Why I chose HPSP (because we've seen enough anti HPSP posts)

[403606]

The purpose of this statement is two-fold. Mainly, I want it to serve as a reminder for me; something I can think about five to ten years from now and remember my reasons for entering the military as an aspiring physician. I write this with the “innocence of a child”, or with a perspective that is deeply rooted in a desire to serve our nation; one that is mostly unbiased. Alternatively, I hope this will motivate other medical students in the same anxious albeit eager stage in their blossoming medical career. Perhaps this positive motivation will be my first productive act as a medical officer in the United States Armed Forces.

My decision to pursue military medicine via HPSP was hardly one made after weighing the pros and cons listed in any literature or listening to military physicians who have gone before me. I made this decision after I decided to merge two significant goals in my life: service in the military and becoming a doctor, the former being a goal I established for myself at an early age. After reading that any decision to become a military doctor must be made knowing that you are a soldier first and a physician second, I knew I found my calling.

I do not claim to know exactly what my career will entail nor do I expect it to one without substantial obstacles along the way. I do not have an exit plan and my only expectations are that I will be a physician in some capacity and that I will have the opportunity to care for the men and women of our armed services and their families. I understand that the goals and desires I develop during my medical career may be secondary to the needs of the country. However, I hope that no matter where my career goes, my commitment to our country will always be at the forefront of my mind. I am also confident that although my situation may be less than ideal at times, ensuring the health and well-being of my family is a part of the reciprocal agreement I will be making with our government.

If it is my duty to deploy, I will do so without reservation and I will serve this time proudly and responsibly. I look forward to a career as an officer where I am in the position to motivate other soldiers to serve proudly and earn their respect as a leader. I am eager to provide the high caliber level of care they deserve in an effort to maintain the high efficiency operational capacity that is the standard for the United States Armed Forces.

In four years when I finally earn my position as an officer/physician in the United States Navy, I can only hope that I remember the feeling in my heart as I write this now. I willingly sacrificed the freedoms of a civilian career to pursue a passion that is beyond words. I pursued a career as a physician to care for others with the greatest professional knowledge that one can obtain. I have chosen to serve in the U.S. Navy so I can bring my passion for medicine to our military and carry out my duties as an officer and a physician with all that I have to give.

In closing, if you are deciding whether to pursue military medicine, you need to dig deep down. The decision needs to be yours and yours alone. Use the information on here constructively, but not exclusively (whether you are reading posts supporting (including this) or against military medicine Be prepared for sacrifice, but if you are doing it for the right reasons then your self worth will far surpass anything tangible this world can offer. Military medicine is not about money and it is not about status. It is about raw commitment to a purpose and to a common mission. You are a soldier and a doctor and should expect to serve dual roles. With this comes sacrifices your civilian counterparts will not know. As I have done for years, you can spend hours reading the pros and cons on this site but at the end of the day it is all about a bottom line you have set for yourself.

Thank you to those who serve/have served. If you are current military, maybe we will cross paths some day; I look forward to it.

---

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[244913]

This will make good drinking-alone reading when you're cooling your heels in GMO land in about 5 years.

In my experience, the people who end up most embittered about .MilMed are the idealists. Their illusions are quickly shattered against the breakers of RVU's, DHMRsi, Respect-Mil and Nurse Commanders with BMI's of 35. You become frustrated b/c MiMed has the potential for greatness, but is hamstrung by poor leadership, stultifying bureaucracy and antiquated practices like relying on GMO's.

Also, while it sounds sexy and romantic to say that you're "An Officer first" when you have just started med school and haven't laid anything on the line, these are the kind of Physicians you will grow to despise when you get into your payback. It will take you upwards of 9 years to complete your training and become a licensed Physician. It takes 5 seconds to sign the document commissioning you as an Ensign. Ask yourself now which is more important.

Good luck with that child-like innocence. You're going to need it.

-61N

The purpose of this statement is two-fold. Mainly, I want it to serve as a reminder for me; something I can think about five to ten years from now and remember my reasons for entering the military as an aspiring physician. I write this with the “innocence of a child”, or with a perspective that is deeply rooted in a desire to serve our nation; one that is mostly unbiased. Alternatively, I hope this will motivate other medical students in the same anxious albeit eager stage in their blossoming medical career. Perhaps this positive motivation will be my first productive act as a medical officer in the United States Armed Forces.

