Why is a LOR from a physician bad?

[theonlytycrane]

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Happy holidays 🙂 I've been trying to learn more about types of letters of recommendation from individuals - and as I've read through various threads I've noticed that many posters have commented that a LOR from a physician that one has shadowed is (weak, not recommended, or even bad).

Why is this the case? I can understand that a letter like this may be weak if a student shadows for less than 40 hours and has not established a relationship with the physician. But what if a student shadows for a prolonged period of time and has built a strong professional relationship with the physician?

Thanks!

 

[WedgeDawg]

Hi! I'm going to direct you to a post that user @mimelim wrote a while ago that explains this better than I ever possibly could.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/letters-of-recommendation.985472/

Happy Holidays!

 

[mehc012]

Happy holidays 🙂 I've been trying to learn more about types of letters of recommendation from individuals - and as I've read through various threads I've noticed that many posters have commented that a LOR from a physician that one has shadowed is (weak, not recommended, or even bad).

Why is this the case? I can understand that a letter like this may be weak if a student shadows for less than 40 hours and has not established a relationship with the physician. But what if a student shadows for a prolonged period of time and has built a strong professional relationship with the physician?

Thanks!

List out the absolute best things a doc you shadowed could say about you. Assume that you rocked their socks off and they wrote you the best possible letter based on the interactions you've had.

Now list out the best things a professor, or a supervisor, or a PI could write about you. The difference in those two lists should be self-evident...even a flimsy rec from an actual professional relationship probably contains as much material as the best possible shadowing LOR.

At the end of the day, someone who you shadowed can attest to only a very few of the characteristics which ought to be in a LOR, and you're not likely to have a strong relationship with them anyway. It's not the MD that's the problem, it's simply that all they can really say is that you dress professionally, show up on time (with very low hours/requirements), and stay out of the way. Even if you shadow over a prolonged period, you really haven't built a strong professional relationship.

 

[theonlytycrane]

Thank you for the responses - I just have a quick follow up question.

Given that a LOR from a physician may be weak, is it better to include this letter as a 4th, 5th, or 6th letter (in addition to 3+ letters from Professors), or is it better to just omit this letter altogether?

I think what I'm leaning toward is *not relying* on a LOR from a physician for the required 3 letters, but possibly including one as a 4th, 5th, or 6th letter.

Merry Christmas!

 

[WedgeDawg]

I would just omit it. It's not really going to add anything.

 

[Levrone]

If I already have the 2 LORs from science professors and 1 from a non-science professor, could a LOR from a doctor that works at the medical school's hospital that is my top choice help at all? If that didn't make sense, my top choice is UM, and I was a patient at the UM hospital (detached tendon from gym) and got to know the sports med doctor and have been shadowing him.. so a letter from him wouldn't up my chances of getting into UM at all? 🙁

 

[tima]

If I already have the 2 LORs from science professors and 1 from a non-science professor, could a LOR from a doctor that works at the medical school's hospital that is my top choice help at all? If that didn't make sense, my top choice is UM, and I was a patient at the UM hospital (detached tendon from gym) and got to know the sports med doctor and have been shadowing him.. so a letter from him wouldn't up my chances of getting into UM at all? 🙁

A letter from med school hospital won't help that much. Remember there are thousands of applicants and many of the local applicants probably shadowed at that hospital or one that's nearby. It might be more useful if that person is of higher ranking (director, chief).

 

[mehc012]

If I already have the 2 LORs from science professors and 1 from a non-science professor, could a LOR from a doctor that works at the medical school's hospital that is my top choice help at all? If that didn't make sense, my top choice is UM, and I was a patient at the UM hospital (detached tendon from gym) and got to know the sports med doctor and have been shadowing him.. so a letter from him wouldn't up my chances of getting into UM at all? 🙁

Again, what matters is not so much who is writing your letter, but what they can say about you. You could get Barack Obama to write you a letter, but if all he said was 'this person was good at standing in the corner quietly', that's not particularly helpful.

 

[mehc012]

Thank you for the responses - I just have a quick follow up question.

