Why Calculus?

[Robert Courville]

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Hello all,

I am in a Community college in southern California with hopes of transferring to a respectable UC and continuing on to medical school after that. My current GPA is a modest 3.42 with the following classes completed:
3 Biology classes with two A's and one B
1 year of General Chem with B in first semester, A in second semester
1 year of Organic Chem with two A's
1 precalc class : C
Currently in first semester calc with a grade of : D !

I enjoy studying my bio and chem classes so much that excelling in them usually is not the problem for me. The two B's I got were really close to A's. With that being said, I am failing in MATH with no foreseeable hope. It is the one subject I can't learn conceptually through and through, and I have a genuine hate for it. I have tried to get myself to work hard this semester to do well in my first semester of Calc but I have a teacher who used to be an engineer and should have stayed that way. She hates teaching. Pretty much the whole class teaches themselves. I can't do it. I have zero idea what I am going to do moving forward, Calc is important for both Physics and the MCAT. Teaching myself will not get any easier at the university level, given a university actually takes me without a good calc grade or with a W in it. Has anybody else had this problem? Any comments are welcome. RANT OVER.

Sincerely,
Discouraged Pre-Med student

 

[solitarius]

Is there a question in here somewhere?

First, you really shouldn't use your real name for an SDN account. You will be tempted to write some snarky comments, and you don't want any Internet forensic analysis tracing things back to you.

Second, you should've retaken pre-calc before attempting calculus. Math is cumulative, so your foundation is weak.

Third, calculus is a requirement for the same reason that o-chemistry and physics are requirements. The relevance to medicine is minimal, but they are there to weed out the weak.

Fourth, calculus is easy if you realize that it is built around two concepts: derivatives and integrals. You just multiply the coefficient by the variable's exponent and reduce the exponent by one power for derivatives; you reverse for integrals.

 

[SN12357]

Is there a question in here somewhere?

First, you really shouldn't use your real name for an SDN account. You will be tempted to write some snarky comments, and you don't want any Internet forensic analysis tracing things back to you.

Second, you should've retaken pre-calc before attempting calculus. Math is cumulative, so your foundation is weak.

Third, calculus is a requirement for the same reason that o-chemistry and physics are requirements. The relevance to medicine is minimal, but they are there to weed out the weak.

Fourth, calculus is easy if you realize that it is built around two concepts: derivatives and integrals. You just multiply the coefficient by the variable's exponent and reduce the exponent by one power for derivatives; you reverse for integrals.

If that's your summary of calculus, you have no call to be condescending to someone struggling with it.

OP, lots of people struggle with math and still become doctors. I would advise you to withdraw from your current calculus class, retake precalculus (try and seek out an instructor known for teaching well) and proceed to calculus only when you have the basics truly set. There are lots of online resources to help you, and your school should have learning centers/tutors available. Take advantage of all available resources.

Also, calc is NOT important for pre-med physics or the MCAT. Trig and algebra are, and I believe with the new MCAT basic statistics will be as well.

 

[sjv]

Develops problem solving/critical thinking skills.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

Withdraw from calculus now if you still can. It is a requirement at quite a few med schools. Virginia Tech is the only one I can think of offhand, but I know there are more. If you can retake calc later on you will be less limited if you apply to MD schools.

I should warn you that this won't be the last time you have a professor who can't teach well in undergrad, and the problem does NOT go away in med school. You will encounter professors who are not able to speak English clearly, professors who couldn't care less if you learn or not, and guest lecturers who got dragged into the classroom away from their clinical or research jobs. This does not change the fact that you are responsible for learning the course material. Use textbooks, Kahn Academy, old class notes, or any other resources that work well for you. Finding excuses for bad grades will do you no good at all.

 

[solitarius]

If that's your summary of calculus, you have no call to be condescending to someone struggling with it.

That is what calculus is all about, derivatives and integrals.

 

[SN12357]

That is what calculus is all about, derivatives and integrals.