My decision to pursue military medicine via HPSP was hardly one made after weighing the pros and cons listed in any literature or listening to military physicians who have gone before me. I made this decision after I decided to merge two significant goals in my life: service in the military and becoming a doctor, the former being a goal I established for myself at an early age. After reading that any decision to become a military doctor must be made knowing that you are a soldier first and a physician second, I knew I found my calling.

I do not claim to know exactly what my career will entail nor do I expect it to one without substantial obstacles along the way. I do not have an exit plan and my only expectations are that I will be a physician in some capacity and that I will have the opportunity to care for the men and women of our armed services and their families. I understand that the goals and desires I develop during my medical career may be secondary to the needs of the country. However, I hope that no matter where my career goes, my commitment to our country will always be at the forefront of my mind. I am also confident that although my situation may be less than ideal at times, ensuring the health and well-being of my family is a part of the reciprocal agreement I will be making with our government.

If it is my duty to deploy, I will do so without reservation and I will serve this time proudly and responsibly. I look forward to a career as an officer where I am in the position to motivate other soldiers to serve proudly and earn their respect as a leader. I am eager to provide the high caliber level of care they deserve in an effort to maintain the high efficiency operational capacity that is the standard for the United States Armed Forces.

In four years when I finally earn my position as an officer/physician in the United States Navy, I can only hope that I remember the feeling in my heart as I write this now. I willingly sacrificed the freedoms of a civilian career to pursue a passion that is beyond words. I pursued a career as a physician to care for others with the greatest professional knowledge that one can obtain. I have chosen to serve in the U.S. Navy so I can bring my passion for medicine to our military and carry out my duties as an officer and a physician with all that I have to give.

In closing, if you are deciding whether to pursue military medicine, you need to dig deep down. The decision needs to be yours and yours alone. Use the information on here constructively, but not exclusively (whether you are reading posts supporting (including this) or against military medicine Be prepared for sacrifice, but if you are doing it for the right reasons then your self worth will far surpass anything tangible this world can offer. Military medicine is not about money and it is not about status. It is about raw commitment to a purpose and to a common mission. You are a soldier and a doctor and should expect to serve dual roles. With this comes sacrifices your civilian counterparts will not know. As I have done for years, you can spend hours reading the pros and cons on this site but at the end of the day it is all about a bottom line you have set for yourself.

Thank you to those who serve/have served. If you are current military, maybe we will cross paths some day; I look forward to it.

 

[Long Way to Go]

If you could make a note in your calendar to post here after every major milestone (after medical school, internship, residency, and once your contract is up), that would be very interesting to read.

 

[403606]

For me, my commissioning was/is more important than my med school acceptance.

61N, you may have chosen military medicine for different reasons than me, maybe you had the same reasons--I don't know. Either way, thank you for your response but I am not sure why you felt you needed to respond with yet another negative HPSP response on a post that was meant for another purpose.

I am sorry you have had a frustrating career in the military.

My post isn't directed to you or people like you. Hopefully there are some out there who can identify with what I wrote.

 

[Perrotfish]

After reading that any decision to become a military doctor must be made knowing that you are a soldier first and a physician second, I knew I found my calling.

...

If it is my duty to deploy, I will do so without reservation and I will serve this time proudly and responsibly. I look forward to a career as an officer where I am in the position to motivate other soldiers

...

.

If your goal is to convince everyone that you knew what you were doing when you joined the Navy refering to yourself as a 'soldier' is not the best way to go about it.

 

[med145]

I was confused when I started reading the first post. A positive post?
NavyWahoo, unfortunately I am not Navy because I would love to work with you. Yes, at the end of the day, a job is a job, and sometimes it will suck/be frustrating/etc. But you have a great attitude.
I agree with the point of your post. Everyone needs to make their own choice to join MilMed, and the military part needs to be a huge part of it. Please don't join if you are not willing to put up with that. You will pay off your loans.
Let the negative replies begin...AAAAAAND...GO.

 

[403606]

It's unfortunate that genuine reasons for joining are met with such negativity. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. My intentions were already stated.

 

[pgg]

Your dedication is admirable and I have nothing negative to say. One comment though -

For me, my commissioning was/is more important than my med school acceptance.