Given that a LOR from a physician may be weak, is it better to include this letter as a 4th, 5th, or 6th letter (in addition to 3+ letters from Professors), or is it better to just omit this letter altogether?

I think what I'm leaning toward is *not relying* on a LOR from a physician for the required 3 letters, but possibly including one as a 4th, 5th, or 6th letter.

Merry Christmas!

I mean, sure. It probably won't hurt you. But by still wanting to include it, you seem unconvinced that it is a weak letter, which is concerning only because it shows that you may not truly understand what makes a good/bad/weak/strong letter. I would ask yourself the 'what would this person say about me if they said every single positive thing they could?' question for each of your letter writers.

 

[tima]

Again, what matters is not so much who is writing your letter, but what they can say about you. You could get Barack Obama to write you a letter, but if all he said was 'this person was good at standing in the corner quietly', that's not particularly helpful.

Actually it does matter who is writing the LOR. A higher ranking Dr will be more useful than an assistant professor or a new attending. Plus, the higher ranking Dr has more contacts (probably knows a few adcoms at the school) and can make a call for you.

 

[mehc012]

Actually it does matter who is writing the LOR. A higher ranking Dr will be more useful than an assistant professor or a new attending. Plus, the higher ranking Dr has more contacts (probably knows a few adcoms at the school) and can make a call for you.

The best LOR writer is someone who knows you well from a professional setting. You would be better off getting a letter from the postdoc in the big fancy professor/attending's lab, who saw you daily and worked closely with you, than from Dr. BigFancy themselves if they don't know how you are to work with.

 

[tima]

The best LOR writer is someone who knows you well from a professional setting. You would be better off getting a letter from the postdoc in the big fancy professor/attending's lab, who saw you daily and worked closely with you, than from Dr. BigFancy themselves if they don't know how you are to work with.

The student should make an effort to know Dr. BigFancy so that a better LOR could be written. Shadowing him on a consistent basis, asking questions, getting involved in research, etc

I would take an average Dr. BigFancy LOR than a great postdoc LOR any day. I see more advantages in Dr. BigFancy .

 

[theonlytycrane]

I think I agree with @tima , but I'm taking everyone's responses into consideration. Thank you to everyone for the insight!

 

[mehc012]

The student should make an effort to know Dr. BigFancy so that a better LOR could be written. Shadowing him on a consistent basis, asking questions, getting involved in research, etc

I would take an average Dr. BigFancy LOR than a great postdoc LOR any day. I see more advantages in Dr. BigFancy .

9 times out of 10, the adcom member reading your app won't know the difference between Dr. BigFancy and Dr. Postdoc. They're not going to Google each of your LOR writers, so unless they already know them, the pedigree won't help. So, sure...perhaps Dr. BigFancy is bffs with the adcom director at one school and gets you a courtesy interview invite - which doesn't really help you much if you weren't going to be invited otherwise. Meanwhile, at the other 7-71 (yes, I knew a guy who applied to 72 schools. He was a bit odd) places you applied, you've now selected a weaker LOR over a great one.

 

[Phrozen]

Thank you for the responses - I just have a quick follow up question.

Given that a LOR from a physician may be weak, is it better to include this letter as a 4th, 5th, or 6th letter (in addition to 3+ letters from Professors), or is it better to just omit this letter altogether?

I think what I'm leaning toward is *not relying* on a LOR from a physician for the required 3 letters, but possibly including one as a 4th, 5th, or 6th letter.

Merry Christmas!

I can offer my 2 cents. I only have 4 total letters, 1 science prof and 1 PI, the last 2 letters are both from physicians I've shadowed over the past year and have developed a good relationship. I think I've done fine this cycle

 

[ridethecliche]

I can offer my 2 cents. I only have 4 total letters, 1 science prof and 1 PI, the last 2 letters are both from physicians I've shadowed over the past year and have developed a good relationship. I think I've done fine this cycle

The question is whether you would have been better served if one or both of those LOR's came from other professors or such.

 

[Phrozen]

The question is whether you would have been better served if one or both of those LOR's came from other professors or such.

