Why can't schools reach a common conclusion?

[Qnesp]

Why is it, that as an international dentist wishing to do an advanced standing program in the US, I find myself amongst people from other fields of study who are so sure about their course of application, and I am not?

One school says NBDE, one school doesn't, one school says ADAT, then the course director says that it isn't true over the phone. WHY CAN'T DENTAL SCHOOLS STICK THE KNIFE ON IT LIKE ALL OTHER SPECIALTIES DO? People who study for the USMLE, GMAT etc, KNOW that all they have to do is study hard and score well, but as for a dental student, there's the "am I studying for the right exam??/How many schools/programs will require this exam? And how many won't?" question.

I mean, it is very rediculous, to the extent that 2 programs in the SAME UNIVERSITY have different requirements. For example, endodontics in one university requires ADAT, while prosthodontics in the same university doesn't. Some programs have their webpage requiring ADAT and/or NBDEs while over the phone they say that thay do not. Don't the directors of these programs of the SAME university confer with one another, AT ANYTIME, about what they need of their applicants AS A SCHOOL? Why is it like this? Why couldn't it be standard?

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[Destiny11]

Why is it, that as an international dentist wishing to do an advanced standing program in the US, I find myself amongst people from other fields of study who are so sure about their course of application, and I am not?

One school says NBDE, one school doesn't, one school says ADAT, then the course director says that it isn't true over the phone. WHY CAN'T DENTAL SCHOOLS STICK THE KNIFE ON IT LIKE ALL OTHER SPECIALTIES DO? People who study for the USMLE, GMAT etc, KNOW that all they have to do is study hard and score well, but as for a dental student, there's the "am I studying for the right exam??/How many schools/programs will require this exam? And how many won't?" question.

I mean, it is very rediculous, to the extent that 2 programs in the SAME UNIVERSITY have different requirements. For example, endodontics in UMC requires ADAT, while prosthodontics in UMC doesn't. Some programs have their webpage requiring ADAT and/or NBDEs while over the phone they say that thay do not. Don't the directors of these programs of the SAME university confer with one another, AT ANYTIME, about what they need of their applicants AS A SCHOOL? Why is it like this? Why couldn't it be standard?

I don't know why you are complaining. All US dentists have to take the DAT, NBDE, and eventually the ADAT. These exams are meant to evaluate various applicants, and more competitive programs/specialties require more exams. Nothing is standard even after you graduate. Every state have different licensing requirements as well.

 

[Qnesp]

I am not complaining about the tests, but rather of the accuracy of their relevance. I have passed both my NBDEs, but am now faced with the ADAT, and schools can't seem to have a straight answer to their requirements.

I am currently preparing for the ADAT, but it is the confusion and uncertainty by US schools that I am finding to be unsettling.

Medschool residencies are also as competitive, but I do not see medschool students struggling with the same level of program-to-program uncertainty that I am. All what they are worried of is to study for the USMLE, score well, and get in. Whereas I have friends of mine who have gained admission to some reputable dental programs with merely NOTHING but a good TOEFL score.


That and I am not seeking licensure, but rather just a MS degree.

 

[CanaDMD]

I know the process can be confusing and overwhelming. Just keep your head up and carry on, you're on the right track.

Every school is in fact different, so figure out where you want to apply and to what, and complete their requirements.

The ADAT has a lot of uncertainty with it mostly because it's new. Give it 5(-10) years to be more standardized.

 

[PaxRoma]

getting rid of the numeric NBDE is probably the worst idea the ADA have ever made. Why in the world is GRE applicable to orthodontic?
CBSE is a much better written exam and I sure do hope OMS does not go back to using these ridiculous exams.

 

[vellnueve]

Why is it, that as an international dentist wishing to do an advanced standing program in the US, I find myself amongst people from other fields of study who are so sure about their course of application, and I am not?

One school says NBDE, one school doesn't, one school says ADAT, then the course director says that it isn't true over the phone. WHY CAN'T DENTAL SCHOOLS STICK THE KNIFE ON IT LIKE ALL OTHER SPECIALTIES DO? People who study for the USMLE, GMAT etc, KNOW that all they have to do is study hard and score well, but as for a dental student, there's the "am I studying for the right exam??/How many schools/programs will require this exam? And how many won't?" question.

