why cGPA is usually higher than sGPA

[becomingdoctor]

I am looking at the matriculate data for most COMs and I found out almost (if not all) of their entering classes have higher cGPA than sGPA.
On the national level, the average accepted sGPA is 3.39 and cGPA is 3.51. That leads to a much higher average non-science GPA of 3.60.
This trend is consistent even in MD schools, but the gap is much smaller. I did some quick search on some cali MDs.
UCSF cGPA 3.77, sGPA 3.75
UCI cGPA 3.71 sGPA 3.69
UCSD cGPA 3.74 sGPA 3.71
Does anyone know, why applicants on average have lower sGPA than cGPA?

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[Seth Joo]

I am looking at the matriculate data for most COMs and I found out almost (if not all) of their entering classes have higher cGPA than sGPA.
On the national level, the average accepted sGPA is 3.39 and cGPA is 3.51. That leads to a much higher average non-science GPA of 3.60.
This trend is consistent even in MD schools, but the gap is much smaller. I did some quick search on some cali MDs.
UCSF cGPA 3.77, sGPA 3.75
UCI cGPA 3.71 sGPA 3.69
UCSD cGPA 3.74 sGPA 3.71
Does anyone know, why applicants on average have lower sGPA than cGPA?

That's an easy one, science courses are harder than non science courses, Engineering courses which are applied sciences are even tougher. I had a friend who dual majored in Electrical Engineering and Philosophy, if he majored in EE alone his GPA would be 2.2, if he majored only in Philosophy he would have a perfect 4.0.

 

[costales]

Because science professors are not nice people.

 

[stantheman08]

^these

 

[DrPatriot]

I found organic chemistry and physics to be a lot harder than classes like multicultural understanding. That's why lol

 

[el_duderino]

That's an easy one, science courses are harder than non science courses, Engineering courses which are applied sciences are even tougher. I had a friend who dual majored in Electrical Engineering and Philosophy, if he majored in EE alone his GPA would be 2.2, if he majored only in Philosophy he would have a perfect 4.0.

That an exaggeration, but in general science courses are graded harder than humanities type courses.

 

[Bones 2020]

My native american flute class was not quite as difficult as, say, microbial genetics lol

 

[Tommyguns89]

I have the reverse, my science GPA is significantly higher than my cGPA, but I am a post-bacc who took no science classes during my undergrad degree. I wonder how that will be viewed and which is considered "more important".

 

[samac]

Because underwater basket weaving and horseback riding are a lot easier than developmental biology and organic chemistry.

 

[deleted158872]

not necessarily.
i hated the Psychology classes that my college forced us to take; it's why my cGPA was pulled down.

 

[Seth Joo]

That an exaggeration, but in general science courses are graded harder than humanities type courses.

It is not an exaggeration, a friend of mine had those kinds of grades in undergrad, he works for Google now, drives a Lamborghini.

 

[el_duderino]

It is not an exaggeration, a friend of mine had those kinds of grades in undergrad, he works for Google now, drives a Lamborghini.

Uh...

 

[Seth Joo]

Uh...

Yep he drives a car that is worth more than a DO school tuition and living expenses.

 

[el_duderino]

Honestly.... no idea what we're even talking about anymore.

 

[Goro]

Organic chemistry.

I am looking at the matriculate data for most COMs and I found out almost (if not all) of their entering classes have higher cGPA than sGPA.
On the national level, the average accepted sGPA is 3.39 and cGPA is 3.51. That leads to a much higher average non-science GPA of 3.60.
This trend is consistent even in MD schools, but the gap is much smaller. I did some quick search on some cali MDs.
UCSF cGPA 3.77, sGPA 3.75
UCI cGPA 3.71 sGPA 3.69
UCSD cGPA 3.74 sGPA 3.71
Does anyone know, why applicants on average have lower sGPA than cGPA?

 

[Seth Joo]

Organic chemistry.

