Why do I always hear of people "not going to lecture"?

[hemlocktree]

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Right now I am trying to decide between a school with a PBL curriculum and another with lecture based curriculum. At first, I thought I liked the 'security' and 'familiarity' of a lecture based format, but more and more I hear of people saying things like, "No one goes to that class" and "Lecture is worthless, I study on my own". If lectures are so pointless, PBL is starting to seem like more and more a good idea.

Obviously, I haven't been to med school yet, but are lectures really that pointless? I can't imagine ever skipping a lecture as an undergrad, and trying to teach myself from the textbook, I would be screwed. Is it different in med school?



Thank you all for you input, i'm really trying to make the best decision on schools with limited info.

 

[cliquesh]

At my school the tests came directly from the lectures. Not a text book. I never went to class, but listened to most of them at 2x speed at home in my bed.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

agreed. not going to class is much different than only studying your own material. i don't go to class for the same reason as cliquesh. Lecturers talk slow and i can listen to lectures when it works for me in half the time. so it is 4 hours going through the material, or 2 hours going through the material, and 2 hours reviewing (or dickin around)

 

[RnVt]

You might want to find out what sessions are mandatory at each school- I would think small group PBL-type session are more likely to be mandatory (or at least, harder to skip because you are "abandoning" your group) vs. traditional lecture. Although I dig the idea of PBL, the way it plays out in real life often isn't very groundbreaking or helpful....and in fact can be really tedious/a waste of time you could have spent being productive! So if I had to choose mandatory PBL over optional lecture, I would choose lecture because odds are, yes, you are going to end up skipping it anyway...

 

[mcloaf]

Generally if you aren't going to class you're still going to be watching/listening to the lecture and going through the slides at home, albeit at a faster pace. FWIW, most people I know wouldn't touch a PBL-based curriculum with a ten foot pole.

 

[sazerac]

Right now I am trying to decide between a school with a PBL curriculum and another with lecture based curriculum. At first, I thought I liked the 'security' and 'familiarity' of a lecture based format, but more and more I hear of people saying things like, "No one goes to that class" and "Lecture is worthless, I study on my own". If lectures are so pointless, PBL is starting to seem like more and more a good idea.

Obviously, I haven't been to med school yet, but are lectures really that pointless? I can't imagine ever skipping a lecture as an undergrad, and trying to teach myself from the textbook, I would be screwed. Is it different in med school?



Thank you all for you input, i'm really trying to make the best decision on schools with limited info.

Lectures are pointless. PBL is pointless. Interacting with your medical school is pointless.

The thing is, lectures are often optional. That makes all the difference.

I never missed a single class in undergrad. But now I'm a second year medical student, and once a month when we do have mandatory exams I have to use google maps to find my university because I really don't remember where it is anymore.

 

[deleted562324]

From what I understand by talking to medical students who say this (mostly 2nd years in my experience), they watch the recorded lectures at their own pace. I haven't met anyone who claimed that the lecture material was useless, just that the time could be better spent by watching them recorded instead of actually going to class. You can be more productive by pausing, speeding up, and slowing down when needed, keep books open to reference at various points, etc.

At first I was impressed by PBL (my first interview was at LECOM), but now I'm mostly convinced that it's not a very important aspect of the school to consider. At the end of the day, your performance on exams and boards is largely based on your effort as an individual, not the curriculum of the school. Having optional attendance and recorded lectures is an important point for me, and I value that more than PBL.

 

[Anicetus]

From what I understand by talking to medical students who say this (mostly 2nd years in my experience), they watch the recorded lectures at their own pace. I haven't met anyone who claimed that the lecture material was useless, just that the time could be better spent by watching them recorded instead of actually going to class. You can be more productive by pausing, speeding up, and slowing down when needed, keep books open to reference at various points, etc.

At first I was impressed by PBL (my first interview was at LECOM), but now I'm mostly convinced that it's not a very important aspect of the school to consider. At the end of the day, your performance on exams and boards is largely based on your effort as an individual, not the curriculum of the school. Having optional attendance and recorded lectures is an important point for me, and I value that more than PBL.

