Why DOs are just as awesome as MDs.

[SpecterGT260]

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so, you applied to DO schools, received admission and told them no thank you?

That's like the time I went to a restaurant, payed for a steak and when it came out...I threw it on the ground! "Such was my distaste" for red meat....haha.

...would you rather I call BS, or stupidity? 😉

Once you interview yourself, young padawan (or grasshoppah, whichever you prefer) you will understand that aside from the school making sure they will like you, a significant portion is to make sure you like the school. I didn't. I was borderline pissed when I left the interview based on a number of things I saw there so I opted to not complete my other DO secondaries (which, had I not been admitted to an MD school I would have reconsidered since their apps close after the final MD decisions go out 😉) and did actually take the GRE and started preparing things for grad school apps.

So your analogy is a little more like ordering a T-bone, and getting pissed when you get a Salisbury steak and having the pre-waiter call BS on you because "its still beef so its basically the same" 😉 I don't mean to belittle DO with that comparison, I just found your analogy to be lacking 👍

 

[SpecterGT260]

Not anymore.NBOME just enacted a 6 attempt max starting in 2016.

"A policy change to limit the number of times a candidate
can take any of the COMLEX-USA examinations was
approved by the Board. The following language has been
added to the COMLEX-USA Bulletin of Information for the July
2012 update.
NOTICE of PLANNED CHANGE to POLICY:
Effective July 1, 2016, candidates taking COMLEX-USA
examinations will be limited to a total of six (6) attempts for
each examination (COMLEX-USA Level 1, Level 2-CE, Level 2-PE
and Level 3), including but not limited to all attempts prior to
July 1, 2016. After June 30, 2012, no candidate will be allowed
to take any examination more than six (6) times without
obtaining approval from the NBOME"

this is a step in the right direction 👍 SpecterGT260 approves (you can tell them that at the next meeting. They will care. I'm sure of it 😳) But seriously, the entire controversy will go away when overt "bar lowering" (or heightening? I always felt like this was a limbo metaphor...) goes away all together.

Nobody is saying that DOs arent quality physicians. However they do not have the strict quality control processes that MDs do (if you accept an analogy to industry QC practices).

 

[HalfListic]

No, you don't get it yet specter. Look again...you applied to DO schools and were disappointed when you got a DO school.

Its your fault for not doing the research, wouldnt you agree. I mean, who doesnt know that DO schools have OMM in the curriculum? That was your fault, and it shows nothing about the quality of DO school or training. It really just shows that you applied without understanding what you were doing...

 

[deleted103644]

It's not that I don't have an argument. It's 100% that I don't see how carrying on with someone so entrenched in this obsession with putting others down is going to be a worthwhile use of my time.

I have not put anyone down.

I have not personally attacked you or any other DO or DO hopeful on this thread. You're tying up your entire sense of self worth in the public perception of the DO degree, so you mistake my questioning of it with a personal affront.

Meanwhile, you're accusing me of lying, etc.

 

[deleted103644]

This part is true.... i always wondered why MD students have the 7 year rule with attempt caps on USMLE but there are no restrictions for the majority of states for COMLEX in terms of # of attempts or time frame for total completion.

That actually isn't even what I meant - I meant to say accreditation, not licensing (was referring to the schools, not the physicians).

 

[SpecterGT260]

No, you don't get it yet specter. Look again...you applied to DO schools and were disappointed when you got a DO school.

Its your fault for not doing the research, wouldnt you agree. I mean, who doesnt know that DO schools have OMM in the curriculum? That was your fault, and it shows nothing about the quality of DO school or training. It really just shows that you applied without understanding what you were doing...

No, you don't get it yet HalfLing. Look again. I knew they had OMM. It is true that I didnt realize at the time that I would dislike OMM to that degree, but this is also the way this school treated it. They might as well have been the Palmer School of Osteopathic Medicine. But the OMM was only the icing on the cake for the reasons I disliked the school. So maybe if that was your angle I can see a little further validity in your analogy.

In truth, the DO schools were backups. Research was the backup after that, but MD was the goal. After applying and then interviewing DO, I decided it wasnt for me because I wouldnt be able to stomach that "icing". Again, not saying anyone who can stomach it is somehow inferior. Just saying that the ability to eat crap isnt necessarily a skill I would tout on a first date and as such it probably doesnt belong on a CV either 😉 But that is opinion, you do whatever you wish with what you learn.


But I digress.... the point is I knew what the schools offered, or at least what their pamphlets said. I knew a little about OMM at the time. I didnt apply blindly. Also, me not liking OMM has nothign to do at all with the quality of the training. That was another discussion between johnny and someone else. The only point I was making there was in response to wjs and why I don't accept the "well we dont really believe OMM anyways" as a valid defense of the position. Remember, I said in that post "this isnt a valid defense, it is in fact the problem". It is the logical discrepancy between being a science and evidence based profession while pretending to adhere to bogus notions (not all, but some) in order to appease the hierarchy. That is logically indefensible in my opinion.


Remember halfsey, 99% of all incoming M1s have no idea what any particular specialty actually entails. So this line of questioning you are pursuing is actually a double edged sword

 

[SpecterGT260]

That actually isn't even what I meant - I meant to say accreditation, not licensing (was referring to the schools, not the physicians).

I don't know that their accreditation standards for schools are more lax... (i dont know either way) but if you are referring to MCAT and GPA averages, the "standards" are actually much lower than average for LCME schools. The supply and demand alone could explain why MDs have higher scores if this is what you meant. Why are AOA (or whatever they use....) schools unlikely to meet LCME requirements?

 

[SLC]

So your analogy is a little more like ordering a T-bone, and getting pissed when you get a Salisbury steak and having the pre-waiter call BS on you because "its still beef so its basically the same" 😉 I don't mean to belittle DO with that comparison, I just found your analogy to be lacking 👍

I think it's a little more like not knowing the difference between a NY Strip and T-bone, then being pissed when what you get is not what you thought it would be.

It's up to you to learn about these things before you attend the interviews, you're the one who apparently didn't take the time.