I would say Physics is harder, I was the only student who got a solid A in my Modern Physics for Engineers Class. I took the really hard one because I was one of those ASian American gunners. Organic Chemistry I is easy, part II gets harder, also it depends upon the professor and where you take the class. Many of my friends got As in O Chem but wound up with Bs in Physics.

 

[el_duderino]

I was the only student who got a solid A in my Modern Physics for Engineers Class
I took the really hard one because I was one of those ASian American gunners.
Organic Chemistry I is easy

 

[Goro]

I have absolutely no math abilities, yet I got a B in Physics I and an A in Physics 2, so I must contest your assertion!

I would say Physics is harder, I was the only student who got a solid A in my Modern Physics for Engineers Class. I took the really hard one because I was one of those ASian American gunners. Organic Chemistry I is easy, part II gets harder, also it depends upon the professor and where you take the class. Many of my friends got As in O Chem but wound up with Bs in Physics.

 

[dapdrow]

My cGPA is much higher than my sGPA.

Non-science classes = very little effort on my part to get an A.
Science classes = lots of effort on my part---I was fine when I put in the work but I had some ups and downs, depending on whether or not awful crap was going on in my life or not. Also, I never studied much until college and the first semester was a bit of a learning curve to me.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I have absolutely no math abilities, yet I got a B in Physics I and an A in Physics 2, so I must contest your assertion!

I also have no math abilities(thats why out of all my prereqs gen chem 1 is my lowest grade) and I also got As in physics 1 and 2 but that was only because I lucked out by having a really hard professor oddly enough. Test averages were low enough that I was able to beat the curve on test taking ability alone despite having no idea what the hell I was doing. This is also probably why my physical sciences section on the MCAT was lower than what I wanted, even though there were few calculations.

Physics was definitely tough for me in terms of actually learning it but the math was the easy part(they let you have a calculator, at least they did for my class) and most of the formulas are pretty straight forward. Its the concepts and the deriving of the formulas to apply to previously unseen situations from the concepts that broke my brain.

 

[becomingdoctor]

I also have no math abilities(thats why out of all my prereqs gen chem 1 is my lowest grade) and I also got As in physics 1 and 2 but that was only because I lucked out by having a really hard professor oddly enough. Test averages were low enough that I was able to beat the curve on test taking ability alone despite having no idea what the hell I was doing. This is also probably why my physical sciences section on the MCAT was lower than what I wanted, even though there were few calculations.

Physics was definitely tough for me in terms of actually learning it but the math was the easy part(they let you have a calculator, at least they did for my class) and most of the formulas are pretty straight forward. Its the concepts and the deriving of the formulas to apply to previously unseen situations from the concepts that broke my brain.

.

 

[Tommyguns89]

I got 14 on mcat ps and I have one B and one C from my community college physics courses. Course grades sometimes are very off especially at community college level.

I took my ochem at University and I got straight A (one year, three lec and labs), but I suffered from MCAT ochem and ended up with embarrassing 12 on mcat BS.

My point is, course grades could be all over the place but may not necessarily reflect student's ability (at single course level). But averaging 4 years of grades still offers some reliable information on this student.

Wut

 

[Seth Joo]

I have absolutely no math abilities, yet I got a B in Physics I and an A in Physics 2, so I must contest your assertion!

Most of my friends were getting As in Orgo but struggling with that Physics class. I guess not everyone is the same. Organic Chemistry is a like a mini medical school class, its lot of memorization, its not particularly hard, its really understanding mechanisms and such.

 

[tenblackalps]

Most of my friends were getting As in Orgo but struggling with that Physics class. I guess not everyone is the same. Organic Chemistry is a like a mini medical school class, its lot of memorization, its not particularly hard, its really understanding mechanisms and such.

