Why CRNAs are the way of the future

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Sooooo... I overheard this exchange in the cafeteria at the local academic hospital a couple days ago. (Disclaimer: I don't know the backgrounds of the 2 individuals involved... though I have my suspicions.)


Person A: I was thinking about going to CRNA school. My sister is one and she says she makes loads.
Person B: Great idea!
Person A: But all the CRNA schools I looked at require a year of work as a nurse! Are there any schools that don't?
Person B: No way! Working in Critical Care/ICU before starting school is what separates CRNAs from doctors.
Person A: Oh?!?
Person B: Absolutely. If you want to just go to school and never learn anything practical, you should go to med school. Then you can read books and go to lectures for the rest of your life!
*raucous laughter*



So congratulations to all MDAs everywhere. You quite literally handed the keys of the city to the visigoths, because it was A) politically expedient B) easy C) lined your pockets D) all of the above.

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It's like this with all nursing educated mid-levels.

Here is a conversation I overheard between three NP students leaving the hospital at about 7pm while I was on hour 12 of a 30+ hour shift in the ICU.
NP 1: I don't get it. Our training is equal to theirs and we do the same stuff.
NP 2: Yah, all the residents do on rounds is quote this study or that. They don't actually care about the patients.
NP 3 just nodded in agreement.

So you can imagine how pissed I was that these these three got to go home after playing "Noctor" for a day and I had to pull a shift taking care of patients.
 
No use wasting your time trying to educate these people either... It's the same with all mid level health care providers. Just a coping mechanism to help them get through life.

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For 1000s of years, underachievers have been making themselves feel better about their underachievement by talking smack about their betters.

Don't fool yourself into thinking those idiots' behavior was anything new.

And don't miss the bigger picture reflected by Person A's comments: she doesn't want to work even a single measly year as a nurse before escaping to the respect money and glory of SRNAdom ... because she's found that being a nurse sucks. There's nothing here to be jealous, frustrated, or angry about.

If you get angsty every time a ***** crosses your path you're in for a sour life.
 
Meh. They talk a big game until it comes time to really save someone's life. Much as I hate to admit it, watching a midlevel crash and burn in an emergency situation because they're in way over their heads is often the highlight of my work day. It happens regularly.
 
One of my partners is married to a drug rep for a diabetes drug. She tells me that she will go and call on Nurse Practitioners who don't even understand insulin resistance. How do you become an "advanced practice nurse" in primary care and not understand insulin resistance?
 
Sounds like the **** is really hitting the fan from reading Dec. edition of A&A... 1:20 supervision??

Anesthesia & Analgesia
Issue: Volume 121(6), December 2015, p 1679–1680

The Future of Physician Anesthesiologists
[email protected]

1 I am deeply troubled by the authors’ proposed changes to anesthesiology residency training. They suggest that residents will need to acquire the “knowledge and expertise to supervise 6–20 anesthetizing sites where direct care is provided by physician extenders.” Also, “An extended period of time…might be spent in the simulation lab, being faced with supervision of multiple anesthetic delivery locations…learning to triage and prioritize anesthetic emergencies.”

In the parlance of the day, “Really?”

Because the American Society of Anesthesiologists has recently been promoting physician anesthesiologist–driven care with the slogan, “When seconds matter…” and the official position of the American Society of Anesthesiologists leadership is in opposition to independent certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA) practice, are those 2 items compatible with the above proposal? If a physician is supervising 20 sites, could he or she reliably attend to an emergency in one of those venues in a matter of seconds? In my opinion, serious consideration should be given to this question.

The editorial board asked me if I have any evidence whether 1:4 coverage is less safe than 1:3 or 1:2 coverage of extenders. I know of no such studies having been performed, and I do not suspect they will ever be done. All I have to go on is common sense and 31 years of practice supervising, as well as personally providing, anesthesia care. However, I think that most honest brokers would concur that personally provided anesthesia care by a physician would be the safest delivery method in an ideal world and that 1:6 to 1:20, as proposed in the article, would by definition be less safe (res ipsa loquitur). I would boomerang the question back to the authors and ask, “Where is the evidence that such ratios produce similar outcomes and mortality as lower ratios and even MD anesthesia care?” Again, those studies are not likely to be ever performed, but should not they be before our leadership proposes such a radical change?