Look, I'm about as un-enthused for OMM as any DO student you're likely to find. I'll be the first in line to tell you that most of it seems like BS on it's face. But I've already used some of it, that I previously thought was BS and seen immediate benefits from it.

Just this past week we relocated to a new state for my clinical training. My wife does not have insurance coverage yet and came down with an URI. Two days in she started complaining of ear and throat pain. I instantly thought otitis media and whipped out the otoscope to take a look. Sure enough she was getting a milky white effusion which filled up about half the space behind the tympanic membrane bilaterally; at a minimum this is a wonderful environment for a middle ear infection to set up. It was also possible that this was the beginning of an already present infection.

I remembered some OMM techniques that we were taught to address these types of things, applied them and checked in with her the next morning with the intention of talking her into seeing a doctor. She still had some throat pain, but the effusions were resolved and her nasal congestion was improved. I've continued the treatments for two days now and this morning she's feeling much much better, symptoms have resolved.

Did I cure an ear infection and sinusitis in my wife? Absolutely not. Did I help the symptoms? Absolutely. Do I think this is something that will make me a better doctor? Not necessarily. Will some of my patients? You bet they will. Is this something I will use regularly? No. Is this something I'd even bill for? Absolutely not. Will I completely write it off as pseudoscience not worthy of my attention from here on out? Not at all.

Either way, you wrote off OMM based on a demonstration at an interview if I remember correctly. That should be considered a sign of naiveté, but you'd have us regard you as some type of enlightened super-student, who we should look up to. I'm sorry but that crap wont fly here. You're no different than anyone else with a closed mind, so engrained in one way of thinking that they would sooner die than consider changing their stance.

I've got to say that JohnnyDrama, and to a lesser extent, you, seem to have such an unhealthy obsession with the pre-DO section that it borders on "little brotherism". Are you threatened by us?

 

[HalfListic]

Well, sphincter 😉 (since we're using nick names) I am holding you accountable for your experience. I think you shouldn't have been so surprised. You state that you turned down an acceptance because "such was my distaste for OMM". My only point is that you wasted time and money on several applications, and that was your fault.

But, that's ok...we agree on many points. I also don't agree that the DO profession can live on with the attitude of, well, I just don't believe some of it. It either needs to be verified or eradicated.

I just hope that those who are applying now won't make your same mistake. DO should only be a backup if you plan to accept and acceptance, otherwise, you waste your time and money, as well as the time of many others.

 

[HalfListic]

I think it's a little more like not knowing the difference between a NY Strip and T-bone, then being pissed when what you get is not what you thought it would be.

It's up to you to learn about these things before you attend the interviews, you're the one who apparently didn't take the time.

Look, I'm about as un-enthused for OMM as any DO student you're likely to find. I'll be the first in line to tell you that most of it seems like BS on it's face. But I've already used some of it, that I previously thought was BS and seen immediate benefits from it.

Just this past week we relocated to a new state for my clinical training. My wife does not have insurance coverage yet and came down with an URI. Two days in she started complaining of ear and throat pain. I instantly thought otitis media and whipped out the otoscope to take a look. Sure enough she was getting a milky white effusion which filled up about half the space behind the tympanic membrane bilaterally; at a minimum this is a wonderful environment for a middle ear infection to set up. It was also possible that this was the beginning of an already present infection.

I remembered some OMM techniques that we were taught to address these types of things, applied them and checked in with her the next morning with the intention of talking her into seeing a doctor. She still had some throat pain, but the effusions were resolved and her nasal congestion was improved. I've continued the treatments for two days now and this morning she's feeling much much better, symptoms have resolved.

Did I cure an ear infection and sinusitis in my wife? Absolutely not. Did I help the symptoms? Absolutely. Do I think this is something that will make me a better doctor? Not necessarily. Will some of my patients? You bet they will. Is this something I will use regularly? No. Is this something I'd even bill for? Absolutely not. Will I completely write it off as pseudoscience not worthy of my attention from here on out? Not at all.

Either way, you wrote off OMM based on a demonstration at an interview if I remember correctly. That should be considered a sign of naiveté, but you'd have us regard you as some type of enlightened super-student, who we should look up to. I'm sorry but that crap wont fly here. You're no different than anyone else with a closed mind, so engrained in one way of thinking that they would sooner die than consider changing their stance.

I've got to say that JohnnyDrama, and to a lesser extent, you, seem to have such an unhealthy obsession with the pre-DO section that it borders on "little brotherism". Are you threatened by us?

+1

This is a good attitude and outlook.

 

[SLC]

Nobody is saying that DOs arent quality physicians. However they do not have the strict quality control processes that MDs do (if you accept an analogy to industry QC practices).

Are you referring to the grade replacement policy? If so, do you honestly want to defend the stance that quality in, invariantly equals quality out? Do you even expect us to assume that everyone with MD level undergraduate stats is a quality potential physician?

Surely you realize that becoming a good physician involves so much more than undergraduate grades.

I mean, I've been through the first year of medical school. It doesn't take a 3.7 or a 35 MCAT to succeed at medical school. It takes dedication, and a knack for medical science (not basic science).

 

[SpecterGT260]

Well, sphincter 😉 (since we're using nick names) I am holding you accountable for your experience. I think you shouldn't have been so surprised. You state that you turned down an acceptance because "such was my distaste for OMM". My only point is that you wasted time and money on several applications, and that was your fault.

But, that's ok...we agree on many points. I also don't agree that the DO profession can live on with the attitude of, well, I just don't believe some of it. It either needs to be verified or eradicated.

I just hope that those who are applying now won't make your same mistake. DO should only be a backup if you plan to accept and acceptance, otherwise, you waste your time and money, as well as the time of many others.

