Why did those who did not take USMLE choose to do so?

[zany_brainy]

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It works. Didn't even need to cram OMM and bailed on COMBANK early on. Just a few Chapman points and some cranial for a couple of hours the afternoon before. But our school did a pretty good job prepping us for OPP during preclinical.

Yup, I was in the same boat. My OPP instructor did a great job preparing our class for the exam, so I just reviewed chapman points and autonomic levels and I was good to go.

 

[hallowmann]

I'm an HPSP student, and after talking with multiple military PD's, they've all told me not to take USMLE. They've said it's totally not necessary and that I should save my money.
I saw someone else's post earlier where he ended up choosing a speciality that the navy didn't need so he ended up applying in the civilian world. I understand that's always a risk.
I'm still on the fence. Finances ARE a factor for us, and that is a very tempting factor to not take the USMLE. However, it would be nice to keep all options open.

Other thought:
I wonder if focusing on USMLE prep can reduce ones potential COMLEX score?

The military is a different situation (everyone I know has said the same thing). If you are certain you are going with the mil match, I'd forget about taking the USMLE. Save time and money. The military match is a different world and DOs are generally viewed as equivalent in that world. Now if you ever planned to go civilian for your residency, then things would be completely different, because there absolutely is discrimination and an overall preference for US MDs and the USMLE.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

1. So if I apply for Military Urology or Derm, do I have the similar chance as an MD to get it with similar stats?

2. Why don't we just petition for the COMLEX to adopt the USMLE scale?
I don't blame PDs for not wanting to bother trying to decipher a test score for a branch of medicine s/he's not part of, on top of being nice enough to allow non-LCME graduates to train in his/her program. So to those who wanna complain, please stop acting self-entitled.

 

[67552931811]

1. So if I apply for Military Urology or Derm, do I have the similar chance as an MD to get it with similar stats?

2. Why don't we just petition for the COMLEX to adopt the USMLE scale?
I don't blame PDs for not wanting to bother trying to decipher a test score for a branch of medicine s/he's not part of, on top of being nice enough to allow non-LCME graduates to train in his/her program. So to those who wanna complain, please stop acting self-entitled.

In the military it is a point system. Degree is meaningless.

 

[user3]

I think 210-215 is pretty typical for most DO students. The average mcat for DOs is lower than MDs, so you'd expect the average usmle to be lower, too. Maybe 20-30 people in my class got in the 220-240s. Four or five of us got above a 240. The rest were below average. My school didn't teach for the boards or encourage us to take the usmle, though.

uh oh...can of worms opened.

 

[Dharma]

Was also not doing good on NBME exams, but interestingly the uworld exams were good, I think I have ADHD as well and would not be able to focus so long on the question stems.

UWorld is a learning tool and an awesome one at that if used properly. In fact, it's so good, that folks should consider using it regardless of the fact that they won't be taking the USMLE. I learned and solidified an enormous amount of material because of it. (Cough up the bucks and get it folks).

But IMO it is not a means to gauge where you stand. NBME's on the other hand are pretty darn accurate for that purpose. I took 3 and my average was my exact USMLE score. n =1 but from what I've read from others, they do a good job letting you know what's up.

 

[Dharma]

Just wanted clarification, since people who will research this issue in the future should be aware of the negative impact of a lackluster score.

I agree with your sentiment though - train for the USMLE year 1 and 2. I wish I did that along with using Qbanks alongside classes and supplementing FA with class notes. Lots I would do differently. I wouldn't go so far as to say COMLEX is a joke (I studied for both COMLEX exams, scored well, and emerged a stronger student after the process), but USMLE is definitely the gold standard.

Agree. I should have clarified. By "bailing" (in the original post) I was referring to folks who prepped well, did ok on a few NMBE's (or never even took them bc fear bit them early) and then talked themselves out of taking the exam out of fear. I know at least 3 really solid students (better test takers than me) who did this. They are perpetually kicking themselves in the rear for letting their fears get the best of them.

