Why do I always hear of people "not going to lecture"?

[Postictal Raiden]

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You have to consider the gargantuan student loan debts that many new doctors have. I know doctors who graduate in the late 1990s who are still barely paying back their student loan debt. Also if run your own office, you have expenses there as well. Opening up a practice is a huge expense.

350k for a decent house in SoCal, I have a hard time believing that.

In fact, my mother bought one 6 months ago for that much. If you are welling to live 40 miles away from OC, then these are the prices.

 

[NorthernMav]

Yes, it is a big shift and may require everyone to sacrifice a little for a larger gain. More people will be insured. There will be more work to go around for the continually increasing number of medical and midlevel provider graduates. Even so, it is still a possibility that physicians's reimbursements are going to drop. Especially that the mass number of newly insured people will be covered under a private insurance.

Wait...so the emotional, physical, social, psychological, and current financial sacrifices that a doctor has made and continues to make are still not enough? Haha. I think you may need to get some perspective from residents who have virtually given up their life to the struggle of 80+ hour work weeks, while trying to support his/her own family under the pressure of a $300,000 interest acruing loan and a threatened future.

I see your perspective; however, our philosophies differ greatly. Now please let us get back to the purpose of this thread...

 

[guylewis]

You have to consider the gargantuan student loan debts that many new doctors have. I know doctors who graduate in the late 1990s who are still barely paying back their student loan debt. Also if run your own office, you have expenses there as well. Opening up a practice is a huge expense.

350k for a decent house in SoCal, I have a hard time believing that.

my parents bought a nice house in SoCal for 300k, and I live in a very nice area

 

[AuroraX]

I think part of the reason is that some people learn better on their own than in a lecture hall. I happen to be one of these people. It's not that I don't study class material (well in undergrad).. it's that I relisten to recorded lectures to grasp it better. For me, sitting in a classroom can be a waste of time because I don't feel like I hear/capture everything.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Wait...so the emotional, physical, social, psychological, and current financial sacrifices that a doctor has made and continues to make are still not enough? Haha. I think you may need to get some perspective from residents who have virtually given up their life to the struggle of 80+ hour work weeks, while trying to support his/her own family under the pressure of a $300,000 interest acruing loan and a threatened future.

I see your perspective; however, our philosophies differ greatly. Now please let us get back to the purpose of this thread...

Not until I respond to this.

No one is forcing you to go through the "emotional, physical, social, psychological, and current financial sacrifices" to become a doctor. I'm very sure your PS to med schools was a derivative of "I want to become a physician because I want to serve my community...".

There's nothing wrong with wanting to make decent living as a doctor, but it is wrong to do so at the cost leaving millions without healthcare coverage. Heck, I would love to live in a McMansion and drive a "furrary" but is it right to put my personal desires before that of 40 million uninsured citizens?

I'm going into medicine knowing that I will graduate with a 400K+ debt. I also know that as a doctor I will be able to pay back my loans, live decently and die with some dignity.

 

[NekoBeats]

You have to consider the gargantuan student loan debts that many new doctors have. I know doctors who graduate in the late 1990s who are still barely paying back their student loan debt. Also if run your own office, you have expenses there as well. Opening up a practice is a huge expense.

350k for a decent house in SoCal, I have a hard time believing that.

There are decent houses in the Inland Empire (i.e. Riverside) for that much, even less.

Right now I am trying to decide between a school with a PBL curriculum and another with lecture based curriculum. At first, I thought I liked the 'security' and 'familiarity' of a lecture based format, but more and more I hear of people saying things like, "No one goes to that class" and "Lecture is worthless, I study on my own". If lectures are so pointless, PBL is starting to seem like more and more a good idea.

Obviously, I haven't been to med school yet, but are lectures really that pointless? I can't imagine ever skipping a lecture as an undergrad, and trying to teach myself from the textbook, I would be screwed. Is it different in med school?

I need lectures, I just don't need to go to them. That's probably what people mean when they say that lecture is pointless; they're not saying that the lecture-styled curriculum is pointless. Some professors just suck at teaching, and it's more efficient to look through the note packets yourself and fill in the blanks by listening to the lecture recording or using a textbook/review book at your own pace.

