Why Derm Lifestyle > Rads?

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RadsvsDerm

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“If you can do derm, then do derm.” I feel like most people in medicine will unanimously say that line. Many people envy the derm lifestyle. However, why isn’t the same said for rads?

I’ve talked to many rads attendings in academic and private settings who have schedules that are on par or even better than derm. Rads typically work 8-5, but also not uncommonly, I hear about people with amazing schedules like 7-3, 8-4, 9-5, or night gigs that are 1 week on 2 weeks off. These people are all making at least 400k starting out of residency, with many even making >500-600k (with an extra shift here and there throughout the year). With partnership tracks, rads attendings can expect to make at least 600-700k. Oh yeah and a lot of these jobs can be done from home if desired.

I don’t understand how derm can be any better than this? What is it about derm that makes everyone glamorize the lifestyle? People will argue that rads is super busy and not as lifestyle-ish because of increased volume. But I feel the same can be said for derm. It’s not like derm attendings are clocking out at noon making 500k seeing 10 patients a day, rather they’re chugging through high volume clinics with most seeing at least 50-60 patients a day (for the same pay and time at work as rads).

If you want to make 500k in derm or rads, both are gonna be a high volume grind. One is patient after patient, while the other is image after image. However, rads provides more flexible shift work and unique schedules that can be done remotely or even from home. So again, why is derm perceived so much better than rads on a lifestyle/income basis?


TL;DR: Rads and derm are both very high volume while at work for about same exact pay and hours. But why is derm perceived as a significantly better lifestyle specialty?
 
People def glamorize derm lifestyle. Their offices are very busy. Id say derm and rads are very similar in terms of lifestyle and compensation. The edge goes to derm with a year shorter training length.
 
Shh...please. I kid, lol.

I don't think derm volume can compare to rads volume. The mental effort required to interpret these images at such a breakneck pace is orders of magnitude higher than seeing your bread and butter derm pts.

Also, read the entirety of this thread:
 
Maybe it's because rads are under higher threat of litigation if they miss something on a scan. There's a lot of pressure to be right all the time, and it probably wears on you over time
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
No nights, no weekends ever.

If your rads group doesn't have a night/weekend person then every so often you'll have to do it.
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My derm practice, like many other derm practices, must not have gotten your memo. We have evening and weekend hours. We are also always on call for our own patients unless out of town on vacation.
 
Why does it matter which one is more lifestyle friendly of two lifestyle friendly fields? Choose the field that interests you. Neither of those fields have the lifestyle I'm looking for because I wouldn't enjoy the whole time I'm at work. I don't want to chug through derm clinic patients non-stop or through images. For other people, radiology/derm is the perfect option.

If you want to just compare rads and derm: In rads you are expected to speed through studies while not making mistakes. Making a mistake could be disastrous for your career. That's stressful. You also don't have much direct patient contact. In derm, you can have a heavy clinic of mostly low acuity issues if you want. There is still that stress of making terrible mistakes, but it's not as pressing. Derm is more likely to deal with demanding patients, which is it's own lifestyle issue. Derm works directly with patient though, which is what most people who are going into medicine look for.
 
Derm is ~500 US MD applicants for 500 spots
Rads is ~850 US MD applicants for 1000 spots

Personally I think that is why Derm is so much more notoriously competitive and prized. You're right that the annual compensation is similar or higher for Rads, and the typical number of shifts worked per month should be similar too. For example, a Derm that does a 4 day clinic workweek is doing 16 shifts in 4 weeks; a Rads that does a 5 day workweek, 1 weekend call, and 1 week off per month is also at 16-17 shifts in 4 weeks.

So just think about what will make eight hours pass by faster - reading endless studies or seeing and writing notes for endless patients. Personally I think time slows to a crawl in repetitive clinics, but we're all different.
 
