically relevant sense) than 518, we would expect the line to plateau, but it does not. Source: MCAT® Validity Research
Hmm, thanks for this, but as a follow-up, do you think this trend holds true in this era? The folks from this study are now 7 years out of medical school and expectations have changed pretty dramatically since then. Additionally, the confidence bands all overlap really heavily in both Step 1 and 2, which makes me doubt how significant these findings are.

The way I see it, sure, there is a moderate correlation of increased Step score with MCAT which is to be expected, but it doesn't seem as if that increase is that meaningful if that makes any sense. I'm more convinced by the explanation that top top schools just choose high MCATs because they have that luxury, not because theres any meaningful difference between a 525 and a 518-520 scorer.
 
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As you can see, 525 scorers on average do better than 518 scorers on both step 1 and 2, and the improvement is pretty linear. If 525 is not smarter (in a medically relevant sense) than 518, we would expect the line to plateau, but it does not.
These standardized tests measure knowledge, preparation, and test-taking abilities together rather than raw intelligence or scientific acumen. At the extremes, those who score 525 (top 1%) on their MCAT are likely just much better/prepared test takers (rather than having a significantly more expansive knowledge base) than those who scored 518 (top 5%). Similarly, those with Step I scores (pre-P/F) of 270 (top 1%) are not better doctors (or smarter "in a medically relevant sense") than those who scored 260 (top 5%). No one could have scored 260 on Step I (pre-P/F) without having had a complete mastery of the material. All data needs to be interpreted cautiously to prevent reaching potentially incorrect conclusions.

And even if these tests purely measured one's knowledge, being knowledgeable does not necessarily mean one is intelligent ("smarter"). Ditto for education. There are many doctors (all of whom are highly educated and knowledgeable) who are actually quite stupid in reality. Just my thoughts.
 
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As you can see, 525 scorers on average do better than 518 scorers on both step 1 and 2, and the improvement is pretty linear. If 525 is not smarter (in a medically relevant sense) than 518, we would expect the line to plateau, but it does not. Source: MCAT® Validity Research
Say if I have a hypothetical medical school with an average MCAT of 524. Eyeballing that graph gives me a predicted Step 2 average of 262.

Now let's say I have a terrible admissions cycle and half the class has 524s and the other half has 518s. That would give me a predicted Step 2 average of about (drum roll)... 259. Which is statistical noise when we're talking about a typical medical school class size.

I'm glad the people who run the MCAT are so open about determining and sharing the validity data behind the MCAT. But while the data looks very clean and compelling in aggregate, that doesn't make it necessarily easy (or even useful) to apply it to decisions on individual applicants.

The problem is that when you have enough statistical power, you can find differences between practically any two things, no matter how truly insignificant the difference is.
 
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View attachment 370489


As you can see, 525 scorers on average do better than 518 scorers on both step 1 and 2, and the improvement is pretty linear. If 525 is not smarter (in a medically relevant sense) than 518, we would expect the line to plateau, but it does not. Source: MCAT® Validity Research

Say if I have a hypothetical medical school with an average MCAT of 524. Eyeballing that graph gives me a predicted Step 2 average of 262.

Now let's say I have a terrible admissions cycle and half the class has 524s and the other half has 518s. That would give me a predicted Step 2 average of about (drum roll)... 259. Which is statistical noise when we're talking about a typical medical school class size.

I'm glad the people who run the MCAT are so open about determining and sharing the validity data behind the MCAT. But while the data looks very clean and compelling in aggregate, that doesn't make it necessarily easy (or even useful) to apply it to decisions on individual applicants.

The problem is that when you have enough statistical power, you can find differences between practically any two things, no matter how truly insignificant the difference is.
P-hacking!
 
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Why is 518 always used as the benchmark to differentiate good scores and stellar scores?
 
Those kids don’t just have high MCAT scores. But I do agree that MCAT scores at that range are very volatile because a just 2-3 questions across the entire exam can be the difference between a 518 and 522.

Medical school admissions in general is mostly a game that you have to play. The MCAT is pretty easy to game if you learn the tricks they use. You can pay hundreds to thousands to be coached on application and essay writing and learn how to interview like a normal person. If you have a physician parent, you automatically have access to doctors whom you can shadow. If your cousin or sibling is a med student or resident, you can easily get yourself published as a 2nd/3rd/4th author on several papers. At the end of the day it’s just a game.

