why do good programs go unfilled?

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kat82

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hey guys! congrats on everyone matching, i hope you are all enjoying the post-match bliss

just curious- why do you think it is that some programs go unfilled? i was surprised to see that sinai/pitt/yale all went unfilled this year. i thought they were good programs? is it b/c nobody wants to go there or is it because programs are snobby and dont interview/rank enough people? it surprises me in a specialty as competitive as EM

just curious! :)

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hey guys! congrats on everyone matching, i hope you are all enjoying the post-match bliss

just curious- why do you think it is that some programs go unfilled? i was surprised to see that sinai/pitt/yale all went unfilled this year. i thought they were good programs? is it b/c nobody wants to go there or is it because programs are snobby and dont interview/rank enough people? it surprises me in a specialty as competitive as EM

just curious! :)

It is the latter. Programs are snobby and don't interview enough people. I can attest to this myself, since I was not invited to a program I applied to and they were unfilled.
 
I totally agree with the latter! I also applied to some of those programs and did not receive interviews.
 
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I think you would have to make a major error error in judgement to not fill your class, even if you are not a "desirable program." You can be snobbish but still be smart. But it's not like I have any first hand knowledge.
 
In an ideal world you could interview everyone who applies. Unfortunately, there is limited resources available to interview a very large number of applicants.

There are many programs that have gone unfilled for various reasons. Some programs do not rank enough people, some programs are in geographical areas that others do not like, some programs have applicants that do not like the program, etc.

I didn't realize Pitt did not fill. Is this accurate?
 
There are various reasons that programs go unfilled.

from my observation, some are cocky or snobby and do not rank enough people. From my experience, each program has to decide who they want to rank. In some cases, they would rather scramble for a candidate instead of rank and match someone that they would not want to train. Just like there are some cases where students would rather scramble than match at a program they would be miserable in.

I have also seen an instance, where a clerical error has lead to a program going unmatched, or in the other case over matching people and then having to call in favors to place residents into new programs.
 
oops- not sure about pitt- i thought i saw that someone had mentioned it in another post but i might have misread it. either way, EM is so competitive now that i am surprised at how many open spots there were... anyway, thats interesting about programs being snobby. you would think if they were that snobby they wouldnt want to scramble but who knows how these people think!
 
I can't speak for every program, but I doubt programs are snobby for not ranking enough candidates. As I mentioned earlier, it's all about available resources. If we had all the resources available, programs would interview every applicant that applies. It simply can't happen though because there are only so many faculty available for interviews. It's actually quite difficult to arrange interview days.
 
I wonder if the problem is not enough interviews or not enough people getting ranked. I would be interested to know at places like Yale or Sinai that didn't fill what percentage of people interviewed didn't get ranked.
 
I think they meant "pitt" as Pitt County/ECU in Greenville NC - they had to scramble a few spot this year.
 
I wonder if the problem is not enough interviews or not enough people getting ranked. I would be interested to know at places like Yale or Sinai that didn't fill what percentage of people interviewed didn't get ranked.

I would presume that almost everyone interviewed is ranked, so you need to look more at the interview side....

Obviously they would rather rank the people who were the worst at their interview than people who didn't get into a residency anywhere...at least the people at the interview where qualified to be there...
 
I would presume that almost everyone interviewed is ranked, so you need to look more at the interview side....

That is not an accurate assumption. Some programs do not rank 5-10% of their interviewees

Obviously they would rather rank the people who were the worst at their interview than people who didn't get into a residency anywhere/QUOTE]

In theory yes, but often it is a symptom of the fact that the program will say, in effect, that they don't have to rank more than 100 people to fill 12 spots when this is a fault assumption on their part. It isn't that they're consciously saying that they would rather take people from the scramble vs the bottom of their interviewee pool, but rather that they think that the people they ranked liked the program better than they really did, and thus rank fewer people than they should have.
 
I would presume that almost everyone interviewed is ranked, so you need to look more at the interview side....

Obviously they would rather rank the people who were the worst at their interview than people who didn't get into a residency anywhere...at least the people at the interview where qualified to be there...

No, I'm with Bart on this one. The reason we are doing the interview is to confirm that the candidate is as good in person as on paper. Not always true. For some, we rather face the scramble than them every day for three years.:cool:
 
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In theory yes, but often it is a symptom of the fact that the program will say, in effect, that they don't have to rank more than 100 people to fill 12 spots when this is a fault assumption on their part. It isn't that they're consciously saying that they would rather take people from the scramble vs the bottom of their interviewee pool, but rather that they think that the people they ranked liked the program better than they really did, and thus rank fewer people than they should have.