Pepe18 said:
Why does it matter which one is more lifestyle friendly of two lifestyle friendly fields? Choose the field that interests you. Neither of those fields have the lifestyle I'm looking for because I wouldn't enjoy the whole time I'm at work. I don't want to chug through derm clinic patients non-stop or through images. For other people, radiology/derm is the perfect option.

If you want to just compare rads and derm: In rads you are expected to speed through studies while not making mistakes. Making a mistake could be disastrous for your career. That's stressful. You also don't have much direct patient contact. In derm, you can have a heavy clinic of mostly low acuity issues if you want. There is still that stress of making terrible mistakes, but it's not as pressing. Derm is more likely to deal with demanding patients, which is it's own lifestyle issue. Derm works directly with patient though, which is what most people who are going into medicine look for.
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Do you really think kids say to themselves 'I want to become a dematologist' when I grow up?

Do you really think psych is getting more competitive by accident?

Do you really think it's a coincidence that a specialty like radonc that used to attract MD/PhD AOA AMG can't even attract the bottom of the barrel of US students now?

It's the $$$, the ability to easily find a job, and lifestyle, my friend.
 
Splenda88 said:
Do you really think kids say to themselves 'I want to become a dematologist' when I grow up?

Do you really think psych is getting more competitive by accident?

Do you really think it's a coincidence that a specialty like radonc that used to attract MD/PhD AOA AMG can't even attract the bottom of the barrel of US students now?

It's the $$$, the ability to easily find a job, and lifestyle, my friend.
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lifestyle, job market, $$$ are all part of choosing your career path. But so is passion in the field..

Lot of 250s and 260s who would be competitive in any of the lifestyle fields apply every year to IM, FM, and Peds..money is part of it but not everrything
 
Skindoc83 said:
My derm practice, like many other derm practices, must not have gotten your memo. We have evening and weekend hours. We are also always on call for our own patients unless out of town on vacation.
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I have literally never seen a dermatology practice with evening or weekend hours
 
throwaway1000000 said:
lifestyle, job market, $$$ are all part of choosing your career path. But so is passion in the field..

Lot of 250s and 260s who would be competitive in any of the lifestyle fields apply every year to IM, FM, and Peds..money is part of it but not everrything
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I might be wrong here... When people say they are passionate about something, I think that passion should trump almost everything. I don't think derm would stay competitive if salary was cut in half.
 
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Splenda88 said:
I might be wrong here... When people say they are passionate about something, I think that passion should trump almost everything. I don't think derm would stay competitive is salary is cut in half.
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Could be for some people.
But for me it's a mix. I value money but also value passion. Hence picked IM with plans to do a high paying fellowship like cards or GI. I get to practice both what I like and make money. I had stats to do something either lifestyle friendly or high-paying like ortho or derm but ultimately chose to pursue what I like and make money in that field than being unhappy doing what I hate.
I think you can mix passion and money in most fields. I know many PCPs that bust a** in private practice and make more than a neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon would.
Not many people with this mix. But if you are in the realm where you like money but you want to do something you like, you can probably make it happen in medicine with some hard work. There will be some sacrifices along the way, no doubt.

Also unrelated, but when it comes to money, a lot of factors determine your net worth.
Marrying another physician increases your income potential a lot, a good sense of financial discipline can really make a difference too. A PCP with strong financial discipline will likely come out on top of an ortho with poor financial discipline.
I am just saying if money is the main thing you are after, you can make it happen in medicine! Don't need to necessarily sacrifice what you are passionate about.
 
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Splenda88 said:
Do you really think kids say to themselves 'I want to become a dematologist' when I grow up?

Do you really think psych is getting more competitive by accident?

Do you really think it's a coincidence that a specialty like radonc that used to attract MD/PhD AOA AMG can't even attract the bottom of the barrel of US students now?

