Why both degrees?

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NSLhobbit

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I am working on articulating why I want to pursue both degrees, but my answers just sound cliche.

Little background. I've done several years worth of research (two and a half school years and starting my third summer) in neural stem cells and have also done clinical volunteering for three years (I'm going into my senior year now). I am thinking of pursuing neurology and researching neuroregeneration (spinal injuries) or cancer stem cells. If I had to choose one or the other, I would pick research, but after all of the time I have spent in a clinical setting, I still would like some patient contact. Also, I want to do some translational research when the time comes to move "from bench to bedside" (yes. quite cliche).

I'm worried that when the time comes to answer the question, "Why MD/PhD?" in an interview that I won't have enough to say or that it will just sound typical/overused. I know how I feel and what I want, but how to express it is another matter. Is that how some current MD/PhD student answered that question, or am I missing something?

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Honestly, if at this point in your career you would pick research, I would seriously reevaluate getting the MD at all. If you aren't primarily motivated by patient care to start, then 7+ years of clinical training is going to be hell.

I know several people who decided they really didn't like patient care after third year and decided to go the path or rads route, but please don't go to medical school for the other cliche of gaining some persepctive to help you with translational research. You can gain that perspective without a formal MD and residency training.

The bitter MDs out there are the ones who hate patient care and are pissed off their reimbursements suck and they won't be able to retire early. Don't be that clinician.
 
Honestly, if at this point in your career you would pick research, I would seriously reevaluate getting the MD at all. If you aren't primarily motivated by patient care to start, then 7+ years of clinical training is going to be hell.

I know several people who decided they really didn't like patient care after third year and decided to go the path or rads route, but please don't go to medical school for the other cliche of gaining some persepctive to help you with translational research. You can gain that perspective without a formal MD and residency training.

The bitter MDs out there are the ones who hate patient care and are pissed off their reimbursements suck and they won't be able to retire early. Don't be that clinician.

See... I don't want to do only PhD. I've done some pretty decent volunteer work (nothing like follow a resident for a month but shadowing doctors and volunteering in a hospital/clinic) to know that I still want some patient contact. It is if I had to chose one over the other, I would choose research.

Is simply saying that I want to care for patients good enough justification for why I want both degrees? Are adcoms looking for more than that?
 
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It is if I had to chose one over the other, I would choose research.
Then don't get an MD!
Seriously, if you could see yourself being happy doing anything else, don't be a physician, it's too much of a sacrifice.

If patient care is not your #1 priority, IMHO, don't get an MD.
 
If patient care is not your #1 priority, IMHO, don't get an MD.

I'll have to keep thinking about that. What confuses me is don't most MD/PhD people want to do mainly research hense the 80/20 type split or more?
 
I'll have to keep thinking about that. What confuses me is don't most MD/PhD people want to do mainly research hense the 80/20 type split or more?
Many realize they prefer research and do the minimal clinical work necessary to maintain certification. Think of it this way, if you have a 35 year career, and spend 20% doing clinical, that means you'll spend about 7 work years doing clinical work. It will take you at least 7 years to get that training. Why would you ever spend 7+ years training for a job you'll only do for an equivalent of 7 years?!?! It makes no sense to me personally. It would be like a clinician deciding to get a PhD and then post-doc for a couple years because they wanted to dabble in some research one day a week.
 
I am apparently confused about all of this. What would you say the benefit of doing an MD/PhD is then if you are going to spend little time doing clinical activity anyways?

Thanks for the advice.
 
I am apparently confused about all of this. What would you say the benefit of doing an MD/PhD is then if you are going to spend little time doing clinical activity anyways?

Thanks for the advice.

Why do you want us to tell you why you want an MD/PhD? If you can't write the essay yourself and be happy with it, maybe you shouldn't be applying.

If you know why you want the degree, don't listen to anyone tell you you're wrong. You know your reasons and have to be able to stand behind them when people ask. Taking advice from anyone else is just going to weaken your stance.
 