LECOM-B calls lectures "spoon-feeding" material because it breaks the textbooks down to tell you what is important for the boards and class exams instead of you reading the material yourself and finding out what is/ is not important.


I'll take my "spoonfeeding" any day.

 

[abolt18]

Because for many (me) it's a huge waste of time and I find myself getting WAY behind when I go to class. I do better on my own. I probably listen to 1/2 of lectures at double speed after I've given them a good first thorough read. Others I just don't worry about (biochem) because the handout has everything I need.

 

[Seth Joo]

Right now I am trying to decide between a school with a PBL curriculum and another with lecture based curriculum. At first, I thought I liked the 'security' and 'familiarity' of a lecture based format, but more and more I hear of people saying things like, "No one goes to that class" and "Lecture is worthless, I study on my own". If lectures are so pointless, PBL is starting to seem like more and more a good idea.

Obviously, I haven't been to med school yet, but are lectures really that pointless? I can't imagine ever skipping a lecture as an undergrad, and trying to teach myself from the textbook, I would be screwed. Is it different in med school?



Thank you all for you input, i'm really trying to make the best decision on schools with limited info.

If you do not have a science background, PBL will be a harder curriculum as you will need to learn a lot of science on your own. Going to lecture helps some people and others prefer to study at home. It all depends on what you are comfortable doing.

 

[hemlocktree]

If you do not have a science background, PBL will be a harder curriculum as you will need to learn a lot of science on your own. Going to lecture helps some people and others prefer to study at home. It all depends on what you are comfortable doing.

That's a good point. I actually come from a humanities background and did a post-bac. I'll definitely consider that when making a decision. Seems lecture is a better bet.

 

[jankymutt]

If you do not have a science background, PBL will be a harder curriculum as you will need to learn a lot of science on your own. Going to lecture helps some people and others prefer to study at home. It all depends on what you are comfortable doing.

Agreed. Check out different schools and different curriculum. PBL just didn't click for me.

I attended a med school where all the lectures were recorded. I watched them at home (often on 1.5-2x speed). I had a nice dual monitor set-up and could take notes, watch lectures quicker than sitting in class, could stop/pause and get food as needed. When I actually went to lecture half the class was on their computer screwing around on facebook, so I think I was more productive at home.

Everyone learns differently. After 4 years of college you should have developed a sense of how you learn. Find a school that meets your needs.

 

[Goro]

Excellent question! Some people need to go to lecture because hearing the material seems to help drive it home. Sometimes a professor will have something down on a slide that is not intuitive, and no matter how much you stare at it, you're not going to learn anything from it. As an example, a histopathology slide for, say, Barrett's esophagus, with no text.

I have a colleague who makes such exquisite handouts that many students skip his lectures, and ace his material.

When I sit in the back of the class to see when a fellow faculty member is teaching, anywhere from 25-50% of the clas might be looking at facebook, email, the local paper, on thier computer. The more boring the professor/lecture, the more distracted the students.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Excellent question! Some people need to go to lecture because hearing the material seems to help drive it home. Sometimes a professor will have something down on a slide that is not intuitive, and no matter how much you stare at it, you're not going to learn anything from it. As an example, a histopathology slide for, say, Barrett's esophagus, with no text.

I have a colleague who makes such exquisite handouts that many students skip his lectures, and ace his material.

When I sit in the back of the class to see when a fellow faculty member is teaching, anywhere from 25-50% of the clas might be looking at facebook, email, the local paper, on thier computer. The more boring the professor/lecture, the more distracted the students.

I never missed a class in medical school. I am an auditory learner and with small kids at home, I knew I would never look at the material myself. Yes, the lectures are boring but I knew that there were 3 test questions from each lecture so I created my own potential test questions during that time for study group later. I looked at medical school as a "job" and treated it like going to work everyday. Even if there wasn't mandatory attendance, I still would have been there every day.

 

[Dark Ace]

At my school the tests came directly from the lectures. Not a text book. I never went to class, but listened to most of them at 2x speed at home in my bed.

Because for many (me) it's a huge waste of time and I find myself getting WAY behind when I go to class. I do better on my own. I probably listen to 1/2 of lectures at double speed after I've given them a good first thorough read. Others I just don't worry about (biochem) because the handout has everything I need.