It's the $$$, the ability to easily find a job, and lifestyle, my friend.
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There are lifestyle opportunities in every field. Why does it matter which one is more lifestyle friendly of two lifestyle friendly fields? OP says rads and derm have a good lifestyle, so the choice should come down to what they would actually enjoy doing. Lifestyle also means more than just hours and salary. You won't be happy if you don't like what you are doing in those hours.

The psych match rate this year is similar to 2018 charting the outcomes. The match rate decreased from the 2016 to 2018 CTO while the average step stayed the same, which suggests the match rate was brought down by weaker applicants who didn't match. There are still many more spots than US MD applicants. It will be interesting to see in the next charting the outcomes comes out if the psych became more competitive.
 
7331poas said:
People def glamorize derm lifestyle. Their offices are very busy. Id say derm and rads are very similar in terms of lifestyle and compensation. The edge goes to derm with a year shorter training length.
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Isn't it more like 2 years, because fellowships are practically required for Rads?

That being said, 10 hours in an optho clinic was enough to tell me that I never want to do anything where you see 40+ patients a day. Also, my skin isn't good enough for derm.
 
Splenda88 said:
I might be wrong here... When people say they are passionate about something, I think that passion should trump almost everything. I don't think derm would stay competitive if salary is cut in half.
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Passion is all fine and dandy, if that’s what someone has. But just because you’re in medical school doesn’t mean you’re passionate. It’s a job, like anything else at the end of the day, and unfortunately this job requires a 300K investment up front making it very difficult to leave even if you’re not passionate. I’d wager to say the majority of the working class are not passionate about their job - it’s a means to enjoy the rest of life as comfortably as possible, and Medicine can be seen similarly. Great that some are passionate and eager to take on busy services until the end of time, we absolutely need that and we are all grateful, but not everyone has that same interest and that’s fine. At the end of the day, no one had any clue what the job of medicine really entailed before going to medical school in the first place, so it really drives me nuts to hear the 4th year students say things like “I couldn’t imagine my life without surgery,”.... well, you were doing just fine without it 4 years ago so is that really true? Same for those saying “Derm clinic would be hell.” Really? 400K at 9-5, M-Th no call minimal stress is hell? Take a look at yourself in the mirror and see what you’ve become.

Anyways, sure if someone’s passionate about some specialty and it fits with the rest of the things they want then great - they will probably have a great career and be fulfilled. But if you don’t get that specialty, a lack of passion for some other field is OK. For others, other aspects of the job are more important in creating the overall work/life balance they desire. There seems to be some fixed belief that all doctors are/must be passionate about their job because of the “sacrifice” they make and will go to great lengths for their job because it’s their “calling.” Well, I sacrifice to make bank and buy a boat, that’s all. If I can help people in one way or another along the way, even better.

EDIT: just to add, I’m not implying that you hate your job. You can enjoy something without it being your passion.
 
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Pepe18 said:
There are lifestyle opportunities in every field. Why does it matter which one is more lifestyle friendly of two lifestyle friendly fields? OP says rads and derm have a good lifestyle, so the choice should come down to what they would actually enjoy doing. Lifestyle also means more than just hours and salary. You won't be happy if you don't like what you are doing in those hours.

The psych match rate this year is similar to 2018 charting the outcomes. The match rate decreased from the 2016 to 2018 CTO while the average step stayed the same, which suggests the match rate was brought down by weaker applicants who didn't match. There are still many more spots than US MD applicants. It will be interesting to see in the next charting the outcomes comes out if the psych became more competitive.
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Psych looks for different qualities than many other fields. If my program wanted to take nothing but US MDs we could, but we rank people more based on personality than anything. There's a reason my IM interviews were all of 45 minutes split between 2 people and my psych interviews were 3-4 hours of interviews split between 3-5 people. More than any other field, numbers alone don't tell the whole story.
 