I don't have much to input here about your original question seeing as I'm just beginning an mstp this coming year; however, I would say that calvinNHobbes's opinions, while strong, are somewhat extreme.

I also don't agree with the opinion that if you cannot articulate your reasoning yet you shouldn't be applying. You're best bet on this front is to spend LOTS of time reading through articles about MD-PhD programs (there are many articles, see the sticky at the top of this section of the forum). They will give you some professional insight to the advantages and disadvantages to this path.

Whether or not training for x for y number of years is a waste is completely a personal decision. Like you, I see myself aligned much more on the research side than the patient side of things. However, I know that I like working with patients and don't want to spend my entire career isolated in a laboratory. Further, my research interests are not particularly conducive to clinical work. Many people will argue that I'm being too idealistic with this reasoning. I'm doing this all with the understanding that I may not accomplish as much (research wise) as I might if I went the PhD only route. I've had numerous "freak out" moments over the last several months as I've finally begun to understand the true costs of this route, but ultimately I'm happy because I believe the sacrifices will be worth it.

Just REALLY think about how much time it will cost you to be able to see patients and how old you are going to be when you can finally start your career. If you educate yourself thoroughly about this career you will know if it is the right decision for you. Don't back down just because of a few people's opinions on an internet forum. The truth is that many people have many different philosophies about exactly who should get an MD-PhD and none of them are right are wrong.
 
What would you say the benefit of doing an MD/PhD is then if you are going to spend little time doing clinical activity anyways?
My goal has always been to be as close to a 50/50 split as possible. I would never go through med school+residency just to do a half day clinic once a week. You could instead spend those 80 hour weeks making tenure.
 
I don't have much to input here about your original question seeing as I'm just beginning an mstp this coming year; however, I would say that calvinNHobbes's opinions, while strong, are somewhat extreme.
You don't make it through an MD/PhD by having weak opinions! ;)

Honestly, I'm just trying to get all you new guys to really think about your future and what you actually need to get there. I've seen way too many people in med school and grad school who are absolutely miserable because they didn't think about what they wanted. They were on the education train and were too afraid to get off. Don't do that to yourself. Life is too short to waste it.
 
I don't agree with C+H. I went into this knowing that I would rather do a PhD than an MD, given the choice to only do one. And Adcoms loved it! They don't want you to drop out after the first two years of Med School or half way through your PhD and keep their money to stick with just an MD, because getting a PhD is hard. If you don't ADORE research, then you shouldn't waste your time on a PhD, when you can just get an MD and spend part of your time doing research anyway. Whether or not you have the noble goal of 50/50 (which most of us do going into it), the REALITY is that most people end up doing mostly research. So if you'd rather have a PhD, then you're going to have a long happy career as an MD/PhD. If you really WANT to do 50/50, then you'll make it happen. If you love research, then do mostly research. Your career can be whatever you want. That's the beauty of the combined degree programs! The best thing you can do in interviews is be honest. They can sniff out someone who is fake from a mile away.

And all of this "you tell us" is kind of rude IMHO. If you don't have anything helpful to say, why post at all?

You don't have to have an original answer to be successful in interviews. If you want to do an MD/PhD because a pink elephant told you to during a drug withdrawal seizure, you're probably not going to get in. Interviews are for making sure that you are what you claimed to be on paper, and that you are a normal human being. They aren't for being the most original person there.
 
And all of this "you tell us" is kind of rude IMHO. If you don't have anything helpful to say, why post at all?

You don't have to have an original answer to be successful in interviews. If you want to do an MD/PhD because a pink elephant told you to during a drug withdrawal seizure, you're probably not going to get in. Interviews are for making sure that you are what you claimed to be on paper, and that you are a normal human being. They aren't for being the most original person there.

Getting someone to speak for themselves is the only helpful thing to do here. Plagiarism is no one's friend, and I would hope anyone applying MD/PhD would know that by now.
 
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GliaGirl,
I'm just curious, why are you bothering with the MD then?

You argue that if you don't "adore" research, you shouldn't bother with a PhD, then why not the reciprocal for the MD. If you don't "adore" patient care, why be a physician?