Residency admissions are much more merit based. You CANNOT game the USMLE the way you can game the MCAT. USMLE is one of the most in-depth and complicated exams in the country. You can’t just take a week long course and ace it. Getting into competitive residency programs takes a lot of time and effort - and nepotism won’t necessarily take you very far. With that being said, it still does exist at this stage.
Well to be fair USMLE shouldn’t be used to stratify applicants for residency either

 
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View attachment 370489

View attachment 370490
As you can see, 525 scorers on average do better than 518 scorers on both step 1 and 2, and the improvement is pretty linear. If 525 is not smarter (in a medically relevant sense) than 518, we would expect the line to plateau, but it does not. Source: MCAT® Validity Research
To clarify, the point of these graphs is not "525 is better than 518," it is "the magnitude of 525 being better than 518 is about the same as the magnitude of 518 being better than 511, or 511 to 504, etc." This to me is a surprising result as I had expected diminishing returns, but the data shows otherwise. So if DO schools look for 504, MD schools look for 511, higher ranked MD schools look for 518, it is perfectly reasonable to expect the most competitive schools to look for 525.

Are there any studies that look for correlations for "arguably more important factors, like their life experience" with any sort of measurable outcomes?
 
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Are there any studies that look for correlations for "arguably more important factors, like their life experience" with any sort of measurable outcomes?
I've wondered the same thing myself, since seems like a reasonable question to investigate given the proliferation of schools that use holistic review. Maybe AAMC/ADCOMS/the-powers-that-be are afraid of what such studies would reveal.
 
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Okay, except look at the percentile extenders. I bet you a statistical significance test would not show an a=0.05 significance difference between a 518 and a 525.
Yes, but a linear regression t-Test is the more relevant statistical test in this case since it compares two metric axes. It looks like a linreg t-Test would probably have a p-value <0.01 based on eyeballing it, which would demonstrate the original point that a generally higher MCAT score predicts generally higher USMLE scores.
 
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Are there any studies that look for correlations for "arguably more important factors, like their life experience" with any sort of measurable outcomes?
The challenge with these from a "study" perspective is how you quantify them, since many are qualitative experiences. For example, it's not just about the number of hours spent in a clinical setting, but your reflection on that time and what you learned from the experience, along with how intensive the experience was.

I've wondered the same thing myself, since seems like a reasonable question to investigate given the proliferation of schools that use holistic review. Maybe AAMC/ADCOMS/the-powers-that-be are afraid of what such studies would reveal.
Bingo !! Precisely that’s why it will never happen. Same with undergrad admissions.
Seems super early in the morning for conspiracy theories.

But... What exactly do you think "the powers that be" gain from hiding this information that you're sure exists?
 
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The challenge with these from a "study" perspective is how you quantify them, since many are qualitative experiences. For example, it's not just about the number of hours spent in a clinical setting, but your reflection on that time and what you learned from the experience, along with how intensive the experience was.
That is true, it is more difficult to study and draw conclusions about qualitative than qualitative data.

However, medical schools certainly have their own ways to compare qualitative data like experiences. How else would admissions committees distinguish between, for instance, 500 hours of phlebotomy that isn't well-reflected and 300 hours of scribing that is? I don't know the terminology that each school uses, whether is is a 1-5 rating system, a strong-moderately strong-...-weak scale, or something else. But, at some point in the review process, qualitative data MUST be transduced into a quantitative metric. Then, that rating is weighted according to the admissions committee's formula and factored in with other components like already-quantitative MCAT/GPA data, and other qualitative-converted-to-quantitative reflections/personal statements/interviews/letters of evaluation data.

A study could easily be performed from each schools own post-converted ratings.
But... What exactly do you think "the powers that be" gain from hiding this information that you're sure exists?
I think that by not making this information public, schools are able to hide behind "holistic review" whenever more-qualified applicants are rejected in favor of less-qualified applicants that fit their diversity goals. Currently, medical schools can claim that the discrepancy between matriculated asian or white students' MCAT/GPA scores and the rest of the population is the result of those groups not having the necessary experiences. However, if a systematic study were conducted that showed asian and white students must ALSO complete more experiences on average to be accepted into medical school, then it would demonstrate even further how racist the holistic review process really is.
 
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That is true, it is more difficult to study and draw conclusions about qualitative than qualitative data.