LoGo said:
Passion is all fine and dandy, if that’s what someone has. But just because you’re in medical school doesn’t mean you’re passionate. It’s a job, like anything else at the end of the day, and unfortunately this job requires a 300K investment up front making it very difficult to leave even if you’re not passionate. I’d wager to say the majority of the working class are not passionate about their job - it’s a means to enjoy the rest of life as comfortably as possible, and Medicine can be seen similarly. Great that some are passionate and eager to take on busy services until the end of time, we absolutely need that and we are all grateful, but not everyone has that same interest and that’s fine. At the end of the day, no one had any clue what the job of medicine really entailed before going to medical school in the first place, so it really drives me nuts to hear the 4th year students say things like “I couldn’t imagine my life without surgery,”.... well, you were doing just fine without it 4 years ago so is that really true? Same for those saying “Derm clinic would be hell.” Really? 400K at 9-5, M-Th no call minimal stress is hell? Take a look at yourself in the mirror and see what you’ve become.

Anyways, sure if someone’s passionate about some specialty and it fits with the rest of the things they want then great - they will probably have a great career and be fulfilled. But if you don’t get that specialty, a lack of passion for some other field is OK. For others, other aspects of the job are more important in creating the overall work/life balance they desire. There seems to be some fixed belief that all doctors are/must be passionate about their job because of the “sacrifice” they make and will go to great lengths for their job because it’s their “calling.” Well, I sacrifice to make bank and buy a boat, that’s all. If I can help people in one way or another along the way, even better.

EDIT: just to add, I’m not implying that you hate your job. You can enjoy something without it being your passion.
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You have a luxury in medicine to practice what you like as long as you have the stats.
Depending on what you are looking for lifestyle, money, passion whatever there are multiple fields you can pick from.
No reason to be in misery doing what you hate when there are so many options.
Most working class don't really have the luxury of choosing because their skillsets are limited.

For some people they would be ok doing whatever they want and those people should prioritize other things that are important to them.

But for some people, it does matter what they are doing at their work. If this wasn't the case, all the 250s and 260s would be in derm, ortho etc. But that is not really the case. Many 250s and 260s apply to fields like IM, FM, Peds, etc.
 
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You get fat in rads residency, but you have time to workout and pressure to look good during derm residency.

and, uh, I'm pretty sure EM has a much greater burnout in general than rads. Even working as an ER scribe, I felt burnt out in a year on a full time schedule. I can't imagine doing that the rest of my life.
 
I’m amazed at how much I read on this site about lifestyle. There are 7:30-5 M-F jobs in corporations with smart people making a 150-250k/yr. There’s no 9-12 weeks off or even the other crazy stuff I read about here (16 weeks off wth?) since when is this supposed to be so much about lifestyle? And then folks wonder why the pay is also flopping and PE money is swallowing up PP?

sorry I know I’m EM perusing the wrong thread but I came across this and couldn’t look away. I’ll go now! Thx
 
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ER BlueBlood said:
I’m amazed at how much I read on this site about lifestyle. There are 7:30-5 M-F jobs in corporations with smart people making a 150-250k/yr. There’s no 9-12 weeks off or even the other crazy stuff I read about here (16 weeks off wth?) since when is this supposed to be so much about lifestyle? And then folks wonder why the pay is also flopping and PE money is swallowing up PP?

sorry I know I’m EM perusing the wrong thread but I came across this and couldn’t look away. I’ll go now! Thx
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Well I can tell you from witnessing it firsthand that the people making ~200k working 9-5 in FAANG are not mentally exerting themselves all day, every day in the same way that rads and ER docs are. Much less taxing shifts
 
ER BlueBlood said:
I’m amazed at how much I read on this site about lifestyle. There are 7:30-5 M-F jobs in corporations with smart people making a 150-250k/yr. There’s no 9-12 weeks off or even the other crazy stuff I read about here (16 weeks off wth?) since when is this supposed to be so much about lifestyle? And then folks wonder why the pay is also flopping and PE money is swallowing up PP?

sorry I know I’m EM perusing the wrong thread but I came across this and couldn’t look away. I’ll go now! Thx
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I mean the EM docs are the biggest offenders. Work 3 days a week for a 300k salary.
 
