Why are Southern Med Schools so much easier to get into?

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p9142

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Why are the schools in the south easier to get into? There are a couple out there who seem selective, but many have MCAT averages around 27. The answer appears to be that the regions are not populated as heavily as the north. I guess it doesn't really matter, but I would just like to know.

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BrettBatchelor said:
I was going to answer until you made a totally ignorant comment.

I must be extremely ignorant, because I don't even know what the ignorant comment is.

BTW, I am not trying to bash the south, I just want to know why the schools are so much easier to get into.
 
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p9142 said:
I must be extremely ignorant, because I don't even know what the ignorant comment is.

BTW, I am not trying to bash the south, I just want to know why the schools are so much easier to get into.
Check that list out and you'll see how many southern HS are top notch.
 
I'd be curious about the SD in the ACT articles. You can bend stats whichever way you want them. You came off as a "northern snob".

Nonetheless, the south is more sparsely populated and the schools are almost exclusively in-state only schools. Hence there is a smaller pool of applicants from which they can draw from as dictated by their state legislation. Therefore as you put it they"don't have students coming from the north to take the spots."
 
p9142 said:
I am not arguing that there are not good schools in the south, but rather that overall the education is much worse than other states. By the way, since you brought it up . . . .

http://detroit.about.com/gi/dynamic...t&zu=http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank04.htm
http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.torres4bpt.com/pdf/cr_baeo.pdf
http://www.act.org/news/data/04/states.html

Anyways do you have an answer to my original question?
well, TEXAS has the best education and some of the most competitive med. schools...and the majority of their students are from Texas....avg. of 3,000 apps for 200 or so spots.
 
Please give p9142 some credits; s/he just wants to ask perhaps the "unasked question”, which I hope is the purpose of this forum.

Anyways, I would not say that all of the southern schools are easy to get into; there are some highly competitive schools in the South. The reasons why they “appeared” to accept most students with perhaps low scores--please don't get upset over this...I’m not saying that all schools in the South accept low scores--is because there are not very many students with high scores from the north or other parts of the country who wish to change their living situations...it's a very different environment in the South say New Orleans LA verses Portland, OR. In addition, most people disagree with the humidity and burning heat during the summer. These are some reasons that I could offer as factors for students not going to some southern schools. However, all medical schools are competitive and hard to get into. Smiles!!!!

MIS
 
BrettBatchelor said:
I was going to answer until you made a totally ignorant comment.
Munch on this for awhile:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7723397/site/newsweek/
I'm not bashing you BB and this doesn't really have much to do with the thread, but I'm not sure that this ranking is a great reflection of quality.

Ratio measures are prone to the effects on both the numerator and the denominator. # AP tests per graduating student - well, if a lot of your students drop out, your ratio goes up. And, I'm not going to make *vast* generalizations, but I know some states have different policies on getting students through the educational system.

For instance, AZ tries to get students through 8th grade but not all students are encouraged to finish high school. Some argue that schools in TX shift their less educated students to other schools. And NYC public high school selection is process that was very foreign to me (until I got to my undergrad institution, which consisted of a majority of New Yorkers).
 
dante201 said:
I'm not bashing you BB and this doesn't really have much to do with the thread, but I'm not sure that this ranking is a great reflection of quality.

Ratio measures are prone to the effects on both the numerator and the denominator. # AP tests per graduating student - well, if a lot of your students drop out, your ratio goes up. And, I'm not going to make *vast* generalizations, but I know some states have different policies on getting students through the educational system.

For instance, AZ tries to get students through 8th grade but not all students are encouraged to finish high school. Some argue that schools in TX shift their less educated students to other schools. And NYC public high school selection is process that was very foreign to me (until I got to my undergrad institution, which consisted of a majority of New Yorkers).
I agree it wasn't the most scholarly source but it was the quickest thing I could find. 😉

The point still stands that the reason why they are so low is because states protect the residents and give them a pool of spots to compete for that better OOS students can't.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
You came off as a "northern snob".

What a stupid phrase.
 
tkdusb said:
Wow.