Was I a bit nervous about taking it? Did I worry about taking the gamble? You bet. And I almost bailed regardless of my prep. So close. I just don't want folks making that mistake.

I want younger students to know that they should go in, on day one of med school, with USMLE in their game plan. And when administration and other students try to throw justification for not taking the exam at them, to remember to analyze such words with a healthy dose of skepticism and resist the temptation to make their lives easier (in the short term) by only taking the exam required of them… UNTIL performance (backed by practice exams) proves otherwise. If they really think they are up to par with their MD counterparts (academically speaking) and have even the slightest inclination of possibly attending an ACGME program (especially in certain regions), they need to show it.

This is coming from a guy who will most likely end up in FM (because it's been by far what I enjoy the most). And even in this so-called non-competitive field, the competition is hot at the solid programs and taking the USMLE will keep doors open that would be closed otherwise. Options wide open.

 

[as90]

Agree. I should have clarified. By "bailing" (in the original post) I was referring to folks who prepped well, did ok on a few NMBE's (or never even took them bc fear bit them early) and then talked themselves out of taking the exam out of fear. I know at least 3 really solid students (better test takers than me) who did this. They are perpetually kicking themselves in the rear for letting their fears get the best of them.

Was I a bit nervous about taking it? Did I worry about taking the gamble? You bet. And I almost bailed regardless of my prep. So close. I just don't want folks making that mistake.

I want younger students to know that they should go in, on day one of med school, with USMLE in their game plan. And when administration and other students try to throw justification for not taking the exam at them, to remember to analyze such words with a healthy dose of skepticism and resist the temptation to make their lives easier (in the short term) by only taking the exam required of them… UNTIL performance (backed by practice exams) proves otherwise. If they really think they are up to par with their MD counterparts (academically speaking) and have even the slightest inclination of possibly attending an ACGME program (especially in certain regions), they need to show it.

This is coming from a guy who will most likely end up in FM (because it's been by far what I enjoy the most). And even in this so-called non-competitive field, the competition is hot at the solid programs and taking the USMLE will keep doors open that would be closed otherwise. Options wide open.

I agree with almost everything you have written, but does this mean that someone who got into an ACGME program on COMLEX alone, does not deserve to be a physician?

I am a poor test taker and a slow reader, but my working knowledge, is quite decent, at least that is what I have been told by my attendings. Am I, really , less of a physician because I did not take the USMLE?

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I agree with almost everything you have written, but does this mean that someone who got into an ACGME program on COMLEX alone, does not deserve to be a physician?

I am a poor test taker and a slow reader, but my working knowledge, is quite decent, at least that is what I have been told by my attendings. Am I, really , less of a physician because I did not take the USMLE?

Where did he say about not deserving to be physicians?

 

[meliora27]

I was recently at an interview at what is regarded in SDN-speak as an upper, mid-tier ACGME university program. I was the only DO at the interview. Each class (IM) had roughly 40 residents, so out of a housestaff of 120 there were ZERO DO's. One of my interviewers went so far as to thank me twice for taking the USMLE (and doing well on it) as that was what allowed me to interview. Other DO applicants apparently applied with only COMLEX scores and I assume they did not even get an interview. DO discrimination is alive and well, don't kid yourself. Not only are we patently shut out of many of the top programs in many fields, but even certain "mid tier programs", as a matter of stated policy, do not accept DO's.

Taking, and doing well, on the USMLE is going to open doors.

 

[W19]

TAKE THE USMLE. Period. Go in to day 1 of med school KNOWING you will. No bailing. No b-ing out last minute.

WHY? Because when it comes time to Match and you're aiming at an ACGME program… and it comes down to you (the student who took the USMLE) and another DO student (who didn't), guess who looks better.

And I don't want to hear about all of these ACGME programs that "accept" the COMLEX. Great. Doesn't mean they prefer it. Regardless, you'll still be competing against those of us who sat for the more difficult exam and showed a little more UMPH! by doing so. No offense. But that's how it is.
Choose wisely.

