Why is it harder for nontrad?

[thirdunity]

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Everyone is saying that it's harder for nontrads.

Why is it harder, assuming you don't have kids or a spouse or a full time job? I am assuming these are the reasons it would be harder.

At 31 and being a soon-to-be-divorcee w/o kids, I don't have these things, and am finding school *easier* than it was when I was 21... I have way better study skills and because I work smarter and have life experience, I don't have to work half as hard. I will be working part-time, but so do lots of 20something students.

So the only reason I can see it would be harder, is if you have spouse, full time job, kids, et cetera.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Everyone is saying that it's harder for nontrads.

Why is it harder, assuming you don't have kids or a spouse or a full time job? I am assuming these are the reasons it would be harder.

At 31 and being a soon-to-be-divorcee w/o kids, I don't have these things, and am finding school *easier* than it was when I was 21... I have way better study skills and because I work smarter and have life experience, I don't have to work half as hard. I will be working part-time, but so do lots of 20something students.

So the only reason I can see it would be harder, is if you have spouse, full time job, kids, et cetera.

I think some folks say it's "harder" for three reasons: 1. Nontrads are usually older and have a lot more going on in their lives (mortgage, family, secure, well-paying jobs). 2. Older applicants tend to be farther removed from prereqs and that definitely makes it harder to do well on the MCAT - a test that keeps many students out of medical school. 3. It's often harder to justify a change of career to an adcom member who sees so many 'cookie-cutter', traditional applications and ask "why medicine, why now" etc. Of course, there are always exceptions for everything......

 

[njbmd]

Everyone is saying that it's harder for nontrads.

Why is it harder, assuming you don't have kids or a spouse or a full time job? I am assuming these are the reasons it would be harder.

At 31 and being a soon-to-be-divorcee w/o kids, I don't have these things, and am finding school *easier* than it was when I was 21... I have way better study skills and because I work smarter and have life experience, I don't have to work half as hard. I will be working part-time, but so do lots of 20something students.

So the only reason I can see it would be harder, is if you have spouse, full time job, kids, et cetera.

Hi there,
The distractions (finances, family etc.) make this whole process a bit more difficult but not impossible, for most non-traditional students. Since you don't have them, I guess the process will be much easier for you. Count yourself fortunate and keep plugging forward.

While the process is not geared toward anyone with "life demands", it does not have to be and should not be torture for anyone with a family and financial demands. Compromise and cooperation with your SO, family and co-workers and get everyone behind you and make the process quite enjoyable.

I had a good experience and I hope others can do the same.

njbmd 🙂

 

[megawatt]

I agree, at least in terms of the academic work. The thing that is more difficult for me, personally, is that I am entirely responsible for the economics of my education now, whereas in college my parents basically footed the bill. But that just adds motivation to do well - I think I take classes a bit more seriously when I pay for them myself..

btw, where are you in the process? pre-med, post-bac, med school?

Everyone is saying that it's harder for nontrads.

Why is it harder, assuming you don't have kids or a spouse or a full time job? I am assuming these are the reasons it would be harder.

At 31 and being a soon-to-be-divorcee w/o kids, I don't have these things, and am finding school *easier* than it was when I was 21... I have way better study skills and because I work smarter and have life experience, I don't have to work half as hard. I will be working part-time, but so do lots of 20something students.

So the only reason I can see it would be harder, is if you have spouse, full time job, kids, et cetera.

 

[thirdunity]

I agree, at least in terms of the academic work. The thing that is more difficult for me, personally, is that I am entirely responsible for the economics of my education now, whereas in college my parents basically footed the bill. But that just adds motivation to do well - I think I take classes a bit more seriously when I pay for them myself..
btw, where are you in the process? pre-med, post-bac, med school?

In my case, my parents were on the one hand never able to pay for my education, yet they still made too much money for me to get student aid. So I didn't really go back to school seriously (beyond a class here, a class there) until after 24.

I'm still pre-med. I am a community college student, transferring to Davis in about a year. Meanwhile I am also completing my phlebotomy and EMT-B certifications. I am a career changer, although since I was in the "dot-com" world, I haven't really had to explain to anyone why it's time for a new career.

I find the school process much easier to deal with now at 31 than I did even two years ago; I credit this to the fact that I have more emotional/psychological tools in the box. When I have to put in hard work, or do something annoying, or deal with a jerk of a teacher, I am able to get through it and not take it personally. Even in my late twenties, I would get frustrated and drop the class.

 

[Law2Doc]

Everyone is saying that it's harder for nontrads.

Why is it harder, assuming you don't have kids or a spouse or a full time job? I am assuming these are the reasons it would be harder.

At 31 and being a soon-to-be-divorcee w/o kids, I don't have these things, and am finding school *easier* than it was when I was 21... I have way better study skills and because I work smarter and have life experience, I don't have to work half as hard. I will be working part-time, but so do lots of 20something students.

So the only reason I can see it would be harder, is if you have spouse, full time job, kids, et cetera.

I found the application process a bit harder in that the adcoms expected you as a nontrad to be much better thought out in terms of questions like why medicine, why are you making the change, what specialty do you want to go into, do you have any sort a support system in place, do you really know what you are getting into, etc. -- the kind of stuff you could probably gloss over if coming straight from undergrad. You are also probably expected to have done more, given that you have lived a longer life -- so someone coming out of undergrad might be okay with a few volunteer positions, but someone who is eg. ten years removed will perhaps be expected to bring to the table more or better experiences. (That is presumably how the older candidate adds diversity). There are likely schools and interviewers out there with their own biases about what's an appropriate age to start medical school (could cut either way), but generally this will not be observable to the applicant.
BTW, I wouldn't expect to "have to work half as hard" in med school -- and it may not be feasible to hold down a part time job (once in med school) and still do well (very few if any of your classmates will be working, regardless of their age)...
Good luck.