That was hurtful and unnecessary 🙁


I will admit that I was ignorant to what OMM really was - my idea of it, and the way that school presented it, were not what I had in mind so my plan of being able to deal with it to get the doctor badge was fruitless. honestly I don't see the point in emphasizing this. It is beside the point. The point, once again, was that saying that disbelief in OMM somehow defends the DO decision. My point doesnt go so far as to say it is a bad decision, only that this argument doesn't have the desired effect that wsj wanted it do when he used it (in my opinion) furthermore, did you see my edit about the double edged sword? By emphasizing this point - that I was somehow foolish for deciding against DO after applying after seeing it first hand in a classroom setting - you are in effect hanging all of the DO experience upon OMM. My point in applying actually was "well they arent really all that different" which is the predominant battle cry of the pre-osteo board. My reality after experiencing it was "for me, they are different enough that I don't want to go down that road" Just be aware of the implications of your arguments here sherlock (that wasnt facetious, it was in regards to your avatar 🙂)

 

[SpecterGT260]

Are you referring to the grade replacement policy? If so, do you honestly want to defend the stance that quality in, invariantly equals quality out? Do you even expect us to assume that everyone with MD level undergraduate stats is a quality potential physician?

Surely you realize that becoming a good physician involves so much more than undergraduate grades.

I mean, I've been through the first year of medical school. It doesn't take a 3.7 or a 35 MCAT to succeed at medical school. It takes dedication, and a knack for medical science (not basic science).

lower UG grades
grade replacement (see earlier reasoning on why having a lower median GPA after grade replacement isn't a good thing)
lower MCAT
Separate board tests (with AOA published data that equates a median COMLEX score to be below passing score for USMLE, although the validity of this is widely debated - I do however find it ironic that the DO community is bashing an AOA publication)
separate and exclusionary residency match program (AOA)
lower requirements for licensing in terms of retakes and time to pass (although this was recently rectified per an earlier post, to take effect in 2016)


so with all of that.... Id say that yes, there is lower quality control. If you understand the analogy you will understand that a product lacking quality control doesn't mean at all that it is a poor quality product.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I think it's a little more like not knowing the difference between a NY Strip and T-bone, then being pissed when what you get is not what you thought it would be.

It's up to you to learn about these things before you attend the interviews, you're the one who apparently didn't take the time.

Look, I'm about as un-enthused for OMM as any DO student you're likely to find. I'll be the first in line to tell you that most of it seems like BS on it's face. But I've already used some of it, that I previously thought was BS and seen immediate benefits from it.

Just this past week we relocated to a new state for my clinical training. My wife does not have insurance coverage yet and came down with an URI. Two days in she started complaining of ear and throat pain. I instantly thought otitis media and whipped out the otoscope to take a look. Sure enough she was getting a milky white effusion which filled up about half the space behind the tympanic membrane bilaterally; at a minimum this is a wonderful environment for a middle ear infection to set up. It was also possible that this was the beginning of an already present infection.

I remembered some OMM techniques that we were taught to address these types of things, applied them and checked in with her the next morning with the intention of talking her into seeing a doctor. She still had some throat pain, but the effusions were resolved and her nasal congestion was improved. I've continued the treatments for two days now and this morning she's feeling much much better, symptoms have resolved.

Did I cure an ear infection and sinusitis in my wife? Absolutely not. Did I help the symptoms? Absolutely. Do I think this is something that will make me a better doctor? Not necessarily. Will some of my patients? You bet they will. Is this something I will use regularly? No. Is this something I'd even bill for? Absolutely not. Will I completely write it off as pseudoscience not worthy of my attention from here on out? Not at all.

Either way, you wrote off OMM based on a demonstration at an interview if I remember correctly. That should be considered a sign of naiveté, but you'd have us regard you as some type of enlightened super-student, who we should look up to. I'm sorry but that crap wont fly here. You're no different than anyone else with a closed mind, so engrained in one way of thinking that they would sooner die than consider changing their stance.

I've got to say that JohnnyDrama, and to a lesser extent, you, seem to have such an unhealthy obsession with the pre-DO section that it borders on "little brotherism". Are you threatened by us?

This entire response is silly. You and halfsey are hanging your entire argument on the assumption and the implied certainty that everyone who attends an interview must already know exactly how they would feel if they were walking out after 4 years. This isnt the case. If it were, there would be no need for tours on interviews

If you look back, I am not making the red-meat analogy at all. If you guys wanna keep it as such, fine. There is nothing wrong with changing one's mind after finding out more information. To act like it is somehow wrong or foolish is in itself incredibly asinine. I wasnt making the point that the quality of the education was somehow lacking based on my experience. Once again (and oh dear god please let it be the last) the point I was making is that saying "well we dont all believe in OMM anyways" isnt a good defense of the practice. That is all. If you wish to apply that position elsewhere, be my guest. I will be here giggling a little to myself at the absurdity of the tangent 🙂

your anecdote about nasal congestion is also what is wrong with the practice.... where is your negative control?

Furthermore.... No. I am not threatened by you. It is comments like those that make this an issue to begin with. "we are MDs PLUS!" and "oh they are just jelly of our OMM" or the more colloquial "bitches don't know 'bout mah OMM!" that make these topics such pissing matches. You perceive "little brotherism" but if you look over these threads, it is the unprovoked backlash against "little brotherism" that brings this up to begin with. A sort of.... projection or self-fulfilling prophecy if you will 😉

 

[HalfListic]

That was hurtful and unnecessary 🙁


I will admit that I was ignorant to what OMM really was - my idea of it, and the way that school presented it, were not what I had in mind so my plan of being able to deal with it to get the doctor badge was fruitless. honestly I don't see the point in emphasizing this. It is beside the point. The point, once again, was that saying that disbelief in OMM somehow defends the DO decision. My point doesnt go so far as to say it is a bad decision, only that this argument doesn't have the desired effect that wsj wanted it do when he used it (in my opinion) furthermore, did you see my edit about the double edged sword? By emphasizing this point - that I was somehow foolish for deciding against DO after applying after seeing it first hand in a classroom setting - you are in effect hanging all of the DO experience upon OMM. My point in applying actually was "well they arent really all that different" which is the predominant battle cry of the pre-osteo board. My reality after experiencing it was "for me, they are different enough that I don't want to go down that road" Just be aware of the implications of your arguments here sherlock (that wasnt facetious, it was in regards to your avatar 🙂)

Hey, what would we be without any sphincters?? 😉


This sounds better. I didn't see your edit...