I interviewed at a school that was PBL and got the idea that it wasn't for me pretty quickly. I suggest looking into the curriculum of both schools more and evaluating which one is better suited to your learning style.

 

[didymus]

The thread has veered somewhat. FWIW, all the stats I've read place physician salaries at somewhere lower than 10% of medical expenditure. It's just talked about so often--mostly by the political left--because the "rich" are an easy target, and if you are targeting the rich, you can get the populists fired-up to vote you into office and, thus, push your legislation through.

I get frustrated by the red herring attacks on doctor pay because it makes actually really good and highly educated people out to be greedy criminals who care nothing for the sick and injured, while the mega-rich continue getting mega rich.

Just because making 6-figures puts one in among the top earners doesn't mean they are living like the Nip/Tuck, Private Practice dramas make it out to be.

Frankly, if anyone in society deserves to be rich, it's physicians; they are the most educated people in society after all. I have a problem with a president (or any political figure) who demonizes people who have an insane amount of schooling and training for making money while he parades around with LeBron James and Jay-Z who have more money than any doc could ever dream of making, which they earned by adding nothing of genuine value to society.

Docs deserve to be rich. But they aren't "rich" so we can stop trash-talking the money they earn, especially when it contributes so little to the outrageous healthcare costs in our country.

 

[alpinism]

Avoid PBL schools like the plague.

Even at the very few schools that do it well, its still extremely inefficient and a huge time drain.

Many students don't go to class for a variety of reasons. Its faster and more convenient to stream lectures at 2x speed, many profs are just plain horrible to listen to in person, you can still ask questions via online message boards, and you can fast foreword through AV problems plus the useless introductory slides during the 1st 10min of lecture.

After a while you learn to skip over the low yield lecture slides as well (useless graphs and statistics) which saves hours every week.

 

[didymus]

Avoid PBL schools like the plague.

Even at the very few schools that do it well, its still extremely inefficient and a huge time drain.

This thread has been eye-opening for me. I was excited when I first learned about PBL, and was eager to get into a program that offered it. It's good to know now how bad they are.

I would still like to hear if anyone had a positive experience with PBL. It's good to have some balance.

 

[Starry]

This thread has been eye-opening for me. I was excited when I first learned about PBL, and was eager to get into a program that offered it. It's good to know now how bad they are.

I would still like to hear if anyone had a positive experience with PBL. It's good to have some balance.

I really think that it is up to the individual learning style. The LECOM's have some of the highest board scores and pass rates in the country, and arguably THE best. No matter how much pre-med students may speculate or med students complain, the numbers are pretty convincing for me. Therefore, I don't think PBL is "bad." It undoubtedly works for many people.

I am not a med student, but my undergraduate business degree has many classes built on "case studies," so I have some experience with the PBL style. We are assigned both conceptual and case readings and in class, all we do is talk about our insights and conclusions with our professor guiding our discussion. For example, instead of just hearing a lecture about competitive and corporate strategy in the use of information technology, we read about it on our own time and in class, we just talk about technology giants like Facebook/Google/Apple/Microsoft as well as other business like USAA, Danaher, Trinity Health, etc. and how these strategies play in the real world. It might still be a bit more structured than what I think PBL is (choosing your own exam concepts??? THAT SOUNDS AMAZING TO ME.) Personally, I've found it very stimulating and engaging. And you know you BETTER keep up with the readings or the professor just might just call on you and you don't want to look silly. I'm also proud that my school has one of the top business schools in the country. Clearly this model works to help students learn, not just for medicine either.

Forgive my blabbing I'm very passionate about my ug degree haha. 🙂

 

[notbobtrustme]

You have to consider the gargantuan student loan debts that many new doctors have. I know doctors who graduate in the late 1990s who are still barely paying back their student loan debt. Also if run your own office, you have expenses there as well. Opening up a practice is a huge expense.

350k for a decent house in SoCal, I have a hard time believing that.

Rates on student loans were so low back then that paying extra was pissing money away. Why would you ever pay extra on a 2% loan when you could use that money to invest in the market which is generating 7-10%? That's why they are still paying their student loasn, because it makes financial sense. It has nothing to do with sstudent loan burden. Today's student loans are a different story, but even then, you are looking at a 30-fold return on investment with even the lowest paying specialty.