If every year you rank 100 people for 12 positions, and every year you drop down to only 20 on your rank list to fill those 12 positions, it's very tempting to shorten your rank list. The problem occurs when everything doesn't follow customary patterns in the past.

Not every applicant interviewed is ranked by every program. Some programs have the philosophy that they would rather scramble for someone rather than have a particular person train at their institution for whatever reason.
 
In case anyone didn't notice, because of last year's fun, everyone seemed to rank a lot more programs this year. Check out the ROL page, there are a significant number of 16+ ranks. That really alters the dynamics.
 
As mcninja said. if more people are doing more interviews then you will have more of these problems. Here at the U of A it is so hard to get an interview we only interview like 6 people per spot whereas nationwide that number is higher.

IMO we benefit from not only being a great program but having a lot of EM folks wanting to go out west.
 
I would presume that almost everyone interviewed is ranked....

Obviously they would rather rank the people who were the worst at their interview than people who didn't get into a residency anywhere...at least the people at the interview where qualified to be there...

I would disagree with this statement. In fact, I made a point of asking those who interviewed me "how many applicants do you rank" (word to the wise, if you do choose to ask this question, risk of which may be argued either way, you'd do yoursef a big favor if you didn't pose it to the coordinator as I found their answers to be very unreliable).

In my opinion, a program should have a vision of where it is, where it intends to be, and how it plans on steering the entire field of EM given that it is a very young specialty. If they take themselves seriously, and feel that their residents actually have something to contribute in agreement with their broader goals, then they should only be ranking candidates who can foster the type of environment ripe for that type of progress. If on the other hand, their sole purpose for the interview is to get a general idea of how to rank a bunch of names, then either they don't intend on leading the field or they don't take the role of your residents very seriously since it appears that one name is as good as another. For better or for worse, this was my line of reasoning and I actually placed a good deal of import on the question.

Some of the best answers I heard on the trail were from Cinci (my new home), Indiana, Yale, and JHU. All of them said something to the effect of "we only rank those we want." To muddy the waters a bit, you'll undoubtedly hear something like this at other places as well. The thing that really separated their answer from other similar answers was that these guys clearly knew what their goals and priorities were, and didn't really care if they went unfilled. I got the sense that they were confident enough to be satisfied with 80% of thier spots filled with people who wanted to be there and had something to contribute, than 100% of thier spots filled with folks whose visions contradicted their own.

Obviously, its a problem with your vision if you go unfilled year after year. But it deserves mention that from 2003-2007, according to NRMP data that I'm sure is available somewhere on google, the following EM programs have all gone unfilled at some point: WashU, Hopkins, Mayo, Duke, LSU, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State and UMass. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone sane who'll argue that any of these are mediocre programs. But it is the risk you take when you narrow down your options. Of the programs that didn't fill this year, Yale was the only one where I interviewed. I came away very impressed, I didn't see/hear anything negative, and read nothing but positive feedback on sdn. The other interviewees were all from top-tier schools, and seemed pretty cool to hand out with. I ranked the program second b/c of a spousal job issue, and would've gladly ranked it higher absent those other factors. In the end, I don't really know if they would've ranked me, but I don't think I would've been bitter if they didn't. They had a good look at me, and if they felt that I didn't jive with where they were headed, then I think that would've been fine with me.

One last bit: I don't mean to discourage any future applicants from applying to any of the places that I've mentioned. They're selective as hell, but in a really good way. They'll do you the service of taking a really good look at you to see if you can be a part of their team. If you're gonna travel half-way across the country, the least someone can do is critically analyze you beyond the numbers. Trust me, interview season is expensive and exhausting. After your interview, the last thing you want to think is "was that interview really necessary...couldn't they just learn that from looking at my app."
 
But it deserves mention that from 2003-2007, according to NRMP data that I'm sure is available somewhere on google, the following EM programs have all gone unfilled at some point: WashU, Hopkins, Mayo, Duke, LSU, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State and UMass.
Well, Duke did it one of their early years, maybe even their first year. MSU, Michigan, and Iowa are pretty middle of the road midwestern programs, so geography makes a lot of people not apply to them.
The big issue isn't if one place has spots one year, it is if they have them consistently, then you know there might be a problem. So far, only one of those has had scramble spots two years running, so it doesn't mean much.
The honest to God answer is that they didn't interview enough people to rank enough people to fill. Regardless of whether they don't rank all they interview or don't interview enough period, that's just how it works.
 