There's room to be proud of both, and there's room to be both a good officer and a good physician, but there will be conflict. I hope in time you let the pendulum swing over to the physician side, because the day will come when you have to choose between being the "good officer" your superiors (both medical corps and line) think you should be and what you must be as a good physician.


When you're an officer and a physician, and that Marine Lance Corporal is in your office to see you about something, which of the two do you think he's hoping you take more seriously?

There's no shortage of 2nd Lieutenants and 1st Sergeants and Gunnery Sergeants and Staff Sergeants and Sergeants and Corporals to tell him what to do and how to do it and how to square his **** away. On the medical side, it's just you.


So wear the uniform properly, and salute when you're supposed to, and pass the fitness testing, and understand that we exist to support the line, and be proud to serve, but you are a doctor first and all that "officer first" bull**** needs to get shoved aside the instant it gets in the way of doing the right thing for the patient.


And welcome to the Navy. 🙂

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

When you're an officer and a physician, and that Marine Lance Corporal is in your office to see you about something, which of the two do you think he's hoping you take more seriously?

This is the most important idea that the OP needs to consider.

 

[notdeadyet]

If your goal is to convince everyone that you knew what you were doing when you joined the Navy refering to yourself as a 'soldier' is not the best way to go about it.

Yeah, this kind of jumped out at me as well...

 

[AF M4]

To the OP:

I could have written that essay myself almost a decade ago, and I think I actually did write something similar for my HPSP application essay. (Man, when did I get so old?)

I did recognize some long-forgotten idealism in your words. I will tell you that people accumulate a lot of things in the military. Ribbons, plaques, medals, decorations, etc.: all things that in various ways speak of how one answered the call and so forth during his or her career and which get presented to you in awkward ceremonies by your commanders. I know; I've got a big pile of them in a box at the bottom of my closet collecting dust next to my old uniforms and flight suits. That's how important all that idealistic stuff I wrote about in my essay ended up being.

The only things I kept are some framed photos with me and my friends and colleagues and a couple of inside joke going away gifts from them and the squadrons I helped. I stopped caring about idealism a long time ago; I ended up only wanting to help my buddies and be a good doctor for their families.

I did that, served my time and got out. 61November speaks the truth. It would have been impossible for the version of myself from 10 years ago to know that; I suppose that certain things can only come with experience and I do remember how determined I was back then to experience serving my country. Good luck.

 

[244913]

I think I've become the re-incarnation of BomberDoc on these boards, as most of my posts seem excessively bitter.

To the OP:

I recognized a lot of myself in your post, 8 years ago when I first signed on the dotted line. I was idealistic too, and naive, although I never had the hubris to post a soliloquy on SDN telling combat veterans and Attendings how to feel about .MilMed.

Get this **** about being an Officer first out of your head. You are a Doctor first and foremost, and if you want to impress your Command the best way to do that is by being the best Physician you can be for your guys and their families. Officership- meetings, admin, training- this crap means nothing to me. I have been a Flight Surgeon for a line unit for 3 yrs. My boss is my XO, my commander is a pilot, I have no contact with Nurse/Murse stupidvisors and rarely even go to the Hospital. I am a good Officer b/c I am a good Physician- and if you can't understand this then you have a long road ahead of you. BTW I have my share of combat decorations and awards but the thing that gives me the most pleasure is taking good care of one of my pilots or crewdogs.

The Doctors who are "Officers first" are without a doubt the biggest ****bags in existence. These are the RAM's who see 6 patients a month and foist everything off on the GMO Flight Docs, the guys who take every opportunity to go TDY and leave their colleagues holding the bag, the guys who punch out @ 1400 every day and never go down to the Flightline.

If you want to be a good "Officer" focus on being a good Doctor. Do well in whatever DO degree mill let you in and then excel in your Internship. When you are out with the Line go the extra mile for your guys- arrive early and stay late. At then end of the day nobody gives a **** about the badges on your chest (unless they're combat related) they only care about how well you take care of them as patients.

Out

-61N

 

[haujun]

After reading that any decision to become a military doctor must be made knowing that you are a soldier first and a physician second, I knew I found my calling.

You are a soldier and a doctor and should expect to serve dual roles. With this comes sacrifices your civilian counterparts will not know. As I have done for years, you can spend hours reading the pros and cons on this site but at the end of the day it is all about a bottom line you have set for yourself.