Not sure that is entirely true, orgo 2 at the state school where I go is extremely hard. We have an adjunct lecturer who can think about nothing else besides writing exams where even writing ANYTHING down can get you points. Regrettably I took a different professor for Orgo 1 and then when I took Orgo 2 with the tough professor, I walked out of my first exam with half the test blank (it is all short answer). If only I knew to draw even a line or hexagon for the stuff I left blank I would have done much better. I spent the rest of the semester digging myself out that first exam hole. Glad it's over now and looking back I can laugh at how difficult it was

 

[Seth Joo]

Not sure that is entirely true, orgo 2 at the state school where I go is extremely hard. We have an adjunct lecturer who can think about nothing else besides writing exams where even writing ANYTHING down can get you points. Regrettably I took a different professor for Orgo 1 and then when I took Orgo 2 with the tough professor, I walked out of my first exam with half the test blank (it is all short answer). If only I knew to draw even a line or hexagon for the stuff I left blank I would have done much better. I spent the rest of the semester digging myself out that first exam hole. Glad it's over now and looking back I can laugh at how difficult it was

I said Orgo 2 is the harder half of it, Orgo I is not that bad. That being said Physics for Engineers is one of the toughest science classes you can ever take, most premeds take the Physics for premeds one, the easy one without the Calculus. My Physics professor was one of the most sarcastic people I ever met in my life, he was a riot and really entertaining, it was worth it to show up to class to hear his antics.

 

[tenblackalps]

I said Orgo 2 is the harder half of it, Orgo I is not that bad. That being said Physics for Engineers is one of the toughest science classes you can ever take, most premeds take the Physics for premeds one, the easy one without the Calculus. My Physics professor was one of the most sarcastic people I ever met in my life, he was a riot and really entertaining, it was worth it to show up to class to hear his antics.

I concur with physics w/ calc, I am also an engineer and though I cruised through it, it takes a certain type of reasoning (similar to the mcat, now that I think about it) that is not as natural for everyone. I too had some very sarcastic, brilliant professors in the physics department. For Phys 2 we had rotating lecturers because both worked in particle/theoretical physics at CERN! How cool is that. I think it takes a special type of person to have a career in physics. I've spent some time reading laymans physics book by Brian Greene, Michio Kaku, and Brian Cox, and some of that stuff like with string theory like tesseracts and the Calabi-Yau manifold.... wow I can't even imagine what they do at the PhD level. Same goes for mathematics really. The highest I've taken is Diff Eq and even that traces back to Euler in the 1700s. What has been developed for the past few centuries?

 

[el_duderino]

Most of my friends were getting As in Orgo but struggling with that Physics class. I guess not everyone is the same. Organic Chemistry is a like a mini medical school class, its lot of memorization, its not particularly hard, its really understanding mechanisms and such.

You know that classes vary from professor to professor and school to school, yes?

 

[Seth Joo]

You know that classes vary from professor to professor and school to school, yes?

Take Physics with Calc and then come back to me.

 

[el_duderino]

Take Physics with Calc and then come back to me.

Oh. Which physics did I take?

Seriously. I did take physics with calc, at an engineering university known for grade deflation. Then I took organic chem at my state school. Organic chem at the state school was actually graded harder than my engineering physics with calc courses.

There is a great deal of variability, and you can't just say "physics with calc is harder than o chem."

 

[becomingdoctor]

Oh. Which physics did I take?

Seriously. I did take physics with calc, at an engineering university known for grade deflation. Then I took organic chem at my state school. Organic chem at the state school was actually graded harder than my engineering physics with calc courses.

There is a great deal of variability, and you can't just say "physics with calc is harder than o chem."

If you take physics with engineering students, one thing you should know is most of them don't even care about grades as long as they pass it so that after they graduate they can find a job in broadcom or western digital making six figures at age of 26. Who cares what was the grade for intro physics.
---story of my ex roommate

 

[el_duderino]

Funny, all the guys I took physics with were engineering majors who cared very much about their grades.