Key questions that are not adequately addressed as part of the article are numbers of physician anesthesiologists needed in the new paradigm the authors propose and the education, training, and methods of supervising 20 extenders (what are the nuts and bolts of how to do it?). We must demand more accountability from our extenders to practice in a standardized fashion and not allow the “this is the way I have always done it” attitude to continue to prevail, especially in the proposed model of “drive by” supervision.

The independent CRNA practice model has been repudiated in this austere journal, as well as in Anesthesiology. As a member of the board of the Florida Society of Anesthesiologists, I have been personally involved in the efforts to defeat legislation that was put forth by the AANA (American Association of Nurse Anesthetists) and the Florida Association of Nurse Anesthetists (FANA) to allow independent practice in our state. Have not we (physician anesthesiologists) emphasized the expansive differences in training and education between doctors and nurses to anyone who is listening to make our case that independent CRNA practice would be disastrous for patient safety? And finally, have not all of us who currently supervise extenders rescued patients from events and near events all day long, every day of the week? I see these issues, independent CRNA practice and expansive supervisory ratios, to be inextricably linked together. It is not a far reach for legislators and many in the public who are on the outside looking in to ask why they need a physician anesthesiologist when they see only 1 physician for every 20 nurse anesthetists or anesthesiology assistants.

To summarize, to maintain our relevance as physician anesthesiologists, we must continue to be a noticeable presence in the operating room. We must balance patient safety, economic reality, and the impact of changes in healthcare delivery in a fashion such that we as a society, and as individual physicians, remain relevant in every anesthetic delivered in our hospitals, however that may be accomplished.

J. C. Lydon, MD

Brevard Physicians Associates

Melbourne, Florida

[email protected]
 
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Interaction with a nursing student yesterday:

Me: What kind of nurse are you planning to be?
NS: My dream is to be a nurse anesthetist
Me: Oh?
NS: Ya...I really wanted to be a surgeon, actually, but I just hate school. So much reading and regurgitating stuff and tests. Nursing just allows you to chose your career without any stress or competition.
 
Interaction with a nursing student yesterday:

Me: What kind of nurse are you planning to be?
NS: My dream is to be a nurse anesthetist
Me: Oh?
NS: Ya...I really wanted to be a surgeon, actually, but I just hate school. So much reading and regurgitating stuff and tests. Nursing just allows you to chose your career without any stress or competition.

Gotta admire her insight.
 
Gotta admire her insight.


She's an idiot. No decent professional nursing program is stress free. See this is what I have been talking about for years--nurses that are novice--in this case not even novice--getting into advanced practice programs with little, hardcore clinical in acute or critical care at a university center. People shouldn't be able to just move from undergrad to advanced practice without strong clinical experience over a decent period of time. I mean it's not like they get all the clinical hours in a residency program after completing the program.

Also, she's an idiot, b/c many CRNA programs are competitive b/c of lack of seats. Like med school? No, but competitive enough.

If anyone hears her talk in the clinical field and tries to wake her up a little bit about it, they are browbeaten for discouraging a fellow nurse. It's ridiculous.
 
She's an idiot. No decent professional nursing program is stress free. See this is what I have been talking about for years--nurses that are novice--in this case not even novice--getting into advanced practice programs with little, hardcore clinical in acute or critical care at a university center. People shouldn't be able to just move from undergrad to advanced practice without strong clinical experience over a decent period of time. I mean it's not like they get all the clinical hours in a residency program after completing the program.

Also, she's an idiot, b/c many CRNA programs are competitive b/c of lack of seats. Like med school? No, but competitive enough.

If anyone hears her talk in the clinical field and tries to wake her up a little bit about it, they are browbeaten for discouraging a fellow nurse. It's ridiculous.

From what I've seen here in Florida CRNA school isn't competitive at all and you are pretty much guaranteed a position somewhere if you can meet the qualifications:

1. Work Experience- 1 year if high GPA (3.6 or greater) or 3+ years of ICU if low GPA (3.0-3.4)
2. GRE of 1,000 (they like 1,000 but I've seen a few with 900 0r 950 get in)
3. Ability to pay $80-$100,000 for the the cost of schooling
4. Ability to withstand the CRNA hazing process (it's more hazing than actual education for SRNAs)

That's it in a nutshell.
 