The top 100 doesn't include Thomas Jefferson in VA, or Stuyvesant, or Townsend Harris, or Hunter in NY.

Wow.

From their FAQ's:

1. How does the Challenge Index work?
I take the total number of AP or IB tests given at a school in May, and divide by the number of seniors graduating in June. All schools that NEWSWEEK researchers Dan Berrett and Dan Brillman and I found that achieved a ratio of at least 1.000, meaning they had as many tests in 2004 as they had graduates, are on the list on the NEWSWEEK Web site, and the top 100 schools on that list are named in the magazine.

So it's all just based on the ratio of AP and IB tests (not number passed, just the number taken) to the number of graduates. That doesn't really tell you very much.
 
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Southern schools weren't easier for ME to get into, and I've been a Southern denizen for 26 years now. I got into my state schools and UAB, was waitlisted at one other Southern school, and was rejected from another. In general, I've been the most successful applying to schools in the midwest.
 
docolive said:
well, TEXAS has the best education and some of the most competitive med. schools...and the majority of their students are from Texas....avg. of 3,000 apps for 200 or so spots.

I love Texas, and it IS harder than people think for us to get in in-state (I think about 66% of in-state applicant's don't match at any of the TX schools) but my HS education was pretty crappy 🙂
 
p9142 said:
Why are the schools in the south so easy to get into? There are a couple out there who seem selective, but many have averages around 27. I know that southern education (high school) is horrible, but don't they have students coming from the north to take the spots? Just wondering.


do you realize how ignorant you sound?! 😡
 
I will say that the top high schools list is horribly flawed. I am from Alabama and the #1 school on the list (Jeff Co. IB) really isn't a public high school. It is a magnet program of sorts that takes the best students from the public high schools in the biggest county in Alabama and puts them in one school with only the IB curriculum and they are required to take the tests to get college credit. A lot of that ranking system is based on how many AP/IB tests you have taken if I remember correctly. I am from Alabama. Our public education system is good in places and bad in places. I don't think the OP was really too far off. Maybe he just lacked a bit of tact.
 
docolive said:
well, TEXAS has the best education and some of the most competitive med. schools...and the majority of their students are from Texas....avg. of 3,000 apps for 200 or so spots.

I'll go for Texas having great med schools (well, at least Baylor) but I hardly think that Texas takes the cake for higher education in the South.

North Carolina has some really good public universities (UNC and NC State) as well as some great private schools but the high school education is lacking in many of the rural areas. Virginia also comes to mind, with UVA and William and Mary.
 
docolive said:
well, TEXAS has the best education and some of the most competitive med. schools...and the majority of their students are from Texas....avg. of 3,000 apps for 200 or so spots.

3,000 applicants for 200 spots - per school. But there are how many state med schools in Texas? 6? So that's really 3,000 applications for 1200 spots ~ 40% of applicants will get a spot. That's actually a LOT higher chance of getting in than at other state schools. For example, UMass generally has 800 applicants for 100 spots.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the original post.
 
diosa428 said:
3,000 applicants for 200 spots - per school. But there are how many state med schools in Texas? 6? So that's really 3,000 applications for 1200 spots ~ 40% of applicants will get a spot. That's actually a LOT higher chance of getting in than at other state schools. For example, UMass generally has 800 applicants for 100 spots.

BTW, this has nothing to do with the original post.

In 2005, 3694 applicants, 1211 enrolled = 32.7% (just to set the record straight).

Now, back on topic 🙂
 
p9142 said:
Why are the schools in the south so easy to get into? There are a couple out there who seem selective, but many have averages around 27. I know that southern education (high school) is horrible, but don't they have students coming from the north to take the spots? Just wondering.

I am not from the south and I can tell you that making such assumptions purely on percentages of acceptance is rather foolish. Many of those states have laws that prevent them for accepting too many out of state students and thus they are dealing with a smaller applicant pool. In many ways, this is a great idea as you begin to wonder just how many students going from Seattle to New Orleans are likely to stay there once they graduate. And 'easy to get into' is a very relative term. No medical school in the US is easy to get into. And MCAT scores are not the indicator of intelligence. If they were, Harvard would have an average much higher than 32R.