Not only because ambitious college students are in general a pretty neurotic bunch, but because undergrad GPA is something that hiring managers look at when sorting through resumes.

 

[becomingdoctor]

Funny, all the guys I took physics with were engineering majors who cared very much about their grades.

Not only because ambitious college students are in general a pretty neurotic bunch, but because undergrad GPA is something that hiring managers look at when sorting through resumes.

I cannot say gpa isn't important for engineers but not as much as premed. An internship/project weights more than gpa. Plus most of the tech interviewers will ask technical questions during interview. Many firms didn't even ask for GPA such as intel and broadcom (at least from people I know). Certainly people with impressive gpa usually list them on resume, but not everyone does that.

 

[GiveMeThatMD]

sGPA factors in science and math. Science and math hard.

 

[Lawgiver]

because you dont like science as much as you should

 

[Gandyy]

Science/Math classes by nature are just way way harder than anything a non science course can throw at you.

Think about the kind of people non science courses are really catered for.

 

[el_duderino]

Science/Math classes by nature are just way way harder than anything a non science course can throw at you.

Think about the kind of people non science courses are really catered for.

This is so not true. Science classes are usually harder, but there's no inherent reason they need to be.

I know a pre-med forum is going to be highly science-focused, but we need to be a little more understanding of other disciplines.

 

[Gandyy]

This is so not true. Science classes are usually harder, but there's no inherent reason they need to be.

I know a pre-med forum is going to be highly science-focused, but we need to be a little more understanding of other disciplines.

Actually it is true. I've taken many "upper level" non science classes including discipline areas of business, art, and other humanities. I had people tell me how "difficult" macroecon 3000 was or how much memorization was involved in art history 3500. They were much easier than my organic classes, physiology classes, physics classes or anything else. Hell I took intro physics too and never took any math above calculus 1. Its not about being "understanding" of other disciplines. There is no "right" or "wrong" or "morality" in this. Science/Math courses just are much harder to do well in for MOST people. Simple fact of academic disciplines.

To illustrate: many people I knew including me had to study like a day or two for these other "difficult" non science courses and we got straight A's in them. We would study for these science exams for an entire week before and barely pull a decent grade. This is the case for many many college students. There is a reason that even science oriented students have lower sGPAs than they do their cGPAs across the board in almost every medical school admissions process.

 

[el_duderino]

There is a reason that even science oriented students have lower sGPAs than they do their cGPAs across the board in almost every medical school admissions process.

Yes, and the reason is that most of those classes are indeed easier. I'm saying that the material itself isn't necessarily easier. It's not any easier to gain a mastery of interpreting 19th-century painting trends than it is to gain a mastery of basic organic chemistry reactions, but the latter is usually simply structured and graded more harshly.

Academic disciplines besides science can be extremely rigorous and difficult. They just usually aren't.

Saying that undergrad science classes are harder than anything non-sience can throw at you is just dismissive, ignorant, and elitist.

 

[Gandyy]

Yes, and the reason is that most of those classes are indeed easier. I'm saying that the material itself isn't necessarily easier. It's not any easier to gain a mastery of interpreting 19th-century painting trends than it is to gain a mastery of basic organic chemistry reactions, but the latter is usually simply structured and graded more harshly.

Academic disciplines besides science can be extremely rigorous and difficult. They just usually aren't.

Saying that undergrad science classes are harder than anything non-sience can throw at you is just dismissive, ignorant, and elitist.

Its not elitist at all. Have you seen my posts on SDN? I'm like as far away from elitist as it gets.

You say that gaining a mastery of organic chem is not harder than intrepreting a painting. I'm saying that from my experience and many others experiences, it actually IS much harder.

It would be dismissive and ignorant IF I had not taken a substantial amount of non science courses. But I have in various disciplines. And so have many others whom I know in college.

I think the argument here is coming from the notion that you think I am saying that ALL non science classes are a complete and utter joke. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that most of them are usually way easier than the science counterparts.