However, medical schools certainly have their own ways to compare qualitative data like experiences. How else would admissions committees distinguish between, for instance, 500 hours of phlebotomy that isn't well-reflected and 300 hours of scribing that is? I don't know the terminology that each school uses, whether is is a 1-5 rating system, a strong-moderately strong-...-weak scale, or something else. But, at some point in the review process, qualitative data MUST be transduced into a quantitative metric. Then, that rating is weighted according to the admissions committee's formula and factored in with other components like already-quantitative MCAT/GPA data, and other qualitative-converted-to-quantitative reflections/personal statements/interviews/letters of evaluation data.

A study could easily be performed from each schools own post-converted ratings.

I think that by not making this information public, schools are able to hide behind "holistic review" whenever more-qualified applicants are rejected in favor of less-qualified applicants that fit their diversity goals. Currently, medical schools can claim that the discrepancy between matriculated asian or white students' MCAT/GPA scores and the rest of the population is the result of those groups not having the necessary experiences. However, if a systematic study were conducted that showed asian and white students must ALSO complete more experiences on average to be accepted into medical school, then it would demonstrate even further how racist the holistic review process really is.
@eigen, my response was going to be this exactly except that I cannot match the eloquence of @please.let.me.in. He/She is on a different level.
 
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I think that by not making this information public, schools are able to hide behind "holistic review" whenever more-qualified applicants are rejected in favor of less-qualified applicants that fit their diversity goals. Currently, medical schools can claim that the discrepancy between matriculated asian or white students' MCAT/GPA scores and the rest of the population is the result of those groups not having the necessary experiences. However, if a systematic study were conducted that showed asian and white students must ALSO complete more experiences on average to be accepted into medical school, then it would demonstrate even further how racist the holistic review process really is.
Seems like you think GPA and scores matter a lot more in the context of how good of a doctor someone will be than admissions committees do.

Remember that the point of medical school admissions is to generate physicians that are needed to treat people. Given the abundance of evidence relating to how much more comfortable patients are with a physician of the same racial or ethnic group (and the direct correlations to effective care that result), why don't you consider that to be an important consideration?

It is not, nor honestly should it be, some mythical pure meritocracy.
 
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However, medical schools certainly have their own ways to compare qualitative data like experiences. How else would admissions committees distinguish between, for instance, 500 hours of phlebotomy that isn't well-reflected and 300 hours of scribing that is? I don't know the terminology that each school uses, whether is is a 1-5 rating system, a strong-moderately strong-...-weak scale, or something else. But, at some point in the review process, qualitative data MUST be transduced into a quantitative metric. Then, that rating is weighted according to the admissions committee's formula and factored in with other components like already-quantitative MCAT/GPA data, and other qualitative-converted-to-quantitative reflections/personal statements/interviews/letters of evaluation data.
Splitting this into two replies to keep the parallel discussions separate.

How would you normalize this qualitative data across medical schools?

What would you compare it to as an "end result" in terms of effectiveness?
 
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Seems like you think GPA and scores matter a lot more in the context of how good of a doctor someone will be than admissions committees do.

Remember that the point of medical school admissions is to generate physicians that are needed to treat people. Given the abundance of evidence relating to how much more comfortable patients are with a physician of the same racial or ethnic group (and the direct correlations to effective care that result), why don't you consider that to be an important consideration?

It is not, nor honestly should it be, some mythical pure meritocracy.
I think this is the key that some people overlook (or choose to ignore)! A meritocracy is good on paper, but we have to consider the reality that physicians are in public-facing roles. Given that, we then have to consider what kinds of physicians a given person one might desire to be seen by. Will some want the best and the brightest? Absolutely! Will some want one who can actually relate to them on a cultural and ethnic level? Absolutely! Both of these needs must be met by admissions committees or only some portion of our society will feel comfortable seeking medical help.
 
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I think this is the key that some people overlook (or choose to ignore)! A meritocracy is good on paper, but we have to consider the reality that physicians are in public-facing roles. Given that, we then have to consider what kinds of physicians a given person one might desire to be seen by. Will some want the best and the brightest? Absolutely! Will some want one who can actually relate to them on a cultural and ethnic level? Absolutely! Both of these needs must be met by admissions committees or only some portion of our society will feel comfortable seeking medical help.
There's also not really such a thing as a pure meritocracy, which is what makes it mythical.
 
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That is true, it is more difficult to study and draw conclusions about qualitative than qualitative data.