People usually describe the two exams (Step1 and COMLEX) as being different--not one more difficult than the other...

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

People usually describe the two exams (Step1 and COMLEX) as being different--not one more difficult than the other...

Exactly COMLEX tests you mostly on test taking strategy.
USMLE tests you on your knowledge

 

[zany_brainy]

People usually describe the two exams (Step1 and COMLEX) as being different--not one more difficult than the other...

One isn't more difficult than the other. I thought they were difficult for their own reasons. COMLEX was difficult in the sense that a good number of questions are vague, and you aren't sure what they want from you. USMLE was difficult in the sense that the questions required you to sift through a ton of detail and actually think about the answer.

 

[zany_brainy]

Exactly COMLEX tests you mostly on test taking strategy.
USMLE tests you on your knowledge

I actually felt the opposite. The COMLEX questions relied on buzzwords and classic findings in diseases, so if you were able to memorize first aid and savarese, you could do quite well.

I found that for a lot of the medium/hard questions on the USMLE, I was able to narrow it down to 2 choices and I needed my test taking intuition to pick the one I thought was "more" right.

 

[RadsonRads]

I agree whole heartedly with everything Dharma has to say. Enter school on day 1 with the mindset of taking usmle. Don't look back.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I actually felt the opposite. The COMLEX questions relied on buzzwords and classic findings in diseases, so if you were able to memorize first aid and savarese, you could do quite well.

I found that for a lot of the medium/hard questions on the USMLE, I was able to narrow it down to 2 choices and I needed my test taking intuition to pick the one I thought was "more" right.

I had exactly the opposite experience. When I went back over questions I missed on the test:

The majority of the time if I was between 2 answers I found on the USMLE it was due to my lack of knowledge on the subject; whereas with the COMLEX many times it was do to a poorly written question.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I'm just curious why some of you guys chose not to take USMLE? For the record, not using this as an attack tactic, I just want to know as I, too, did not take it. I am glad that I did not do so as it was not a requirement for me to become a physician.

The reason I bring this up is because I feel like I'm the only DO student in my school and in the west coast who has not taken it at all. I am auditioning and interviewing for psychiatry allopathic programs and at a recent interview, I was given the impression that I was not really considered a "real doctor" because I chose not to spend $500 , spend $300 for uworld, to take one test.

Passing and taking the COMLEX was all that was required of me to earn my degree and to practice medicine. I do not see any point in taking another exam (for me at least).

Some may disagree with me saying the comlex is vague, but it is all that you need to get your DO degree and when you applied to DO schools, you knew that you were getting a DO degree, not an MD degree.

I'm curious where this was. I'm guessing California, as I interviewed nearly everywhere else but and never got this feeling. I did have a solid USMLE score but I'm not sure how one test would change someone's bias against the degree.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I was recently at an interview at what is regarded in SDN-speak as an upper, mid-tier ACGME university program. I was the only DO at the interview. Each class (IM) had roughly 40 residents, so out of a housestaff of 120 there were ZERO DO's. One of my interviewers went so far as to thank me twice for taking the USMLE (and doing well on it) as that was what allowed me to interview. Other DO applicants apparently applied with only COMLEX scores and I assume they did not even get an interview. DO discrimination is alive and well, don't kid yourself. Not only are we patently shut out of many of the top programs in many fields, but even certain "mid tier programs", as a matter of stated policy, do not accept DO's.

Taking, and doing well, on the USMLE is going to open doors.

If you don't mind, what were your scores? And did you have research experience in med school?

 

[RadsonRads]

I went on one interview at a top tier academic institution and he asked me why I took 2 board exams. He had no clue what the comlex was, but he didn't care because I had both USMLE scores accompanying it

 

[meliora27]

If you don't mind, what were your scores? And did you have research experience in med school?

Scored above the national average

I had a summer of bench research between M1/M2 year. I also had 1 publication and 3 posters. I had a 4th poster from a different project that I worked on that was accepted to a big GI conference after I submitted ERAS.