 

[Seth Joo]

The thread has veered somewhat. FWIW, all the stats I've read place physician salaries at somewhere lower than 10% of medical expenditure. It's just talked about so often--mostly by the political left--because the "rich" are an easy target, and if you are targeting the rich, you can get the populists fired-up to vote you into office and, thus, push your legislation through.

I get frustrated by the red herring attacks on doctor pay because it makes actually really good and highly educated people out to be greedy criminals who care nothing for the sick and injured, while the mega-rich continue getting mega rich.

Just because making 6-figures puts one in among the top earners doesn't mean they are living like the Nip/Tuck, Private Practice dramas make it out to be.

Frankly, if anyone in society deserves to be rich, it's physicians; they are the most educated people in society after all. I have a problem with a president (or any political figure) who demonizes people who have an insane amount of schooling and training for making money while he parades around with LeBron James and Jay-Z who have more money than any doc could ever dream of making, which they earned by adding nothing of genuine value to society.

Docs deserve to be rich. But they aren't "rich" so we can stop trash-talking the money they earn, especially when it contributes so little to the outrageous healthcare costs in our country.

We are not going to be rich, some of us might be "well off" but not more. Some of the older doctors who have been around for a while are rich, but the new generation is not going to fare as well.

 

[didymus]

We are not going to be rich, some of us might be "well off" but not more. Some of the older doctors who have been around for a while are rich, but the new generation is not going to fare as well.

I don't think I've ever met a rich doctor, but I suppose it's a relative concept. Everyone is rich compared to someone else--I mean, the average citizen of India lives on less than $2 a day, so, again, it's all relative.

I consider people making $1mil or more a year to be in the rich category, but there is such immense wealth out there, what do we call those making $5mil a year? $20mil? $100mil? Starts to make the doc who spent 7 or more years after college to get where s/he is, making $150,000 a year not look so "rich."

Again, physicians aren't rich, and as a general population, they haven't ever been. Sure, there are outliers bringing home stacks, but the majority of the docs I know live in modest homes (or rent) and drive Corollas.

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

Let's all hold hands, close our eyes, and imagine ourselves born into a family that are financially able to pay our way through medical school. Let's breathe that in, and let that resonate in our heart chakras. Feels good dont it?

 

[KnuxNole]

I think everyone here realizes even before going to med school that they will never make millions of dollars. After all, if you want to make millions of dollars, medicine isn't one of the first things(or five) that comes to mind. I don't even know where that idea comes from haha. Remember, 300K is amazing! I can't find one thing wrong with that. I never understood when anyone says "I need to be paid to compensate for all the years of hard work!". I usually assume they must be exaggerating or being overdramatic :/

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I think everyone here realizes even before going to med school that they will never make millions of dollars. After all, if you want to make millions of dollars, medicine isn't one of the first things(or five) that comes to mind. I don't even know where that idea comes from haha. Remember, 300K is amazing! I can't find one thing wrong with that. I never understood when anyone says "I need to be paid to compensate for all the years of hard work!". I usually assume they must be exaggerating or being overdramatic :/

Exactly. And aren't they doing the job that they love and "can't see themselves doing anything other than medicine"?

 

[as1212559]

Yeah our lectures are pretty worthless sometimes...














































































































THANKS OBAMA

 

[didymus]

I think everyone here realizes even before going to med school that they will never make millions of dollars. After all, if you want to make millions of dollars, medicine isn't one of the first things(or five) that comes to mind. I don't even know where that idea comes from haha. Remember, 300K is amazing! I can't find one thing wrong with that. I never understood when anyone says "I need to be paid to compensate for all the years of hard work!". I usually assume they must be exaggerating or being overdramatic :/

I find it equally baffling when people suggest doctors should be paid less. I can understand people thinking physicians could stand to be paid more, but I cannot comprehend people arguing for doctors to be paid less. I've not yet seen anyone advocating for million dollar salaries for doctors (maybe someone did earlier and I overlooked it), but if they did, I think we would all agree that person would be thinking irrationally about the value of the profession. That said, there are people out there who seem to express guilt and shame over what doctors get paid--and that *gasp* they may one day get paid such. I just don't understand that at all.