However, medical schools certainly have their own ways to compare qualitative data like experiences. How else would admissions committees distinguish between, for instance, 500 hours of phlebotomy that isn't well-reflected and 300 hours of scribing that is? I don't know the terminology that each school uses, whether is is a 1-5 rating system, a strong-moderately strong-...-weak scale, or something else. But, at some point in the review process, qualitative data MUST be transduced into a quantitative metric. Then, that rating is weighted according to the admissions committee's formula and factored in with other components like already-quantitative MCAT/GPA data, and other qualitative-converted-to-quantitative reflections/personal statements/interviews/letters of evaluation data.

A study could easily be performed from each schools own post-converted ratings.

I think that by not making this information public, schools are able to hide behind "holistic review" whenever more-qualified applicants are rejected in favor of less-qualified applicants that fit their diversity goals. Currently, medical schools can claim that the discrepancy between matriculated asian or white students' MCAT/GPA scores and the rest of the population is the result of those groups not having the necessary experiences. However, if a systematic study were conducted that showed asian and white students must ALSO complete more experiences on average to be accepted into medical school, then it would demonstrate even further how racist the holistic review process really is.
I like the idea, but this wouldn’t work. We’ve already seen how Harvard undergrad adcoms are perfectly willing to arbitrarily assign lower personal scores to applicants of a certain race.
 
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Seems like you think GPA and scores matter a lot more in the context of how good of a doctor someone will be than admissions committees do.

Remember that the point of medical school admissions is to generate physicians that are needed to treat people. Given the abundance of evidence relating to how much more comfortable patients are with a physician of the same racial or ethnic group (and the direct correlations to effective care that result), why don't you consider that to be an important consideration?

It is not, nor honestly should it be, some mythical pure meritocracy.
Yes, there is a lot of evidence showing that patients are more comfortable being treated by physicians of the same racial and ethnic group, which is often given as another primary justification for holistic review. By producing a pool of physicians with more varied backgrounds, America's medical schools are striving towards the laudable goal of anyone of any color being able to seek care from someone that matches their background.

However, this totally disregards intra-race diversity. In the realm of "Asian," you have students from backgrounds who for historical and cultural reasons have traditionally done well in the United States in many professions, including medicine - Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Indian. Students from these cultures have a fundamentally different experience than students from Filipino, Thai, Bengali, Vietnamese, etc. backgrounds. However, all of these people have to check the same box.

Again, I have never been a part of an admission committee, but I know that medical schools are sifting through thousands and thousands of applications. If we assume (as institutions of higher education often do) that Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Indian students come from more-privileged socioeconomic backgrounds, have greater access to resources, etc, then is it that much of a leap to think that medical school admissions committees don't have race-specific screening before and application is even read (i.e. any Asian student below a 510 gets their application thrown in the junk pile)? What about the Asian students from the cultures that have not traditionally done well? Shouldn't a Filipino-American have the chance to be treated by a fellow Filipino-American if they feel more comfortable with them than with a Chinese doctor?

Now that people on this site are going to vilify me for suggesting that there are race-specific screens before applications are read, let's assume that there aren't hard electronic cutoffs involved. Unless, for example, a Thai student makes a large portion of their personal statement/diversity question about convincing ADCOMS that they are Thai and don't have the same resources or experiences as their Korean peers, the point may be lost. What if they decided to talk about other parts of their story because it just didn't feel right to focus exclusively on their ethnicity. They'll get out-competed by the Koreans, and they won't become a doctor. The same story holds true for groups like first and second generation eastern european immigrants that get outcompeted by other white peers.

On the flip side of the coin, many of the black students that are in medical school these days are first or second generation Nigerian- or Ethiopian-Americans. It may surprise a lot of Americans, but their are top-tier universities in these countries, and these countries frequently produce engineers, professors, doctors, and scientists that emigrate to America and have kids that do exceedingly well in this country. These children have little-to-nothing in common with black people from rural Mississippi or the south side of Chicago. These students end up practicing in the suburbs where they grew up, and the students from the traditionally underserved poor urban and rural black communities have no chance to compete with the children of wealthy, educated immigrants. In this case, the end result is the same, those most affected by the SDOH are not helped at all by admissions practices that factor in race.
 
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I think you don't know a lot about how medical schools process applications and are making a lot of incorrect and uncharitable assumptions.