So med students can get by fairly well without the use of textbooks (aside from review books)?? If so, that would be great news for someone like me.

 

[cliquesh]

So med students can get by fairly well without the use of textbooks (aside from review books)?? If so, that would be great news for someone like me.

Yep, I actual never read a real medical text book until after I matched, lol. It's kind of pathetic.

 

[cabinbuilder]

So med students can get by fairly well without the use of textbooks (aside from review books)?? If so, that would be great news for someone like me.

All our tests came from lectures. The only text books I bought were anatomy, pathology, and a Netter's for structure identification.

 

[hemlocktree]

Yep, I actual never read a real medical text book until after I matched, lol. It's kind of pathetic.

Wow, news to me.

 

[Seth Joo]

LECOM-B calls lectures "spoon-feeding" material because it breaks the textbooks down to tell you what is important for the boards and class exams instead of you reading the material yourself and finding out what is/ is not important.


I'll take my "spoonfeeding" any day.

Spoon feeding??!!! LOL. More like opening up a fire hydrant and offering you a drink water. At schools where there is lecture, you can probably do very well studying lecture notes.

Wow, news to me.

I have heard of this, a lot of students often study lecture notes and go to lecture to prepare for examinations.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Review books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text books.

If you are going to the textbook for information, you are wasting your time.

 

[dudeliness]

I'm thinking I might go to lecture less often now too. First biochem test is tomorrow and I get the feeling the hours I spent in lecture were wasted. Could have studied it more efficiently on my own with slides and recorded lecture.

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

I'm not in medical school yet, but my plan is to use a few essential step 1 & 2 review books alongside what I learn in class to learn everything I need to know... for quizzes/tests/USMLE/COMLEX/etc. Anything else on top of that will come through specialty training (residency, fellowship, etc.). That being said, I was a bit surprised at the "no textbook needed" strategy. Does it actually work for you who condone this behavior?

Anyhow, i'm all about ergonomics. Sometimes less is more, less books equals less debt, and burnout (caused by overstudying) is a key reason why people are leaving this profession. So, I'm really interested to hear more about the successes & strategies of the medical student minimalists!

 

[cabinbuilder]

P

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

Check your facts. If you think Obama is "evil" incarnate, you are sorely mistaken. While I do not support everything he does, *he* most certainly has not ruined the medical profession; the medical profession was messed up long before he was sworn in. Try pointing the finger of blame at Pharma... not so easy, is it? That's right, you can't nail it down on one scapegoat anymore.

Don't let one person stop you from caring for your patients. If you do, then you probably weren't in the medical profession for the right reasons anyways.

The same thing is happening to teachers in this country, but let's pray they don't stop caring for their students either.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

.

 

[oingoboingo]

People are leaving the profession because of too much governmental regulation and the fact that you get rewarded by how many boxes you check in the EMR rather than the quality of care you provide to the patients. It's stupid and it sucks. Obama is EVIL and has ruined the medical profession for all of us who care about the patients.

WTF??? How is this relevant to lecture attendance?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Don't let one person stop you from caring for your patients. If you do, then you probably weren't in the medical profession for the right reasons anyways.

!

Never said I stopped caring. I was referring to this statement: Anyhow, i'm all about ergonomics. Sometimes less is more, less books equals less debt, and burnout (caused by overstudying) is a key reason why people are leaving this profession. And giving a real reason why doctors are leaving the profession. Nothing more.

 

[NorthernMav]

I agree with this:

Lectures are pointless. PBL is pointless. Interacting with your medical school is pointless.

The thing is, lectures are often optional. That makes all the difference.

and this:

Excellent question! Some people need to go to lecture because hearing the material seems to help drive it home. Sometimes a professor will have something down on a slide that is not intuitive, and no matter how much you stare at it, you're not going to learn anything from it. As an example, a histopathology slide for, say, Barrett's esophagus, with no text.

I have a colleague who makes such exquisite handouts that many students skip his lectures, and ace his material.

When I sit in the back of the class to see when a fellow faculty member is teaching, anywhere from 25-50% of the clas might be looking at facebook, email, the local paper, on thier computer. The more boring the professor/lecture, the more distracted the students.