You know me, I think of DO as a banner to think differently, and not to align with tradition for traditions sake, etc. OMM may or may not be a part of its future, but to me, that's only an aside.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Hey, what would we be without any sphincters?? 😉


This sounds better. I didn't see your edit...

You know me, I think of DO as a banner to think differently, and not to align with tradition for traditions sake, etc. OMM may or may not be a part of its future, but to me, that's only an aside.

I will easily accept not aligning with tradition for traditions sake. But are you aware that acceptance of much of OMM is exactly "aligning with tradition for traditions sake"

Don't be a medical hipster 😉 being a part of the counter-culture doesnt necessarily make one the free thinker. And every so often, the majority is actually right about something 👍

 

[SLC]

This entire response is silly. You and halfsey are hanging your entire argument on the assumption and the implied certainty that everyone who attends an interview must already know exactly how they would feel if they were walking out after 4 years. This isnt the case. If it were, there would be no need for tours on interviews

No I'm arguing that you shouldn't have been so shocked about OMM after the demo.

I mean, did you make any attempt to see it in action, or learn about it even just a little before you went to your interview? If not, then why did you think you could have some sort of "image in your mind" about what OMM really was? And exactly how do you justify completely writing it off after a 10 minute demo? That's not even enough time to get over the shock of actually being at a medical school interview seeing an OMM demo.

And what qualification did you think you had at that point to be able to say that it was complete quackery? Because that's what you've implied that you decided right then and there. I'd like to know because it would be nice to be able to forgo having to read and evaluate clinical research for myself in the future (sarcasm of course).

 

[deleted103644]

Hey, what would we be without any sphincters?? 😉


This sounds better. I didn't see your edit...

You know me, I think of DO as a banner to think differently, and not to align with tradition for traditions sake, etc. OMM may or may not be a part of its future, but to me, that's only an aside.

If anything, osteopathy is more traditional in that sense.

Mainstream medicine abandons "traditions" when they stop making sense or fail empirical tests.

 

[UCFKnight]

I don't think that you two understand that this debate/discussion is pointless. Neither of you will convince the other of anything, and even more, later you will look back at the time you spent typing on this post and realize how worthless it was. Do something constructive. Watch the news, read a book, or post on something else that will actually benefit someone (although this did make me laugh haha).

 

[deleted103644]

I've got to say that JohnnyDrama, and to a lesser extent, you, seem to have such an unhealthy obsession with the pre-DO section that it borders on "little brotherism". Are you threatened by us?

1) For some reason, there seem to be more posts in DO than any other section (maybe not historically, but you guys are always at the top of my unread list).

2) Once I comment in a thread, it will forever show up in my participated list if someone makes a new comment.

 

[toxicwombat]

Mainstream medicine abandons "traditions" when they stop making sense or fail empirical tests.

This. It's what separates us from the quacks.

However, there is no harm done if you simply go through DO training and then never use OMM in practice. Just treat OMM lab as a nice way to get more comfortable with performing physical exams.

But I agree with johnnydramma that is is indeed extremely annoying to come on this forum and hear emotional anecdote after anecdote about the wonderful albeit unexpected effects of OMM or, much worse, a remark along the lines of "oh but you can't test OMM with controlsand placebo studies... it doesn't work like that"

 

[SpecterGT260]

No I'm arguing that you shouldn't have been so shocked about OMM after the demo.

I mean, did you make any attempt to see it in action, or learn about it even just a little before you went to your interview? If not, then why did you think you could have some sort of "image in your mind" about what OMM really was? And exactly how do you justify completely writing it off after a 10 minute demo? That's not even enough time to get over the shock of actually being at a medical school interview seeing an OMM demo.

And what qualification did you think you had at that point to be able to say that it was complete quackery? Because that's what you've implied that you decided right then and there. I'd like to know because it would be nice to be able to forgo having to read and evaluate clinical research for myself in the future (sarcasm of course).

why the hell not? You don't know what my specific experience was. Let me tell you, it was shady. This is why I didn't completely close the door to other DO apps. I put them on the back burner, but KCUMB and CCOM still had active secondaries (along with a few others.... cant remember). I could have potentially seen myself at a school that didnt give me the feeling that they were passing out laced koolaid for proper hydration during OMM lab.

As for your last question: A working knowledge of the scientific method. I saw a student proclaim "I will now diagnose the hips!" and then procede to do some pulling, pushing, and grumbling about "oh yeah this is all messed up....", she then proclaimed "I am now going to treat the hips!" followed by the same pulling and pushing. She then proclaimed "I have now treated the hips! You are all set!" Seriously? So we are diagnosing and treating things with no tangible evidence of existence, no complaints, and then claiming efficacy on the fact that the patient leaves in the same condition in which they came? Sure, it isnt the best of examples, but it was enough to tell me that I didnt want to be a part of that organization. I have a hard time biting my tongue (hard to believe for you guys, I know.... 😛)

but honestly, stop taking it so personally. I still reject the notion that all applicants must know exactly what is entailed in its entirety beforehand and that not doing so is somehow irresponsible. I am a little shocked that you went through interviews and are not aware of how little most people (likely including yourself) understood about the field in general - and you are going to pick OMM as the 1 thing that must be mastered as a pre-req for interview? 🙄
The clinical research is really very poor and very often draws conclusions as inappropriate extensions of findings which are often very often just artifacts of the test design. There are a few uses, but when the AOA is still trying to publish uses for cranial I think it is about time to pull the plug on the old codgers and replace the powers that be

 

[Ost3oclast]

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/153502-1/Oh_lawd.jpg

 

[SpecterGT260]

This. It's what separates us from the quacks.

However, there is no harm done if you simply go through DO training and then never use OMM in practice. Just treat OMM lab as a nice way to get more comfortable with performing physical exams.

But I agree with johnnydramma that is is indeed extremely annoying to come on this forum and hear emotional anecdote after anecdote about the wonderful albeit unexpected effects of OMM or, much worse, a remark along the lines of "oh but you can't test OMM with controlsand placebo studies... it doesn't work like that"

I disagree a little....

1) there is harm done when resources spent and advancement is slowed because of a nearly religious adherence to specific practices.