I would presume that almost everyone interviewed is ranked, so you need to look more at the interview side....

Obviously they would rather rank the people who were the worst at their interview than people who didn't get into a residency anywhere...at least the people at the interview where qualified to be there...

Hmmm, how did CorpusERdoc end up getting banned?
 
Hmmm, how did CorpusERdoc end up getting banned?

I have asked myself that question quite a lot, even looking at his prior posts. I'm confused... :confused:

I also thought the "devil you know is better than the one you don't," but I guess PDs don't feel that way. Seems like it would be a lot easier to end up with an undesirable candidate in the scramble than taking one who may have had a bad day :confused:
 
They're selective as hell, but in a really good way. They'll do you the service of taking a really good look at you to see if you can be a part of their team. If you're gonna travel half-way across the country, the least someone can do is critically analyze you beyond the numbers.


I guess you live and die by the sword. You show up to the interview hoping they'll do you the service of a "good long look" as you put it, but in my case, it was probably to my detriment. I'm from a well known school, had great letters, am pretty normal, and my steps were in the 240s and 250s. I actually interviewed at yale, I thought it was one of my best interviews, I ranked it 1st, and when I started hearing rumors about 'em not filling, I was pretty happy for match day to roll around since it meant I was in at my top choice. I even called up my family to break the good news, my mom made me a cake with a big frosted Y, and I was looking up real estate in the area. So imagine my surprise when I opened the envelope and saw that I was headed to my second choice. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with where I'm going, but I was really thrown for a loop for about a week. I'm lucky I wasn't playing poker at the time because there was no hiding that feeling, and believe me I was trying. I don't know if there's a moral to this story, but I think its fair to say be careful what you ask for. "A good long look" is great in some ways because it matches up apples with apples and it sounds great in theory and its something everybody should be doing, but if you turn out to be an orange on match day and thought you were an apple all along, you're gonna wanna shoot somebody. Anyway, if some programs are selective like that, then I guess you gotta take your hat off to 'em because thats the way the selection and interview process should be, and I'm glad that someone is breaking the mold. I thought my numbers would be good enough to get me in, but some of the other applicants that day were also no push overs. In the end, I'm happy to hear that some programs do view interviews as important even if I got shafted in the process.

Thank god the entire process is over. Good luck to all the soon to be 4th years.
 
jeez, though, what a slap in the face! Did you write a letter of intent? Maybe they thought you weren't so interested? Just bizarre - what's done is done, but I'd be tempted to call and ask. :confused:
 
jeez, though, what a slap in the face! Did you write a letter of intent? Maybe they thought you weren't so interested? Just bizarre - what's done is done, but I'd be tempted to call and ask. :confused:
Letters of intent do not mean anything to program directors. Program directors rank applicants based on the way they want them, not the way the applicant wants the program.
 
I guess you live and die by the sword. You show up to the interview hoping they'll do you the service of a "good long look" as you put it, but in my case, it was probably to my detriment. I'm from a well known school, had great letters, am pretty normal, and my steps were in the 240s and 250s. I actually interviewed at yale, I thought it was one of my best interviews, I ranked it 1st, and when I started hearing rumors about 'em not filling, I was pretty happy for match day to roll around since it meant I was in at my top choice. I even called up my family to break the good news, my mom made me a cake with a big frosted Y, and I was looking up real estate in the area. So imagine my surprise when I opened the envelope and saw that I was headed to my second choice. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with where I'm going, but I was really thrown for a loop for about a week. I'm lucky I wasn't playing poker at the time because there was no hiding that feeling, and believe me I was trying. I don't know if there's a moral to this story, but I think its fair to say be careful what you ask for. "A good long look" is great in some ways because it matches up apples with apples and it sounds great in theory and its something everybody should be doing, but if you turn out to be an orange on match day and thought you were an apple all along, you're gonna wanna shoot somebody. Anyway, if some programs are selective like that, then I guess you gotta take your hat off to 'em because thats the way the selection and interview process should be, and I'm glad that someone is breaking the mold. I thought my numbers would be good enough to get me in, but some of the other applicants that day were also no push overs. In the end, I'm happy to hear that some programs do view interviews as important even if I got shafted in the process.

Thank god the entire process is over. Good luck to all the soon to be 4th years.