Personally, I found lecture a waste of time while at my SMP. It was far more effective for me to use that precious time to study the provided material at home. However, occasioanlly it was necessary to review the recorded lecture in case something didn't click. I also found it important to become friends with a lecture-attender in the event that something outside the provided study materials was presented and stressed in class.

Everyone has different learning styles. If it were me, I would still stick with the lecture-based learning due to the fact that I found PBL to be even less effective in teaching me the material; things would always get sidetracked.

 

[Seth Joo]

Check your facts. If you think Obama is "evil" incarnate, you are sorely mistaken. While I do not support everything he does, *he* most certainly has not ruined the medical profession; the medical profession was messed up long before he was sworn in. Try pointing the finger of blame at Pharma... not so easy, is it? That's right, you can't nail it down on one scapegoat anymore.

Don't let one person stop you from caring for your patients. If you do, then you probably weren't in the medical profession for the right reasons anyways.

The same thing is happening to teachers in this country, but let's pray they don't stop caring for their students either.

Obama is not evil incarnate, he is just incompetent. I honestly do not see any difference between him and Bush. Bush had Katrina, Obama had the BP Oil spill. He promised to reinvigorate the US economy, many of the jobs that existed before the financial crisis have not returned.

Obamacare is very half baked. Its definitely going to negatively impact physicians in many ways. Academics like Obamacare but real doctors in the real world are not so enthusiastic.

 

[notbobtrustme]

true story, obama kicked my dog, said "peace out bitches, gotta sign the PPACA" then drank all my beer.

 

[touchpause13]

Thanks Obama

 

[didymus]

I have often thought about the stories I'd hear of many medical students not attending lectures and opting, instead, to study at home, and be more in charge of their own time. It was a very intriguing concept to me because that's how I prefer to study. In my undergrad institution, professors were not keen on this approach by some students (myself included). We thought to ourselves that if the professors are literally going to lecture verbatim from powerpoint slides that they had also made available to us online, what good was it for us to go and sit in class to listen to this if we could simply get the very same information at home, in a quarter of the time, while also supplementing with other resources?

The professors caused quite a stink, and made those of us who had the audacity to consider the situation logically feel really guilty about missing class. It was very much a "How could you even consider doing such a thing?" scenario. Very awkward, and quite dramatic. Unfortunately, I am someone--a child of the times, perhaps--who does much better at a self-paced approach to the content, while taking advantage of the constellation of knowledge at my fingertips. So I was forced (to an extent) to learn in the manner the professors wanted me to learn, not in the way that I learned best.

That said, I'm happy to see more people affirming that some medical schools allow their students to approach the material in the ways that are best for them. It's encouraging.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Obama is not evil incarnate, he is just incompetent. I honestly do not see any difference between him and Bush. Bush had Katrina, Obama had the BP Oil spill. He promised to reinvigorate the US economy, many of the jobs that existed before the financial crisis have not returned.

Obamacare is very half baked. Its definitely going to negatively impact physicians in many ways. Academics like Obamacare but real doctors in the real world are not so enthusiastic.

Strongly disagree. Unless of course you are planning to to have a McMansion and 5 European cars.

 

[coolingglasses]

I'm not much for lectures either. I started off the year attending all of them and noticed that my exam scores correlated higher with fewer lectures attended (except block 4, which I got absolutely annihilated on because I got behind).

The lecture handouts are pretty thorough here for the most part, and I think there's a clause stating that professors can only test out of their handouts (although sometimes they'll tell you if the powerpoints are sufficient). I am starting to work my way in to attending more lectures (some of the lecturers are pretty entertaining), but in any case, they're usually recorded so I can at least watch at home.

 

[Seth Joo]

Strongly disagree. Unless of course you are planning to to have a McMansion and 5 European cars.

A lot of people going to medical school are expecting some big financial gains as a result of their education. Yes doctors are going to lose big in the income department. I know doctors who worked in the old system who did extremely well financially.

I could settle for one European car, a 1994 Lamborghini Diablo VT designed by Marcello Gandini. I saw one at an auto show when I was six years old, was awestruck.

Obama is a world class screw up, it shocks me that he got a second term.