I mean, it is very rediculous, to the extent that 2 programs in the SAME UNIVERSITY have different requirements. For example, endodontics in UMC requires ADAT, while prosthodontics in UMC doesn't. Some programs have their webpage requiring ADAT and/or NBDEs while over the phone they say that thay do not. Don't the directors of these programs of the SAME university confer with one another, AT ANYTIME, about what they need of their applicants AS A SCHOOL? Why is it like this? Why couldn't it be standard?

Hate to say it, but if you can't stand the application process, you may not be cut out for residency.

Just take the damned tests. The NBDE will eventually be required if you want to be licensed in the US, and the ADAT is going to be required by enough programs that you should take it regardless.

 

[Qnesp]

In which part of my post did I mention that I am seeking licensure? Also, from where in my post did you infer that I am not studying/lacking will? I suggest you reread it, for its the lack of standardization, and the equivocal nature of the process that I was pointing to, rather than the studying itself.


Some people sadly seem to take joy in discouraging people at any given chance, even if it were out of context.

 

[Qnesp]

Hate to say it, but if you can't stand the application process, you may not be cut out for residency.

Just take the damned tests. The NBDE will eventually be required if you want to be licensed in the US, and the ADAT is going to be required by enough programs that you should take it regardless.

I replied above.

 

[Qnesp]

I know the process can be confusing and overwhelming. Just keep your head up and carry on, you're on the right track.

Every school is in fact different, so figure out where you want to apply and to what, and complete their requirements.

The ADAT has a lot of uncertainty with it mostly because it's new. Give it 5(-10) years to be more standardized.

That is true. If I were to put this into a metaphor, it'd be like trying to give someone what they want, when hey do not know what they want, and paradoxically, they expect you to know what you want.


Challenges like these are difficult, but I'll have to do it, anyways. I thank you for your kind words

 

[CanaDMD]

That is true. If I were to put this into a metaphor, it'd be like trying to give someone what they want, when hey do not know what they want, and paradoxically, they expect you to know what you want.


Challenges like these are difficult, but I'll have to do it, anyways. I thank you for your kind words

No worries! I'm really uncertain why the other replies have been so hostile. Hopefully you don't take these other replies too seriously, I'm not sure how people are infering such big conclusions from a forum post, haha!

 

[LaughingGas]

Hate to say it, but if you can't stand the application process, you may not be cut out for residency.

lol. really? So you are ok that they had a perfectly fine tests (Part 1 and 2) to assess an applicant for residency programs, switched to P/F and instead of going back to numerical, they make another test just so not only students 1) have another exam to prepare for 2) pay additional fees for?

 

[Qnesp]

lol. really? So you are ok that they had a perfectly fine tests (Part 1 and 2) to assess an applicant for residency programs, switched to P/F and instead of going back to numerical, they make another test just so not only students 1) have another exam to prepare for 2) pay additional fees for?

While that is true, and part of the grand problem, there is also the inherent lack of consistency in the industry. The ADA claims to have reached a consensus with course directors on the justified means to convey this test. On the other hand, program directors themselves do not seem to be sure what kind of advice should they be giving to their prospective students.


While the challenge of studying is still existent, why add more stress to it by rendering the student lost in their own struggle. Yes, we do know it's competitive, and the part of us that want to persevere and take the challenge are more than willing to.

What I find to be perplexing is to have the will but not the way. For those who claim that I do not withhold the attitude of a potential applicant, my initial post was addressing the frustration and what kind of emotional impact this notion is having on not only me, but many students out there that I know I am speaking on the behalf of.

Why couldn't things be standardized like the USMLE, or the GMAT, or any other test? These fields are as equally as competitive as dentistry, if not even sometimes more. However, the difference with them is that their worries lie in the correct place, where all they look for is to actually STUDY and try to score well. Dental schools, on the other hand, whether deliberately or not, seem to not be sure about what it is exactly that they want. I am all in for the competition, but what IS the factor that determines this competition?


I see programs writing "NBDE and/or the ADAT will be required". While this "and/or" could have been absentmindedly written, it wasn't in the mind of the person who wrote it, what kind of impact would it have on an applicant whose worries have been revolving around that specific program for the past year or so. Mind you, some other programs don't even write anything besides the required TOEFL score. Why couldn't they standardize it? Why is it so difficult for them to just come to a consensus, and allow applicants to know which aspect they should hone their preparation for?


We need a this = that

Not a this = this or that = that or that = this or this = that, or maybe even nothing = everything!

 

[The OMFS]

What MS program are you pursuing? Can I assume that it is Pros?