Thank you to those who served/have served. If you are current military, maybe we will cross paths some day; I look forward to it.

Are you a prior service member? Do you know the responsibilities of becoming a soldier? If you truely know what it takes to be a good soldier you will know why it can be challenging to do both. After you complete OBC post your thoughts here.

 

[haujun]

IGet this **** about being an Officer first out of your head. You are a Doctor first and foremost, and if you want to impress your Command the best way to do that is by being the best Physician you can be for your guys and their families. Officership- meetings, admin, training- this crap means nothing to me. I have been a Flight Surgeon for a line unit for 3 yrs. My boss is my XO, my commander is a pilot, I have no contact with Nurse/Murse stupidvisors and rarely even go to the Hospital. I am a good Officer b/c I am a good Physician- and if you can't understand this then you have a long road ahead of you. BTW I have my share of combat decorations and awards but the thing that gives me the most pleasure is taking good care of one of my pilots or crewdogs.

The Doctors who are "Officers first" are without a doubt the biggest ****bags in existence. These are the RAM's who see 6 patients a month and foist everything off on the GMO Flight Docs, the guys who take every opportunity to go TDY and leave their colleagues holding the bag, the guys who punch out @ 1400 every day and never go down to the Flightline.

If you want to be a good "Officer" focus on being a good Doctor. Do well in whatever DO degree mill let you in and then excel in your Internship. When you are out with the Line go the extra mile for your guys- arrive early and stay late. At then end of the day nobody gives a **** about the badges on your chest (unless they're combat related) they only care about how well you take care of them as patients.

Out

-61N

My OER is written by line officers who are not doctors so they cannot really comment my clinical abilities. Thus, I spend some time out of hospital attending meetings, giving briefs and doing slides. I split my time 60% seeing patients in the clinic/hospital and 40% doing non-clinical duties which is similar to doctor/officer roles. However this does NOT mean that I am performing dual roles. I just have additional responsibilities. Bottom line is you cannot become a good MC officer without being a good doctor!

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Why I chose HPSP (because we've seen enough anti HPSP posts)

I am guessing you just joined and are not prior service. (Correct me if that is not true.) I know you are not yet a doctor, and of course have not worked as a military physician.

Pretty much all of us who have gone through the HPSP or USUHS pipeline have been where you are. The scholarship money isn't the only reason to join, or at least it would be very difficult to live with the military if that were true. I think I can speak for most and say there are also idealistic reasons that bouy your decision to join, and those are very important. You need to feel right about what you are doing.

The "officer first" line is fed out so often it is tiresome. You have duties besides those of a physician, true. You have officer rank, and an officer's uniform. But never forget the only reason you are there, and the main role your fellow officers and the enlisted expect of you is to be a doctor. You aren't there to do warfighting, or to earn recognition, but to provide professional advice to your command and to provide professional service to your patients.

The experiences and opinions of other doctors who have taken the HPSP offer and have good or bad opinions of its worth are not yours, and not yours to endorse or dispute either, at least not at this point in your professional life. You have signed, now. You are taking the deal given. Your reasons are yours to be content with. Make the best you can of it; enjoy being a student and an IRR medical corps ensign. I hope your experiences surpass your expectations.

 

[NavyFP]

The "officer first" line is fed out so often it is tiresome. You have duties besides those of a physician, true. You have officer rank, and an officer's uniform. But never forget the only reason you are there, and the main role your fellow officers and the enlisted expect of you is to be a doctor. You aren't there to do warfighting, or to earn recognition, but to provide professional advice to your command and to provide professional service to your patients.

My Colonel wants me to be a doctor. In fact, he very rarely addresses me by my rank (which I actually prefer, I worked harder for "Doctor"). I do have to follow the standard routines and protocols. My uniform should be maintained and presentable, but that is it.

If we were truly officers first, we might be in the chain of command. Considering I am senior to all the officers in the Regiment (save the Colonel) you would think I could end up sitting in the big chair. Nope, the last butter bar would have to croak for that to happen. But I'm OK with that.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

My Colonel wants me to be a doctor. In fact, he very rarely addresses me by my rank (which I actually prefer, I worked harder for "Doctor"). I do have to follow the standard routines and protocols. My uniform should be maintained and presentable, but that is it.