 

[abolt18]

Strongly disagree. Unless of course you are planning to to have a McMansion and 5 European cars.

For the time and money I have and will put in I'm definitely planning on a McMansion and a few Italian cars (after school is paid off of course). But I'll pass on other 'luxuries' that I don't care for in order to get them. And there will be a secret passageway or two. Maybe a sliding bookshelf into my extra office. 🙂

 

[Postictal Raiden]

A lot of people going to medical school are expecting some big financial gains as a result of their education. Yes doctors are going to lose big in the income department. I know doctors who worked in the old system who did extremely well financially.

I could settle for one European car, a 1994 Lamborghini Diablo VT designed by Marcello Gandini. I saw one at an auto show when I was six years old, was awestruck.

Obama is a world class screw up, it shocks me that he got a second term.

I, too, expect to be paid well after all these years of hard work and delayed gratification. However, like any other job, you can't expect to be wealthy solely on your physician's paycheck. There was an inflation of salaries that began during the 60's and it lasted until the 90's. This inflation was caused by the advent of government subsidized health care (see the irony?).

I don't expect the salaries to be the same or even close to what they once were. However, I will be content if I make enough to repay my student debt and have enough left over to purchase a decent house, educate my kids, live comfortably and save for retirement. To put a number on it, I will need a salary of 150K to maintain the lifestyle I'm expecting to have (200K if IBR or similar loan repayment options are no longer available).

And, no, I don't think Obama is to blame for the increased regulations and the anticipated decrease in physician's salaries. All he has done is increasing the demand for healthcare providers by providing the means to millions of citizens to afford private health insurance. Besides, didn't he sign the bill that will allow us to make affordable payments toward our loans?

 

[NontradCA]

Thanks Obama

 

[KnuxNole]

Review books >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text books.

If you are going to the textbook for information, you are wasting your time.

this. I also never went to lectures. Only read the slides. I dunno about most people but listening to lectures provided 0 benefit whatsoever. Especially if the notes are available. It was just going over the notes, and having to listen to people ask questions, which always has to be fast forwarded and skipped. I never listened to lectures after the first few. Notes were the bread, butter and meat of the material, with review books as an adjunct.

 

[NorthernMav]

And, no, I don't think Obama is to blame for the increased regulations and the anticipated decrease in physician's salaries. All he has done is increasing the demand for healthcare providers by providing the means to millions of citizens to afford private health insurance. Besides, didn't he sign the bill that will allow us to make affordable payments toward our loans?

Hmm... I am going to try and stay out of this one. But, you may want to think ahead about what this abrupt surge of insured patients will do to overhead costs of hospitals, how the government will want to reimburse, and how this impacts the physicians freedom to order tests and procedures they see fit. Obama is instrumental in this increase in regulations and possible decrease in physicians' salaries...money needs to come from somewhere.

Oh, and I love paying interest on a massive loan before I am even out of school and able to pay it.

 

[Seth Joo]

For the time and money I have and will put in I'm definitely planning on a McMansion and a few Italian cars (after school is paid off of course). But I'll pass on other 'luxuries' that I don't care for in order to get them. And there will be a secret passageway or two. Maybe a sliding bookshelf into my extra office. 🙂

The way things are going we will be lucky to be able to own a house and drive a Toyota. A lot of people I know who have finished residency are living pretty modestly compared to doctors in the past. Its not just doctors, but graduates across the board are not faring as well as they did in the past. For law students its even worse, only people from good law schools are finding jobs.

 

[Dmr6186]

I go to class the majority of times (by choice!) and I keep up with the pace just fine. I also have a few books I read to get a bit of extra info in order to understand concepts more deeply (helps me retain it better to internalize the "why" factor if a professor doesn't go into it much). I feel I pay attention more to the lecturer when sitting there instead of listening at home. That way I don't need to listen to a lecture multiple times to make sure I get everything. And since I type all my notes on my computer, it's no problem keeping up with a lecturer. It also helped me develop a few friendships because if I were at home all the time, I would have never met some good people! I have plenty of time I spend with my girlfriend, goof off, and whatever else you can think of. So while staying home works for some, going works for others. However, I thoroughly enjoy the option of sleeping in late and skipping class every once in a while. We all deserve that sort of reward 😉

 

[mcloaf]

The way things are going we will be lucky to be able to own a house

If you can't afford to own a house on a physician's salary you done goofed.