 

[Qnesp]

What MS program are you pursuing? Can I assume that it is Pros?

No, actually, it's endodontics. How is this conducive to the discussion?

 

[The OMFS]

Not trying to be hostile or anything, but I think you already have your answer. You mentioned in your original post that one endodontic program that you looked at asks for the ADAT. Are you not applying to that program to increase you chances of acceptance? Plus, since you took the NBDE as pass/fail (which doesn't measure anything because those exams are too easy), I think there's more reason for you to take the ADAT.

 

[Qnesp]

Not trying to be hostile or anything, but I think you already have your answer. You mentioned in your original post that one endodontic program that you looked at asks for the ADAT. Are you not applying to that program to increase you chances of acceptance? Plus, since you took the NBDE as pass/fail (which doesn't measure anything because those exams are too easy), I think there's more reason for you to take the ADAT.

Again, my concern was about the general way in which the whole system is conveyed when compared to other fields, not about the program's requirements for admission.

I reread my post multiple times, perhaps subjectively, and failed to see any window from which you, or the people above with the same rhetoric, have inferred that I am complaining about having to study?

To reiterate, I am addressing (or complaining) about how inconsistent and equivocal schools are in general. I am currently studying for the ADAT, as I have been for the past 2 months. I haven't complained, nor am I right now. All my post was about is to ask why schools can't reach a common consensus on standardizing the application process. Since studying for the exam isn't easy, why even make it harder by adding uncertainty to the mix?


Perseverance is inevitably accompanied by worry. As a matter of fact, I believe that perseverance is void without worry. With that in mind, the inconsistency of the system adds unneeded worry (to me and perhaps everyone else) that can easily be abolished by standardizing the process.


It's not only an inconsistency from one school to the other, but also from one program to the other of the same school. So, in reply to your answer, I am not speaking on the selfish behalf of my application alone, but as an attempt to actually address something that I think needs to change for the betterment of everyone's admission experience, not only towards my endodontics program application.

I think I could not be more clear than this.


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[Qnesp]

My post has been taken out of context, by evidence of the replies I've been getting. Maybe partly because it's hard to understand context from text, and partly because people have read it with excessive unneeded scrutiny, or perhaps skimmed through it with disregard to its intent.


I posted this thread on this forum to hopefully have this message get across to someone it may concern. An applicant like myself, a current resident, or a program director. I've met people in real life with similar concerns, and also have connected with many people over Facebook, too, whose worries are in line with my own, and so I came here to hopefully get the message out there. To play my role, no matter how small, in stating an understated issue that I think needs to be emphasized.




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[setdoc7]

lol. really? So you are ok that they had a perfectly fine tests (Part 1 and 2) to assess an applicant for residency programs, switched to P/F and instead of going back to numerical, they make another test just so not only students 1) have another exam to prepare for 2) pay additional fees for?

The NBDE 1&2 was not a perfectly fine test. It was a comprehensive evaluation/assessment test to be used by state boards to evaluate competency for licensure. It was not a predictive test (i.e. DAT, LSAT, MCAT) which is used to predict the success of an applicant for a prospective program of study. PD's used the NBDE because no other test existed. Now one does. It's that simple.

Because it is a new exam, there will probably be some confusion in the beginning. Over time, this too will work itself out.

 

[Qnesp]

The NBDE 1&2 was not a perfectly fine test. It was a comprehensive evaluation/assessment test to be used by state boards to evaluate competency for licensure. It was not a predictive test (i.e. DAT, LSAT, MCAT) which is used to predict the success of an applicant for a prospective program of study. PD's used the NBDE because no other test existed. Now one does. It's that simple.

Because it is a new exam, there will probably be some confusion in the beginning. Over time, this too will work itself out.

Let's hope they do not P/F this one too.

 

[oralcare123]

The answer is easy and you know it already - people who make requirements are not at all interested in creating an easy application process

 

[Qnesp]

The answer is easy and you know it already - people who make requirements are not at all interested in creating an easy application process

So instead of making challenging tests, they do it by being vague? When has that ever proven to work?

It isn't a good enough reason, I'm sorry. I think it's a lack of organizational management, rather than a deliberate attempt to challenge a student.

All other faculties who are known to have competitive admission standards. Are they as vague? No
Are they AS competitive? Well, as I said before, some might even be more so. This level of "easiness" is not set by not being clear to applicants about what standards they're expected to have to be potential candidates.