Indeed. Much like chemistry is about atoms. But the method you so cavalierly quoted is essentially a shortcut for determining the derivative or integral for a very narrow, very specific set of equations with a limited number of variables (one). It does as much good to someone frustrated with calculus as telling them to pass chemistry they just need to know hydrogen has one proton. It won't help anything and the sole point of saying it is to look like you know more than they do.

This is the nontrad forum. It's supposed to be less prone to the sort of petty, sneering condescension so common in pre-allo. Lots of people struggle with calculus, it's often taught terribly in college, and most doctors are TERRIBLE at math. There's no reason to immediately jump down the throat of someone venting a little.

 

[solitarius]

There's no reason to immediately jump down the throat of someone venting a little.

First of all, I don't think I jumped down his throat. I just laid out my perspective. Sure, there are variations in solving various forms of derivatives and integrals, but most of the problems revolve around this approach. I thought I was just crystallizing the main point. If you'd like, I can expound further on derivatives and integrals. But since there are far better resources on the Internet than my potential SDN post, I'd rather not.

Second, perhaps you took exception to my comments about the function of these pre-reqs: which is to weed out people. I don't make the rules, but that is their intent.

 

[SN12357]

First of all, I don't think I jumped down his throat. I just laid out my perspective. Sure, there are variations in solving various forms of derivatives and integrals, but most of the problems revolve around this approach. I thought I was just crystallizing the main point. If you'd like, I can expound further on derivatives and integrals. But since there are far better resources on the Internet than my potential SDN post, I'd rather not.

Second, perhaps you took exception to my comments about the function of these pre-reqs: which is to weed out people. I don't make the rules, but that is their intent.

Most of the problems revolve around that approach? Uh, no. Not if you take a calculus class where the concepts and applications are actually taught, as opposed to a neutered class where you are taught by means of poorly connected rules memorization.

I certainly didn't take exception to your comments about prereqs being for weed out; I'm as big a proponent of that as you can find. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't get second chances, or that every class is fairly taught. Calculus is such a common thing to struggle with it's completely inappropriately negative to tell someone they shouldn't even bother trying to get into medical school if they're having problems with it the first time they try.

 

[wholeheartedly]

OP, calc isn't required for the MCAT. It also isn't required for all medical schools. Some will let you use statistics instead. Check the pre req requirements for the schools you are interested in. Physics based calc isn't required for the MCAT. However, depending on the degree you are going for, it might be required for your major. If you need it, it might be better to take it later.

I'd agree with Chip and try to withdraw if you can. Chip's also right in that you're always going to have crappy professors. It really sucks but its the reality in a lot of cases. The good thing now is that you can supplement with some good free content online these days. Khan Academy teaches beginner to advanced calculus. If you wind up taking it again I would supplement with something like that.

 

[solitarius]

Calculus is such a common thing to struggle with it's completely inappropriately negative to tell someone they shouldn't even bother trying to get into medical school if they're having problems with it the first time they try.

I don't want to make this thread about me vs. you. After all, it is the OP's concerns. I never said anywhere that he should forget about medical school in my post, so your comment is way out of line.

Most of the problems revolve around that approach? Uh, no.

What I did try to do was conceptualize derivatives and integrands. Having taken multivariable calculus myself, I can see where you're coming from. However, he is taking a first-semester calculus course at a community college... So yes, most of the problems do revolve around this approach. Not all, but enough. Regardless, I'm done arguing with you.

 

[vc7777]

Why hello folks just a friendly reminder to keep this the most civil of subforums on SDN. I would suggest using the"ignore" function ...but since the upgrade...I'm not sure it has been implemented yet?

Sent from my phone

 

[gyngyn]

Calculus is the least important math class you are likely to take. Withdraw now(if you can). Statistics is much more useful if a math class is required. Calculus is not on the MCAT and fewer and fewer schools require it.

 

[Robert Courville]

Calculus is the least important math class you are likely to take. Withdraw now(if you can). Statistics is much more useful if a math class is required. Calculus is not on the MCAT and fewer and fewer schools require it.