2) the same near religious adherence to the practices result in the entire mess being thrown into the bin when there are very likely a few very effective and useful practices within. Guilt by association - you label the whole thing as OMM, the effective pain treatments with the cranial hogwash for your ball cancer (or whatever they use it for....); the critical thinking practitioners who use it to alleviate discomfort in a patient along with the quacks who claim to be able to palpate a fingernail through a phonebook; and the valid DO scientists who publish meaningful work along with the nutjobs who set out on a personal vendetta and use sham science to prove that some quack therapy actually works - as someone who was very nearly a DO student, these comparisons and sharing a banner with them would have pissed me off immensely.

The MD community works very hard to abandon practices which are not shown to be effective. I mean, come now..... if we didn't we probably would not have let hysteria treatments circa 1930s go by the wayside 😉 I do see the stubborn reluctance to let certain practices go as a serious downside.

 

[SLC]

your anecdote about nasal congestion is also what is wrong with the practice.... where is your negative control?

You added this later so I'll respond now.

I have no negative control. And I don't think I ever made mention of this being scientific in nature. Just that I helped my wife with some OMM techniques that I had previously written off as bunk. Read again, did I claim that I did anything but help with symptoms? NO. Did I even propose a mechanism by which the OMM provided symptom relief? Come off it, it was an anecdote; not a statement meant to be held up as validation of OMM on a grand scale. You really missed the boat there.

Furthermore.... No. I am not threatened by you. It is comments like those that make this an issue to begin with. "we are MDs PLUS!" and "oh they are just jelly of our OMM" or the more colloquial "bitches don't know 'bout mah OMM!" that make these topics such pissing matches. You perceive "little brotherism" but if you look over these threads, it is the unprovoked backlash against "little brotherism" that brings this up to begin with. A sort of.... projection or self-fulfilling prophecy if you will 😉

Try again, nobody (certainly not me) has said that we are MD's plus here. Nobody has called you out for being jealous of OMM, or anything else. I just think that your nearly constant presence on these types of threads betrays a little insecurity about DO's.

Let me put it this way: I'm a huge college football fan. And my team (and alma-mater) has a fierce rivalry with another local school. We're a good team, and we've had a more impressive recent history in football than our rival. But I still spend a lot of time following their sports talk message board. Why do I do that? It's because I'm threatened by them. Sure we've beaten them 4 out of the last 5 years, but they've been top 25 more than we have over the past 10 years. Sure we've gone undefeated twice in the past decade while they haven't done it in over 25 years. But anytime they make a 3 or 4 game undefeated run to start the season they are catapulted to the top 10, while we usually have required an entire season to do the same thing.

So it's not that I'm jealous of them, I'll be a fan of my team till the day I die. I despise the rival (in a sports fan type of way) actually. But that doesn't mean I'm not threatened anytime they steal a recruit we were after, or whenever they win a big game.

I really would like a clear explanation why an already accepted MD student, and an (apparent) Allopathic Radiology intern, have a near constant presence on MD vs. DO threads in the pre-DO forum. I'd think you both would have bigger fish to fry, like you know, securing a Rad-Onc or Dermatology future, or taking care of patients on the wards.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You added this later so I'll respond now.

I have no negative control. And I don't think I ever made mention of this being scientific in nature. Just that I helped my wife with some OMM techniques that I had previously written off as bunk. Read again, did I claim that I did anything but help with symptoms? NO. Did I even propose a mechanism by which the OMM provided symptom relief? Come off it, it was an anecdote; not a statement meant to be held up as validation of OMM on a grand scale. You really missed the boat there.



Try again, nobody (certainly not me) has said that we are MD's plus here. Nobody has called you out for being jealous of OMM, or anything else. I just think that your nearly constant presence on these types of threads betrays a little insecurity about DO's.

Let me put it this way: I'm a huge college football fan. And my team (and alma-mater) has a fierce rivalry with another local school. We're a good team, and we've had a more impressive recent history in football than our rival. But I still spend a lot of time following their sports talk message board. Why do I do that? It's because I'm threatened by them. Sure we've beaten them 4 out of the last 5 years, but they've been top 25 more than we have over the past 10 years. Sure we've gone undefeated twice in the past decade while they haven't done it in over 25 years. But anytime they make a 3 or 4 game undefeated run to start the season they are catapulted to the top 10, while we usually have required an entire season to do the same thing.

So it's not that I'm jealous of them, I'll be a fan of my team till the day I die. I despise the rival (in a sports fan type of way) actually. But that doesn't mean I'm not threatened anytime they steal a recruit we were after, or whenever they win a big game.

I really would like a clear explanation why an already accepted MD student, and an (apparent) Allopathic Radiology intern, have a near constant presence on MD vs. DO threads in the pre-DO forum. I'd think you both would have bigger fish to fry, like you know, securing a Rad-Onc or Dermatology future, or you know taking care of patients on the wards.

why on earth would you use such an anecdote in a discussion such as this? You basically open yourself up to every criticism that has been laid.


And I didnt say that YOU said we were jelly, or MD+ or anything else. I said it was common and I likened your comment of "are you threatened" to those such comments. The difference is subtle, but it is there enough to make your "I didnt say that" pretty much irrelevant

 

[HalfListic]

I will easily accept not aligning with tradition for traditions sake. But are you aware that acceptance of much of OMM is exactly "aligning with tradition for traditions sake"

Don't be a medical hipster 😉 being a part of the counter-culture doesnt necessarily make one the free thinker. And every so often, the majority is actually right about something 👍

You are right! And I don't disagree with this nor with JohnnyD's comment about OMM as a possible tradition.

I've said many times before that the jury is still out for me on it. But, it's tough to turn my back on all the good experiences that have been observed with it.

But again, DOs don't need to, and don't, rest their future on OMM itself...

 

[deleted103644]

The thing is, you have no real evidence that those specific techniques provided even symptomatic relief (as opposed to random facial massage).

So your anecdote really proves nothing except your unfamiliarity with the rationale behind the scientific method.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The thing is, you have no real evidence that those specific techniques provided even symptomatic relief (as opposed to random facial massage).