If you want to make millions, don't go into medicine! That's the SDN mantra. Well, we should add next to that: If you are ashamed of making six figures, don't go into medicine!

Seriously, the ones who want to get rich and the ones who want to stay poor are ruining it for the rest of us. 😉

 

[Seth Joo]

I don't think I've ever met a rich doctor, but I suppose it's a relative concept. Everyone is rich compared to someone else--I mean, the average citizen of India lives on less than $2 a day, so, again, it's all relative.

I consider people making $1mil or more a year to be in the rich category, but there is such immense wealth out there, what do we call those making $5mil a year? $20mil? $100mil? Starts to make the doc who spent 7 or more years after college to get where s/he is, making $150,000 a year not look so "rich."

Again, physicians aren't rich, and as a general population, they haven't ever been. Sure, there are outliers bringing home stacks, but the majority of the docs I know live in modest homes (or rent) and drive Corollas.

A lot of premeds I know have a naive image of becoming a rich doctor. There are some rich physicians, most however are not wealthy.

The typical cost of a medical education at a private school is now upwards of $300,000 to $400,000 for four years. Most students are paying for school with loans so add in interest. This is a major financial burden being put on students.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I find it equally baffling when people suggest doctors should be paid less. I can understand people thinking physicians could stand to be paid more, but I cannot comprehend people arguing for doctors to be paid less. I've not yet seen anyone advocating for million dollar salaries for doctors (maybe someone did earlier and I overlooked it), but if they did, I think we would all agree that person would be thinking irrationally about the value of the profession. That said, there are people out there who seem to express guilt and shame over what doctors get paid--and that *gasp* they may one day get paid such. I just don't understand that at all.

If you want to make millions, don't go into medicine! That's the SDN mantra. Well, we should add next to that: If you are ashamed of making six figures, don't go into medicine!

Seriously, the ones who want to get rich and the ones who want to stay poor are ruining it for the rest of us. 😉

To be fair, if you listed any profession making more than 100k, chances are the public would want to see their salaries decrease.

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

To be fair, if you listed any profession making more than 100k, chances are the public would want to see their salaries decrease.

Totally agree with this statement. Let me cry about making a 6 figure salary #firstworldproblems

 

[didymus]

To be fair, if you listed any profession making more than 100k, chances are the public would want to see their salaries decrease.

Agreed.

 

[didymus]

A lot of premeds I know have a naive image of becoming a rich doctor. There are some rich physicians, most however are not wealthy.

The typical cost of a medical education at a private school is now upwards of $300,000 to $400,000 for four years. Most students are paying for school with loans so add in interest. This is a major financial burden being put on students.

Indeed, it is incredibly burdensome. I would argue, though, even if those student loan burdens were lowered substantially, physicians would still be worth the salaries they currently make. The chief justification for how much docs get paid is not that they (we) have to pay back exorbitant student loans; it has more to do with the vastness of the training, and the nature of the work insofar as its substantial value to society.

I wish there were a way to split threads. I want to keep talking about this and about skipping lectures!

 

[NorthernMav]

Kim Kardashian is far better with money management than Congress. And because of this, many things are "under attack" in order to pay for this Affordable Care Act; aside from just physicians' salaries.
Medically inexperienced bureaucrats determining provider payments =

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I am a firm believer in skipping classes if you know you can teach yourself "better" or faster on your own. It worked out for a lot of my classes in undergrad; although not all of my classes. Some I HAD to go to.

However, one thing I had a question about was whether or not not attending class in med school could adversely affect anything in your future not related to grades? Like even in undergrad for the classes that I would skip a lot, I would make sure I pop my head in every once in a while, and/or make sure I am still really tight with the professor. It was a lot of these professors that gave me opportunities for research, LOR, etc...

So like can you essentially skip a lot of pre-clinical crap in med school because the only LOR that really matter are from clinical years? Is there any particular bonus to going to class other than having your professor know that you exist?