All of my premed advisers have told me MCAT is on the calculus through Physics. Is it really just algebra based physics on there? I can still withdraw until next Tuesday, I am just worried about what the W could potentially do to my transfer status next fall. It seems like a lot of universities are adamant in this requirement. I have also been thinking about switching majors to journalism, and simply taking whatever other premed requirements I would need. I have a deep passion for journalism, I love it nearly as much as I love Bio and Chem. When I started my college career I was told you must stick to a science GPA to go to medical school, now I am finding out it is quite the contrary. So many decisions to make!!

 

[sazerac]

Fourth, calculus is easy if you realize that it is built around two concepts: derivatives and integrals. You just multiply the coefficient by the variable's exponent and reduce the exponent by one power for derivatives; you reverse for integrals.

Plus a constant.

 

[SN12357]

All of my premed advisers have told me MCAT is on the calculus through Physics. Is it really just algebra based physics on there? I can still withdraw until next Tuesday, I am just worried about what the W could potentially do to my transfer status next fall. It seems like a lot of universities are adamant in this requirement. I have also been thinking about switching majors to journalism, and simply taking whatever other premed requirements I would need. I have a deep passion for journalism, I love it nearly as much as I love Bio and Chem. When I started my college career I was told you must stick to a science GPA to go to medical school, now I am finding out it is quite the contrary. So many decisions to make!!

Calculus based physics is definitely not on the MCAT, nor going to be; your advisers are simply wrong. The physics on the MCAT requires algebra and basic trig only.

Most med schools do still require one semester of calculus (it seems like most are moving to one year of college math, with one semester of calculus + one semester of stats being the norm). But it is ok to withdraw and try again (caveat--this is with regard to med school. no idea how it will affect your transfer status). Lots of stories of people succeeding with retakes around here.

Overall you should major in what you enjoy. It doesn't have to be a science. However, if you really dread your science classes, that's probably not a good sign in terms of how you will feel about all the content you have to learn in med school. But if you enjoy both, it doesn't matter much which is your official major as long as you do well in the med school prereqs.

 

[gyngyn]

All of my premed advisers have told me MCAT is on the calculus through Physics. Is it really just algebra based physics on there? I can still withdraw until next Tuesday, I am just worried about what the W could potentially do to my transfer status next fall. It seems like a lot of universities are adamant in this requirement. I have also been thinking about switching majors to journalism, and simply taking whatever other premed requirements I would need. I have a deep passion for journalism, I love it nearly as much as I love Bio and Chem. When I started my college career I was told you must stick to a science GPA to go to medical school, now I am finding out it is quite the contrary. So many decisions to make!!

I can only assure you that algebra based physics is more than enough. It has been for at least the last 35 years. A single W is not a big deal. If you are only interested in schools with a calculus requirement, then you must take it. At the AAMC meeting in Philadelphia this year all the admissions deans will be discussing the archaic "requirements" that are undergoing revision in the face of changing needs and the observation that requirements are a rudimentary way to assure that important skills have been acquired.

 

[Robert Courville]

Calculus based physics is definitely not on the MCAT, nor going to be; your advisers are simply wrong. The physics on the MCAT requires algebra and basic trig only.

Most med schools do still require one semester of calculus (it seems like most are moving to one year of college math, with one semester of calculus + one semester of stats being the norm). But it is ok to withdraw and try again (caveat--this is with regard to med school. no idea how it will affect your transfer status). Lots of stories of people succeeding with retakes around here.

Overall you should major in what you enjoy. It doesn't have to be a science. However, if you really dread your science classes, that's probably not a good sign in terms of how you will feel about all the content you have to learn in med school. But if you enjoy both, it doesn't matter much which is your official major as long as you do well in the med school prereqs.

I enjoy my science classes the most! I know and believe strongly in my science abilities, that is not the problem. Its my comprehension ability in math. I was passed through a lot and babied when I was in K-12 education and I believe it has a lot to do with my poor critical thinking skills in calc. I have three years of community college under my belt, I am scared to change my major with so much work already put in.