Also, why do you think most MD/PhDs do mostly research? Is this what we should be aiming for? If so, why? If not, why? I personally don't understand the logic of 7+ years of clinical training simply for the fun of it. Yes, your career can be whatever you want it, but if you know you'd rather do one over the other before even starting, why waste the time?
 
My goal has always been to be as close to a 50/50 split as possible. I would never go through med school+residency just to do a half day clinic once a week. You could instead spend those 80 hour weeks making tenure.


calvinNhobbes can you explain to me some of your career goals. i admit that i spent my last year thinking about md/phd in a naive sort of way because i thought i could do orthopaedic sports medicine and research but i didn't realize how both require a fairly large amount of time and i probably would be unable to commit properly to both. i'd appreciate any advice you can give as someone working to balance both clinical and research and on the value that the md/phd gives to that type of career. thanks
 
So I'll chime in with how I see it as a more senior student.

First of all - I think these questions are perfectly reasonable to be asked by those considering the MD/PhD. Like a lot of things in medicine, you only get to read about it on paper, and after going through the experience, it feels much different than what you'd anticipated. I think it's only fair for potential applicants to ask us how things end up turning out - in fact, I wish this happened more often. It's easy to learn a widely accepted answer for the purpose of interviews (80/20, R01 lab, etc. etc.), but I think it helps to weigh how realistic that answer is.

OP - I personally think that as long as you genuinely enjoy patient contact and don't want to devote your career solely to research, that is justification enough to pursue the combined program - as long as that patient contact is worth it to you in terms of the 7+ extra years it will take you to complete the clinical portion of your training. The difficult part is knowing, in your shoes, whether or not it's worth it - but if patient care brings you genuine satisfaction in a way that science alone cannot, I would say the answer should be yes.

Now, in terms of giving up clinical work for science - many of the "model" guest speaker faculty that give talks as part of our MD/PhD program events have or are in the process of giving up clinical practice in favor of research. However, these tend to be somewhat older, well established, investigators in the prime of their careers (or close to retirement) and I would venture that they started out in science when the funding/promotion situation was a bit less cutthroat than it is now.

It seems to me that at present, the pendulum is swinging the other way, as more and more MD/PhD seniors pursue "non-traditional" fields (ophtho, derm, various surgical subspecialties) outside of pathology and peds/medicine subspecialties, while knowing that these fields have less well established pathways for developing basic science physician-scientists. I don't have nationwide hard data on this, though it's probably out there (and someone correct me if I'm wrong). I suspect that the difficulties that more recent graduates have faced in getting research funding in this climate are behind this shift to careers that emphasize the clinical part of the training.

Bottom line on all this - I don't know whether the 80/20 pathway, or the 80/20-->100/0 pathway will stick around as the dominant MD-PhD model. I think it'd be helpful for other folks advanced in the process to comment here.
 
I posted some of this in another thread, but I think some of the same points apply here.

I am starting as an M1 this year in an MD/PhD program, and I had some of the same feelings as the OP does. I knew in my heart that I really wanted to do the MD/PhD, but articulating that was hard. It just seemed like the perfect fit for me. I was, however, sort of a non-traditional student; I did all my research in clinical psychology and my extra-curriculars and my minor all involved creative writing and publishing. I also took a year off from school and learned to teach and do Zen meditation. So, grain of salt I guess.

The answer I ultimately came up with was this: My passion is research, but that I want my work to really have clinical applications. I knew I wouldn't be content just working in a lab, helping people abstractly. I wanted to really see the people who have the illnesses I'm researching and see the human side, learn about what their experience is like and what their needs are. And to heal them and work with them, directly, in a more immediate sense. Research and practice are two sides of the same coin to me; both inform one another, both are ways that I can help to heal. (Of course, I had clinical experience and LOVED it and wanted more of it--that should hopefully be true of you as well.)