From what I've seen here in Florida CRNA school isn't competitive at all and you are pretty much guaranteed a position somewhere if you can meet the qualifications:

1. Work Experience- 1 year if high GPA (3.6 or greater) or 3+ years of ICU if low GPA (3.0-3.4)
2. GRE of 1,000 (they like 1,000 but I've seen a few with 900 0r 950 get in)
3. Ability to pay $80-$100,000 for the the cost of schooling
4. Ability to withstand the CRNA hazing process (it's more hazing than actual education for SRNAs)

That's it in a nutshell.
Blade, what is your take on the practice model of the future, modern anesthesiologist? 1:20 supervision, surgical home, only doing high risk cases, jumping ship to critical care, etc. Thanks.
 
Sounds like the **** is really hitting the fan from reading Dec. edition of A&A... 1:20 supervision??

Anesthesia & Analgesia
Issue: Volume 121(6), December 2015, p 1679–1680

The Future of Physician Anesthesiologists
[email protected]

1 I am deeply troubled by the authors’ proposed changes to anesthesiology residency training. They suggest that residents will need to acquire the “knowledge and expertise to supervise 6–20 anesthetizing sites where direct care is provided by physician extenders.” Also, “An extended period of time…might be spent in the simulation lab, being faced with supervision of multiple anesthetic delivery locations…learning to triage and prioritize anesthetic emergencies.”

In the parlance of the day, “Really?”

Because the American Society of Anesthesiologists has recently been promoting physician anesthesiologist–driven care with the slogan, “When seconds matter…” and the official position of the American Society of Anesthesiologists leadership is in opposition to independent certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA) practice, are those 2 items compatible with the above proposal? If a physician is supervising 20 sites, could he or she reliably attend to an emergency in one of those venues in a matter of seconds? In my opinion, serious consideration should be given to this question.

The editorial board asked me if I have any evidence whether 1:4 coverage is less safe than 1:3 or 1:2 coverage of extenders. I know of no such studies having been performed, and I do not suspect they will ever be done. All I have to go on is common sense and 31 years of practice supervising, as well as personally providing, anesthesia care. However, I think that most honest brokers would concur that personally provided anesthesia care by a physician would be the safest delivery method in an ideal world and that 1:6 to 1:20, as proposed in the article, would by definition be less safe (res ipsa loquitur). I would boomerang the question back to the authors and ask, “Where is the evidence that such ratios produce similar outcomes and mortality as lower ratios and even MD anesthesia care?” Again, those studies are not likely to be ever performed, but should not they be before our leadership proposes such a radical change?

Key questions that are not adequately addressed as part of the article are numbers of physician anesthesiologists needed in the new paradigm the authors propose and the education, training, and methods of supervising 20 extenders (what are the nuts and bolts of how to do it?). We must demand more accountability from our extenders to practice in a standardized fashion and not allow the “this is the way I have always done it” attitude to continue to prevail, especially in the proposed model of “drive by” supervision.

The independent CRNA practice model has been repudiated in this austere journal, as well as in Anesthesiology. As a member of the board of the Florida Society of Anesthesiologists, I have been personally involved in the efforts to defeat legislation that was put forth by the AANA (American Association of Nurse Anesthetists) and the Florida Association of Nurse Anesthetists (FANA) to allow independent practice in our state. Have not we (physician anesthesiologists) emphasized the expansive differences in training and education between doctors and nurses to anyone who is listening to make our case that independent CRNA practice would be disastrous for patient safety? And finally, have not all of us who currently supervise extenders rescued patients from events and near events all day long, every day of the week? I see these issues, independent CRNA practice and expansive supervisory ratios, to be inextricably linked together. It is not a far reach for legislators and many in the public who are on the outside looking in to ask why they need a physician anesthesiologist when they see only 1 physician for every 20 nurse anesthetists or anesthesiology assistants.

To summarize, to maintain our relevance as physician anesthesiologists, we must continue to be a noticeable presence in the operating room. We must balance patient safety, economic reality, and the impact of changes in healthcare delivery in a fashion such that we as a society, and as individual physicians, remain relevant in every anesthetic delivered in our hospitals, however that may be accomplished.