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Kim Kardashian is far better with money management than Congress. And because of this, many things are "under attack" in order to pay for this Affordable Care Act; aside from just physicians' salaries.
Medically inexperienced bureaucrats determining provider payments =

Because, unfortunately, medically experienced individuals think that 200K/year is below the poverty line.

 

[cabinbuilder]

So like can you essentially skip a lot of pre-clinical crap in med school because the only LOR that really matter are from clinical years? Is there any particular bonus to going to class other than having your professor know that you exist?

I AM TOTALLY GOING TO GET FLAMED FOR THIS, I GET THAT!!! Now, I went to LECOM where attendance is mandatory but don't think folks didn't skip despite that rule. Where I saw it come back to bite them was in the instance a particular student was struggling to stay above the 70% line for a given class. I tell you there was NO LOVE from admin for those who skipped (they do keep track) from those who were there every day and still struggling. many times people fail by ONE QUESTION. Those who didn't go to class ended up in remediation over the summer, those who did got the benefit of the doubt.

 

[NorthernMav]

I AM TOTALLY GOING TO GET FLAMED FOR THIS, I GET THAT!!! Now, I went to LECOM where attendance is mandatory but don't think folks didn't skip despite that rule. Where I saw it come back to bite them was in the instance a particular student was struggling to stay above the 70% line for a given class. I tell you there was NO LOVE from admin for those who skipped (they do keep track) from those who were there every day and still struggling. many times people fail by ONE QUESTION. Those who didn't go to class ended up in remediation over the summer, those who did got the benefit of the doubt.

That makes sense, though. If you chose to neglect a rule and then do poorly because of that neglect then isn't that your own fault? However, I feel like if you are starting down that slippery slope of doing poorly, then you should probably go to class and see if it helps!

As a rule, I always attend class up until the first few quizes and/or first major exam and then determine whether or not I need to go to class. Just my approach.

 

[guylewis]

Kim Kardashian is far better with money management than Congress. And because of this, many things are "under attack" in order to pay for this Affordable Care Act; aside from just physicians' salaries.
Medically inexperienced bureaucrats determining provider payments =

ummmmm you know you're exactly describing what private insurance companies have been doing for the past several decades, right? at least now they can't discriminate against you if you have preexisting conditions, or are so "unfortunate" to be born a female. and now insurance companies have to follow the 80/20 rule which states that 80% of the money you give to insurance companies have to be used for your actual care, and not for CEO salaries, bonuses, advertising costs, yada yada. if they are spending more than 20% on that crap that doesn't affect you or your care then they have to give you back a check in the mail for the difference. I know, my family and friends received these checks. and no decisions are ever made by the government beaurocrats, this is the death panel lie perpetuated by Sarah Palin which was labeled as the 2009 Lie Of The Year by Politifact

 

[NorthernMav]

Sarah Palin would be an excellent president

 

[guylewis]

also, primary care physician pay is increasing per year and the rate of increase is projected to go up in subsequent years, so, the end is not nigh for doctors salaries. buy the gold plated shark tank...or if things are feeling tight, then maybe the silver plated shark tank.

http://medicaleconomics.modernmedic...ary-growth-projected-outpace-specialists-2014
http://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/physician-salaries-projected-increase
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja...o-221k-for-primary-care-396k-for-specialists/

 

[notbobtrustme]

So like can you essentially skip a lot of pre-clinical crap in med school because the only LOR that really matter are from clinical years? Is there any particular bonus to going to class other than having your professor know that you exist?

It basically comes down to learning preferences unless class is mandatory, then you have to go in order to get enough points to pass.

 

[NorthernMav]

also, primary care physician pay is increasing per year and the rate of increase is projected to go up in subsequent years, so, the end is not nigh for doctors salaries. buy the gold plated shark tank...or if things are feeling tight, then maybe the silver plated shark tank.

http://medicaleconomics.modernmedic...ary-growth-projected-outpace-specialists-2014
http://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/physician-salaries-projected-increase
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja...o-221k-for-primary-care-396k-for-specialists/

Good! We need more primary care physicians.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I AM TOTALLY GOING TO GET FLAMED FOR THIS, I GET THAT!!! Now, I went to LECOM where attendance is mandatory but don't think folks didn't skip despite that rule. Where I saw it come back to bite them was in the instance a particular student was struggling to stay above the 70% line for a given class. I tell you there was NO LOVE from admin for those who skipped (they do keep track) from those who were there every day and still struggling. many times people fail by ONE QUESTION. Those who didn't go to class ended up in remediation over the summer, those who did got the benefit of the doubt.