Interviewers at some of the more copmetitive places have commented that having research and 2 LOR's from large academic centers where I did away rotations helped my application.

 

[Dharma]

People usually describe the two exams (Step1 and COMLEX) as being different--not one more difficult than the other...

A lot do. I thought the USMLE was a more difficult exam though. Walked out of the COMLEX scratching my head thinking "is that it?"

 

[Dharma]

I agree with almost everything you have written, but does this mean that someone who got into an ACGME program on COMLEX alone, does not deserve to be a physician?

I am a poor test taker and a slow reader, but my working knowledge, is quite decent, at least that is what I have been told by my attendings. Am I, really , less of a physician because I did not take the USMLE?

No. But possibly less competitive in this game we have to play. Unfortunately a part of the game has zero to do with how good of a physician we will be.

 

[meliora27]

Thinking out loud here, but with the ABIM pass rate on the decline nationally (I think it's just under 80%), a strong USMLE score may assuage any doubts a PD may have about your ability to pass your IM boards at the end of residency.

 

[DocVapor]

I have to echo Dharma. All I knew going into med school was that USMLE was happening no matter what. I didn't do as well as I thought I had coming out of either of them, but chances are my Average USMLE + Average COMLEX makes me more competitive at many (or most) ACGME programs than someone with only a 600 COMLEX.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I have to echo Dharma. All I knew going into med school was that USMLE was happening no matter what. I didn't do as well as I thought I had coming out of either of them, but chances are my Average USMLE + Average COMLEX makes me more competitive at many (or most) ACGME programs than someone with only a 600 COMLEX.

Is there something you would've done differently to boost your USMLE score in retrospect?

 

[Back 5]

During a site visit by the AOA President, he was asked about the COMLEX and USMLE exams and the merger (apparently he hates the term merger). At any rate, after a lot of saying a lot of words with little meaning, he said the COMLEX isn't going anywhere and will remain relevant for DO students.

So, continue to prepare for 2 exams.

 

[DocVapor]

Is there something you would've done differently to boost your USMLE score in retrospect?

Probably scheduled it a few weeks later and split the extra time between studying and taking more weekends off. I was already pushing being burnt out walking in.

 

[JRO38]

.

 

[ari202]

I'm curious where this was. I'm guessing California, as I interviewed nearly everywhere else but and never got this feeling. I did have a solid USMLE score but I'm not sure how one test would change someone's bias against the degree.

You got it! The Golden state has such little tolerance for the comlex

 

[ari202]

1. So if I apply for Military Urology or Derm, do I have the similar chance as an MD to get it with similar stats?

2. Why don't we just petition for the COMLEX to adopt the USMLE scale?
I don't blame PDs for not wanting to bother trying to decipher a test score for a branch of medicine s/he's not part of, on top of being nice enough to allow non-LCME graduates to train in his/her program. So to those who wanna complain, please stop acting self-entitled.

I'm not acting self entitled, it was the PD's choice to invite me to come for an interview on the basis of my comlex scores and the non-LCME acreddited institution that I graduated from. I didn't force anyone and I am not acting self-entitled.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I'm not acting self entitled, it was the PD's choice to invite me to come for an interview on the basis of my comlex scores and the non-LCME acreddited institution that I graduated from. I didn't force anyone and I am not acting self-entitled.

Did the shoe fit? I don't recall quoting your testimony and saying that you personally are behaving self-entitled.

 

[ari202]

Did the shoe fit? I don't recall quoting your testimony and saying that you personally are behaving self-entitled.

no but you are implying that anyone who did not take the USMLE and expects an interview at an ACGME program is self entitled.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

no but you are implying that anyone who did not take the USMLE and expects an interview at an ACGME program is self entitled.

I mentioned that those who did not take the USMLE and complained about MD programs not wanting to consider COMLEX scores shouldn't be complaining and acting like its owed to them, thus, self-entitled.

Those who understand and expect some doors closed and are OK about it without whining, I don't consider them self-entitled.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

You got it! The Golden state has such little tolerance for the comlex

They barely have tolerance for DOs. This isn't surpising. Imo you'd probably be better going to a state that hasn't been governed by one of the more brainless/talentless movie stars of the 80s/90s.