So your anecdote really proves nothing except your unfamiliarity with the rationale behind the scientific method.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Hemorrage]

Ohh lookie here SpecterGT260 (Sphincter260) is involved in another public forum argument in which he thinks hes completely right and tries to make himself look innocent by using 3 or 4 times in a post.

Better concatenate Catdoucheus into doucheus

 

[HM3]

So your anecdote really proves nothing except your unfamiliarity with the rationale behind the scientific method.

And your posts are proving something?

 

[HM3]

Ohh lookie here SpecterGT260 (Sphincter260) is involved in another public forum argument in which he thinks hes completely right and tries to make himself look innocent by using 3 or 4 times in a post.

Better concatenate Catdoucheus into doucheus

That's offensive to Vaginal products everywhere.

 

[DrWily]

I just ate a whole macho beef burrito while trying to catch up with this thread and now I am disappoint. Used up all my free time.

Back to Biochem...

 

[SpecterGT260]

Ohh lookie here SpecterGT260 (Sphincter260) is involved in another public forum argument in which he thinks hes completely right and tries to make himself look innocent by using 3 or 4 times in a post.

Better concatenate Catdoucheus into doucheus

That's offensive to Vaginal products everywhere.

careful, we are close to starting up a butthurt fan club here guys 😉 er....

 

[SpecterGT260]

And your posts are proving something?

I seriously love your go-to argument of using nothing to disprove nothing. it's almost elegant in its irony

 

[HalfListic]

The thing is, you have no real evidence that those specific techniques provided even symptomatic relief (as opposed to random facial massage).

So your anecdote really proves nothing except your unfamiliarity with the rationale behind the scientific method.

You have to agree that there is evidence. There are even a few studies (with some flaws, yes, we've discussed them before).


But faster recovery times, lowered pharmaceutical need, lower perceived pain...etc. These are all shown to be the case.

Again, Im not going to debate anything except that OMM needs/deserves more studies. If they come up short, I have no problem to abandon it, or anything else. But, show me...show me how they have failed testing and become this bane on medicine.

I, for one, am not ready to shut something out that has so much promise. I'm beginning to think that you may be fighting a subconscious love of OMM, because you come across the same way homophobics do in argument.

Are you...*gasp* OMM-phobic?? 😱


😉

 

[HalfListic]

I just ate a whole macho beef burrito while trying to catch up with this thread and now I am disappoint. Used up all my free time.

Back to Biochem...

Where are your priorities? I mean, you are a medical student! You should know better...you should know that this thread has much more to offer than the likes of any biochem non-sense 😉


Ps, you made me hungry

 

[MedPR]

I really would like to go to SDN's medical school. Never a dull moment.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You have to agree that there is evidence. There are even a few studies (with some flaws, yes, we've discussed them before).


But faster recovery times, lowered pharmaceutical need, lower perceived pain...etc. These are all shown to be the case.

Again, Im not going to debate anything except that OMM needs/deserves more studies. If they come up short, I have no problem to abandon it, or anything else. But, show me...show me how they have failed testing and become this bane on medicine.

I, for one, am not ready to shut something out that has so much promise. I'm beginning to think that you may be fighting a subconscious love of OMM, because you come across the same way homophobics do in argument.

Are you...*gasp* OMM-phobic?? 😱


😉

nearly nothing is done to separate this from placebo. In the biggest studies Ive seen, even after blinding and randomization the patients can nearly all accurately identify the treatment group they were in. Might as well not even label it as blinded IMO (for Hemi 😉) Also, OMM has precisely zilch in the way of transnational research. There are no basic science principles that support any of it. I'd like to see them take it out of the clinic and get some real tangible mechanisms to support some of the claims - build a therapy out of testable knowledge instead of this shot-gun approach based on unsubstantiated tenets.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I really would like to go to SDN's medical school. Never a dull moment.

If you had to choose between SDN medical school and podiatry...which one would you choose? Go!

 

[DrWily]

If you had to choose between SDN medical school and podiatry...which one would you choose? Go!

Is suicide an option?





yes, suicide is always an option.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Is suicide an option?





yes, suicide is always an option.

Well in that case....I'll rent the gun and you buy two bullets.

 

[HalfListic]

nearly nothing is done to separate this from placebo. In the biggest studies Ive seen, even after blinding and randomization the patients can nearly all accurately identify the treatment group they were in. Might as well not even label it as blinded IMO (for Hemi 😉) Also, OMM has precisely zilch in the way of transnational research. There are no basic science principles that support any of it. I'd like to see them take it out of the clinic and get some real tangible mechanisms to support some of the claims - build a therapy out of testable knowledge instead of this shot-gun approach based on unsubstantiated tenets.

Agreed...and Ive stated similar sentiments previously. This is well put. 👍

 

[SpecterGT260]

podiatry...which one would you choose? Go!

Is suicide an option?





yes, suicide is always an option.

How are these different? 😕

 

[wjs010]

Except the licensing requirements are not as strict as the LCME and you are force fed pseudoscientific BS.

Considering the people behind worse schools in the Caribbean than SGU are now opening DO schools, the SDN consensus that the worst DO program is better than the best international program really doesn't hold water.

Dude, I totally understand that. I think what you are saying only applies to those who fully pursue DO residencies and fellowships. But, for the guy who is a realist and understands that I would take me years to reach the gpa to get into an MD school, DO is a great alternative. My point is that , for the most part, the four years of medical school is the same. Yes, DO students have to do omm practice for like 200 hours, but I don't see where that could hurt. It may be anecdotal , but it won't cause harm to a patient. Besides, only a small percent even use that in real practice.

Don't get me wrong, I would rather obtain an MD to avoid possible future scrutiny from anyone. , but at the end of the workday, I still helped patients, still made the same amount of money, and still would have gone though an acgme residency , as a DO. If one pursues that path as a DO, they are literally in every way the same as an MD. This just makes sense to me. Inb4 pre med. lol. So what

 

[HockeyDr09]

Just a note on new COCA accreditation standards. Hopefully it won't go ignored (as actual evidence usually does in these threads)

8.3 (NEW) The COM must develop a GME
adequacy model appropriate to the COM's
mission and objectives. The method used to
calculate the model must be fully described and
documented. The model must demonstrate the
number of graduates entering GME, the positions
available in the school's affiliated OPTI, the
historic percentage of NRMP vs. AOA match
participation, final placement, the
number/percentage of students unsuccessful in
the matches, and the residency choices of its
graduates.