That is incredible! I mean this is how it was in undergrad for sure. Those who were obviously passionate to learn and were trying were shown a little more compassion from the professors... that cool that it still applies to medical school. Life is good ^_^

 

[mcloaf]

That is incredible! I mean this is how it was in undergrad for sure. Those who were obviously passionate to learn and were trying were shown a little more compassion from the professors... that cool that it still applies to medical school. Life is good ^_^

Eh, the situation described is highly school specific and would only ever fly somewhere with required lecture, which is pretty undesirable from the get go for most.

I can't imagine you'd ever need or want a LOR from a preclinical professor unless you end up doing research with them. So, in answer to your earlier question, assuming you're somewhere without mandatory lecture no there isn't some sort of social capital benefit to attending class.

Also, the idea that people who aren't going to lecture aren't trying is flawed.

 

[coolingglasses]

I AM TOTALLY GOING TO GET FLAMED FOR THIS, I GET THAT!!! Now, I went to LECOM where attendance is mandatory but don't think folks didn't skip despite that rule. Where I saw it come back to bite them was in the instance a particular student was struggling to stay above the 70% line for a given class. I tell you there was NO LOVE from admin for those who skipped (they do keep track) from those who were there every day and still struggling. many times people fail by ONE QUESTION. Those who didn't go to class ended up in remediation over the summer, those who did got the benefit of the doubt.

If I went to a school where my lecture attendance was tracked, it might alter my actions w/r/t attendance but it wouldn't help me any more or less with my learning.

But yeah, if you're not doing well you need to start utilizing all your resources and they do keep track of that here (you sign in for any tutoring/help sessions/faculty appointments you attend whether voluntary or required).

That makes sense, though. If you chose to neglect a rule and then do poorly because of that neglect then isn't that your own fault? However, I feel like if you are starting down that slippery slope of doing poorly, then you should probably go to class and see if it helps!

As a rule, I always attend class up until the first few quizes and/or first major exam and then determine whether or not I need to go to class. Just my approach.

Pretty much what I ended up doing.

 

[abolt18]

I go to listen to a professors first 1 or 2 lectures to give them a chance. If I LOVE their lecture I'll keep going (2 profs so far. Both anatomy). After that I just decided going to a quiet room by myself and turning on some classical music was much more efficient for me.

Also, as was stated you shouldn't really want it need a letter of recommendation from a professor. You really want letters from doctors during your clinical years. Especially doctors in the specialty you're pursuing. The better known the doc (for good reasons) the more power the letter has to benefit you. Unless of course you're very involved in research, then you can surely get a letter. Personally I hate taking to my professors i.e. I never do it. If I don't understand a concept I simply use my friend Dr. Google. That was one thing I hated about applying for med school. The idea that you had to make up ridiculous excuses to talk to/get to know a professor for a LOR.

 

[coolingglasses]

I go to listen to a professors first 1 or 2 lectures to give them a chance. If I LOVE their lecture I'll keep going (2 profs so far. Both anatomy). After that I just decided going to a quiet room by myself and turning on some classical music was much more efficient for me.

Also, as was stated you shouldn't really want it need a letter of recommendation from a professor. You really want letters from doctors during your clinical years. Especially doctors in the specialty you're pursuing. The better known the doc (for good reasons) the more power the letter has to benefit you. Unless of course you're very involved in research, then you can surely get a letter. Personally I hate taking to my professors i.e. I never do it. If I don't understand a concept I simply use my friend Dr. Google. That was one thing I hated about applying for med school. The idea that you had to make up ridiculous excuses to talk to/get to know a professor for a LOR.