Furthermore, lets delve deeper. Why do children in public schools across the nation have much more trouble with science and math than they do other disciplines? It is well known that science and math is notoriously much more difficult than most non-science disciplines. We can argue this all day, and you can say its elitist or whatever. But its present everywhere in almost every academic institution.

Edit: Also how in the hell can you say that understanding Differential Equations or Statics is just as easy to comprehend as Art History? Like what?

 

[el_duderino]

So science is just harder than everything else. Good to know.

 

[Gandyy]

So science is just harder than everything else. Good to know.

Think about what science entails. Science encompasses so many things including every discipline in the health professions, and other disciplines that pretty much only super intelligent people are capable of understanding. The people who work in a physics particle accelerator. The aeronautical engineers, and so forth. So yea, forgive me if I think that stuff makes art history and business seem like kindergarten material.

 

[el_duderino]

So yea, forgive me if I think that stuff makes art history and business seem like kindergarten material.

No.

 

[Gandyy]

No.

We can agree to disagree then. I will say that you are the first person I have ever met on an online forum or real life that has this view.

I respect your opinions.

 

[el_duderino]

We can agree to disagree then. I will say that you are the first person I have ever met on an online forum or real life that has this view.

I respect your opinions.

That has what view? That things that aren't science can be hard? That science isn't the only thing that super intelligent people are capable of understanding?

And you're saying that your view is not elitist?

There are people much, much smarter than you doing non-science things at a level you never could.

 

[Gandyy]

That has what view? That things that aren't science can be hard? That science isn't the only thing that super intelligent people are capable of understanding?

And you're saying that your view is not elitist?

There are people much, much smarter than you doing non-science things at a level you never could.

You seem to misunderstand again what I am saying. First of all, lets get this out in the open. I'm not very smart at all, and I'm probably not even as smart as you or the majority of the people on this forum. The problem here though is that you are equating my statements to what I think about myself which is a huge fallacy. But do please stop doing this. This isnt about me or you or anyone in particular. We are discussing academic disciplines, not people.

Second, when a soccer player says that there is no other sport out there where you have to be as in shape for as soccer, is he being elitist? I dont think so.

Also I never said that only super intelligent people can understand science. There are geniuses in many fields including music, art and other disciplines.

Lets take physicians for example. Physicians just need to be around or slightly above average intelligence, but they need to extremely hard working and have motivation/drive.

The average physicist working at a particle accelerator is probably much smarter than the average business graduate. I'm not bashing the business profession, I'm just talking about who has it academically more difficult.

 

[el_duderino]

I am not getting into a semantic argument about this. I'll simply post the things in this thread you've said that I think are wrong and elitist and bow out.

"Science/Math classes by nature are just way way harder than anything a non science course can throw at you."

"Think about the kind of people non science courses are really catered for." (really, tell us about those kinds of people.)

"[O chem] actually IS much harder [than interpreting a painting]"

"art history and business seem like kindergarten material."

 

[Gandyy]

I am not getting into a semantic argument about this. I'll simply post the things in this thread you've said that I think are wrong and elitist and bow out.

"Science/Math classes by nature are just way way harder than anything a non science course can throw at you."

"Think about the kind of people non science courses are really catered for." (really, tell us about those kinds of people.)

"[O chem] actually IS much harder [than interpreting a painting]"

"art history and business seem like kindergarten material."

You can make anything sound bad and elitist when you take it out of context so thats a moot point. Whats more, you've actually changed/deleted wording on some of my sentences in order to illustrate this point of yours. You've done exactly the same thing the media does.

 

[becomingdoctor]

So science is just harder than everything else. Good to know.

Science isn't l, engineering is. Particularly EE

 

[Gandyy]

Science isn't l, engineering is. Particularly EE

I kind of group science and math together as they both have extremely difficult sub disciplines within them, and have lots of interlap as well.

 

[Henry101]

omg
Is this really a question?