8.3.1 (NEW) Schools must place at least 98% of
students who are eligible and wish to enter GME
in GME positions and account for graduates who
did not enter GME on a yearly basis and track
their future status

8.5 (NEW)
The COM must annually report, from the
previous four academic years, the following data
on its website, in its catalog, and in all COM
promotional publications printed for the purpose
of soliciting students :
a) The number of students from each
graduating class who either obtained or
were offered placement in a graduate
medical education program accredited by
the American Osteopathic Association or
the Accreditation Council for Graduate
Medical Education and the number of
students from each graduating class who
were unable to obtain placement in an
accredited graduate medical program.
b) The pass rate of its graduates for either
the COMLEX-USA Level 3 or other final
stage licensure exam.
c) The percentage of graduates from each
class who have obtained licenses to
practice medicine in the United States.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditation/predoctoral%20accreditation/Documents/Proposed-Revisions-to-Standards-Jan-2012-%20with-Cvr-Memo.pdf

 

[scotchtapetest]

It varies from site to site, much like I'm sure it does for DO students.

As if all MD sites are the same... Let's not BS each other!

In NYC, SGU definitely has better rotation sites than the ones I've seen listed for NYCOM, they're even displacing NYMC sites I believe.

And on top of their formal didactics, some are pimped mercilessly by their interns...

Yes their "formal didactics" which only exists (if it exists at all at some sites) if there is another US school around that they could piggyback on and the "pimping" by the intern because we (especially you and I) know how effective of a teacher an intern is 👎 Thanks for proving my point!

Again it's not about the site it's about education. If you want to go down that route there is at least one of these top 20 schools in your favorite city that send its kids out to some really s**** sites in NJ. However, I have a feeling that they still get a pretty good education because there is adequate supervision even though the hospital sucks.

A third year medical student doesn't need to see any complex cases; in fact, what they need is bread and butter cases but with constant supervision, direction, feedback and didactics. 😉

If we are going to go down this road - AACOMAS has grade replacement which inflates GPA relative to AMCAS. However the avg GPA for DO schools is still lower even after this inflation.

Also, jonathan's major issue with DOs is that everyone pretends like OMM is a real thing to appease some dusty old men who still play with tarot cards or something to be honest, I was granted admission to a DO school well before the MD school accepted me. I told them no thank you and that I would be applying to PhD programs - such was my level of distaste for OMM. Many people can get past it, some people believe it - but I wasnt going to be either one of those so I figured Id forgo 4 years of frustration and do research which I also love doing. Luckily 3 months later I was accepted by an MD program. I am not saying everyone needs to be like me, but rather that the argument that "well we dont all really buy into it anyways" isnt really a valid counterpoint for some of us. In fact, that is the problem itself.

1) AACOMAS does have grade replacement but what is and is not considered "science" is not the same as AMCAS. So, for instance in my case, my AACOMAS sGPA was lower than my AMCAS sGPA. So it doesn't always work in your favor!

2) One problem with internists (or in my case future internist) is that we have a very good long term memory and I distinctly remember you posting in the past about how you were about to go to that DO school but then you got your MD acceptance, blah blah blah... So at best you are being misleading about your past intentions 😱

This part is true.... i always wondered why MD students have the 7 year rule with attempt caps on USMLE but there are no restrictions for the majority of states for COMLEX in terms of # of attempts or time frame for total completion.

This isnt the most tactful way to say this but.... I mean, you guys gotta understand how it smacks a little bit when the DO schools have lower admissions standards - enough so that the median DO matriculant would not be accepted into most MD schools and they also don't have the restriction gate at the tail end in terms of getting licensed. That is annoying

Specter, buddy, you were doing so good for few months... what happened to you?

The attempt rule is set by each state NOT by the NBME so it has nothing to do with LCME/NBME. Each STATE has their own laws. If you don't like it, write your congressperson. The biggest reason this rule even exists, is mostly because of FMGs; There are no DO FMGs so we don't have to worry about it. Also as mentioned earlier, NBOME is now imposing a limit on number of attempts which would BY YOUR DEFINITION make it stricter than NBME (Although I don't think the limit makes any difference either way).

this is a step in the right direction 👍 SpecterGT260 approves (you can tell them that at the next meeting. They will care. I'm sure of it 😳) But seriously, the entire controversy will go away when overt "bar lowering" (or heightening? I always felt like this was a limbo metaphor...) goes away all together.

Nobody is saying that DOs arent quality physicians. However they do not have the strict quality control processes that MDs do (if you accept an analogy to industry QC practices).

Again, there are lot of great MD programs that exceed the quality of all DO schools. Nobody is debating that. But let's be real; there are also more than a few (let's say subpar) MD programs and I know at least my alma mater provided me with a higher quality education than those schools. So this whole QC BS doesn't fly across the board and it is very school dependent not LCME dependent. Your argument may have been true 20-30 years ago but with the class expansions and students being shipped all across the state for rotations, it is no longer true.

No, you don't get it yet HalfLing. Look again. I knew they had OMM. It is true that I didnt realize at the time that I would dislike OMM to that degree, but this is also the way this school treated it. They might as well have been the Palmer School of Osteopathic Medicine. But the OMM was only the icing on the cake for the reasons I disliked the school. So maybe if that was your angle I can see a little further validity in your analogy.

In truth, the DO schools were backups. Research was the backup after that, but MD was the goal. After applying and then interviewing DO, I decided it wasnt for me because I wouldnt be able to stomach that "icing". Again, not saying anyone who can stomach it is somehow inferior. Just saying that the ability to eat crap isnt necessarily a skill I would tout on a first date and as such it probably doesnt belong on a CV either 😉 But that is opinion, you do whatever you wish with what you learn.