BorisTHEBlade, I'm so sorry for the hardship that the match process has caused you. You have been wronged in the worst way and nothing can ever replace that... Please tell me how exactly were you "shafted" by the match process? By having your #1 choice not rank you and you having to go through the very embarassing ordeal of actually matching at your #2 choice? I'm very sorry if I don't cry you a river and send in the grief councelor, but there are worst things in the world than matching in the specialty of your choice (be it not exactly at the place that you wanted to go). You obviously had the numbers and your application was great, but for some reason they might not have like you and did not rank you... Deal with it and enjoy the successful match that you had and look forward to the start of your intern year at your new program. Lots of competitive and solid applicants around the country did not match at all and had to scramble into a spot in anything just for a chance to reapply next year. Most of these applicants rightfully feel that they have been "shafted" by the match process or the interview process and are probably extremely sad right now and not exactly looking forward towards the start of intern year in a place or specialty that they did not want.

I'm one of those unfortunate people that applied for EM and did not match. My application was not as great as yours but I'm sure that even if it was I would still be excited to match into my #2 choice or probably into any of my top 5. I got a preliminary spot in medicine for next year and I'm not exactly thrilled to be doing a year of medicine, but if that's what I have to do to get into an EM residency program than that's what I'm going to do it. I'll be the best IM intern I can and then when I match into EM next year in whatever spot on my ROL, I'll be the happiest man on earth.
 
I actually interviewed at yale, I thought it was one of my best interviews, I ranked it 1st, and when I started hearing rumors about 'em not filling, I was pretty happy for match day to roll around since it meant I was in at my top choice.

I'm not really seeing how you were "shafted" by the process. It seems by your post that you made a very large assumption that the class not filling "meant" you were in. Fit is ultimately more important than numbers.

Sorry man, but considering there are many on this board who didn't match, and others that ended up at places lower than 2 on their list, your post comes off as if you're whining.
 
Some of the best answers I heard on the trail were from Cinci (my new home), "

Congrats on matching. PM me with any questions or for info on the 'Natti.
 
I can see what Boris is saying though. What sucks isn't not going to his number 1, but rather that his top choice would rather scramble than rank him. It's a bit of a slap in the face for somewhere that you like to not even rank you.
 
I can see what Boris is saying though. What sucks isn't not going to his number 1, but rather that his top choice would rather scramble than rank him. It's a bit of a slap in the face for somewhere that you like to not even rank you.

Right, that was my point and I'm sure Boris'. I doubt he/she was whining, just contributing to this thread's discussion in that perceived fit makes a big difference. I could see how one might think, "well, the interview went well, they might have put me at the bottom of the list but surely they wouldn't rather SCRAMBLE than have me". It's not like he's saying he's unhappy now, just making a point.

And southerndoc, I've heard (at least in other fields) that if they think you are unlikely to come because you are too competitive, etc, you might not get ranked very highly or at all. I was just speculating as to whether this could have been a possible explanation.
 
I've heard (at least in other fields) that if they think you are unlikely to come because you are too competitive, etc, you might not get ranked very highly or at all. QUOTE]

If programs use this type of logic then it still does not make sense. Even if you think that the applicant is TOO competitive for your program, then why not rank him? What does that solve? How is that a better option for the program? Let's say that a low-tier program doesn't rank an applicant based on the fact that he/she is TOO competitive relative to the usual applicants that they get but that applicant really like that place and wanted to go there regarless of perception by others. In this case the program by not ranking this applicant has just cancelled out the possibility of matching a resident who actually wants to be at their program. If this is done, I don't understand why. The same reason why I don't understand why programs make shorter and shorter lists and not ranking good applicants and ending up with unfilled spots after match and having to go through the headache of scrambling residents to their program.
 
If programs use this type of logic then it still does not make sense. Even if you think that the applicant is TOO competitive for your program, then why not rank him? What does that solve? How is that a better option for the program? Let's say that a low-tier program doesn't rank an applicant based on the fact that he/she is TOO competitive relative to the usual applicants that they get but that applicant really like that place and wanted to go there regarless of perception by others. In this case the program by not ranking this applicant has just cancelled out the possibility of matching a resident who actually wants to be at their program. If this is done, I don't understand why. The same reason why I don't understand why programs make shorter and shorter lists and not ranking good applicants and ending up with unfilled spots after match and having to go through the headache of scrambling residents to their program.


I hear you, brother. None of this stuff makes sense to me :confused: One of my classmates who was applying in Peds said they do that. Maybe it is just an urban legend, like so many other things.
 
And southerndoc, I've heard (at least in other fields) that if they think you are unlikely to come because you are too competitive, etc, you might not get ranked very highly or at all. I was just speculating as to whether this could have been a possible explanation.