In my case I didn't have any other profs to write me a letter (didn't develop relationships), so I couldn't fulfill the 2-science/1-nonscience rule. If I had other profs, I definitely would've picked them over the physicians. But at the end of the day, I don't think my situation hurt my application at all (although there are always ways to make any application better)

 

[ridethecliche]

You don't know that it didn't hurt you though.

 

[And_so_what]

Heck yea who writes the letter matters lmao. When you receive an email, do you first look at what's in the email or whom the email is from ? lmao a strong letter from Mr Unknown really does NOT measure to an average letter from Mr. Fancy. And plus Mr. Fancy is always more trustworthy and more reliable about his observations than Mr. Unknown, which explains why Mr. Fancy is fancy and Mr, Unknown is unknown in the first place.

 

[FutureOncologist]

If you were applying to a shadowing program at a hospital, then it'd pull some weight. Otherwise, it won't add much, if anything at all.

 

[mehc012]

Heck yea who writes the letter matters lmao. When you receive an email, do you first look at what's in the email or whom the email is from ? lmao a strong letter from Mr Unknown really does NOT measure to an average letter from Mr. Fancy. And plus Mr. Fancy is always more trustworthy and more reliable about his observations than Mr. Unknown, which explains why Mr. Fancy is fancy and Mr, Unknown is unknown in the first place.

Again, the adcom is not Googling each of your LOR writers. Odds are, to the person reading your application, there is no discernible difference between Dr. Unknown and Dr. Fancy. If Dr. Unknown can write you a great letter, and Dr. Fancy only a generic or OK one, you're better off with Dr. Unknown every time.

The bolded just shows how little you know of academic research and/or medicine. It's a ridiculous assertion.

 

[And_so_what]

Again, the adcom is not Googling each of your LOR writers. Odds are, to the person reading your application, there is no discernible difference between Dr. Unknown and Dr. Fancy. If Dr. Unknown can write you a great letter, and Dr. Fancy only a generic or OK one, you're better off with Dr. Unknown every time.

The bolded just shows how little you know of academic research and/or medicine. It's a ridiculous assertion.

you don't need to google the letter writers, their positions are on the letterhead, surprising that you are the ignorant one here.

 

[mehc012]

you don't need to google the letter writers, their positions are on the letterhead, surprising that you are the ignorant one here.

A) that is not always the case
B) I assumed you were continuing the above discussion, which pertained only to relative rank/seniority, rather than some specific title
C) Even so, the person reading an LOR is looking for what it says about you, the applicant, not what could be said about the letter writer. Thus, the best letter is one that says great things about you, not one written by someone famous.

 

[And_so_what]

A) that is not always the case
B) I assumed you were continuing the above discussion, which pertained only to relative rank/seniority, rather than some specific title
C) Even so, the person reading an LOR is looking for what it says about you, the applicant, not what could be said about the letter writer. Thus, the best letter is one that says great things about you, not one written by someone famous.

That is only what you think and it is far away from the truth. A strong letter from a postdoc definitely weighs less than a strong letter from a director or chief of surgery from a great hospital. And if you didn't know, the source always matters, people always tend to trust reputable sources when it comes to information. So even if a postdoc were to write you a strong letter, it would never carry the same weight as a strong letter from a higher ranked professional.

 

[gyngyn]

We get letters from the governor and legislators all the time. Generic letters from people paid to represent you have little weight in decision making, though sometimes interviews are granted to appease.
Even those who have distingushed careers in medicine are often unknown to the majority of those reviewing applications.

 

[mehc012]

That is only what you think and it is far away from the truth. A strong letter from a postdoc definitely weighs less than a strong letter from a director or chief of surgery from a great hospital. And if you didn't know, the source always matters, people always tend to trust reputable sources when it comes to information. So even if a postdoc were to write you a strong letter, it would never carry the same weight as a strong letter from a higher ranked professional.

It is what I think based on conversations I have had with multiple adcom members, both on this site and elsewhere. It also requires using only a slight amount of common sense.
The first and most important factor of an LOR is what it says about the applicant. A 'great' LOR from anyone eligible is better than a mediocre or generic one from anyone.