 

[Drogo]

If you have a D and see no way of pulling at least a B+, I would withdraw and ask the prof if it's still ok to go attend class. Calculus is not that difficult, the issue lies in that a student really underestimates how much time they have to put into calculus. If you understand the big picture in calc which is all about change, smallest change in y over x (dy/dx, derivatives, acceleration/velocity/position physics!), rate of change (optimization problems); the importance of limits when applied to functions or physics; integrals which can help you find itty bitty changes across an area (area from a to b under a curve for example, friction in physics is also a good example). I am by no means the greatest when it comes to math, but I squeezed out an -A in calc 1. I pretty much did every supplemental problem set, used various tutors and used online videos from patrickjmt (youtube him he's great!). Never did I think that I would find myself tutoring other students in calculus.

A student tends to look at math and make it a sworn enemy, but never stops to think about it just being like a long hike up a mountain, which upon reaching the top the student can look down and marvel at a nice view of all the hard work accomplished.

Calculus is not absolutely necessary for the MCAT and physics. I find college algebra/trig based physics without calculus a bit silly though. As my calc 1 prof put it best, Calculus will definitely help you think 'better' about things. 🙂

 

[wholeheartedly]

An unfortunate thing that you'll discover around here is that quite a few premed advisors seem to be woefully ignorant of what it actually takes to get into medical school. It's like they have this preconceived notion of what they think it takes but don't bother to do their homework and verify or update their info.

Schools list their pre reqs so you can go to a bunch of med school websites and see what the actual reqs are. The MCAT site will tell you what subject areas are covered in pretty good detail.

https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/preparing/

As far as majors go, I always suggest to do something you enjoy and thus are likely to do well in that can also lead to gainful employment if life happens and your med school plans change or get delayed.

 

[occams_razor]

All of my premed advisers have told me MCAT is on the calculus through Physics. Is it really just algebra based physics on there? I can still withdraw until next Tuesday, I am just worried about what the W could potentially do to my transfer status next fall. It seems like a lot of universities are adamant in this requirement. I have also been thinking about switching majors to journalism, and simply taking whatever other premed requirements I would need. I have a deep passion for journalism, I love it nearly as much as I love Bio and Chem. When I started my college career I was told you must stick to a science GPA to go to medical school, now I am finding out it is quite the contrary. So many decisions to make!!

Your premed advisers are wrong. There is no calculus on the MCAT and very few schools require calculus. if schools have a math requirement you can often use statistics (which may become a requirement as it is being added to the new MCAT)

 

[DHB4077]

OP, if it helps, I always found it easy to understand Calculus using pictures (graphs) of the equations I was working with. That carried me well through Calculus I, Calculus II, and Vector Calculus. If that doesn't help, I concur that withdrawing to form a more solid foundation via precalculus is probably your best option (math is cumulative, like Organic Chemistry, Physics, et cetera).

 

[acceptedMD18]

OP, Calculus sucks. I got a B- in Calc 1 and withdrew TWICE from Calc 2 (never did actually take it). But guess what? The PS section on the MCAT doesn't have any math remotely as brutal as calculus. Furthermore, I've already been accepted to 2 top tier schools. So don't worry about calc.

 

[Robert Courville]

OP, Calculus sucks. I got a B- in Calc 1 and withdrew TWICE from Calc 2 (never did actually take it). But guess what? The PS section on the MCAT doesn't have any math remotely as brutal as calculus. Furthermore, I've already been accepted to 2 top tier schools. So don't worry about calc.

Its definitely encouraging to know that such high level math is not required on the MCAT! I plan on taking statistics and probably a calculus for life sciences once I get to a university. I have heard from numerous people that this is a much better option for us medical profession people. It is also exciting to know that you got accepted to two top tier medical schools with 2 W's on your transcript! I was scared to take one of them in the first place. Congratulations on your admission and best of luck to you while studying!