I also think it's odd to say that the high schools in the south are horrible. I have never seen a good study that indicates this. Why are you so confident tha the south is inferior to the north? Just to show a flaw in your own argument, the school with the highest average MCAT score is in missourri... 😕
 
nmnrraven said:
Just to show a flaw in your own argument, the school with the highest average MCAT score is in missourri... 😕

I would not call Missouri a part of the south. It's definitely midwest.
 
p9142 said:
Why are the schools in the south so easy to get into? There are a couple out there who seem selective, but many have averages around 27. I know that southern education (high school) is horrible, but don't they have students coming from the north to take the spots? Just wondering.
Med school is med school. I can't stand arrogant premeds. Not aiming that towards you but once you get out there you will realize the docs and patients don't give a F where you went to school as long as you are competent. although it never hurts you to be from a bomb a$$ school.


My brother is a D.O. CHIEF RESIDENT at Wash U...one of the best allopathic schools. He said he's had some of the WORST and BEST students from IVY schools under him. once you guys get out there you will realize it's not all about the numbers.
 
Rafa said:
I would not call Missouri a part of the south. It's definitely midwest.

Never said it was part of the south. Just used it to show that the 'north' is not elite. Gotta be careful with those assumptions. 🙂
 
My whole reason for starting the thread was to ask why average MCAT scores are lower for these schools, and also if it means that a person will be considered a second class doctor for going to one of these schools. My local doctor told me to get out of the state because I would be considered second rate if I went to the state schools here, but he went to an Ivy and might just be elitist.
I figure that I should be competitive at most schools, but I would rather stay here because tuition is so cheap.
 
because it's hot and there are too many bugs. That's the answer.
 
happydays said:
because it's hot and there are too many bugs. That's the answer.

👍
 
LOL, this entire thread reminded me of a couple of friends who grew up in FL and New Orleans who both complained that their state's educational system 'sucked'. My FL friend went so far as to attend private schools for his entire educational career because the city's public schools were perceived to be so bad, so I've heard a lot of bad stuff about southern educational system---then again, I'm living in the state where my parents and their friends are constantly complaining about how bad this state's educational system is---maybe with good reason, we consistently rank bottom in education.

I figure that's probably how I got into the state's med school, I just didn't have alot of competition. But I don't care, all US accredited med schools are going to churn out docs, so if they make it easier for me to enter, then so be it. I feel no pride for where I live, and I guess I'll never understand that thing called 'southern pride'. It probably stems from my nomadic youth. I don't feel insulted when people put down anyplace I live, if my state's educational sucked, that's hardly a reflection on me, more on the educational establishment of the state.

As for the reason for some southern medical schools lower MCAT scores---I doubt one can say it's because of the instate thing as other state schools elsewhere also have instate matriculant stipulation, yet 30 is the average at many of these schools. Even the state where I'm at has their instate med school set their MCAT at 30 and GPA at ~3.7 and we have to accept >95% instaters. I'll leave it up to the people more familiar with southern medical schools to figure out why some have lower scores.

Frankly, I wouldn't feel insulted, I'd be thrilled to be in a state where the med school's MCAT score was lower than the national average. Considering how difficult is to get into med school, why would anyone want to BE in a state where the average matriculant needs a 35 to get in? If a med school makes it easier for me to get in, then that's all it matters, isn't it? 😀
 
*puts Flame Suit On!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
 
NonTradMed said:
LOL, this entire thread reminded me of a couple of friends who grew up in FL and New Orleans who both complained that their state's educational system 'sucked'. My FL friend went so far as to attend private schools for his entire educational career because the city's public schools were perceived to be so bad, so I've heard a lot of bad stuff about southern educational system---then again, I'm living in the state where my parents and their friends are constantly complaining about how bad this state's educational system is---maybe with good reason, we consistently rank bottom in education.