The tricky thing for interviews is that you have to be able to convince your interviewers that you really want and need BOTH degrees. It is a tricky fence to walk. IMO the more important thing is to make sure they know that you're interested in and dedicated to patient care and clinical work (i.e., you're not just looking for a free MD). I say that because as any good researcher, it should be a piece of cake to talk about your research interests and convince them that you love research--it is a lot harder to convince them that you really want to do patient care. The key thing is to let them know that you want your research to really be clinically relevant, and that you think patient care will be both personally rewarding, and will inform your research.

On the PhD side of things, here is a list I came up with of good reasons to pursue the PhD instead of the MD-only route for research:

1. Funding. All good MD/PhD programs give you free tuition for both degrees, as well as a stipend. This is a real boon if you are considering a research-heavy career, because it is a pay cut vs. being a clinical doctor. The less clinical hours you take, in general, the less money you make. Grants help cover you salary, but they are not generous. So if you end up doing a lot of research, the burden of debt is less manageable.

(however, look into the NIH Loan Repayment Programs, which will help you a lot with your debt if you do research)

2. Contacts. One of the biggest skills in academic research is networking. Medical school will give you few, if any, opportunities to do things like go to research conferences and present papers. Which brings me to:

3. Publishing. Part of what you do in graduate school is do a bunch of research and try to get it published. A successful student should have at least a handful of first-author publications after four or five years, which are necessary for:

4. Grant-writing. As a researcher you pay your own way by writing grants, and it's easier to get grant money if you're already published or have pilot work demonstrating your ability as a researcher and the feasibility of your proposed project.

So in other words, what you get from grad school is four or five sheltered years to really learn the ins and outs of research, to learn to write papers and grants, and to meet the people in your field who will help you get ahead. This puts you at a really distinct advantage over MD-only researchers, at least at the beginning of your research career; MD-only researchers, from what I can tell, have to hit residency or practice and immediately hustle as much as possible, trying to write their first grant, get some publications out, et cetera. You also have to make sure you end up in a position where you have some freedom to do research (like a research residency), and those spots are easier to get if you're an MD/PhD.

Of course, that's not to say there are no opportunities to do research as a medical student or that it's totally hopeless; as one of the other posters pointed out, many MD-onlies have perfectly successful research careers. However, what I discovered when doing my own application research was that MD-only research tends to be much more clinically-focused rather than basic. I think it is a lot harder to start in basic research as an MD-only doctor, because your job comprises clinical work. Again, not impossible, but a distinct advantage to having a PhD.


Best of luck to you! The application process is a stress festival, but it'll all be over before you know it.
 
I posted some of this in another thread, but I think some of the same points apply here.

I am starting as an M1 this year in an MD/PhD program, and I had some of the same feelings as the OP does. I knew in my heart that I really wanted to do the MD/PhD, but articulating that was hard. It just seemed like the perfect fit for me. I was, however, sort of a non-traditional student; I did all my research in clinical psychology and my extra-curriculars and my minor all involved creative writing and publishing. I also took a year off from school and learned to teach and do Zen meditation. So, grain of salt I guess.

The answer I ultimately came up with was this: My passion is research, but that I want my work to really have clinical applications. I knew I wouldn't be content just working in a lab, helping people abstractly. I wanted to really see the people who have the illnesses I'm researching and see the human side, learn about what their experience is like and what their needs are. And to heal them and work with them, directly, in a more immediate sense. Research and practice are two sides of the same coin to me; both inform one another, both are ways that I can help to heal. (Of course, I had clinical experience and LOVED it and wanted more of it--that should hopefully be true of you as well.)

The tricky thing for interviews is that you have to be able to convince your interviewers that you really want and need BOTH degrees. It is a tricky fence to walk. IMO the more important thing is to make sure they know that you're interested in and dedicated to patient care and clinical work (i.e., you're not just looking for a free MD). I say that because as any good researcher, it should be a piece of cake to talk about your research interests and convince them that you love research--it is a lot harder to convince them that you really want to do patient care. The key thing is to let them know that you want your research to really be clinically relevant, and that you think patient care will be both personally rewarding, and will inform your research.