Medschool processes are clear, but are they easy? Well, from my personal interactions with medschool students, I can tell you that they are not, but at least they know what they're required to do.

This level of superfluous difficulty, I think, is one that most of us can do without.


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[setdoc7]

The answer is easy and you know it already - people who make requirements are not at all interested in creating an easy application process

That is far from the truth, as I am one of those people.
First, the med school process has been in place a very long time, therefore it is tested and working for the time being.
The dental school process is clearly in transition for post graduate study for a number of reasons, and we are just now catching up. Please try and understand that change/improvement/pathways do not occur overnight in any profession, and are cumbersome in the beginning.
The new exam was constructed in an effort to give programs a metric to evaluate all student applications from all of the D schools. The med schools have had the USMLE for a long time, and have continued to use it, as a metric to evaluate applicants who are from traditional graded schools and P/F schools. We as dental educators have not had a metric for many years.
IMHO it will be an unbiased head to head evaluation tool which will allow any student from any school to be equally competitive. In my opinion, that is really saying something, and is a big step forward.

 

[dmdluffy]

I agree with secdoc7. You happen to be catch graduate education in a transition year. Sure it sucks, but in the long term it'll be better. There are hundreds of people in your shoes that can relate. The difference is, rather than being upset and crying about it, those people go to work and get it done. If you want it to be more organized, it's pretty clear your options. Become involved in organized dentistry and influence change, don't partake at all in the process, or wait for it to get more organized (it is a pilot year after all). I'm sure you just want to vent your frustration but doing so won't make the process better instantaneously. That leaves you with the last option, in the words of Shia Labeouf, "JUST DO IT!".

 

[Qnesp]

I agree with secdoc7. You happen to be catch graduate education in a transition year. Sure it sucks, but in the long term it'll be better. There are hundreds of people in your shoes that can relate. The difference is, rather than being upset and crying about it, those people go to work and get it done. If you want it to be more organized, it's pretty clear your options. Become involved in organized dentistry and influence change, don't partake at all in the process, or wait for it to get more organized (it is a pilot year after all). I'm sure you just want to vent your frustration but doing so won't make the process better instantaneously. That leaves you with the last option, in the words of Shia Labeouf, "JUST DO IT!".

Lol I get what you're saying. I'm not complaining about the process of doing what I have to do. I'm complaining about what I explained above. ADAT is a good gauge, but it's not standardized as the NBDE once was when it was numbered.


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[dmdluffy]

I'm glad you didn't take offense. I was worried when I wrote it haha. I agree, it definitely isn't standardized yet. It's unfortunate to be the guinea pigs.

 

[oralcare123]

That is far from the truth, as I am one of those people.
First, the med school process has been in place a very long time, therefore it is tested and working for the time being.
The dental school process is clearly in transition for post graduate study for a number of reasons, and we are just now catching up. Please try and understand that change/improvement/pathways do not occur overnight in any profession, and are cumbersome in the beginning.
The new exam was constructed in an effort to give programs a metric to evaluate all student applications from all of the D schools. The med schools have had the USMLE for a long time, and have continued to use it, as a metric to evaluate applicants who are from traditional graded schools and P/F schools. We as dental educators have not had a metric for many years.
IMHO it will be an unbiased head to head evaluation tool which will allow any student from any school to be equally competitive. In my opinion, that is really saying something, and is a big step forward.

The programs I am applying request things, which I would never be able to get. My university does not sent transcripts directly, no one would be sending anything abroad. No one writes letters of recommendation and my Dean is long time dead and new one has no idea who I am.
Programs have no idea what applicants have to go through in order to fulfill the requirements. I heard some indian dentists have to pay an equivalent of a $1000 for their mailed transcript.
So I would insist, that my convenience is programs last worry

 

[The OMFS]

The programs I am applying request things, which I would never be able to get. My university does not sent transcripts directly, no one would be sending anything abroad. No one writes letters of recommendation and my Dean is long time dead and new one has no idea who I am.
Programs have no idea what applicants have to go through in order to fulfill the requirements. I heard some indian dentists have to pay an equivalent of a $1000 for their mailed transcript.
So I would insist, that my convenience is programs last worry

Pretty ridiculous. If you can't even get your transcripts or letters, what documents can you provide to prove that you're worthy of matriculating to a program? Programs need those information to be able to properly evaluate you among hundreds of other applicants. If others have to gone through the same process and have done so successfully, why should programs cater toward you and make a new set of requirements?