Not true, at least at my program. If the faculty want you, they will rank you regardless of your competitiveness. Granted more competitive applicants are usually wanted moreso than less competitive applicants.

Please do not misinterpret what I am about to say: A lot of programs interview "competitive" applicants that are just average when compared to the residents already in a program. We have people with 260's on Step I, research experience, competitive athletes, etc. so there is no such thing as too competitive.
 
I've heard (at least in other fields) that if they think you are unlikely to come because you are too competitive, etc, you might not get ranked very highly or at all. I was just speculating as to whether this could have been a possible explanation.

If we like an applicant we rank them highly. Some other programs stress about how far they go down their rank list, so they may massage the list a little bit to put the applicants that like them a little higher on their list. No program though is going to spend the resources to interview an applicant and then decide the applicant is too competitive and decide not to rank them. A more likely scenario is that a lower tier program doesn't extend an interview offer to a super competitive applicant from across the country.
 
There is no published data on how far down a rank list a program goes. So if a program wants to brag about it, they can just make it up. The applicant wouldn't know the difference either way. Out of all the programs where I interviewed, only one program bragged about going only so many spots into its rank order list.
 
Not true, at least at my program. If the faculty want you, they will rank you regardless of your competitiveness. Granted more competitive applicants are usually wanted moreso than less competitive applicants.

Please do not misinterpret what I am about to say: A lot of programs interview "competitive" applicants that are just average when compared to the residents already in a program. We have people with 260's on Step I, research experience, competitive athletes, etc. so there is no such thing as too competitive.

This sounds more consistent with the EM world as I have thus far experienced it. I guess maybe since Peds is less competitive? I was so willing to latch onto the theory, because I just can't imagine what someone could do on their interview day to say, "no way I'm ranking this person". Don't we all laugh and have a good time? It just seems so strange to me.
 
This sounds more consistent with the EM world as I have thus far experienced it. I guess maybe since Peds is less competitive? I was so willing to latch onto the theory, because I just can't imagine what someone could do on their interview day to say, "no way I'm ranking this person". Don't we all laugh and have a good time? It just seems so strange to me.
You would be surprised. People become rude with faculty and staff, say negative things about residents/faculty at the program, etc.
 
You would be surprised. People become rude with faculty and staff, say negative things about residents/faculty at the program, etc.

I understand that occasionally an interviewee is rude to either faculty, resident, or other interviewee or maybe is just does not interview well or say something stupid. But, how can a situation occur when an interviewee walks out of an interview saying that he/she had a great and easy flowing conversation with all the residents and attendings, everyone was smiling, laughing and having a good time and at the same time the PD can go "we are definitely NOT ranking that person!". Yes, sometimes your preception of how the interview went can go either way and in those cases it can happen that you thought it was OK and PD just did not like you and doesn't want to rank you. Maybe sometimes little things that the applicant might not notice can make a significant difference to a PD come time to rank applicants.
 
I understand that occasionally an interviewee is rude to either faculty, resident, or other interviewee or maybe is just does not interview well or say something stupid. But, how can a situation occur when an interviewee walks out of an interview saying that he/she had a great and easy flowing conversation with all the residents and attendings, everyone was smiling, laughing and having a good time and at the same time the PD can go "we are definitely NOT ranking that person!". Yes, sometimes your preception of how the interview went can go either way and in those cases it can happen that you thought it was OK and PD just did not like you and doesn't want to rank you. Maybe sometimes little things that the applicant might not notice can make a significant difference to a PD come time to rank applicants.
FWIW, the match isn't perfect. When I was a medical student, one of my friends wanted to stay at my medical school for residency. He ranked the program #1. The PD himself called my friend wanting to know what happened and wondered if he didn't rank the program highly -- the PD swore to him they ranked him #1 on their list. This was confirmed by all three chief residents as well as two other faculty members. It was also confirmed by an ED physician whom I knew well and who was the husband of one of the faculty members involved with applicant ranking.

My friend truly did rank the program #1. He even showed me his rank list that was certified and printed the night they were due. He had no reason to deceive me.

So, either the PD of this particular program, two of his faculty members, and all three chiefs were BS'ing, which I highly doubt considering I was "very close" to one of the chiefs (don't ask, long story)... OR, there was a problem with the match.

Boris' interview may not have been as stellar as he thought, or his letters of recommendation may have not been as great as other applicants (or could've even given a bad vibe).

Nobody said the match was perfect. For all the applicant knows, we could have ranked him.
 