I figure that's probably how I got into the state's med school, I just didn't have alot of competition. But I don't care, all US accredited med schools are going to churn out docs, so if they make it easier for me to enter, then so be it. I feel no pride for where I live, and I guess I'll never understand that thing called 'southern pride'. It probably stems from my nomadic youth. I don't feel insulted when people put down anyplace I live, if my state's educational sucked, that's hardly a reflection on me, more on the educational establishment of the state.

As for the reason for some southern medical schools lower MCAT scores---I doubt one can say it's because of the instate thing as other state schools elsewhere also have instate matriculant stipulation, yet 30 is the average at many of these schools. Even the state where I'm at has their instate med school set their MCAT at 30 and GPA at ~3.7 and we have to accept >95% instaters. I'll leave it up to the people more familiar with southern medical schools to figure out why some have lower scores.

Frankly, I wouldn't feel insulted, I'd be thrilled to be in a state where the med school's MCAT score was lower than the national average. Considering how difficult is to get into med school, why would anyone want to BE in a state where the average matriculant needs a 35 to get in? If a med school makes it easier for me to get in, then that's all it matters, isn't it? 😀
The sample size for these schools are smaller. Remember the average applicant has a 27 MCAT. For example:

Arizona
776 App with 73.6% in state apps = 571 Apps for 110 Spots = 5.2 apps per spot.

SUNY DS
3435 App with 57.4% in state apps = 1972 Apps for 162 Spots (187 x 87% in state matriculants) = 12.7 apps per spot.

IMO, It is all about population density. The more population and hence more apps, the greater the chance of having higher scores to cherry pick from.

Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005school.htm
 
Ditto on the above comments about Southern public school education being horrid. Seriously, what kind of person holds that kind of broad assumption? You might as well say blacks are criminals and that Muslims are terrorists.

That said, many Southern state schools (Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina) have both lower medical school seats per capita than those elsewhere and also cater primarily only to in-state students, with few exceptions. Both of these tend to reduce admissions rates.
 
p9142 said:
Why are the schools in the south so easy to get into? There are a couple out there who seem selective, but many have averages around 27. I know that southern education (high school) is horrible, but don't they have students coming from the north to take the spots? Just wondering.

Which schools are you talking about in particular?
 
Certainly the post above by brettbachelor makes sense regarding the applicant pool at some schools/regions versus others. However, in the big scheme of things, remember this:

Whether you get accepted to medical school in the big named northeastern schools like Hopkins, MGH, etc. or the "po-dunk" southeastern schools (I can say that coming from UT Memphis) you will still be taking virtually the same courses and learning from the same books that everyone else in the United States is learning from for the first 2 years and rotating through the same hospital rotations during your 3rd and 4th years as everyone else. Your success is determined by how much you are willing to prepare yourself no matter where you go or what your MCAT score is....and MCATs don't necessarily dictate how well you can do in medical school!

I had what I would consider a mediocre MCAT score (29), enough to get into UT Memphis (didn't bother applying up north), but once I got accepted to medical school, I studied my a$$ off and did very well on Step I (252/99). Now I'm a 4th year preparing for the match in General Surgery next week, and I'm just as competitive as any of the applicants throughout the nation, no matter where they went to medical school. (applied to 23 of the best programs in the northeast and southeast and was offered 23 interviews!)

Therefore, when looking at MCAT scores and medical school programs that you are interested in, the main thing to consider is where you will be the happiest (whether for personal reasons, family, location, pretty women in bikinis, climate, SEC football, etc...) and not necessarily what the reputation of the program or the average MCAT on admission. When all is said and done, you will have to study just as hard at a program with average MCAT 35 as you would at the program with average MCAT 25. If you don't, you won't put yourself in the best position to do well on Step I, which will ultimately determine how competitive you are in the end when applying for residency.

Bottom line...getting accepted SOMEWHERE is really all that matters. Once thats done, its all up to each individual person to determine his or her fate. You can graduate from the worst medical school in the nation, and you will still be called "doctor." Course, thats just my opinion for what its worth!
 
What about Affirmative Action?

Maybe there are more state schools in the south, and therefore, they have to abide by affirmative action. Which in case, I think can drag the Average MCAT and GPA down by quite a bit.