If we were truly officers first, we might be in the chain of command. Considering I am senior to all the officers in the Regiment (save the Colonel) you would think I could end up sitting in the big chair. Nope, the last butter bar would have to croak for that to happen. But I'm OK with that.

Me too. I had to leave the wardroom when the ASWOC briefs were done; I didn't have a high enough clearance (never mind I had responsibility for the Personnel Reliability Program--my unit had special weapons clearances.) Go figure. I thought it kind of funny, but it really didn't bug me. But there were lots of meetings with me, the skipper and the Command Master Chief whenever someone in the unit was acting out. Even the department heads were out. So access worked in funny ways.

 

[Gastrapathy]

OP tl;dr

But, based on the OP's name, the title of the thread, and the response directly above my post I'll guess what he said:

1. Officer first. I'm gonna be the door gunner on the space shuttle, just you watch. Blah blah blah...I'm better than you even though you all have actually done it and I'm a med stud who hasn't ever actually been responsible for ****.

2. You all are unpatriotic, ungrateful punks

3. I have no insight into the fact that I'm a DO who couldn't have even gotten a scholarship back when most of these posters were starting med school. I have no clue that the applicant pool quality was at a historic nadir when I applied and that I may go to a school that increases my chances of failing internship exponentially.

4. Its a darn good thing there are people like me. Milmed needs grist for the mill.

v/r,
Pollyanna #6852

 

[AF M4]

OP tl;dr

But, based on the OP's name, the title of the thread, and the response directly above my post I'll guess what he said:

1. Officer first. I'm gonna be the door gunner on the space shuttle, just you watch. Blah blah blah...I'm better than you even though you all have actually done it and I'm a med stud who hasn't ever actually been responsible for ****.

2. You all are unpatriotic, ungrateful punks

3. I have no insight into the fact that I'm a DO who couldn't have even gotten a scholarship back when most of these posters were starting med school. I have no clue that the applicant pool quality was at a historic nadir when I applied and that I may go to a school that increases my chances of failing internship exponentially.

4. Its a darn good thing there are people like me. Milmed needs grist for the mill.

v/r,
Pollyanna #6852

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53lZOZRqLEk

 

[403606]

The shots against a DO degree are cheap and unproductive. For some on here, I am embarrassed that you are actually allowed to care for anyone given your unprofessional attitudes and ignorant opinions. For the rest, I appreciate the advice and experience.

 

[Apollyon]

The shots against a DO degree are cheap and unproductive. For some on here, I am embarrassed that you are actually allowed to care for anyone given your unprofessional attitudes and ignorant opinions. For the rest, I appreciate the advice and experience.

Ding ding! (That's for an award, not the ship's bell being rung to tell time.) Burnett's Law FTW! (Ironically, the "Burnett" of that law is both a DO and an officer in the US Army.)

("Burnett's Law" - "because of your personal beliefs/bizarro politics/financial profligacy/conspiracy theories, and irrespective of your medical ability, you will be a HORRIBLE doctor!")

 

[orbitsurgMD]

The shots against a DO degree are cheap and unproductive. For some on here, I am embarrassed that you are actually allowed to care for anyone given your unprofessional attitudes and ignorant opinions. For the rest, I appreciate the advice and experience.

You would be helping yourself if you dialed that down.

This is an internet forum not a place for professional activity. I read nothing "unprofessional" in anything written above. Did you mean "un-collegial?"

Being embarrassed implies some parity in position, as if your own position were besmirched by unseemly acts of a colleague. I am not seeing any reason for your claim for embarrassment.

You have begged the issue regarding osteopathic medical degree candidates and HPSP. Unlike in the past, there are now a disproportionate number of applicants and recipients of the "scholarships" from osteopathic programs. That has been an observation made by many people in Navy leadership. The percentage of persons in HPSP in DO programs is much greater than the percentage of DO graduates in the nation; they are overrepresented in the military medical system. Why that is carries some concern, as it corresponds to falling academic qualifications standards among average HPSP candidates. Nearly a decade ago, in U.S. Medicine, the former Navy surgeon general noted that the HPSP had become relatively unattractive to students at the nation's leading university medical schools, so much so that the average HPSP applicant academic GPA and MCAT scores had declined (by that time) to the minimum standards qualifying for admission to U.S. allopathic schools. We are not talking just Harvard and Johns Hopkins, but all allopathic schools. That is a huge change from the past, and a very negative one, unfortunately. The students from DO schools have filled in the shortfall in recruiting and, whether you want to admit it or not, not with candidates that come with applications credentials the equal of those lost to the HPSP program in the past. This is further amplified by aggressive and entrepreneurial launches of several new osteopathic schools. Therein lies the real concern about whether the Navy is receiving internship accessions as able and well-prepared for residency as candidates were in years past.