J. C. Lydon, MD

Brevard Physicians Associates

Melbourne, Florida

[email protected]

Asking if there is evidence wtf? What a joke. 6-20 isn't supervising anything. It's just risking your license so that someone else gets a payday
 
She's an idiot. No decent professional nursing program is stress free. See this is what I have been talking about for years--nurses that are novice--in this case not even novice--getting into advanced practice programs with little, hardcore clinical in acute or critical care at a university center. People shouldn't be able to just move from undergrad to advanced practice without strong clinical experience over a decent period of time. I mean it's not like they get all the clinical hours in a residency program after completing the program.

Also, she's an idiot, b/c many CRNA programs are competitive b/c of lack of seats. Like med school? No, but competitive enough.

If anyone hears her talk in the clinical field and tries to wake her up a little bit about it, they are browbeaten for discouraging a fellow nurse. It's ridiculous.


Hi. Med student here. I was an ICU RN for 9 years before starting med school. Every single RN I worked with who applied to CRNA school (except for 2) have gotten in. The programs are not as competitive as you think.

Also, 3 months in, nursing school (and I went to one of the best) was a joke compared to medical school.
 
While most days I do my own rooms and cases, when I am the charge doctor I might supervise up to 7 CRNAs at a time. Supervision is very different than direction. There is a learning curve on how to do it, such as how to prioritize and how to delegate. You learn how to relay pertinent information that you want done a certain way, and how to decide if there are many ways that something can be done and allow the CRNA to choose the way they are most comfortable with. You must have a group of CRNAs that you trust.

Prior to the case I have foreseen and warned the CRNA about what they will likely have trouble with and how they should address it. Thus the most common emergencies I am called for are help with intubations, help with placing the spinal, help with an arterial line. But I am still called for hypotension, tachycardia, and a few other thinking problems. I have a good, but small group of CRNAs, so I know each of them well, their strong and weak suits. We try and teach them to call for help quickly, because we know things that they don't know. We only have 1 that is a bit militant (read prideful), but even she knows to come to us for help, which happens a lot more than she might believe it does.

I find it a little funny that even though they are doing 100% cases and I am supervising every 5th day (5 MDs), that I am still so much better than them at the procedures (intubations, spinals, epidurals, etc).

After practicing in this model with some pretty experienced CRNAs whom I highly trust, I would not want to give any of them independent practice. They would too often miss far too many of the big pictures and small details. There is absolutely a difference in the way we think about problems.
 
From what I've seen here in Florida CRNA school isn't competitive at all and you are pretty much guaranteed a position somewhere if you can meet the qualifications:

1. Work Experience- 1 year if high GPA (3.6 or greater) or 3+ years of ICU if low GPA (3.0-3.4)
2. GRE of 1,000 (they like 1,000 but I've seen a few with 900 0r 950 get in)
3. Ability to pay $80-$100,000 for the the cost of schooling
4. Ability to withstand the CRNA hazing process (it's more hazing than actual education for SRNAs)

That's it in a nutshell.
Hi. Med student here. I was an ICU RN for 9 years before starting med school. Every single RN I worked with who applied to CRNA school (except for 2) have gotten in. The programs are not as competitive as you think.

Also, 3 months in, nursing school (and I went to one of the best) was a joke compared to medical school.


Maybe it's location related. I hear pre-applicants and actual applicants complaining about how "competitive" getting into a CRNA program is. IDK. Certainly, as I said, it's not as competitive as med school. I've never tried to apply.

Some physicians may in fact be surprised at how often some of us very experienced nurses want to slap certain CRNAs silly. Personally, when I have had problems and concerns direct post-op, I prefer to talk w/ the anesthesiologist many times. Even a number of the anesthesiology residents roll their eyes at some of the CRNA attitudes and refusal to consider relevant, co-morbid concerns or even current research findings that may be relevant. And I do not mean to generalize, but between the attitude and laziness we see at times, we shake our heads.

It's fine that they pursued advanced practice, but did they forget how to look at all relevant data, and why do some seem so damn lazy that they really don't give a crap?

No. That is not the case for all, but for a number of them, it is. At which point we are even more befuddled by their strange combination of carelessness and arrogance. I give everyone a chance regardless of titles. I go out of my way to be fair and respectful. To some of these "advanced practice" nurses, I want to say, "It's not all about you." But I don't, b/c for certain people, it won't make a difference.