*I have not done research on this, so, this is just a guess, no bashing on me for this....PLEASE!! 🙂
 
Dammit, no one seems to want to say it so I'll say it:

The South sucks!!

*

BAHA!
 
p9142 said:
Why are the schools in the south so easy to get into? There are a couple out there who seem selective, but many have averages around 27. I know that southern education (high school) is horrible, but don't they have students coming from the north to take the spots? Just wondering.

You do realize that there is no correlation between MCAT scores and Board scores, don't you? By the way, Mercer avg MCAT = @27 and average Board scores = over 230. Besides, what the he!! do high school test scores have anything to do with medical school?
 
The relation between the broad availability of great high school education and the quality of higher education at institutions from the same area is not a necessary one.

Every state has a number of good high schools, which churn out students capable of succeeding in college and being qualified applicants to professional school. The percentage of schools that are doing a great job will no doubt vary from state to state. However, In most cities you are likely to find a mix of some great schools and many mediocre to lousy.

In some communities, these great high schools are likely to be private. In other communities, they may be public. Now, public schools in Alabama tend to come in two flavors: Lousy and Great. City life in Alabama is divided nicely by socioeconomic status. Middle class people live in certain townships within the metro areas, upper class people live in other townships, and lower class people live in still other townships.

IN the Birmingham Metro area, we have like 15-20 different school systems & police forces, based on which township you live in. THe history of education in Birmingham (and much of the south, I suspect) is such that middle class and rich people live in neighborhoods that incorporated so that their kids didn't have to go to school with poor (typically non-white) students. Their schools are run better, have better teachers, better resources, etc. Students from these schools get rockin educations and go to good colleges and either become proffessionals, businesspeople, or the idle rich. The rest of the students go to mediocre (if they are lucky) or ****ty schools. So Southern education isn't bad per se; it is stratified, and unegalitarian.

There are plenty of bright men and women available to apply to our local professional schools, since a good fraction of our population has access to great schools & resources. The average MCAT scores for both Alabama med schools is 29-30. This is despite the fact that the % of accepted out of state applicants varies between 28% to 15% (last year).

The fact that general public education is sketchy in an area bears little relation to that area's ability to generate smart people or well educated people. It does, however, make it harder for poor and disadvantaged individuals to achieve. Even so, I am dubious about whether or not this is a unique problem for the south. Have any of you ever looked at the socioeconomic background info in the AAMC's matriculant questionaire? Most successful med school candidates are coming from money or from the upper half of the middle class. There's plenty of middle and upper class folks, even in the South, and parents of middle and upper class kids always try to find good education for their kids, even in the South.

------------------------

Despite the quality of education at a med school such as UAB, I admit that it might be fair to say that it is relatively "easy" to get into, as long as you are an in-state student with acceptable stats and you aren't a social freak. But "relatively easy" is still misleading. The truth is that truly weak candidates are never chosen (except by accident) at any southern allopathic school. (And I say allopathic here not because I doubt the quality of osteopathic schools, but because I really know nothing about osteopathic schools, or how they select candidates.)
 
nmnrraven said:
I am not from the south and I can tell you that making such assumptions purely on percentages of acceptance is rather foolish. Many of those states have laws that prevent them for accepting too many out of state students and thus they are dealing with a smaller applicant pool. In many ways, this is a great idea as you begin to wonder just how many students going from Seattle to New Orleans are likely to stay there once they graduate. And 'easy to get into' is a very relative term. No medical school in the US is easy to get into. And MCAT scores are not the indicator of intelligence. If they were, Harvard would have an average much higher than 32R.

I also think it's odd to say that the high schools in the south are horrible. I have never seen a good study that indicates this. Why are you so confident tha the south is inferior to the north? Just to show a flaw in your own argument, the school with the highest average MCAT score is in missourri... 😕

harvards average is 34Q, i believe
 
BrettBatchelor said:
The sample size for these schools are smaller. Remember the average applicant has a 27 MCAT. For example:

Arizona
776 App with 73.6% in state apps = 571 Apps for 110 Spots = 5.2 apps per spot.