And that's not even getting into a lot of implicitly racist assumptions in the rest of your post about performance by certain groups, not to mention conflation of multiple different facets of diversity (ethnicity, race, SES, rural vs urban background).

I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation as the chances of it being productive are very, very low and the conspiracy theory angle is growing quite a bit.
 
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Splitting this into two replies to keep the parallel discussions separate.

How would you normalize this qualitative data across medical schools?

What would you compare it to as an "end result" in terms of effectiveness?
Normalizing qualitative data across medical schools is unnecessary. As mentioned before, schools probably already assign ratings to the experience portions of applications. Each school may have higher or lower standards for what constitutes "strong" vs. "weak," but that would actually play into the favor of the hypothetical study. If a particular school shows that, on average, accepted students of certain racial groups have higher ratings in experiential categories (according to their OWN evaluations) when those same accepted students already have to score higher on MCAT/GPA metrics, then that would be evidence in support of the hypotheses that schools are unfairly discriminating based on race.

Comparison to an "end result" would be done to USMLE scores. While a lot of people will immediately point out that doing well on tests is not necessarily an indication of how well someone will perform as a practicing physician, the national board exams do count for something. There is a reason why they are the number one factor cited by residency directors for where they rank prospective residents in the match.
 
I think you don't know a lot about how medical schools process applications and are making a lot of incorrect and uncharitable assumptions.
I think this is a point that underlies this entire discussion. You are right, I do not know how medical schools process applications because no medical schools are willing to be transparent about their process from start-to-finish. The only things I, and thousands of other students, are left with are assumptions.
And that's not even getting into a lot of implicitly racist assumptions in the rest of your post about performance by certain groups, not to mention conflation of multiple different facets of diversity (ethnicity, race, SES, rural vs urban background).
I am sorry, I was trying to be careful not to link ethnic/racial identity of certain groups to innate capacity or ability to perform. What I tried to acknowledge is that due to a myriad of historical and cultural factors, certain SUB-groups have done better than other SUB-groups in this country. The fallacy I am trying to point out is that by designating White and Asian as over-represented in medicine, it masks the differences within those groups. To truly identify the groups that are ORM, the AAMC needs to be more specific.

Also, I was deliberately trying to point out that there is more to diversity than meets the eye. I took advantage of several generalizations to convey my message. In general, those most affected by SDOH are minorities that live in rural areas or poor urban centers. I was not trying to conflate the different facets of diversity.

I apologize if I did not communicate my point clearly enough.
I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation as the chances of it being productive are very, very low and the conspiracy theory angle is growing quite a bit.
There are many drawbacks to anonymous, online forums, and they are one of the worst places to have tough discussions. I tried my best to present my point of view in a non-emotional way so that a productive conversation could be achieved, so I am sorry that you feel this way.
 
I am sorry, I was trying to be careful not to link ethnic/racial identity of certain groups to innate capacity or ability to perform. What I tried to acknowledge is that due to a myriad of historical and cultural factors, certain SUB-groups have done better than other SUB-groups in this country. The fallacy I am trying to point out is that by designating White and Asian as over-represented in medicine, it masks the differences within those groups. To truly identify the groups that are ORM, the AAMC needs to be more specific.
I just wanted to say this is something I strongly agree with (I hate the term ORM with a burning passion), but I also don't see evidence that medical schools aren't considering this. I see a lot of applicants worried that they aren't, which is where I feel like we diverge into conspiracy theories.

For instance, I have had students highlight their background as a Pacific Islander and discuss the needs of the communities they've volunteered in / worked with for PI healthcare workers and that seems to have been very well received. And you're absolutely right in that, for example, PI communities are not any better served by a Chinese vs. White physician: neither will be able to give the same comforting / culturally responsive care that a PI physician would.
There are many drawbacks to anonymous, online forums, and they are one of the worst places to have tough discussions. I tried my best to present my point of view in a non-emotional way so that a productive conversation could be achieved, so I am sorry that you feel this way.
You're right, and I apologize for summarily jumping to conclusions. Posts like this come up each application cycle around this time and invariably end up in unproductive places, but I should be more careful not to group those things together.

But as Gyngyn has pointed out, I'm also contributing to veering this thread off topic.
 
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It appears the OP got their answer and has not had any further questions for the past week.

In short, it becomes very competitive at certain schools, but a 520 is not going to hold an applicant back vs somebody with a 525.

Closing.
 
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