 

[Seth Joo]

If you can't afford to own a house on a physician's salary you done goofed.

It depends on the city and state, if you live in the Northeast or West Coast, given the kinds of prices for homes in those regions of the country, a decent home in a reasonably good neighborhood is going to cost a lot of money. Student loan debts have become as big as home mortgages.

I live near Boston, and an average fixer upper is over 500k. A typical family doctor makes 150k, factor in taxes and student loan payments, you do not have a whole lot left for yourself. I know a lot of people in Boston who earn six figure incomes have and have Dr. in front of their name, yet they rent.

If you live in the Midwest, maybe its a different story.

 

[jayhawker1193]

Obama is not evil incarnate, he is just incompetent. I honestly do not see any difference between him and Bush. Bush had Katrina, Obama had the BP Oil spill. He promised to reinvigorate the US economy, many of the jobs that existed before the financial crisis have not returned.

Obamacare is very half baked. Its definitely going to negatively impact physicians in many ways. Academics like Obamacare but real doctors in the real world are not so enthusiastic.

100% agree.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Hmm... I am going to try and stay out of this one. But, you may want to think ahead about what this abrupt surge of insured patients will do to overhead costs of hospitals, how the government will want to reimburse, and how this impacts the physicians freedom to order tests and procedures they see fit. Obama is instrumental in this increase in regulations and possible decrease in physicians' salaries...money needs to come from somewhere.

Oh, and I love paying interest on a massive loan before I am even out of school and able to pay it.

Yes, it is a big shift and may require everyone to sacrifice a little for a larger gain. More people will be insured. There will be more work to go around for the continually increasing number of medical and midlevel provider graduates. Even so, it is still a possibility that physicians's reimbursements are going to drop. Especially that the mass number of newly insured people will be covered under a private insurance.

BTW, it wasn't Obama's fault that the tuition and the interest rates are very high. In fact, he was the one to get rid of the middle man and drop the interest rate of GradPlus loans from 8.5 to 7.9. Despite all that, it will be YOUR fault, and yours alone that you took out all these loans and decided not to take advantage of the repayment (PAYE and PSLF) options the government made available to you.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

The way things are going we will be lucky to be able to own a house and drive a Toyota. A lot of people I know who have finished residency are living pretty modestly compared to doctors in the past. Its not just doctors, but graduates across the board are not faring as well as they did in the past. For law students its even worse, only people from good law schools are finding jobs.

No wonder they say that doctors are the worst people when it comes to finance.

Many members of my family managed to purchase decent houses in SoCal (350K+) on incomes that don't exceed 75K/year.

In the worst cases scenario, you live a resident's life style for 5 years after residency, payoff your entire student debt and even save to buy a house.

 

[NontradCA]

No wonder they say that doctors are the worst people when it comes to finance.

Many members of my family managed to purchase decent houses in SoCal (350K+) on incomes that don't exceed 75K/year.

In the worst cases scenario, you live a resident's life style for 5 years after residency, payoff your entire student debt and even save to buy a house.

I has furrarry?

 

[dudeliness]

For the time and money I have and will put in I'm definitely planning on a McMansion and a few Italian cars (after school is paid off of course). But I'll pass on other 'luxuries' that I don't care for in order to get them. And there will be a secret passageway or two. Maybe a sliding bookshelf into my extra office. 🙂

Panic room FTW.

But seriously, gotta get a panic room. I'll probably make mine into a hidden multimedia room. 😉

 

[Seth Joo]

No wonder they say that doctors are the worst people when it comes to finance.

Many members of my family managed to purchase decent houses in SoCal (350K+) on incomes that don't exceed 75K/year.

In the worst cases scenario, you live a resident's life style for 5 years after residency, payoff your entire student debt and even save to buy a house.

You have to consider the gargantuan student loan debts that many new doctors have. I know doctors who graduate in the late 1990s who are still barely paying back their student loan debt. Also if run your own office, you have expenses there as well. Opening up a practice is a huge expense.

350k for a decent house in SoCal, I have a hard time believing that.