It's a shame they have so many solid psych residencies.

 

[hallowmann]

No. But possibly less competitive in this game we have to play. Unfortunately a part of the game has zero to do with how good of a physician we will be.

This is exactly it. Stop talking about "quality as a physician" and start realizing that most of the career is about jumping through hoops. Some things make you more competitive, some things make you less. Sure going to Penn State as opposed to Pitt for med school might not mean you're a worse doc, both fulfill what they need to do to practice, but the Pitt grad is still going to look better than the PSU grad.

 

[ari202]

I mentioned that those who did not take the USMLE and complained about MD programs not wanting to consider COMLEX scores shouldn't be complaining and acting like its owed to them, thus, self-entitled.

Those who understand and expect some doors closed and are OK about it without whining, I don't consider them self-entitled.

Ok. I apologize for the misinterpretation. However, I still feel that if a program is going to take a DO they should be able to take them with the comlex and not require the USMLE. on the NBOME website it even states that 3/4 of all acgme programs take the usmle.

 

[koan]

Ok. I apologize for the misinterpretation. However, I still feel that if a program is going to take a DO they should be able to take them with the comlex and not require the USMLE. on the NBOME website it even states that 3/4 of all acgme programs take the usmle.

Lol. Wishful thinking by the nbome. They might look at comlex but it doesn't mean they are offering interviews at a comparable threshold. Or at all. Programs don't care what we think they should do. Unless you're a rock star or from a name-brand school, they hold the cards in the Match.

 

[user3]

I'm not acting self entitled, it was the PD's choice to invite me to come for an interview on the basis of my comlex scores and the non-LCME acreddited institution that I graduated from. I didn't force anyone and I am not acting self-entitled.

Do you still think this argument holds despite ACGME now technically representing both MD and DO students?

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Why don't we just petition for the COMLEX to adopt the USMLE scale?

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Ok. I apologize for the misinterpretation. However, I still feel that if a program is going to take a DO they should be able to take them with the comlex and not require the USMLE. on the NBOME website it even states that 3/4 of all acgme programs take the usmle.

Many will take you with just COMLEX, the fact remains USMLE will just make you more competitive.

 

[ari202]

Why don't we just petition for the COMLEX to adopt the USMLE scale?

I agree why not end the limbo. At least make a score converter.

 

[hallowmann]

I agree why not end the limbo. At least make a score converter.

They made one. It hasn't been updated in years. It devalues USMLE scores by something like 10-15 points... yeah...

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Why don't we just petition for the COMLEX to adopt the USMLE scale?

Why not petition to get rid of the exam all together?

Have everybody take one standardized licensing test, the USMLE. Replace COMLEX by an exam that assesses OMM knowledge and skills that all DO students must pass in order to graduate.

 

[meliora27]

Why not petition to get rid of the exam all together?

Have everybody take one standardized licensing test, the USMLE. Replace COMLEX by an exam that assesses OMM knowledge and skills that all DO students must pass in order to graduate.

The O$teopathic establishment would not go for this

Perhaps the public could insist however that all doctor's be required to take the same board examination and that could help put an end to COMLEX.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

The O$teopathic establishment would not go for this

Perhaps the public could insist however that all doctor's be required to take the same board examination and that could help put an end to COMLEX.

I understand the financial implications. That's why I suggested a replacement. Another test that focuses on OMM. Let them charge the same price too.

 

[SLC]

They barely have tolerance for DOs. This isn't surpising. Imo you'd probably be better going to a state that hasn't been governed by one of the more brainless/talentless movie stars of the 80s/90s.

It's a shame they have so many solid psych residencies.

Is it a shock though? I have to think that the psychiatric pathology available in California is unparalleled anywhere else.

 

[microshar88]

Is it a shock though? I have to think that the psychiatric pathology available in California is unparalleled anywhere else.

Ain't that the truth.