Dmitri, my intent in posting really wasn't to "whine" about having to match into my 2nd choice...I know there were ppl in far worst predicaments that day than mine and I'm sincerely sorry that you were one of them. There's only so much you can say in a post, and if readers take note of what was left out of what I wrote rather than what was actually included, I can see that they may have been offended by it. Again, I'm sorry if I came across that way. I have no idea where you interviewed, or how you interactions went at the interview, but I would hope that you don't take not having matched as a blemish on your character.

Hard24Get, in retrospect, I really don't see not matching at yale as a slap in the face. Believe me, I wasn't happy for a while, but truthfully, they don't owe me anything. One of the other posters put it best when s/he said good programs have a vision, and if your values don't match their goals, then they probably won't rank you regardless of your numbers. I'm sorta encouraged by this philosophy because I think it brings out the best in people as groups rather than individuals, and I applaud yale for doing that. And I don't take their decision to not rank me as a personal insult because clearly they did this to other applicants as well. And to answer your question, don't buy into the notion that programs won't rank you because they think you're too competitive for them. I don't know where that thinking started, but if you do the math, it just doesn't make sense. Rank 'em like you want 'em.

Dr. Will, maybe "shafted" wasn't a good choice of words on my part. Trust me, I'm happy with where i've ended up.
 
Dmitri, my intent in posting really wasn't to "whine" about having to match into my 2nd choice...I know there were ppl in far worst predicaments that day than mine and I'm sincerely sorry that you were one of them. There's only so much you can say in a post, and if readers take note of what was left out of what I wrote rather than what was actually included, I can see that they may have been offended by it. Again, I'm sorry if I came across that way. I have no idea where you interviewed, or how you interactions went at the interview, but I would hope that you don't take not having matched as a blemish on your character.

Hard24Get, in retrospect, I really don't see not matching at yale as a slap in the face. Believe me, I wasn't happy for a while, but truthfully, they don't owe me anything. One of the other posters put it best when s/he said good programs have a vision, and if your values don't match their goals, then they probably won't rank you regardless of your numbers. I'm sorta encouraged by this philosophy because I think it brings out the best in people as groups rather than individuals, and I applaud yale for doing that. And I don't take their decision to not rank me as a personal insult because clearly they did this to other applicants as well. And to answer your question, don't buy into the notion that programs won't rank you because they think you're too competitive for them. I don't know where that thinking started, but if you do the math, it just doesn't make sense. Rank 'em like you want 'em.

Dr. Will, maybe "shafted" wasn't a good choice of words on my part. Trust me, I'm happy with where i've ended up.


No worries. I can see how you didn't mean to offend anyone and was just trying to tell others of your experience and how an applicant while very good just might not be the best fit for a program. I'm not exactly thrilled with my current situation (although I will make the best of it) and so something in your post might have hit a nerve and I just had to vent a little. You sound like a fine person and I wish you luck, happiness and knowledge at your new program.
 
FWIW, the match isn't perfect. When I was a medical student, one of my friends wanted to stay at my medical school for residency. He ranked the program #1. The PD himself called my friend wanting to know what happened and wondered if he didn't rank the program highly -- the PD swore to him they ranked him #1 on their list. This was confirmed by all three chief residents as well as two other faculty members. It was also confirmed by an ED physician whom I knew well and who was the husband of one of the faculty members involved with applicant ranking.

My friend truly did rank the program #1. He even showed me his rank list that was certified and printed the night they were due. He had no reason to deceive me.

So, either the PD of this particular program, two of his faculty members, and all three chiefs were BS'ing, which I highly doubt considering I was "very close" to one of the chiefs (don't ask, long story)... OR, there was a problem with the match.

Boris' interview may not have been as stellar as he thought, or his letters of recommendation may have not been as great as other applicants (or could've even given a bad vibe).

Nobody said the match was perfect. For all the applicant knows, we could have ranked him.