7331poas said:
I mean the EM docs are the biggest offenders. Work 3 days a week for a 300k salary.
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It is interesting that EM has so much talk of burnout when they're usually at the bottom of the list in terms of annual hours. I guess 3 exhausting shifts with weird hours can be much more demanding than beancounting in a cubicle M-F.
 
efle said:
Well I can tell you from witnessing it firsthand that the people making ~200k working 9-5 in FAANG are not mentally exerting themselves all day, every day in the same way that rads and ER docs are. Much less taxing shifts
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And derm is exerting itself ?
 
7331poas said:
I mean the EM docs are the biggest offenders. Work 3 days a week for a 300k salary.
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200k/yr + benefits, 2 nights/wk (16 hrs)... One of the physicians I worked with in the ED when I was doing my EM rotation as an IM resident. Can not get any better than that.
 
Splenda88 said:
200k/yr + benefits, 2 nights/wk (16 hrs)... One of the physicians I worked with in the ED when I was doing my EM rotation as an IM resident. Can not get any better than that.
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That’s fine and well, I guess my comment was more overarching in that I would bet 30 years ago there was not a detailed discussion of lifestyle for every specialty. It’s absurd to hear medical students and even premeds discussing lifestyle choices and what they think is right for them. I’m not trying to be some boomer “kids these days” attending but dang. I don’t think other fields or entrepreneurs and discussing how many weeks off they get . Yet here we are asking why they can’t figure out how in the world the days of $500k+ are disappearing yet want no call, several months off etc

I remember dealing with our OBGYN for my wife, the whole practice behaved like vacation rotation vehicle and yup, their hasty decisions during delivery caused major complications. Rant over.
 
ExcitatorySynapse said:
Isn't it more like 2 years, because fellowships are practically required for Rads?

That being said, 10 hours in an optho clinic was enough to tell me that I never want to do anything where you see 40+ patients a day. Also, my skin isn't good enough for derm.
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Practically required? Not really.

About 80% of rads did a fellowship after the 09 recession, but so do 80% of gen surg and ortho residents. Do people say ortho is practically a 6 year residency? No, because you can easily get a job outside of academics and if you aren't hellbent on a specific big city. Same with rads.

As for derm, clinic is a hard no for some people. I may be biased, but I'd take countless images any day.
 
zero0 said:
Practically required? Not really.

About 80% of rads did a fellowship after the 09 recession, but so do 80% of gen surg and ortho residents. Do people say ortho is practically a 6 year residency? No, because you can easily get a job outside of academics and if you aren't hellbent on a specific big city. Same with rads.

As for derm, clinic is a hard no for some people. I may be biased, but I'd take countless images any day.
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are people able to easily get jobs in radiology without a fellowship?
 
ER BlueBlood said:
That’s fine and well, I guess my comment was more overarching in that I would bet 30 years ago there was not a detailed discussion of lifestyle for every specialty. It’s absurd to hear medical students and even premeds discussing lifestyle choices and what they think is right for them. I’m not trying to be some boomer “kids these days” attending but dang. I don’t think other fields or entrepreneurs and discussing how many weeks off they get . Yet here we are asking why they can’t figure out how in the world the days of $500k+ are disappearing yet want no call, several months off etc

I remember dealing with our OBGYN for my wife, the whole practice behaved like vacation rotation vehicle and yup, their hasty decisions during delivery caused major complications. Rant over.
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I think that this is much more prevalent in medicine for 3 reasons:
1. The variability in lifestyle and pay between specialties is much more vast than in most fields.
2. Once you choose a specialty you are essentially locked in for the rest of your career, which isn't the case in the vast majority of other career options.
3. Other fields don't require such a long training period with such low pay before the "light at the end of the tunnel."