 

[haujun]

Guys, lets not turn this thread into another MD vs DO. Next thing you will read that if less DOs sign up for HPSP maybe there wil be changes in military medicine etc...

I am sure he/she is one of those idealistic military medical students as we all have been in the past during our training. Now I have become a bitter, coffee drinking military physician who detests going to work reading stupid e-mail sent by nurses etc...😀

 

[pgg]

Guys, lets not turn this thread into another MD vs DO.

Agree, nothing to be gained there. There's more to the MD --> DO demographic shift than less interest and lower standards.

The extreme cost of many DO schools, compared to the many public allopathic schools and heavily-endowed private allopathic schools has to be considered too. Prospective DO students are, on average, staring down the barrel of substantially more debt than prospective MD students.

 

[PeachyPhd]

prospective do students are, on average, staring down the barrel of substantially more debt than prospective md students.

qft.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Agree, nothing to be gained there. There's more to the MD --> DO demographic shift than less interest and lower standards.

The extreme cost of many DO schools, compared to the many public allopathic schools and heavily-endowed private allopathic schools has to be considered too. Prospective DO students are, on average, staring down the barrel of substantially more debt than prospective MD students.

Most of the heavily-endowed allopathic schools are not so generous as to share their largesse with their students. They are, for the most part, willing to charge huge tuition rates and comparable books/ facility and other fees that chase their students into the clutches of lenders, public and private. A few exceptions exist, curiously mostly among state universities that have, besides direct taxpayer subsidies, large and sheltered private endowment funds as well. And in this time of state budget strains, there are fewer states that support their medical schools as some, like Texas, once did, so borrowing is more common. Most DO schools are private and expensive, and like all other private and expensive schools, they have availed themselves of HPSP money more than have less costly schools.

 

[ravager135]

This MD/DO debate is laughable. Everyone knows, myself included, that MCAT and to a lesser degree GPA numbers are lower for applicants who matriculate to DO programs. I was accepted to a number of DO schools, one of which I went to, and two allopathic schools. One was Uniformed Services which I would argue isn't the most competitive of schools either and Temple which I got into well after I had arranged my education and HPSP scholarship with PCOM.

That being said, the debate ends there. I have spent my time in the military working with DOs, MDs from Uniformed Services, MDs from Harvard, etc. I have excelled past and been short of physicians from each of these categories. Your medical school prestige ends about right when you graduate especially in the United States military. We all know what kind of physician you will become is formulated during your internship and how much effort you put into your own career. So knock off the dinosaur MD complex, DOs do enough self loathing to hamstring themselves. Military MD attendings who act as if their selection for specialty training had more to do with their alma mater and less to do with their GMO service, research, fit reps, internship performance are purpetuating lies.

To the original poster, I am happy I took the HPSP scholarship and I am also happy I am getting out shortly. I feel I have gained much from my experience in the military. When I finished fourth year I had not properly determined what exactly I wanted to do with my life. For me, the military and my experiences as a flight surgeon gave me new perspective and made me a much more competitive applicant in specialties that may have been outside my reach initially. The money was good. I have things most of my friends do not and I do feel a sense of pride about what I have done.

You unfortunately really aren't qualified yet to make any of the same statements. You arguement rests on presumptions some of which I shared with you when I initially signed up. You do need to come back in 5 years and discuss your feelings then. You may feel exactly the same but then again you may not. I have been very lucky as far as deployments. I haven't had to sacrifice a whole lot to be where I am standing today. However I have lived in four places the span of 3 years, I have lost a lot of relationships because of distance, I surrendered some of my early 20s to medical school and my later 20s to the USN, and I deal on a daily basis with shortfalls of Navy medicine mentioned by others.

You need perspective before you can make posts about being an officer versus a physician. RADM Nathan, my first CO at Portsmouth; his first words to us in his address were, "here you are a doctor first and an officer second." He was right.