I was fortunate in that I got letters from professors I wanted to actually hang around with and didn't have to arbitrarily visit for a letter. But it was :exactly: three professors including non-science. As a matter of complete coincidence I had been playing bar trivia with one of them right before I took their class lol

 

[hallowmann]

Guys, relax with the whole doctor payment things. Docs aren't starving. Also, $200,000/yr might not be a lot in some parts of LA, NYC, etc. but its a hell of a lot in the majority of the country. That said, I know a ton of docs making >$500k in areas where average pay is closer to $40k. They ARE the ultra rich. As you said though, physicians are some of the few individuals that deserve to get paid well, and they do.

With regards to loans, they suck. We should be focused on reducing them and not on making more money just so we can pay off the ridiculous loans. Also, I also know people who graduated in the late 90s and are still paying off loans. They also could have paid them off earlier, but wanted to buy a big house, brand new cars, and send their kids to private elementary schools where they learn how to ride horse at the age of 6. Sure, they still have $80,000 in loans, but they are fine with it because they are living how they want to and still making >$200k/yr.

Now of course, we'd all love to get paid more, but when the system is broken, we all need to pitch in to at least take steps in the right direction. This isn't a left/right thing (in fact both have tried to pass laws shockingly similar to the ACA in the past), its an American thing. We should all be ashamed that a quarter of American children in some areas (like my state) don't have health coverage, let alone food to eat. We should all be ashamed that millions of Americans are scared to death when they get sick, not because they are worried about their health, but because they have no idea how they are going to pay for care and had (past tense) no idea whether or not they'd be dropped from their health insurance for actually getting sick. These are issues that most of the developed world doesn't have to worry about, but I digress...

Anyways, with regards to the PBL vs. Lecture issue, I personally love PBL. Here at LECOM upperclassmen constantly hear from preceptors about how far ahead the students are in terms of the way they think or how comfortable they are in clinical settings. I honestly believe PBL is to some degree responsible for that. Plus, the PBL students consistently do very well on boards. It is tough at first, but the way its set up, you have to really learn the material, and from what I understand that's how we are going to be learning throughout our medical career.

Really though, its more about being sure that this is how you will learn best. If I was in lecture-based, I'd hate it and probably skim by with just enough work to pass. I also know people that hate reading, and would have hated everything about PBL. Both are proven methods of learning, so its all about knowing what works best for you.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Now of course, we'd all love to get paid more, but when the system is broken, we all need to pitch in to at least take steps in the right direction. This isn't a left/right thing (in fact both have tried to pass laws shockingly similar to the ACA in the past), its an American thing. We should all be ashamed that a quarter of American children in some areas (like my state) don't have health coverage, let alone food to eat. We should all be ashamed that millions of Americans are scared to death when they get sick, not because they are worried about their health, but because they have no idea how they are going to pay for care and had (past tense) no idea whether or not they'd be dropped from their health insurance for actually getting sick. These are issues that most of the developed world doesn't have to worry about, but I digress...
.

Great post. I agree with everything you said. The situation we have in the U.S. is embarrassing to be honest. I know a person who had to live off drinking soups for years because he couldn't afford paying for his hemorrhoid surgery. I, for one, remember chewing my food on one side of my mouth because I didn't have the financial means to do dental work on the other side.

 

[hemlocktree]

Really though, its more about being sure that this is how you will learn best. If I was in lecture-based, I'd hate it and probably skim by with just enough work to pass. I also know people that hate reading, and would have hated everything about PBL. Both are proven methods of learning, so its all about knowing what works best for you.

But don't you read a ton even if you're in a lecture curriculum as well?

Also, a secondary question I had was about review books vs. textbooks. Does one lead to better comprehension of the material? Memorizing a list of bullet points would really bother me, I'd much rather actually "understand" the material even if it requires more reading.

 

[cabinbuilder]

But don't you read a ton even if you're in a lecture curriculum as well?

Also, a secondary question I had was about review books vs. textbooks. Does one lead to better comprehension of the material? Memorizing a list of bullet points would really bother me, I'd much rather actually "understand" the material even if it requires more reading.

There is so much material to get through in medical school you will be reduced to bullet point learning. Most don't read the texts, there just isn't time. It's not like undergrad. It's full force, in your face, try to breathe type of learning. It's all about passing the boards. Sad, but true.

 

[hemlocktree]

There is so much material to get through in medical school you will be reduced to bullet point learning. Most don't read the texts, there just isn't time. It's not like undergrad. It's full force, in your face, try to breathe type of learning. It's all about passing the boards. Sad, but true.