Stories like this make me angry. Simply because if it is true, nobody can access the data to fight this. Say your friend hadn't ranked other places because he believed the PD on his word. We aren't allowed to sue the NRMP. You sign a contract that says basically, yeah, you have to use this system to get 99% of the jobs, but if it screws up, tough cookies.
I didn't match last year. Pretty much everyone here knows it. And it is mainly due to all the secrecy and voodoo built into the system. After our rank order list meeting at my residency, I was seriously frightened by that happening everywhere. At many places, the concept of not going far down the list is HUGE. And for no reason, other than it makes the PDs feel better, or gives them something to talk about at conferences or something. So I saw people who were numerically and letters-wise better flashed up on a screen, and moved down simply because some other dude wrote a letter or 4 saying how much he wanted to come there. I saw people put on the do not rank list simply because of one nuance, that only 1 of 4 interviewers, or worse, one of the people at the dinner picked up on and didn't like. Once it was the fact that someone ordered the catfish at dinner after a resident told him not to. It is completely asinine that something as simple as that can keep you out of a job, but it happens because the NRMP promotes the lack of communication.
Me, I'm still a little upset that after not matching, I did a month at the residency my wife is at currently, and was told they liked me. I interviewed there first. But because they can't give me the job (their rules, not even the NRMPs as an independent), I had to go on other interviews and tell people how much I wanted to come there and move my wife in the middle of her residency and the like. It made me feel disingenuous. It also cost a ton. Does it make me lose sleep? No. Do I wish I didn't have to do it? Absolutely.
 
Stories like this make me angry. Simply because if it is true, nobody can access the data to fight this. Say your friend hadn't ranked other places because he believed the PD on his word. We aren't allowed to sue the NRMP. You sign a contract that says basically, yeah, you have to use this system to get 99% of the jobs, but if it screws up, tough cookies.
I didn't match last year. Pretty much everyone here knows it. And it is mainly due to all the secrecy and voodoo built into the system. After our rank order list meeting at my residency, I was seriously frightened by that happening everywhere. At many places, the concept of not going far down the list is HUGE. And for no reason, other than it makes the PDs feel better, or gives them something to talk about at conferences or something. So I saw people who were numerically and letters-wise better flashed up on a screen, and moved down simply because some other dude wrote a letter or 4 saying how much he wanted to come there. I saw people put on the do not rank list simply because of one nuance, that only 1 of 4 interviewers, or worse, one of the people at the dinner picked up on and didn't like. Once it was the fact that someone ordered the catfish at dinner after a resident told him not to. It is completely asinine that something as simple as that can keep you out of a job, but it happens because the NRMP promotes the lack of communication.
Me, I'm still a little upset that after not matching, I did a month at the residency my wife is at currently, and was told they liked me. I interviewed there first. But because they can't give me the job (their rules, not even the NRMPs as an independent), I had to go on other interviews and tell people how much I wanted to come there and move my wife in the middle of her residency and the like. It made me feel disingenuous. It also cost a ton. Does it make me lose sleep? No. Do I wish I didn't have to do it? Absolutely.
Well catfish is pretty nasty. ;)

You must be in the South.
 
Stories like this make me angry. Simply because if it is true, nobody can access the data to fight this. Say your friend hadn't ranked other places because he believed the PD on his word. We aren't allowed to sue the NRMP. You sign a contract that says basically, yeah, you have to use this system to get 99% of the jobs, but if it screws up, tough cookies.
I didn't match last year. Pretty much everyone here knows it. And it is mainly due to all the secrecy and voodoo built into the system. After our rank order list meeting at my residency, I was seriously frightened by that happening everywhere. At many places, the concept of not going far downthe list is HUGE. And for no reason, other than it makes the PDs feel better, or gives them something to talk about at conferences or something. So I saw people who were numerically and letters-wise better flashed up on a screen, and moved down simply because some other dude wrote a letter or 4 saying how much he wanted to come there. I saw people put on the do not rank list simply because of one nuance, that only 1 of 4 interviewers, or worse, one of the people at the dinner picked up on and didn't like. Once it was the fact that someone ordered the catfish at dinner after a resident told him not to. It is completely asinine that something as simple as that can keep you out of a job, but it happens because the NRMP promotes the lack of communication.
Me, I'm still a little upset that after not matching, I did a month at the residency my wife is at currently, and was told they liked me. I interviewed there first. But because they can't give me the job (their rules, not even the NRMPs as an independent), I had to go on other interviews and tell people how much I wanted to come there and move my wife in the middle of her residency and the like. It made me feel disingenuous. It also cost a ton. Does it make me lose sleep? No. Do I wish I didn't have to do it? Absolutely.


i read the OPs reaction to be an emotional one, because it does suck to think you're gonna match somewhere and have a big surprise. this is such an emotional investment for us, and even though we're ecstatic to have matched and think we won't care where in the top 5 it is, we have a reason for ranking these places where we do. sometimes we think we're a good match and find out the hard way that we aren't.