But I digress.... the point is I knew what the schools offered, or at least what their pamphlets said. I knew a little about OMM at the time. I didnt apply blindly. Also, me not liking OMM has nothign to do at all with the quality of the training. That was another discussion between johnny and someone else. The only point I was making there was in response to wjs and why I don't accept the "well we dont really believe OMM anyways" as a valid defense of the position. Remember, I said in that post "this isnt a valid defense, it is in fact the problem". It is the logical discrepancy between being a science and evidence based profession while pretending to adhere to bogus notions (not all, but some) in order to appease the hierarchy. That is logically indefensible in my opinion.


Remember halfsey, 99% of all incoming M1s have no idea what any particular specialty actually entails. So this line of questioning you are pursuing is actually a double edged sword

Nobody is here to convince you or Johnny of pros and cons of OMM. You and everyone else are entitled to your opinions. As someone who has OMM training, I will tell you that it is a great tool for treatment of MSK problems (especially chronic MSK pain).

When you see a patient come back every other week b/c OMM helps their chronic LBP and allows them to be a functional member of the society when it has close to ZERO side effect, somehow what Johnny, you or anyone else says/thinks means very little to me.

I don't know that their accreditation standards for schools are more lax... (i dont know either way) but if you are referring to MCAT and GPA averages, the "standards" are actually much lower than average for LCME schools. The supply and demand alone could explain why MDs have higher scores if this is what you meant. Why are AOA (or whatever they use....) schools unlikely to meet LCME requirements?

Again, there are LCME schools in this country which have lower GPA/MCAT averages than my and multiple other DO schools; I've personally posted them at least twice in the past year. So it is absolutely false to state that somehow the "LCME Standard" (which would then encompass all LCME schools) is higher than DO schools.

Separate board tests (with AOA published data that equates a median COMLEX score to be below passing score for USMLE, although the validity of this is widely debated - I do however find it ironic that the DO community is bashing an AOA publication)
separate and exclusionary residency match program (AOA)
lower requirements for licensing in terms of retakes and time to pass (although this was recently rectified per an earlier post, to take effect in 2016)

That study was done at ONE school comparing some ridiculously small number of students at that ONE school. Had I quoted an OMM study with same designs you would've been all over my case!

Licensing requirements are set by the state (see above) and if you still have problems, I strongly encourage you to write your congressperson!

2) the same near religious adherence to the practices result in the entire mess being thrown into the bin when there are very likely a few very effective and useful practices within. Guilt by association - you label the whole thing as OMM, the effective pain treatments with the cranial hogwash for your ball cancer (or whatever they use it for....);

I agree with above!

 

[SpecterGT260]

As if all MD sites are the same... Let's not BS each other!



Yes their "formal didactics" which only exists (if it exists at all at some sites) if there is another US school around that they could piggyback on and the "pimping" by the intern because we (especially you and I) know how effective of a teacher an intern is 👎 Thanks for proving my point!

Again it's not about the site it's about education. If you want to go down that route there is at least one of these top 20 schools in your favorite city that send its kids out to some really s**** sites in NJ. However, I have a feeling that they still get a pretty good education because there is adequate supervision even though the hospital sucks.

A third year medical student doesn't need to see any complex cases; in fact, what they need is bread and butter cases but with constant supervision, direction, feedback and didactics. 😉



1) AACOMAS does have grade replacement but what is and is not considered "science" is not the same as AMCAS. So, for instance in my case, my AACOMAS sGPA was lower than my AMCAS sGPA. So it doesn't always work in your favor!

2) One problem with internists (or in my case future internist) is that we have a very good long term memory and I distinctly remember you posting in the past about how you were about to go to that DO school but then you got your MD acceptance, blah blah blah... So at best you are being misleading about your past intentions 😱



Specter, buddy, you were doing so good for few months... what happened to you?

The attempt rule is set by each state NOT by the NBME so it has nothing to do with LCME/NBME. Each STATE has their own laws. If you don't like it, write your congressperson. The biggest reason this rule even exists, is mostly because of FMGs; There are no DO FMGs so we don't have to worry about it. Also as mentioned earlier, NBOME is now imposing a limit on number of attempts which would BY YOUR DEFINITION make it stricter than NBME (Although I don't think the limit makes any difference either way).



Again, there are lot of great MD programs that exceed the quality of all DO schools. Nobody is debating that. But let's be real; there are also more than a few (let's say subpar) MD programs and I know at least my alma mater provided me with a higher quality education than those schools. So this whole QC BS doesn't fly across the board and it is very school dependent not LCME dependent. Your argument may have been true 20-30 years ago but with the class expansions and students being shipped all across the state for rotations, it is no longer true.



Nobody is here to convince you or Johnny of pros and cons of OMM. You and everyone else are entitled to your opinions. As someone who has OMM training, I will tell you that it is a great tool for treatment of MSK problems (especially chronic MSK pain). It is also a great tool for functional anatomy knowledge. I know my landmarks much better than my MD colleagues b/c it was drilled into me every week.

When you see a patient come back every other week b/c OMM helps their chronic LBP and allows them to be a functional member of the society when it has close to ZERO side effect, somehow what Johnny, you or anyone else says/thinks means very little to me.



Again, there are LCME schools in this country which have lower GPA/MCAT averages than my and multiple other DO schools; I've personally posted them at least twice in the past year. So it is absolutely false to state that somehow the "LCME Standard" (which would then encompass all LCME schools) is higher than DO schools.



That study was done at ONE school comparing some ridiculously small number of students at that ONE school. Had I quoted an OMM study with same designs you would've been all over my case!

Licensing requirements are set by the state (see above) and if you still have problems, I strongly encourage you to write your congressperson!



I agree with above!

This is too much for my phone lol. I think you mistook a couple of my posts. Although it was my understanding that aacomas will replace retaken courses

 

[HalfListic]

This is too much for my phone lol. I think you mistook a couple of my posts. Although it was my understanding that aacomas will replace retaken courses

He was right and wrong.AACOMAS does have a limited grade replacement program in place, but it also doesnt count math in the sGPA.

But, a lot of his other points were good

 

[Ost3oclast]

How are these different? 😕

Hahahaha i like this....