 

[Mirror Form]

It's unfortunate that genuine reasons for joining are met with such negativity. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. My intentions were already stated.

If I were you (or anyone who hasn't been a military physician), I'd be thinking that the posters on this forum are a bit over the top with their negativity. But someday you'll look back and see exactly where they're coming from.

As many of the above posters have already stated, being a physician is not the type of job that can ever come second. If it does, then you should just stop practicing all together b/c it probably means you're a menace to society. And no, all the negative posters here aren't just people with bad attitudes who got into military medicine for the money. They're people who used to be just like you but ended up bitter.

 

[Gastrapathy]

RADM Nathan, my first CO at Portsmouth; his first words to us in his address were, "here you are a doctor first and an officer second." He was right.

A flea after my own heart.


As for the MD vs DO thing, I can't apologize for what I deal with everyday. I totally agree that your degree doesn't make a difference for our training programs.

But, the reality is that there is far more variability in the preparation that DOs receive during med school. Try training primary care interns and you'll see that some of them have never actually rounded independently. They get a degree by shadowing. They can't write orders or notes. These people are set up to fail. While there is clearly some difference in the average academic chops of MD vs DO students, the major difference is in the quality of their preparation. There are great DOs and there are solid DO schools. But some of the others...I just don't get how they can get away with what they provide for the tuition.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Agree, nothing to be gained there. There's more to the MD --> DO demographic shift than less interest and lower standards.

The extreme cost of many DO schools, compared to the many public allopathic schools and heavily-endowed private allopathic schools has to be considered too. Prospective DO students are, on average, staring down the barrel of substantially more debt than prospective MD students.

Allopathic students receive very little financial aid. The difference is pretty small between the average private allopathic school and the average DO school.

The demographic shift isn't just from MD --> DO, its from having more applicants than slots to begging anyone with an acceptance to either to join. I just heard a talk where they were discussing this and, don't quote me, but I think our average MCAT for HPSP students just climbed back up to 27.

 

[Gastrapathy]

The shots against a DO degree are cheap and unproductive. For some on here, I am embarrassed that you are actually allowed to care for anyone given your unprofessional attitudes and ignorant opinions. For the rest, I appreciate the advice and experience.

What I wrote generated about 10 posts on a major negative demographic trend in the .mil. I choose to define that as productive.

Since SDN is free and I'm unwilling to out myself by donating until my EAS, I concede that what I wrote was cheap.

I think I just figured it out. You wrote that as an application essay and cross-posted, right? Thats funny. I would love to see what drivel I spewed 15+ years ago.

 

[ravager135]

Look, I can't speak for every single DO program. I went to PCOM where on a daily basis I rounded with students from Drexel, UPenn, Temple, and Jefferson. While I think that my education is partly a product of competition, it also has alot to do with the fact that all of those medical schools were located in a city where there were many hospitals with many patients from many demographics. I don't think I was a successful intern because I had to stand up to the kid from UPenn, I think I was a success because I worked in hospitals that demanded alot from me as a 3rd and 4th year medical student.

With due respect, I was on many rotations where the stereotypical foreign born student from the MD program couldn't even effectively communicate discharge orders to a patient. We've all sat there and cringed as a colleague awkwardly tries to relate to a patient and comes up short. This is obviously a generalization.

My point: there's some broad generalizations being made on this forum regarding degrees. It's unlikely that any attending MD, DO, whatever in the military had such a large amount of interns from any one particular program to call into question a degree in the larger sense.

If an individual is in internship and cannot write a note, make simple clinical decisions, that is a failure on his clerkship years. It's obvious the majority of MD students did better than me in undergrad, but I think it ends there. DOs do enough to hurt themselves by trying to change the name of their degree (this MDO nonsense), act as if they had some better training because of OMT which the majority of them will never use, and write "Dr. Jackass" on their labcoat rather than "Jackass, DO."

 

[ravager135]

If there are DO programs where only family practice is emphasized or its graduates have never rounded independantly, I'd like to know what they are. I don't mean that as accusatory by any means. I am just suprised an MD knows enough about any such particular program to make this generalization. I am not an FP attending so I do not claim to have insight into what you see on a daily basis. If you say it's so, it's so. It just seems like a generalization.