But then how do PBL students find time to actually read the textbooks, which they claim they do?

 

[hemlocktree]

.

 

[mcloaf]

Anyways, with regards to the PBL vs. Lecture issue, I personally love PBL. Here at LECOM upperclassmen constantly hear from preceptors about how far ahead the students are in terms of the way they think or how comfortable they are in clinical settings. I honestly believe PBL is to some degree responsible for that. Plus, the PBL students consistently do very well on boards. It is tough at first, but the way its set up, you have to really learn the material, and from what I understand that's how we are going to be learning throughout our medical career.

Really though, its more about being sure that this is how you will learn best. If I was in lecture-based, I'd hate it and probably skim by with just enough work to pass. I also know people that hate reading, and would have hated everything about PBL. Both are proven methods of learning, so its all about knowing what works best for you.

Do you guys share rotation sites with lecture-based schools? What's the comparison by which you're "far ahead"?

I don't think "doing well on boards" can really be an argument in favor of either approach, since students from both approaches do well.

Definitely agree that most people will probably strongly prefer one or the other.

 

[cabinbuilder]

But then how do PBL students find time to actually read the textbooks, which they claim they do?

Because they (PBL) sit with their groups for half the time that lecture folks are in class and then study the rest on their own, hence they teach themselves the material by reading the textbooks. PBL meets during the week to discuss their cases but are not at school like those in lecture so they have the time to read everything. Lecture folks learn from the powerpoints - the bullet point approach.

 

[cabinbuilder]

..

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

It depends on the city and state, if you live in the Northeast or West Coast, given the kinds of prices for homes in those regions of the country, a decent home in a reasonably good neighborhood is going to cost a lot of money. Student loan debts have become as big as home mortgages.

I live near Boston, and an average fixer upper is over 500k. A typical family doctor makes 150k, factor in taxes and student loan payments, you do not have a whole lot left for yourself. I know a lot of people in Boston who earn six figure incomes have and have Dr. in front of their name, yet they rent.

If you live in the Midwest, maybe its a different story.

I went to CCOM. Nearly everything, ~90% was in the notes. The remaining 10% was taught in lecture. I never, ever went to class because I can read my own notes. My theory was that if I own the 90% that wasn't taught I would do better than the people that did go to class that tried so hard for that extra 10%. I was right.

 

[dermpathdoc]

For the time and money I have and will put in I'm definitely planning on a McMansion and a few Italian cars (after school is paid off of course). But I'll pass on other 'luxuries' that I don't care for in order to get them. And there will be a secret passageway or two. Maybe a sliding bookshelf into my extra office. 🙂

I thought I was going to be very comfortable after completing residency and fellowship. I was for about 10 years, had the Jag and nice townhouse and lots of money in bank. Then came family health issues with relocation to a job that ended up being nonexistent within a year. Unable to find a decent pathology job and working Locums meant becoming an academic at a new school paying well below median salary. I don't break even, my retirement cushion is dwindling rapidly. Don't believe you are going to have your loans paid off unless you get something like Ortho, ophtho or Derm.

 

[abolt18]

I thought I was going to be very comfortable after completing residency and fellowship. I was for about 10 years, had the Jag and nice townhouse and lots of money in bank. Then came family health issues with relocation to a job that ended up being nonexistent within a year. Unable to find a decent pathology job and working Locums meant becoming an academic at a new school paying well below median salary. I don't break even, my retirement cushion is dwindling rapidly. Don't believe you are going to have your loans paid off unless you get something like Ortho, ophtho or Derm.

Wow very sorry to hear it! I realize that things don't always go according to plan, but I have a plan nonetheless and will adapt as needed. Even as a family practice doc (which I won't be) if I live off 60k for a few years while making family practice median salary, I can still pay all student loans off in under 8 yrs. Again, this is potentially overly optimistic, but I'll adapt as needed when I get to that point. I generally live very frugally with my wife and intend to continue to do so. I hate debt more than I love 'things.'

I sincerely hope your situation improves. I have heard that path jobs were tougher to get these days, especially good ones.