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Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Street Philosopher, Oct 30, 2002.
por que harvard > johns hopkins?
Porque US News & World Report dice tan.
porque harvard pwns ghetto-hopkinz
porque es Harvardo
?El espa?ol chupa!; Lassen Sie, da? uns Deutsch versuchen!
Weil harvard pwns Getto hopkins!
Harvard is ranked #1 in the US news solely because they have more hospital affiliations than Hopkins does.
This means that they have more research dollars because US news counts all the research dollars for ALL the affiliated hospitals.
Hopkins is a real close 2nd place, but as long as Harvard continues to have like 17 different hospitals, they have big enough research dollar edge to stay in the #1 slot.
In my opinion, Hopkins is better than Harvard... Harvard gets "bonus" points amongst the applicants solely because it has a spectacular undergrad reputation. If Harvard didnt have its undergrad program, and you were evaluating medical schools BASED SOLELY on the medical school itself, I think Hopkins would be the clear consensus #1 med school in the world, provided that you are ranking schools based SOLELY on the strength of the med school, without undergrad or location being considered.
Obviously, Hopkins location is the one thing that hurts it. If Hopkins was located in a better area of town, and if the undergrad had a similar rep as Harvard, I would bet that they would be the clear #1 med school in the world
How do you jump from "in my opinion" to "clear consensus" and "obviously?" Anyone else want to know? And how do you say "solely" at the beginning and then keep giving more reasons why Hahvahd comes out as #1? (including another "solely") Your argument really falls apart.
I seriously doubt that JHU's location within Baltimore has anything to do with it. Maybe the fact that it's in Baltimore, as opposed to the Boston area which has so many hospitals and so many academics, but not just the location within Baltimore. Why would the undergrad program have anything to do with the med school?
You haven't provided any argument for why Hopkins is a better medical school.
I frankly don't know how one can make a general statement that one school is better than others. Harvard is different from Hopkins. Some people might thrive in the Hopkins environment; others like the Harvard environment more; and to many of us, a state school is the perfect choice.
i just bring this up because i was reading hopkins' history and all the discoveries made there and i wondered how any school could top it. i haven't researched harvard yet because for all i know they've thrown my app in the dumpster.
well.. HArvard has so much money that they actually own USNEWS...
seriously though, Harvard's NIH grant money practically doubles that of hopkins. i think that says a lot.
as to the guy who said that HArvard med gets a boost from the glowing reputation of its undergrad, I think you're putting the cart before the horse. the strength of harvard's undergrad is really an outgrowth of the strength of its grad schools... think about it, its the grad schools which attract preeminent professors... that filters down to the undergrad.
I think the other thing which works hugely in harvard meds favor (and I'll be the first one to admit that it is purely intangible) is that it is surrounded by one of the best research universities in the world. I doubt anyone could claim that JHU has the same breadth as H does... e.g. across religion, mathematics, english, history....
I'm not on the nuts of the big H, but I'll give it credit for what it has accomplished.
To begin, I dont go to Harvard. I go to Duke. This disclaimer aside, the fact is Harvard not only has the best financial resources in the nation, but the best faculty as well for research.
If you search on Medline or Ovid for articles based on university, Harvard by far has the most. Their financial stature is much more secure than Johns Hopkins because they have a prominent undergrad, grad, and professional program.
That being said, comparing Harvard to Johns Hopkins is really like comparing a BMW to a Mercedes, it is merely personal preference. Just turns out, based on US News criteria, that Harvard wins out (but barely).
no matter if you like it
take it sit down and write it..
honestly, it's probably mostly the research money, and maybe reputation. I've heard harvard doesn't treat faculty super well, there was an article about it in nature news recently.
I'm not too too interested in the Hopkins vs. Harvard debate; I doubt any physician would look down on you for choosing one over the other (I have a friend at Stanford now who turned them *both* down so there).
However, as a graduate from Hopkins undergraduate program, I would like to say in their defense that both the History and English departments are ranked in the top ten for graduate studies consistently.
I won't act like I knew that Hopkins had such great programs in all fields of study before matriculating there, but I was very impressed at the prestige of the faculty in the humanities (math is top twenty-five).
As someone who studied both English and Mathematics there, I take offense to the majority of Americans who think I already have an MD since I went to "JOHN Hopkins."
Johns Hopkins Class of 2002
For some Hopkins would be a better learning environment, for others, Harvard would. There is no one best school for everyone. To say there is one school that is the best is failing to take into consideration individual needs.
As far as US News goes, yeah Harvard is the best at getting money from the NIH. Wow, and I'm sure the non-MSTP students at Harvard are reaping the rewards of that money on a daily basis..I don't think so. What is more important? How much money a school gets? How good is the clinical training? How strong of an emphasis does the school put on teaching, versus research? These are all things that some people will prioritize differently. US News tends to look at $ as a main determining factor. Nowhere in the US News do they take clinical training or quality of clerkships into consideration. They do take residency directors' opinions of certain schools, but I don' t think that fully describes a school's clinical strongpoints.
I guess my point is: there is no one best school for everyone.
Listen to Souljah's wisdom!
If your question is "why does the USNews rank harvard higher than hopkins", then the answer is simply that the magazine takes into account factors in which categories harvard is better.
If your question is "why is harvard a better medical school or why is hopkins a better medical school" then i wish you luck in answering to the satisfaction of all SDNers...
in my eyes a decision between hopkins and harvard would not be difficult--they are very different schools, with very different teaching styles/environments/opportunities. but the important thing is: to each his own! people who like PBL perhaps would not thrive at hopkins. people who like structured lectures perhaps would not thrive at harvard.
i love hopkins and think it is the best place i have ever been, and i have many friends who love HMS. its not an either-or thing!
best of luck to all.