The hazing process, well, that's in all of nursing; it seems to carry over to CRNA. Sad.
 
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While most days I do my own rooms and cases, when I am the charge doctor I might supervise up to 7 CRNAs at a time. Supervision is very different than direction. There is a learning curve on how to do it, such as how to prioritize and how to delegate. You learn how to relay pertinent information that you want done a certain way, and how to decide if there are many ways that something can be done and allow the CRNA to choose the way they are most comfortable with. You must have a group of CRNAs that you trust.

Prior to the case I have foreseen and warned the CRNA about what they will likely have trouble with and how they should address it. Thus the most common emergencies I am called for are help with intubations, help with placing the spinal, help with an arterial line. But I am still called for hypotension, tachycardia, and a few other thinking problems. I have a good, but small group of CRNAs, so I know each of them well, their strong and weak suits. We try and teach them to call for help quickly, because we know things that they don't know. We only have 1 that is a bit militant (read prideful), but even she knows to come to us for help, which happens a lot more than she might believe it does.

I find it a little funny that even though they are doing 100% cases and I am supervising every 5th day (5 MDs), that I am still so much better than them at the procedures (intubations, spinals, epidurals, etc).

After practicing in this model with some pretty experienced CRNAs whom I highly trust, I would not want to give any of them independent practice. They would too often miss far too many of the big pictures and small details. There is absolutely a difference in the way we think about problems.
Why would you do 1:7?

Before medical direction/supervision requirements were laid out (actually medical supervision is rather pointless) I rotated through a couple places as a student where the "supervision" ratios were this lax. There was no supervision - these were truly the places where the anesthesiologists sat in the office counting the money.
 
Maybe it's location related. I hear pre-applicants and actual applicants complaining about how "competitive" getting into a CRNA program is. IDK. Certainly, as I said, it's not as competitive as med school. I've never tried to apply.

.


Not location related. They've gotten in everywhere. From LA to Florida and everywhere in between. There are even some people who will go to CRNA school in Puerto Rico.🙁

Don't listen to everything people tell you.

There are even people who complain about how hard it is to get into nursing school.
 
Just wait till CRNAs tell you about their "boards", how they too are "board-certified", and that their certification is comparable to ours. Happened to me.
 
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Oh, and their CRNA school is like a "residency". Let's not talk about their 2+ years of ICU "experience", compared to just 4 months in the ICU for anesthesiologists. :barf:

I am not being sarcastic. These are real quotations.
 
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Seriously, if there was a program which consisted of earning a BSN, a year of work-study in an ICU, followed by immediate entry to CRNA training, I would need to weigh it carefully against med school + residency + fellowship.
 
Not location related. They've gotten in everywhere. From LA to Florida and everywhere in between. There are even some people who will go to CRNA school in Puerto Rico.🙁

Don't listen to everything people tell you.

There are even people who complain about how hard it is to get into nursing school.


I knew a nurse who was planning on going to snrna school in Peru.
 
Not location related. They've gotten in everywhere. From LA to Florida and everywhere in between. There are even some people who will go to CRNA school in Puerto Rico.🙁

Don't listen to everything people tell you.

There are even people who complain about how hard it is to get into nursing school.


OMG jayceee, you should see the ICU RN nurse worship as soon as someone has shared that they were accepted into a CRNA program. Even the nurse management and upper administration kisses their butts as if they have achieved something as extraordinary as achieving the Field's Medal or Nobel Prize. Sign-out w/ some of them is actually very difficult to stomach. They think their acceptance has exceeded the knowledge of those with many years in strong and various critical care settings. If it were just a few people, it wouldn't be so annoying. Many nurses hate to work with a certain number of CRNAs. Too bad this same certain percentage is all about the money and them getting the hell out of work on their time table, while others of us stay to clear and clean up the fall-out from codes and such. I am not saying some aren't good and decent to work with. But there are those that are careless, lazy, dangerous, and to add insult to injury, incredibly arrogant over the fact that they have achieved CRNA status. My rant is a totally reality-based vent. At the end of the day, the best you can do is to tolerate these people and be glad they move back to the OR soon after they sign out with us and get all their numbers.
 
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"We do not support this initiative which requires the direct supervision of NPs in order to belong to the “DermCare Team”. This restriction of dermatology NPs’ practice comes without any formal research or statistics that support their statements and initiative."