 

[And_so_what]

OP my advice to you is to get strong letters from reputable professionals. Get closer to reputable professionals, network with reputable professionals, because as much as medical schools make it seem like a black or white process it is not, and great connections will always give you an edge in many places you go to.

 

[And_so_what]

It is what I think based on conversations I have had with multiple adcom members, both on this site and elsewhere. It also requires using only a slight amount of common sense.
The first and most important factor of an LOR is what it says about the applicant. A 'great' LOR from anyone eligible is better than a mediocre or generic one from anyone.

I never said OP should get generic letters. A strong letter from a more reputable professional weighs more than a strong letter from an unknown. I'm only talking about strong letters here.

 

[Phrozen]

You don't know that it didn't hurt you though.

Nobody knows anything for sure, but I think getting accepted in a top 25 is good enough to say it probably didn't hurt at all. I doubt having 2 more prof letters would have changed things for a top 10 or top 5, it takes more than just glowing recs.

 

[ridethecliche]

Heck yea who writes the letter matters lmao. When you receive an email, do you first look at what's in the email or whom the email is from ? lmao a strong letter from Mr Unknown really does NOT measure to an average letter from Mr. Fancy. And plus Mr. Fancy is always more trustworthy and more reliable about his observations than Mr. Unknown, which explains why Mr. Fancy is fancy and Mr, Unknown is unknown in the first place.

Exhibit A: Here we have a delusional pre-med disagreeing with the views of established adcomm members...

Nobody knows anything for sure, but I think getting accepted in a top 25 is good enough to say it probably didn't hurt at all. I doubt having 2 more prof letters would have changed things for a top 10 or top 5, it takes more than just glowing recs.

Just as long as you don't turn into a nihilist pissing on my rug...

Congrats btw.

 

[mehc012]

I never said OP should get generic letters. A strong letter from a more reputable professional weighs more than a strong letter from an unknown. I'm only talking about strong letters here.

Then you are jumping in on a conversation which was already ongoing and apparently completely changing the premise without specifying that you are doing so.

 

[WingedOx]

That is only what you think and it is far away from the truth. A strong letter from a postdoc definitely weighs less than a strong letter from a director or chief of surgery from a great hospital. And if you didn't know, the source always matters, people always tend to trust reputable sources when it comes to information. So even if a postdoc were to write you a strong letter, it would never carry the same weight as a strong letter from a higher ranked professional.

🙄

The problem is you're missing the point. For getting into medical school, a letter from a doctor fancy still isn't going to be worth much. For residency, sure, it's going to be helpful, but as mimelim said, what the hell can a department chair say about you as a pre-med that's going to be worth anything to be considered "strong"?

And even as someone who spent the last 4 months reading letters for admission for MS4s to our residency program, I saw the gamut of letters from providers out in the community to big shots in the field. A well-written letter with specifics and detail beats a generic letter regardless of who sends it every time. We're looking for future colleagues and people who will be working side by side with us and we want specific evidence of why we're not going to be covering this applicant's ass for the next 3-5 years. Hearing from a Dept Chair that someone was a generic-sounding "solid-strong applicant" without telling me why doesn't mean a damn thing.

The best one I read this year was from a rising star in my field who wrote along the lines of "I have trained at Mass General, and have held positions and [elite place in our field], and [another elite place in our field] and this is as good of a student as I have encountered." Seriously dude, are you talking up the applicant or yourself? . C'mon, give me some detail.

 

[And_so_what]

Then you are jumping in on a conversation which was already ongoing and apparently completely changing the premise without specifying that you are doing so.

You are the one changing the premise of the conversation. OP did say that he had a great relationship with the physician and could get a strong letter from him/her. You are really delusional.

 

[mehc012]

You are the one changing the premise of the conversation. OP did say that he had a great relationship with the physician and could get a strong letter from him/her. You are really delusional.

Then you did not read the rest of the thread, but only the OP.

A letter from med school hospital won't help that much. Remember there are thousands of applicants and many of the local applicants probably shadowed at that hospital or one that's nearby. It might be more useful if that person is of higher ranking (director, chief).