 

[kingcer0x]

 

[Perrotfish]

But, the reality is that there is far more variability in the preparation that DOs receive during med school. Try training primary care interns and you'll see that some of them have never actually rounded independently. They get a degree by shadowing. They can't write orders or notes. These people are set up to fail. While there is clearly some difference in the average academic chops of MD vs DO students, the major difference is in the quality of their preparation. There are great DOs and there are solid DO schools. But some of the others...I just don't get how they can get away with what they provide for the tuition.

I'm not sure this is a problem that's unique to DO schools so much as this is a problem with the current generation of medical education. There are a lot of students at allopathic school who don't really write orders, who never do anything other than retract and maybe close skin in the OR, and who write notes that are 'though exercises' that never go in charts and are therefore never really read.

EMR is responsible for a lot of it. You can't write an order, perscription, or note if you can't access the system that does that. The ever mounting fear of litigation doesn't help either, and of course the ever increasing emphasis on written tests proportionately decreases the emphasis on wards medicine. Finally the ever expanding class size of every f-ing medical school has decreased the ratio of students to patients to the point where even when you do get some say in managing your patients you don't have enough patients to really get experienced or efficient. I know I'm not the only medical student who is scheduling rotations in the third world just to get the chance to get some real medical experience.

Sooner or later this will reach its logical conclusion and all 4 years of medical school will be in the classroom, and Intern year will be the first time you ever see a hospital. Until then you might as well get used to your Interns being more and more underprepared.

 

[PeachyPhd]

Can we get back to the OP please?

 

[ProwlerturnGas]

Ha Ha. This thread reminds me of the time I checked into my squadron on my second FS tour. I told my guys that I was a Veterinarian...the Navy was experimenting with sending Vets out for GMO tours with a fast course in human medicine prior to assignment. (it was my attempt to break the ice, so to speak). What I found funny was that most of them believed it!😱 In the end though NONE asked where I went to med school. I did do OMT at that time....this made me extremely popular. I guess my diploma mill DO degree helped😍

PTG

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I'm not sure this is a problem that's unique to DO schools so much as this is a problem with the current generation of medical education. There are a lot of students at allopathic school who don't really write orders, who never do anything other than retract and maybe close skin in the OR, and who write notes that are 'though exercises' that never go in charts and are therefore never really read.

EMR is responsible for a lot of it. You can't write an order, perscription, or note if you can't access the system that does that. The ever mounting fear of litigation doesn't help either, and of course the ever increasing emphasis on written tests proportionately decreases the emphasis on wards medicine. Finally the ever expanding class size of every f-ing medical school has decreased the ratio of students to patients to the point where even when you do get some say in managing your patients you don't have enough patients to really get experienced or efficient. I know I'm not the only medical student who is scheduling rotations in the third world just to get the chance to get some real medical experience.

Sooner or later this will reach its logical conclusion and all 4 years of medical school will be in the classroom, and Intern year will be the first time you ever see a hospital. Until then you might as well get used to your Interns being more and more underprepared.

The EMR issue has a remedy--no student note is entered into the record unless electronically co-signed by the attending. If the attending doesn't like the note, he doesn't sign it and it doesn't go to record.

 

[notdeadyet]

The EMR issue has a remedy--no student note is entered into the record unless electronically co-signed by the attending. If the attending doesn't like the note, he doesn't sign it and it doesn't go to record.

Agreed. There are a lot of safeguards that allow medical students and residents great access but also requiring qualified oversight. An all-or-nothing installation is just bad planning.

The only thing worse than no EMR is a poorly planned and implemented EMR.

 

[pgg]

The only thing worse than no EMR is a poorly planned and implemented EMR.

AHLTA is an abomination.

Essentris is fine for ENTERING data and orders, it's just excruciatingly painful to try to FIND useful information buried in it that someone else entered. And it's kludgy. Almost cartoonish.

Navy anesthesia seems to have got it right though. Innovian is a pretty good system (though I have no real exposure to its competitors), it works and doesn't get in the way.



/ hijack #2 ? 😀

 

[Galo]

To the OP,

I do wish you luck. I think you are very likely to end up like alot of the people who post negatively here due to their experiences. Either way, I hope you keep people posted about your experiences.

It would behoove you some to listen to people who have had experience in a broken system.