Why do I always hear of people "not going to lecture"?

[cabinbuilder]

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Wow very sorry to hear it! I realize that things don't always go according to plan, but I have a plan nonetheless and will adapt as needed. Even as a family practice doc (which I won't be) if I live off 60k for a few years while making family practice median salary, I can still pay all student loans off in under 8 yrs. Again, this is potentially overly optimistic, but I'll adapt as needed when I get to that point. I generally live very frugally with my wife and intend to continue to do so. I hate debt more than I love 'things.'

I sincerely hope your situation improves. I have heard that path jobs were tougher to get these days, especially good ones.

Unfortunately Path is not a good job choice at the moment. However, FP is THE hot commodity, there are more jobs than physicians currently

 

[hallowmann]

But don't you read a ton even if you're in a lecture curriculum as well?

Also, a secondary question I had was about review books vs. textbooks. Does one lead to better comprehension of the material? Memorizing a list of bullet points would really bother me, I'd much rather actually "understand" the material even if it requires more reading.

Most people I know in LDP study the lecture slides/notes, and little else. Many don't buy most of the textbooks. In PBL that's not an option.

I definitely think this depends on both the individual and material. Personally, I prefer to have everything explained from start to finish when I'm reading a book, because that's how I learn it. I'm terrible at memorization, but when I read something in complete sentences with detail I tend to recall it, because I'm able to process the material and under all (read: most) aspects of it. For some reason when I study from review books, it just doesn't stick as well. That said, I have friends that live by review books. I'm a slow reader, I have a hard enough time doing the readings once, let alone doing the readings, once (maybe twice) AND reading through a review book.

I'm sure the review books would be much more handy come board prep time, but right now, I'm reading the textbooks to build my base.

But then how do PBL students find time to actually read the textbooks, which they claim they do?

I think cabinbuilder meant for a lecture-based curriculum. In PBL, honestly its tight sometimes for me, but we are pretty much only in class for 2 hrs 3 days a week, and the other 2 days we have more full schedules. That leaves a lot of free time, which is great, because you decide how you want to spend. That said, its important to spend it wisely, because no one is going to tell you your falling behind, you're expected to be handling it on your own. Most people read for 4-8 hours a day on the lighter days, and then it increases to reading/studying for 10-12 hours a day when we get within a week or two of the exam.

Do you guys share rotation sites with lecture-based schools? What's the comparison by which you're "far ahead"?

I don't think "doing well on boards" can really be an argument in favor of either approach, since students from both approaches do well.

Definitely agree that most people will probably strongly prefer one or the other.

All of LECOM-PA (Erie & Seton Hill) shares its rotation sites. I honestly don't know what comparison it is, and you can take it for what its worth. Personally, I think if its anything its more of just our being comfortable with the situations. In the PBL curriculum, we are essentially doing mock histories, researching for the diagnoses and doing case presentations 3 times a week for 2 years, and that's outside of our history and physical courses. We also talk about the other aspects of the case, including emotional impact, financial considerations, etc. It does vary to some degree based on how good your facilitator (faculty member) is, but you rotate them every block. As a result, I think it just ends up making people who are more comfortable with the process.

As far as boards go, I believe all the PBL classes have consistently higher first attempt pass rates of Level 1 than LDP, but the difference is pretty small. Personally, I think its because PBL already self-selects for people who put in the work (if they didn't, they wouldn't make it through the curriculum). As a result, people who slack could probably get through a lecture-based system, whereas the people who slack off in PBL simply couldn't.

The bottom line really is that it depends on the individual. If you think you'll do well in PBL, then I recommend it. I was one of those people that was scared at first, because I'm an extremely slow reader and I had never really experienced PBL. That said, the idea of being in lectures/labs from 8-4 everyday seemed like torture. Overall, I love the flexibility of the time, but PBL isn't for everyone. If you think you'd do much better in a lecture-based curriculum, then that's the way to go. Both system work perfectly fine, so really its just a matter of you being comfortable with whatever you choose.

I thought I was going to be very comfortable after completing residency and fellowship. I was for about 10 years, had the Jag and nice townhouse and lots of money in bank. Then came family health issues with relocation to a job that ended up being nonexistent within a year. Unable to find a decent pathology job and working Locums meant becoming an academic at a new school paying well below median salary. I don't break even, my retirement cushion is dwindling rapidly. Don't believe you are going to have your loans paid off unless you get something like Ortho, ophtho or Derm.

I'm really sorry to hear that, and I hope things turn around for you. I know a few people in path at big academic institutions, and while they are doing alright, they have noticed that while people keep retiring or going away for sick leave, no new people are being hired. The hospitals are trying to save money, so they are just piling the remaining work on the rest of the path staff.

Unfortunately Path is not a good job choice at the moment. However, FP is THE hot commodity, there are more jobs than physicians currently

This is becoming more and more true, FP and PC salaries in general are finally starting to go up. Its been a long time coming. I know some people that could have had all of their loans paid off in 4-5 yrs if they chose to work is some the highly underserved areas. They didn't want the lifestyle, so they passed on it, and are still paying off their loans. It makes me thank God that I'm going to the least expensive private school.