Again, what matters is not so much who is writing your letter, but what they can say about you. You could get Barack Obama to write you a letter, but if all he said was 'this person was good at standing in the corner quietly', that's not particularly helpful.

Actually it does matter who is writing the LOR. A higher ranking Dr will be more useful than an assistant professor or a new attending. Plus, the higher ranking Dr has more contacts (probably knows a few adcoms at the school) and can make a call for you.

The best LOR writer is someone who knows you well from a professional setting. You would be better off getting a letter from the postdoc in the big fancy professor/attending's lab, who saw you daily and worked closely with you, than from Dr. BigFancy themselves if they don't know how you are to work with.

The student should make an effort to know Dr. BigFancy so that a better LOR could be written. Shadowing him on a consistent basis, asking questions, getting involved in research, etc

I would take an average Dr. BigFancy LOR than a great postdoc LOR any day. I see more advantages in Dr. BigFancy .

9 times out of 10, the adcom member reading your app won't know the difference between Dr. BigFancy and Dr. Postdoc. They're not going to Google each of your LOR writers, so unless they already know them, the pedigree won't help. So, sure...perhaps Dr. BigFancy is bffs with the adcom director at one school and gets you a courtesy interview invite - which doesn't really help you much if you weren't going to be invited otherwise. Meanwhile, at the other 7-71 (yes, I knew a guy who applied to 72 schools. He was a bit odd) places you applied, you've now selected a weaker LOR over a great one.

That is the conversation on the topic up to the point where you jumped in. As you can see, the topic being discussed at the point where you entered was "avg letter from Dr. BigFancy vs great letter from Dr. Postdoc"

 

[And_so_what]

Then you did not read the rest of the thread, but only the OP.





That is the conversation on the topic up to the point where you jumped in. As you can see, the topic being discussed at the point where you entered was "avg letter from Dr. BigFancy vs great letter from Dr. Postdoc"

Then you did not read the rest of the thread, but only the OP.





That is the conversation on the topic up to the point where you jumped in. As you can see, the topic being discussed at the point where you entered was "avg letter from Dr. BigFancy vs great letter from Dr. Postdoc"

I'm not obliged to follow your conversation. I'm responding to OP and my advice is that you are always better off with a strong letter from a more highly ranked professional.

 

[LizzyM]

You could get Barack Obama to write you a letter, but if all he said was 'this person was good at standing in the corner quietly', that's not particularly helpful.

Hey, is Joe Biden applying to med school?

 

[Goro]

I've seen LORs from US Senators and Nobel Laureates. They fail to save marginal candidates.

I will place more faith in a LOR from one of my grads, who would know the strengths and weaknesses of our program and is a in a better position to judge whether the applicant can make it in our med school.

Believe it or not, medical education is not identical to what it was 20 years ago, and so the Dept' Chair who never sets foot in a classroom may have very little to judge whether a candidate can make it med school today.

I'm not obliged to follow your conversation. I'm responding to OP and my advice is that you are always better off with a strong letter from a more highly ranked professional.

 

[mehc012]

Hey, is Joe Biden applying to med school?

Yeah, but he didn't get a letter like that because he keeps making thumbs-up signs instead of standing in the corner quietly!

 

[mehc012]

I'm not obliged to follow your conversation. I'm responding to OP and my advice is that you are always better off with a strong letter from a more highly ranked professional.

...which is actually completely irrelevant to the question posed by the OP anyway, so you basically just posted something on your own random tangent, ignoring both the OP and the subsequent thread. Strong work. 🙄

 

[And_so_what]

...which is actually completely irrelevant to the question posed by the OP anyway, so you basically just posted something on your own random tangent, ignoring both the OP and the subsequent thread. Strong work. 🙄

You don't have to comment on what I posted since you are not the OP and I'm not following your conversation.

 

[Straw Hat]

So to add to the OP, a letter from a soon to be retired physician who taught at the school, was assistant dean for some time and in general is very highly regarded won't pull much weight at that particular school? Does it look even worse if he's going to be your future father in law?