Johns Hopkins SOM
b/c JHU rejected me < 2weeks after my ap was complete...
OK, I might be off here, so someone correct me if that is the case. The ranking of NIH awards to medical schools is at http://grants2.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medschrank00.txt . According to this, Hopkins is first, followed by Penn, WashU, UCSF, and Yale. Harvard is ranked 18. (The University of Alabama is ranked 17; I couldn't resist adding that.)
As pointed out before, the grant money reported by USNews includes affiliated hospitals. So, which number is more reflective of a med school's quality: money recieved by the school, or money recieved by the school plus its affiliated hospitals?
owen, you nailed it.
darkchild, again the reason Harvard is number one in total research money is because they have an insane number of affiliated hospitals that are scattered across Boston; each of these hospitals research dollars from the NIH is automatically included in the US news rankings. When you break it down to NIH money going to the med schools (as opposed to med school + affiliated hospitals) then Harvard, as owen noted falls way down on the list.
There is no arguing that Harvard has a better overall graduate and undergraduate program, and the location is much better... thats not what I'm trying to argue. What I'm saying is that IF you throw out location and other undergrad/grad programs and look SOLELY at the med school itself, then I believe Hopkins has an edge.
Since Harvard has a huge number of affiliated hospitals, that also means they have the largest faculty in the country, because US news is counting all of those docs at all of those affiliated hospitals as faculty.. even though they may never have anything to do with the med school itself.
So, no, I'm not even close to unbiased...
But I can tell you that students from Hopkins arrive at their internships and hit the ground running because they have been so thoroughly trained.
Compared to Harvard med school products who aren't as well prepared, need more hand-holding, and have less general background knowledge.
A friend of mine who went to med school here at Hopkins and is now a resident at the Brigham is my source of info on the interns from Harvard.
I would never want to imply that Harvard med students are not as bright as Hopkins students, bc I doubt there's any difference at all, it's just a difference in the training. The Harvard med school grads catch up clinically, of course.
And of course Hopkins has some duds, every school does. But for the most part they know how to get things done, and are comfortable making decisions on their own. The basic science years at Hopkins are traditional, but they DO have PBL -- it's just not a PBL based system. I have to point out though that the basic science years are less than half of med school, and they are definitely less important than the clinical years. For people who are hooked on the concept of PBL, remember that the basic science years are just two years of your many years of training.
And if you want me to tell you the virtues of the internal medicine residency program at Hopkins, I will. ;-)
So is Harvard a better med school than Hopkins? I find it hard to believe that any place could be better than Hopkins. I know that the USNews people don't base their rankings on opinions of the performance of people who graduate from the med school though.
That's all for now.
I can't believe I just read the above post making Harvard medical students sound like morons. This is by far the most biased account of the comparision between the two I ever read.
I know people applying to both and who have graduated from both schools, the differences are completely trivial. You make it appear as if most Harvard students don't understand the clinical aspect as well as JHU students due to lack of prep? Many Harvard grads would say the same about JHU. But both groups are wrong, both sets of students are extremely bright.
This is indeed not the case, because making that generalization trivializes the individuals there. The fact is there both good, the students at both are good, and the faculty at both are good. But from a purely statistical standpoint, Harvard is better.
I can't believe I wasted time responded to the above-posted popropaganda =(
Hearing stories from a single friend leads to sweeping generalizations.
Assuming that there's "a difference in the training," where's the evidence that HMS grads have to "catch up clinically"???
I find this "who's better - hopkins or harvard" thread quite amusing.. keep it goin!!
I just wanna share this w/ y'all.. a commentary from Dr.Finkelstein at Hopkins on the rankings bonanza..
"I wish to emphasize the (im)moral status of ranking medical care in publications, both lay and scientific, just as I would object to the ranking of religious institutions or of one's own family members, because they should not be treated publicly as commodities. The practice of medicine is different from the selling of a used car and should not be treated like that type of business.
Of course, institutions should strive for improvement through the careful and private use of well-chosen guidelines, but the publication of those data must not be used to advance the businesses of medical care or journal circulation.
I appreciate Dr Lee's efforts to establish benchmarks and agree with him that should they prove valid, they might be helpful. In that case, however, they should be used only internally, privately, and appropriately for the humanitarian improvement of the institution.
Daniel Finkelstein, MD
I just want to add that the book, Time to Heal: American Medical Education from the Turn of the Century to the Era of Managed Care, comes right out and says that Harvard Medical School has been the number one medical school for the last ten years. That is, it is considered to be the best (I don't know about the author's own opinion). Before that, Hopkins was the undisputed champ.
I forget the author's wording but the criteria was based on research money and the reputation of the curriculum. It seems the New Pathway program is what slightly sets Harvard apart from Hopkins.
I dunno, I honestly think the top 20 med schools are interchangeable.
Johns Hopkins School of Medicine
Class of 2006
Not to add fuel to this "heated" debate or anything but I heard from my Yale med friend who is doing his 4th year sub-I rotation: he is only assigned a max of 2 patients and still report straight to the intern (instead of acting at the intern-level and report straight to the resident). Uhm........
and Lizard King... it's the top 5 that are relatively undistinguishable, not the top 20.
Read ..."Harvard Med" by John Langone, 1995.
I love it when the deans and presidents of top ranked (1 or 2) come out against rankings. It's easy for them to discount them. The sincerest form of false modesty. Yale law comes out every years against the USNWR rankings. Every year they are number one.
It'a a matter of opinion that's all. Although I enjoyed the area Hopkins was in, I thought everyone at Hopkins was very unfreindly. In addition there was a sense of adolescent competition at Hopkins which I did not care for.
Research funding aside it's just about where you can better think medicine.
Well I think its quite obvious now that you've never even been to the Hopkins medical campus.