On the PhD side of things, here is a list I came up with of good reasons to pursue the PhD instead of the MD-only route for research:

1. Funding. All good MD/PhD programs give you free tuition for both degrees, as well as a stipend. This is a real boon if you are considering a research-heavy career, because it is a pay cut vs. being a clinical doctor. The less clinical hours you take, in general, the less money you make. Grants help cover you salary, but they are not generous. So if you end up doing a lot of research, the burden of debt is less manageable.

(however, look into the NIH Loan Repayment Programs, which will help you a lot with your debt if you do research)

2. Contacts. One of the biggest skills in academic research is networking. Medical school will give you few, if any, opportunities to do things like go to research conferences and present papers. Which brings me to:

3. Publishing. Part of what you do in graduate school is do a bunch of research and try to get it published. A successful student should have at least a handful of first-author publications after four or five years, which are necessary for:

4. Grant-writing. As a researcher you pay your own way by writing grants, and it's easier to get grant money if you're already published or have pilot work demonstrating your ability as a researcher and the feasibility of your proposed project.

So in other words, what you get from grad school is four or five sheltered years to really learn the ins and outs of research, to learn to write papers and grants, and to meet the people in your field who will help you get ahead. This puts you at a really distinct advantage over MD-only researchers, at least at the beginning of your research career; MD-only researchers, from what I can tell, have to hit residency or practice and immediately hustle as much as possible, trying to write their first grant, get some publications out, et cetera. You also have to make sure you end up in a position where you have some freedom to do research (like a research residency), and those spots are easier to get if you're an MD/PhD.

Of course, that's not to say there are no opportunities to do research as a medical student or that it's totally hopeless; as one of the other posters pointed out, many MD-onlies have perfectly successful research careers. However, what I discovered when doing my own application research was that MD-only research tends to be much more clinically-focused rather than basic. I think it is a lot harder to start in basic research as an MD-only doctor, because your job comprises clinical work. Again, not impossible, but a distinct advantage to having a PhD.


Best of luck to you! The application process is a stress festival, but it'll all be over before you know it.

+1...very neatly summarized.
 
NSLhobbit, I think your reasons are fine. Frankly, there aren't that many reasons for choosing this pathway. So of course they're going to sound typical. It beats coming up with unique, but inappropriate reasons for doing the MD/PhD program :laugh:

I'd like to interject my thoughts on freakusmcgee's post. I consider myself currently neutral on the MD/PhD vs. MD-only to research decision, though I was very pro-MD/PhD for many years. I find it a bit freaky how many of my senior MD/PhD student peers are now very down on MD/PhD, especially after being very pro-MD/PhD at the beginning. But... They don't post, and when they do they tone it down versus what I get in private.

(however, look into the NIH Loan Repayment Programs, which will help you a lot with your debt if you do research)

I'm very distrustful of the LRPs. If you read the fine print, they are geared for clinical research, and fairly narrowly defined at that. Once and awhile a grant reviewer will stick their head in and say "it's really not as bad as it looks!". But, who knows what it will be like when you go to get your loans paid back. Will you be one of the people who doesn't make the cut for the grant? Will your research not be of the type the LRP funds? I wouldn't count on LRP.

A successful student should have at least a handful of first-author publications after four or five years, which are necessary for:

What is a handful? Let's say 3 or more. By this benchmark I'd say at least half of my class is unsuccessful.

4. Grant-writing. As a researcher you pay your own way by writing grants, and it's easier to get grant money if you're already published or have pilot work demonstrating your ability as a researcher and the feasibility of your proposed project.

There are very few grants MD/PhDs are eligible for. A lot of people, including myself and several members of this forum, have NINDS F30 grants. MD/PhDs as of recently are no longer eligible.

MD-only researchers, from what I can tell, have to hit residency or practice and immediately hustle as much as possible, trying to write their first grant, get some publications out, et cetera.

I think this isn't a great description of the MD-only research pathway. Generally, the residency, but more commonly the fellowship, has extensive time built in for research. Yes during this time you will by trying to get publications and your first grants. But this is no different from what we're trying to do in grad school and then later in our own fellowships.