With that said, lifestyle is certainly a major factor in fields other than medicine and those people are 100% concerned with how much time off they get, what kind of perks their job offers, etc.
 
T687 said:
I think that this is much more prevalent in medicine for 3 reasons:
1. The variability in lifestyle and pay between specialties is much more vast than in most fields.
2. Once you choose a specialty you are essentially locked in for the rest of your career, which isn't the case in the vast majority of other career options.
3. Other fields don't require such a long training period with such low pay before the "light at the end of the tunnel."

With that said, lifestyle is certainly a major factor in fields other than medicine and those people are 100% concerned with how much time off they get, what kind of perks their job offers, etc.
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I think one of the points is that many in medicine compare the field to banking/consulting/corporate law/etc. and make the point that those careers makes significantly high salaries while requiring much less education. But what they fail to recognize is that in those high paying careers there is no "light at the end of the tunnel". If you are a Partner or Managing Director in banking or at a top consulting firm you are pulling 80+ hour weeks your entire career, with almost every vacation being one where you are still taking a few conference calls and replying to emails. Sure, lifestyle is way better in lower paying corporate functions ($150-250k, lets say), but it's a bit absurd for doctors to want to make big bucks like bankers/corp lawyers/etc. and have months off of work and take no call. This isn't the reality in any profession.
 
zero0 said:
Practically required? Not really.

About 80% of rads did a fellowship after the 09 recession, but so do 80% of gen surg and ortho residents. Do people say ortho is practically a 6 year residency? No, because you can easily get a job outside of academics and if you aren't hellbent on a specific big city. Same with rads.

As for derm, clinic is a hard no for some people. I may be biased, but I'd take countless images any day.
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Somebody who knows more than me can correct if this is wrong, but from what I understand about ortho a fellowship is basically required to practice in even a semi-desirable location. For those wanting to practice in truly desirable cities, two fellowships is becoming more and more common.
 
numbersloth said:
I think one of the points is that many in medicine compare the field to banking/consulting/corporate law/etc. and make the point that those careers makes significantly high salaries while requiring much less education. But what they fail to recognize is that in those high paying careers there is no "light at the end of the tunnel". If you are a Partner or Managing Director in banking or at a top consulting firm you are pulling 80+ hour weeks your entire career, with almost every vacation being one where you are still taking a few conference calls and replying to emails. Sure, lifestyle is way better in lower paying corporate functions ($150-250k, lets say), but it's a bit absurd for doctors to want to make big bucks like bankers/corp lawyers/etc. and have months off of work and take no call. This isn't the reality in any profession.
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I mostly agree with this but I don't think it's absurd for doctors to make the same as those professions for less work because physicians are significantly less replaceable and require significantly more time to train. IMO, the bar for what it takes to be competent in banking and consulting is significantly lower than what it takes to be a competent physician. I was specifically thinking of consulting and investment banking when I made the point about being locked into a specialty because many people go into those fields with the intention of grinding it out for a while and then going to a more lifestyle friendly position once they've made some bank and have a great resume and connections. If they don't, and they choose to stay in those fields and are successful, their earning potential is also significantly higher than the average in busy medical specialties.

Medicine is more like if when you were getting your MBA you had to decide if you were going to be locked into IB/Consulting or a normal corporate position for the rest of your career, knowing that you would never change. If residents were making 200k a year my perspective would be different, but they don't. I was in consulting before medicine and working 80 hour weeks was much easier knowing that I was not only getting paid a lot but also getting tons of perks like airline miles, free great food, great hotel stays, etc. I also never worked for 24+ hours straight or alternated days and nights or dealt with any of the social or physical challenges of medicine.

Is advocating for a million dollars a year with 3 months off and no weekends or call reasonable? Of course not, but I don't think that's what most people are talking about when they talk about wanting a good lifestyle and good pay.
 