 

[Seth Joo]

Wow very sorry to hear it! I realize that things don't always go according to plan, but I have a plan nonetheless and will adapt as needed. Even as a family practice doc (which I won't be) if I live off 60k for a few years while making family practice median salary, I can still pay all student loans off in under 8 yrs. Again, this is potentially overly optimistic, but I'll adapt as needed when I get to that point. I generally live very frugally with my wife and intend to continue to do so. I hate debt more than I love 'things.'

I sincerely hope your situation improves. I have heard that path jobs were tougher to get these days, especially good ones.

Obamacare is going to put more downward pressure on doctor salaries, but the cost of going to college and medical school continues to rise. Eventually more of the sheep will wake up and realize they are being fleeced. Most students today are idiotic about the economic impact of debt and the actual value of their education in the real world.

I had a professor who one time blurted out in lab that students at most DO schools are being overcharged and her colleague told him to shut up. But he is right, tuition at most DO schools is extremely high, even the most of us will wind up in the lower rung of the medical hierarchy.

Most of us will work in regions and in fields that MDs consider undesirable.

 

[guylewis]

Obamacare is going to put more downward pressure on doctor salaries, but the cost of going to college and medical school continues to rise. Eventually more of the sheep will wake up and realize they are being fleeced. Most students today are idiotic about the economic impact of debt and the actual value of their education in the real world.

I had a professor who one time blurted out in lab that students at most DO schools are being overcharged and her colleague told him to shut up. But he is right, tuition at most DO schools is extremely high, even the most of us will wind up in the lower rung of the medical hierarchy.

Most of us will work in regions and in fields that MDs consider undesirable.

woooooooowwwww, nice job there. did you hear that everyone?? we're all idiot sheep going into a worthless profession. Thanks Seth Joo! you know how to win people over. If you don't mind me, i'm gonna go graze away with all the other sheep and become a doctor for the stupid reasons, like helping people only for a measly six figure income. looks like I'll have to pass on that gold plated shark tank. you sure got this whole world figured out, I wish I could be as smart as you.

 

[guylewis]

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[Postictal Raiden]

Obamacare is going to put more downward pressure on doctor salaries, but the cost of going to college and medical school continues to rise. Eventually more of the sheep will wake up and realize they are being fleeced. Most students today are idiotic about the economic impact of debt and the actual value of their education in the real world.

I had a professor who one time blurted out in lab that students at most DO schools are being overcharged and her colleague told him to shut up. But he is right, tuition at most DO schools is extremely high, even the most of us will wind up in the lower rung of the medical hierarchy.

Most of us will work in regions and in fields that MDs consider undesirable.

I am content with practicing real medicine and having the "elite" doctors play overpriced beauticians.

But I agree with you that we are being grossly overcharged for medical education. This is the situation and I will have to deal with it. I hope IBR and PAYE remain an option when I start practicing, if not, I will probably need to live AND work like a resident for few years till I dig myself out of the hole.

 

[guylewis]

I agree with the fact that medical students as a whole are paying far too much for medical school, (the same goes for undergraduate education as well) but to squarely say that DO's are paying too much for medical school as though we are signing up for a scam school at the same price that an MD pays for his education is the part that got to me. we will receive the same medical education as MDs, with some OMM skills on top.

 

[Darthberghen]

Obamacare is going to put more downward pressure on doctor salaries, but the cost of going to college and medical school continues to rise. Eventually more of the sheep will wake up and realize they are being fleeced. Most students today are idiotic about the economic impact of debt and the actual value of their education in the real world.

I had a professor who one time blurted out in lab that students at most DO schools are being overcharged and her colleague told him to shut up. But he is right, tuition at most DO schools is extremely high, even the most of us will wind up in the lower rung of the medical hierarchy.

Most of us will work in regions and in fields that MDs consider undesirable.

News flash: There are ~250,000 MDs who work in primary care.

This guy is an anti-DO troll masquerading as a DO student. Read his posting history.

 

[DrEnderW]

most of us will wind up in the lower rung of the medical hierarchy.

Medical hierarchy is based on academic prestige and NOT salary.

For example, I worked at a top 10 medical school in a laboratory with MDs that are, at the worst, top 5 in the world for their respected specialty. Every day at lunch they complained about low salary even though they were at the apex of medicine and some of the most prestigious doctors in their field.

A physician with a DO degree in private practice could easily make 2X their salary, likely more if they were in the surg sub-specialties, derm, etc. Most people are at DO schools because they don't want to be in academia and don't want to be professors at medical schools. Salary is based on specialty, location, style of practice, business acumen, etc and not solely on initials. A DO ortho surgeon churning out spine surgeries is going to make more than an IM MD that is associated with a top ranked med school hospital that is well known and writes some papers.

Yes, a private DO school is more expensive than a state MD school. No ****, thanks for reiterating that truly insightful point no one has every considered before. There are also state DO schools that are cheaper than private MD schools. Many of the private MD schools - let's use Tufts as an example - are more expensive than the average private DO school. For the vast majority of medical students that aren't at their state school, it's not going to make a drastic difference.

As others have said... there are more MDs in low paying specialties than DOs because of shear numbers. Good talk though.

 

[Pisiform]

Go PBL - it's so much better

 

[guylewis]

Go PBL - it's so much better

the Dude says it so much better than me:

 

[TreadLightly]

Question: if lecture is required, what's stopping someone from just going to class and ignoring the lecturer to do their own thing like they would at the library? It seems ******ed to require attendance and expect people to pay attention if it's not efficient.