You also have to make sure you end up in a position where you have some freedom to do research (like a research residency), and those spots are easier to get if you're an MD/PhD.

This is true. I will definitely grant that if you're looking to fast-track or build research into your residency, it's easier to get those spots as MD/PhD. However, there are a lot of 5-year MD/MS or MD+1 year of research students competing for those spots these days as well. Medical school performance is still extremely important. I brought up on another thread how a MD/PhD friend of mine with a pretty competitive app didn't match to a research-track spot and got beat out here by a MD-only student with 1 year of research because of better clinical grades and because their research was in their specialty of interest while the PhD's residency was in more general cell bio type work (of which i estimate ~90% of MD/PhDs do).

However, what I discovered when doing my own application research was that MD-only research tends to be much more clinically-focused rather than basic. I think it is a lot harder to start in basic research as an MD-only doctor, because your job comprises clinical work. Again, not impossible, but a distinct advantage to having a PhD.

One thing pre-meds don't necessarily recognize is that ~50% of all MD/PhDs do not have majority research careers. Of the 50% that do, a substantial, though unmeasured, fraction do clinical/translational research. You only get to meet the successful basic science PIs. You don't get to meet the failures, the people who decided it wasn't worth it, or the many who do clinical research. Even the MD/PhD students typically don't meet these people until they are 3rd and 4th years. I didn't realize going into my lab that every MD/PhD graduate over the previous 10 years ended up in private practice! This gives pre-meds skewed perspective on reality. Your job, if you do a residency, is always going to comprise clinical work unless you give that up entirely. It's not *easier* to do basic science research just because you have a PhD.

In the end, you need the research training somewhere. MD/PhDs get research training up front, and then a bit more in fellowship. MD-only students typically get a bit up front (year out in med school) then the bulk of the training in fellowship. To me the main advantage to MD/PhD over MD for research is the financial aspect. The main disadvantage is you're committing yourself to a pathway you have no clue about until you're much older than when you started. But that's okay, unlike NHSC/IHS or military, you at least can drop the PhD (MSTP programs) or not do research, and there's no penalty.
 
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To me the main advantage to MD/PhD over MD for research is the financial aspect. The main disadvantage is you're committing yourself to a pathway you have no clue about until you're much older than when you started. But that's okay, unlike NHSC/IHS or military, you at least can drop the PhD (MSTP programs) or not do research, and there's no penalty.

Unfortunately, the only pro you mention is the one we can't talk about! Thanks for the great, informative post, but not so much for the dismal attitude... :confused:

(Not dismal enough to dissuade me, though! :laugh:)
 
I fail to see what is dismal about my post :confused:

I definitely did mention money in some of my interviews. I didn't offer it in the "why MD/PhD?" response, but if pushed far enough it was reason #3.
 
I encourage you to pursue the dual degree if that is what you want to do. I wish I had done the same thing! I found myself in your position, and chose to go for the Ph.D. Now that I'm a few years older and have more confidence and maturity, I wish I would have done the MD/PhD route. I love research, but I miss the patient interaction, just like you mentioned OP. Now that I'm finishing my dissertation, I'm having to start over for medical school. I might have saved a few years and A LOT of money if I went with my gut all along.
Go for it!
 
Would you mind elaborating on this point?

The NIH F30 (individual pre-doctoral MD/PhD) funding mechanism is supported by very few institutes, much fewer than the F31 (pre-doctoral PhD). Many grants that PhD students talk about do not fund MD/PhD students.

I looked this up for NSF recently:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9642771&postcount=13

If you look up a grant and it does not mention MD/PhD, MD/PhDs may or may not be eligible for funding through that grant only during the PhD years. Different grants are different this way. Some of the larger ones forbid MD/PhD students entirely. I remember HHMI was a big one that stopped funding pre-doctoral MD/PhD students ~10 years ago, but now they no longer fund PhD students either (see: http://www.hhmi.org/grants/individuals/).
 
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The DOD still funds MD/PhDs both through the NDSEG and individual research offices also. Though you have to take the GRE...
 
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