T687 said:
Is advocating for a million dollars a year with 3 months off and no weekends or call reasonable? Of course not, but I don't think that's what most people are talking about when they talk about wanting a good lifestyle and good pay.
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But if you're happy with half a million per year with 3 months off and separate coverage for nights/weekends? Then you can come on down to radiology!
 
T687 said:
I mostly agree with this but I don't think it's absurd for doctors to make the same as those professions for less work because physicians are significantly less replaceable and require significantly more time to train. IMO, the bar for what it takes to be competent in banking and consulting is significantly lower than what it takes to be a competent physician. I was specifically thinking of consulting and investment banking when I made the point about being locked into a specialty because many people go into those fields with the intention of grinding it out for a while and then going to a more lifestyle friendly position once they've made some bank and have a great resume and connections. If they don't, and they choose to stay in those fields and are successful, their earning potential is also significantly higher than the average in busy medical specialties.

Medicine is more like if when you were getting your MBA you had to decide if you were going to be locked into IB/Consulting or a normal corporate position for the rest of your career, knowing that you would never change. If residents were making 200k a year my perspective would be different, but they don't. I was in consulting before medicine and working 80 hour weeks was much easier knowing that I was not only getting paid a lot but also getting tons of perks like airline miles, free great food, great hotel stays, etc. I also never worked for 24+ hours straight or alternated days and nights or dealt with any of the social or physical challenges of medicine.

Is advocating for a million dollars a year with 3 months off and no weekends or call reasonable? Of course not, but I don't think that's what most people are talking about when they talk about wanting a good lifestyle and good pay.
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I 100% agree that residents should be paid more and get better benefits, somewhat similar to analyst/new grad positions in finance or consulting. However, when it comes to attending positions, there is definitely flexibility to choose your lifestyle based on what job you take (location, PP vs. academics, etc.). Just like people can choose to leave the grind of banking for a lower salary with much better lifestyle or stick it out and continue to work their tush off until they retire.

I also wouldn't underestimate the physical toll top law and banking jobs take. Frequent all nighters, often traveling to other time zones once you reach a certain seniority, sitting all day, every day, without time for exercise, even having to do two separate corporate dinners in one night ("power dinners"). I'm not saying it's the same as medicine because I think residency is a challenge few other professions can really compare to. But I also wouldn't say the lifestyle in those high flying positions is at all healthy. Take a look at senior people in those positions - they all look 10 years older than they actually are.

Guess all I'm trying to say is, yes, medicine (and especially residency) has a lot of room for improvement, but there is a very exaggerated and misplaced "grass is greener" mentality that I see from those in medicine, especially when it comes to comparing it to top paying law, banking, and consulting jobs.
 
FindersFee5 said:
Somebody who knows more than me can correct if this is wrong, but from what I understand about ortho a fellowship is basically required to practice in even a semi-desirable location. For those wanting to practice in truly desirable cities, two fellowships is becoming more and more common.
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Thing is not many people know that. Everybody likes to harp on radiology training commonly being 6 years without acknowledging that fellowship creep is a much broader issue affecting many fields, and one that often gets overshadowed by more popular threats like midlevels and private equity. Big academia, in its never ending quest for cheap labor, is contributing just as much to the destruction of medicine. Honestly I can't even blame people for not wanting to be doctors anymore and opting for the easier midlevel route when you continually have to train longer and longer, meanwhile reimbursement keeps dropping. I could write a thesis on the many issues in medicine and how they all help perpetuate each other if I thought it would do anybody any good.

7331poas said:
are people able to easily get jobs in radiology without a fellowship?
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A job? Yes. Even after COVID. And with teleradiology becoming an increasingly attractive option you can pick the city of your choice to live in. However, if you have something very specific in mind you're going to need a fellowship to make yourself competitive.
 