SUNY DS
3435 App with 57.4% in state apps = 1972 Apps for 162 Spots (187 x 87% in state matriculants) = 12.7 apps per spot.

IMO, It is all about population density. The more population and hence more apps, the greater the chance of having higher scores to cherry pick from.

Source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005school.htm

True. That's a plausible reason. So that means (per your example) that people in the Northeast and west coast would have the most difficult time getting in then....because there's a higher applicant to available seats ratio.

Also, do you think it may have something to do with a less educated populace? Some of the southern states like Arkansas and Mississippi have some of the lowest rate of college educated adults in the nation (per population) which could also lead to lower than average applicant per seat ratio. I only know this because my own state ranked bottom, and I was quite surprised as we have several major schools in and around the state.
 
odrade1 said:
The relation between the broad availability of great high school education and the quality of higher education at institutions from the same area is not a necessary one.

Every state has a number of good high schools, which churn out students capable of succeeding in college and being qualified applicants to professional school. The percentage of schools that are doing a great job will no doubt vary from state to state. However, In most cities you are likely to find a mix of some great schools and many mediocre to lousy.

In some communities, these great high schools are likely to be private. In other communities, they may be public. Now, public schools in Alabama tend to come in two flavors: Lousy and Great. City life in Alabama is divided nicely by socioeconomic status. Middle class people live in certain townships within the metro areas, upper class people live in other townships, and lower class people live in still other townships.

IN the Birmingham Metro area, we have like 15-20 different school systems & police forces, based on which township you live in. THe history of education in Birmingham (and much of the south, I suspect) is such that middle class and rich people live in neighborhoods that incorporated so that their kids didn't have to go to school with poor (typically non-white) students. Their schools are run better, have better teachers, better resources, etc. Students from these schools get rockin educations and go to good colleges and either become proffessionals, businesspeople, or the idle rich. The rest of the students go to mediocre (if they are lucky) or ****ty schools. So Southern education isn't bad per se; it is stratified, and unegalitarian.

There are plenty of bright men and women available to apply to our local professional schools, since a good fraction of our population has access to great schools & resources. The average MCAT scores for both Alabama med schools is 29-30. This is despite the fact that the % of accepted out of state applicants varies between 28% to 15% (last year).

The fact that general public education is sketchy in an area bears little relation to that area's ability to generate smart people or well educated people. It does, however, make it harder for poor and disadvantaged individuals to achieve. Even so, I am dubious about whether or not this is a unique problem for the south. Have any of you ever looked at the socioeconomic background info in the AAMC's matriculant questionaire? Most successful med school candidates are coming from money or from the upper half of the middle class. There's plenty of middle and upper class folks, even in the South, and parents of middle and upper class kids always try to find good education for their kids, even in the South.

------------------------

Despite the quality of education at a med school such as UAB, I admit that it might be fair to say that it is relatively "easy" to get into, as long as you are an in-state student with acceptable stats and you aren't a social freak. But "relatively easy" is still misleading. The truth is that truly weak candidates are never chosen (except by accident) at any southern allopathic school. (And I say allopathic here not because I doubt the quality of osteopathic schools, but because I really know nothing about osteopathic schools, or how they select candidates.)

Good post! 👍
 
NonTradMed said:
True. That's a plausible reason. So that means (per your example) that people in the Northeast and west coast would have the most difficult time getting in then....because there's a higher applicant to available seats ratio.

Also, do you think it may have something to do with a less educated populace? Some of the southern states like Arkansas and Mississippi have some of the lowest rate of college educated adults in the nation (per population) which could also lead to lower than average applicant per seat ratio. I only know this because my own state ranked bottom, and I was quite surprised as we have several major schools in and around the state.
When you start to deal with harder to get into, things get muddied a bit since NY has way more med schools than Arizona thus while they might not get into one, after waitlists filter out, they might end up at "A" medical school at the same rate as someone from AZ. I dunno. A more detailed analysis must be done.

Less educated population as a whole could be plausible. If there are less people entering college, there are less people would graduate and hence be applying to med schools. I'm sure a sociologist somewhere has dedicated their life work to said topic.
 
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