 

[pithy84]

If you worked in a research lab with close contact with Dr. Postdoc, and the PI was Dr. FancyPants, then how about this:

Have Dr. Postdoc write the letter and have Dr. FancyPants sign it. The best of both worlds? Possibly.

This was fairly routine in my department, both for med school and PhD programs. The adcoms do know the difference, because Dr. FancyPants has letterhead that says "Dr. FancyPants, Rich H. Moneybags Professor of Biology", whereas Dr. Postdoc just has letterhead that says "University of Happyville".

 

[Mad Jack]

Get the LoR just in case you need to apply DO. It's way easier to get it now than later, and if your MCAT comes back less than expected, most DO schools require a physician letter and you'll already have one in hand.

 

[mehc012]

You don't have to comment on what I posted since you are not the OP and I'm not following your conversation.

Sorry, public forums don't work that way. It's not a 'have to' thing, just a 'going to', as in "if you post random crap which seems to directly relate to the ongoing conversation I am involved in and may be misleading/confusing to anyone who actually bothered to read the whole thread, I will comment, regardless of whether or not you think I should have been able to read your mind and predict that your response was pointless and not related to anything previously posted."

 

[mehc012]

If you worked in a research lab with close contact with Dr. Postdoc, and the PI was Dr. FancyPants, then how about this:

Have Dr. Postdoc write the letter and have Dr. FancyPants sign it. The best of both worlds? Possibly.

This was fairly routine in my department, both for med school and PhD programs. The adcoms do know the difference, because Dr. FancyPants has letterhead that says "Dr. FancyPants, Rich H. Moneybags Professor of Biology", whereas Dr. Postdoc just has letterhead that says "University of Happyville".

Sure, if it makes you feel better, do it that way. As long as you end up with a letter which says the best possible things about you. If it makes you feel better to think that the adcoms are impressed by Dr. BigFancy's name sitting there like a trophy, it's not going to hurt. It just probably won't matter.

 

[And_so_what]

Sorry, public forums don't work that way. It's not a 'have to' thing, just a 'going to', as in "if you post random crap which seems to directly relate to the ongoing conversation I am involved in and may be misleading/confusing to anyone who actually bothered to read the whole thread, I will comment, regardless of whether or not you think I should have been able to read your mind and predict that your response was pointless and not related to anything previously posted."

Whatever you are just full of crap.

Edit: I actually meant you are full of B.S.

 

[And_so_what]

And also, if you are too dumb to understand what am saying, just ask it, if you are still too ashamed to ask, just ignore it. If you are still too dumb to ignore it, just mind your own crap you have been posting here.

Sorry, public forums don't work that way. It's not a 'have to' thing, just a 'going to', as in "if you post random crap which seems to directly relate to the ongoing conversation I am involved in and may be misleading/confusing to anyone who actually bothered to read the whole thread, I will comment, regardless of whether or not you think I should have been able to read your mind and predict that your response was pointless and not related to anything previously posted."

 

[mehc012]

And also, if you are too dumb to understand what am saying, just ask it, if you are still too ashamed to ask, just ignore it. If you are still too dumb to ignore it, just mind your own crap you have been posting here.

Right. The problem is that I don't understand the incredibly complex points you've been making.

 

[Ariodant]

Bottom line is, in a academic hospital setting, the physician, dragging an army of residents, interns and medical students, usually doesn't have time to interact with the premed standing in the corner. That said, when I was an adcom I did read letters from nurses or directors of free clinics to screen for red flags. Letters from professors cannot speak to your behaviors in a healthcare setting. I wanted to know if you were committed to showing up regularly, didn't piss anyone off, and generally acted professionally. These letters would not rule you in, but I would look through them for things that might rule you out.

 

[JVav]

I received a LOR from a physician I did research with this summer. I don't know what it said, obviously, but I feel like it was probably my best LOR. After working with him for 10 weeks, I can tell that he was extremely genuine and would not have offered to do it if it wasn't going to be good.

I would say just use your judgement. Does the physician seem like he/she will write a sincere and worthwhile LOR? If not, don't do it.