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zero0 said:
Big academia, in its never ending quest for cheap labor, is contributing just as much to the destruction of medicine. Honestly I can't even blame people for not wanting to be doctors anymore and opting for the easier midlevel route when you continually have to train longer and longer, meanwhile reimbursement keeps dropping. I could write a thesis on the many issues in medicine and how they all help perpetuate each other if I thought it would do anybody any good.
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Do you also think this has to do with who we are selecting to enter medical school though? On the pre-medical side, we're basically rewarding undergrads who are heavily focused on basic science, and increasingly requiring research, who end up being the same types who want to do multiple fellowships at powerhouse academic centers and normalizing longer and longer graduated medical education. I personally think some of this could be resolved by having more medical schools focused on admitting students who are less research, even less "science", and more clinically focused. (Admittedly, in practice I realize this is hard to do as many students will play the part to get their foot in the door)
 
numbersloth said:
Do you also think this has to do with who we are selecting to enter medical school though? On the pre-medical side, we're basically rewarding undergrads who are heavily focused on basic science, and increasingly requiring research, who end up being the same types who want to do multiple fellowships at powerhouse academic centers and normalizing longer and longer graduated medical education. I personally think some of this could be resolved by having more medical schools focused on admitting students who are less research, even less "science", and more clinically focused. (Admittedly, in practice I realize this is hard to do as many students will play the part to get their foot in the door)
Click to expand...
Not to mention that an extra year of research during medical school is becoming increasingly common for applicants to the competitive specialties. It is sort of nonsensical when you think about it, especially for fields like Derm that are overwhelmingly sending people into private practice jobs where they'll never touch research.
 
efle said:
Not to mention that an extra year of research during medical school is becoming increasingly common for applicants to the competitive specialties. It is sort of nonsensical when you think about it, especially for fields like Derm that are overwhelmingly sending people into private practice jobs where they'll never touch research.
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Derm still prides itself to be an academic, research heavy specialty according to @PhillyMed777
 
Lawpy said:
Derm still prides itself to be an academic, research heavy specialty according to @PhillyMed777
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yes, we do like research a lot, true
If you don't like actually doing the research, it's still quite nice to be updated on "hot topics" and apply them in real life. this is helpful during the three years of derm residency, regardless of where you end up after.

Yes, most people go into private >> academics. That's the case for the whole of medicine. But things are becoming interesting in Derm on an academic level, so we are trying to get people interested in that stuff more than ever before. Even if we send a few more into academics, it makes a big difference. You can take an "academic mindset" where you keep up with journals/reading with you to private practice too.
 
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numbersloth said:
Do you also think this has to do with who we are selecting to enter medical school though? On the pre-medical side, we're basically rewarding undergrads who are heavily focused on basic science, and increasingly requiring research, who end up being the same types who want to do multiple fellowships at powerhouse academic centers and normalizing longer and longer graduated medical education. I personally think some of this could be resolved by having more medical schools focused on admitting students who are less research, even less "science", and more clinically focused. (Admittedly, in practice I realize this is hard to do as many students will play the part to get their foot in the door)
Click to expand...
Possibly but from what I've seen the number of med students who genuinely enjoy research is low. It's mostly just another hoop to jump through. The reality is there's an ever intensifying arms race going on for competitive specialties. It'll only get worse as more and more people fight to get in to the few specialties that haven't been overrun by CMGs and midlevels.
 
slowthai said:
Shh...please. I kid, lol.

I don't think derm volume can compare to rads volume. The mental effort required to interpret these images at such a breakneck pace is orders of magnitude higher than seeing your bread and butter derm pts.

Also, read the entirety of this thread:
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My favorite comment:

F44FB5F4-64B8-431A-A647-A382D96E85CF.jpeg
 
slowthai said:
They love to spam that SDN is only doomsday crap on there and twitter. That and that we're all gunners. Too dumb, lol
Click to expand...

Yeah. Meanwhile, Reddit can be such a cesspool. And Twitter is endless virtue signaling and a race to see who can be the workest.
 
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