that's exactly what happened to me. i'm stoked to have matched where i did (better program in lots of ways), but was bummed for awhile that i didn't match at a specific place higher on my list. it's a well known program, but in a city that's not desirable to most people. most of their residents are from this city or at least the region. i was there 2 months, worked my a$$ off harder than i could've imagined, had a mentor who was senior faculty, got support from the nursing staff (nurse supervisor said she went to the EM dept. to show their support for me), the residents said i was their favorite, etc. i loved it there, and thought it was the perfect place for me. i was so certain i'd be there because i made sure they knew how much i wanted to train there, but i didn't match there. i'd like to think it was a combination of being from California (aka, everyone from the west coast is an uppity outsider or something) and being a DO, and not a personality defect. it stung to have worked so hard for something and lain your heart open only to be rejected for reasons that will never be known. maybe it had nothing to do with my degree or birthplace, maybe my grades just sucked compared to other applicants, maybe i came off as a weirdo (haha probably). my mentor there wrote me the other day saying i was in a strong spot but they didn't go down very far and he was sorry i didn't match there. who knows if it's the truth, we both know i'll never find out why exactly.

as has been said here many times, fit is important. sometimes we think we fit in somewhere and just don't. my heart really goes out to the people who didn't match either this year or in years past, because sometimes knowing why would help. hopefully dmitrinyr, you will get a great spot next year and this will all end up being a great positive story to tell to others who are down about not matching.
 
fit is important. sometimes we think we fit in somewhere and just don't

It's been said that "Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers."

Sometimes you hope your "prayers get answered" and you get your number one. It may turn out, that in retrospect, not getting number one could be the best thing that ever happened to you.

If you don't get your number one, it's because your number one didn't fit with you the best, plain and simple. Just 'cause it's your number one, don't forget that it's someone else's number "5" or "9" or "15" or "wouldn't be caught dead there".

The best program for you is where you match; if you don't match this year, it's because you haven't found your match yet, not because you weren't good enough. You will match with the best program for you; that's why it's called a match.:thumbup:
 
I have to say one thing the interview trail taught me was that, just as NSAID said, not getting what you want may be the best thing for you. I met many people both residents and attendings at various programs who did not get what the wanted but wound up really liking what they got. One attending I met didn't match into Ortho, did a transitional year, met his wife there and found out he liked EM. Lots of people said things like 'it was the best thing to happen to me' etc. So, as much as the process sucks, it is comforting to think the rolling stones were right:
'you can't always get what you want but if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need'.
 
i read the OPs reaction to be an emotional one, because it does suck to think you're gonna match somewhere and have a big surprise. this is such an emotional investment for us, and even though we're ecstatic to have matched and think we won't care where in the top 5 it is, we have a reason for ranking these places where we do. sometimes we think we're a good match and find out the hard way that we aren't.

that's exactly what happened to me. I'm stoked to have matched where i did (better program in lots of ways), but was bummed for awhile that i didn't match at a specific place higher on my list. it's a well known program, but in a city that's not desirable to most people. most of their residents are from this city or at least the region. i was there 2 months, worked my a$$ off harder than i could've imagined, had a mentor who was senior faculty, got support from the nursing staff (nurse supervisor said she went to the EM dept. to show their support for me), the residents said i was their favorite, etc. i loved it there, and thought it was the perfect place for me. i was so certain i'd be there because i made sure they knew how much i wanted to train there, but i didn't match there. i'd like to think it was a combination of being from California (aka, everyone from the west coast is an uppity outsider or something) and being a DO, and not a personality defect. it stung to have worked so hard for something and lain your heart open only to be rejected for reasons that will never be known. maybe it had nothing to do with my degree or birthplace, maybe my grades just sucked compared to other applicants, maybe i came off as a weirdo (haha probably). my mentor there wrote me the other day saying i was in a strong spot but they didn't go down very far and he was sorry i didn't match there. who knows if it's the truth, we both know i'll never find out why exactly.

as has been said here many times, fit is important. sometimes we think we fit in somewhere and just don't. my heart really goes out to the people who didn't match either this year or in years past, because sometimes knowing why would help. hopefully dmitrinyr, you will get a great spot next year and this will all end up being a great positive story to tell to others who are down about not matching.

I think drjack and NSAID put into words what I've been feeling. I matched pretty far down on my list and was pretty bummed (yes I realize I matched and that's better than some, but I know people who matched 1st choice ENT and such). I kept going over things trying to figure out what went wrong. What was wrong with me? People kept asking me what was wrong with the program I matched at and I couldn't come up with anything other than it wasn't one I planned on matching at. And when I look at this in a rational fashion, this is a better place for me than the others for a heck of a lot of reasons (first and foremost being they actually wanted me).

So, maybe Garth Brooks or the Rolling Stones knew what they were singing about.
 
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