Where have I head this before?
 
Derm NP leadership is lobbying for independent practice w/o supervision of dermatologists under the "DermCare Team" (DCT)
http://www.nadnp.net/?page=practiceissues
"We do not support this initiative which requires the direct supervision of NPs in order to belong to the “DermCare Team”. This restriction of dermatology NPs’ practice comes without any formal research or statistics that support their statements and initiative."

Where have I head this before?


What? This is becoming ridiculous.
 
Oh, and their CRNA school is like a "residency". Let's not talk about their 2+ years of ICU "experience", compared to just 4 months in the ICU for anesthesiologists. :barf:

I am not being sarcastic. These are real quotations.

I've had the same experiences as you. The worst one I ever had was my wife and I were at a dinner for a friend's birthday. I struck up casual conversation with the guy next to me. He mentioned he had just moved here from California. I asked him what brought him here and he said "well, I finished my anesthesia residency and found a job here that I really liked so we made the move". Thinking wow, small world, I just met a fellow anesthesiologist in this smallish big town and so I told him where I practice and asked him where he did. He went ghost white, his face fell, and muttered "well, I'm a CRNA at ______". Unbelievable misrepresentation. And yes, I called him out on it. Made for an awkward rest of the evening.
 
It would be embarrassing to make such a statement that CRNA school is like an anesthesiology residency. ICU experience is important FOR THE STUDENT NURSE ANESTHETIST, but it in no way = GME residency. When they do the same hours under the same guidelines and responsibility and knowledge and when they pass your board certification, maybe then they will have a leg to stand on with this. Perhaps my nurse colleagues and I are the odd balls, but we would find such a statement enormously ignorant and embarrassing. This is what we do when we hear such things: Shake our heads and :whoa:
 
This whole claim towards having ICU experience always confused me. Is it meant to make the nurse anesthetist a better anesthetist because they spent time surrounded by common drugs we use in the OR?

Again, I'd counter with the fact that my AAs don't come with ICU experience, and while I have noticed that fresh out of training some of them may be a little less facile compared to some fresh out of training CRNAs I've met, after a few months that difference is gone. The AAs I know are mostly excellent.

And having ICU experience is good, which is why our residents are required to have some rotations there. In fact, now our AA-students rotate through the unit, too. Having done a fellowship, it changes the way I approach my anesthetics. But when it really comes down to it, aside from a few nuances and maybe a little more comfort with ICU patients who need procedures done, I don't think there is that much difference between me and my general colleagues
 
I've had the same experiences as you. The worst one I ever had was my wife and I were at a dinner for a friend's birthday. I struck up casual conversation with the guy next to me. He mentioned he had just moved here from California. I asked him what brought him here and he said "well, I finished my anesthesia residency and found a job here that I really liked so we made the move". Thinking wow, small world, I just met a fellow anesthesiologist in this smallish big town and so I told him where I practice and asked him where he did. He went ghost white, his face fell, and muttered "well, I'm a CRNA at ______". Unbelievable misrepresentation. And yes, I called him out on it. Made for an awkward rest of the evening.

No worries, they don't want to be called doctors or practice medicine
 
Why would you guys even start this thread...its shameful this conversation is actually being had. Stop being insecure about crna...they are not as well trained as we are, we know it and they know it, period end of discussion...anything more is just engaging in hyperbole.
 
To the OP-did you say anything to these two knuckleheads? Call them out on their idiocy and put them in their place. Bet they'd shut up REAL fast.
 
Why would you guys even start this thread...its shameful this conversation is actually being had. Stop being insecure about crna...they are not as well trained as we are, we know it and they know it, period end of discussion...anything more is just engaging in hyperbole.
They are brainwashed into thinking the opposite, and so are the bean counters. As serious anesthesia complications are becoming rarer and rarer, because of the technology, both groups think that they can get away with less and less anesthesiologist involvement (read "medical direction").

That doesn't mean that they want to be independent on paper; most of them don't (unless it's worth the money, meaning easy cases - they are not stupid). They want you to be the firefighter, the preop monkey, and the malpractice shield who picks up the liability for the 4-5-8 rooms you cover. They don't want to be directed or supervised, just the benefits of it (for them). Not a future I'd like to work in.

Good luck with your "end of discussion" approach. It won't work in most places.
 
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