 

[efex101]

I agree with the above post...don't assume you will have it easier than your colleagues in medical school...it will be difficult to say the least and much more so than undergrad. There are two totally different things undergrad vs med, and folks always think they "know" what medical school will be like (including myself) but you have no clue trust me. There is no way for any med student to explain what it is because it is like talking to walls...until you get there you will not know. Also, never assume that you will be able to work during medical school...many folks ask this question and it is so very individual...it depends on how fast you learn, how smart you are, etc...and NO you cannot compare the smartness from undergrad to how smart or how well you will do in medical school. Now ALL your peers are excellent and top notch whereas in undergrad there is a variety of folks, here in medical school ALL are super brilliant hence some will be at the top/middle/bottom. Wait until you get there then you will know...

 

[MeowMix]

One of the hardest things about med school for me: loss of status.

I came from a professional position and had a lot of expertise in my field. No one at med school is interested in my knowledge of how teaching might be improved. No one wants suggestions on how the administration might function more effectively. No one at med school is interested in my knowledge of anything. It is deeply frustrating to be enrolled in a dysfunctional, ineffective, and entrenched system, when you can see simple ways to improve your condition immediately. Add to that, I call my PhD faculty members "Doctor": I am older, I also have a PhD in science, and they never call me Doctor. In discussions, I have found very few faculty members who treat me as if I know anything relevant. In short, I am treated much the same as a 20-year-old.

I never thought that any of this would be an issue (it never was before), but it has turned out to be very disorienting; a senior faculty member has told me that this is common for older students.

Re: having better study skills, better knowledge of self, etc.. Yeah, that helps you excel in undergrad classes and prereqs. When you get to med school, you will find a lot of people with crappy study skills and incredible knowledge retention. In an environment that's mostly about memorization, your classmates with true photographic memory will do very well (we have several in our class). We have several more who can simply read through the notes from each professor several times, and then take the exam. We have kids who can party all week, pull an all-nighter, and do well. We had one guy who got 100% in anatomy: perfect score on every exam. Like efex says, you are in there with some very brilliant people. Even in a P/F grading system, you still have to meet the standards for the pass, and they are setting the bar pretty high.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Good conversation.

I think for me being a Non Trad is a double edged sword. In my case i feel im have an edge just because i actually know what i want. Im not the pimply 20 something who just decided to goto med school since it sounded cool. Im actually dedicated. I think for us non trads we just want it more or we wouldnt go through all the extra hassle to get here. That kind of determination and motivation is what gives us an edge.

On the down side there are many issues which have been mentioned here, money, responsibility, respect etc. I have to agree with meowmix, respect is a major concern of mine as well. It is difficult to come from to top of one profession and into another. Also, there is somewhat of an adversarial relationship between physicians and nurses in general. I often wonder how that will be once i start.

 

[efex101]

You know,,, most of the students in my medical school are not there because it sounds cool...they are actually very dedicated actuallya the are MORE dedicated than myself when I was their age ( I was busy partying having fun) and I think that the mentality that we are older hence we want it more is nonsense. They also want it more and are willing to sacrifice many things to get there..their road is just as difficult academic wise than ours they still had to go through undergrad/pre-reqs/mcat/volunteering/etc...I am not trying to pick on anyone here but to say that we want it more or that we are more put together is nonsense. I have seen non-trads dumber than a bag of hair pursuing pre-med thinking that he/she deserves it more bc they are "older hence wiser"...my arse! Everyone that gets into medical school worked their gonads off and everyone that made it is dedicated. I think that doing this while young is plain nuts! these young ones are very dedicated in my eyes to forego many nights of partying and having fun, and not to mention the difficulty in dating when you are obsessed with grades and performance.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I think it is much easier to go from high school to Univ. then to a profession (med school) than it is to have a life, a mortgage, car payment, wife, kids and a profession. I know because i did it the first time and now im on the other side of it.

The difference between non trads and young kids is in experience and knowing what you want. It has been my expeirence with non trads that they do a much better job researching such a life changing event than typical students. Making the decision to put your entire life on hold for a dream is a major thing when you are already established and have responsibility. Its a choice not to party more. There are fewer economic hurdles (no debts), parents who are paying tuition etc.

My opinion is that the AVERAGE non trad has a MUCH harder road than the typical med student. There are 21's who are dumb as rocks trying to get into med shcool as well, thats universal. What makes it harder for non trads and therefore all the more amazing when they make it, are all the life factors they have to overcome that simply dont exist for kids. Sorry if i dont believe "foregoing many nights of fun" compares to a mortgage, kids, a car payment and a economic obligations, but they dont even compare.

You know,,, most of the students in my medical school are not there because it sounds cool...they are actually very dedicated actuallya the are MORE dedicated than myself when I was their age ( I was busy partying having fun) and I think that the mentality that we are older hence we want it more is nonsense. They also want it more and are willing to sacrifice many things to get there..their road is just as difficult academic wise than ours they still had to go through undergrad/pre-reqs/mcat/volunteering/etc...I am not trying to pick on anyone here but to say that we want it more or that we are more put together is nonsense. I have seen non-trads dumber than a bag of hair pursuing pre-med thinking that he/she deserves it more bc they are "older hence wiser"...my arse! Everyone that gets into medical school worked their gonads off and everyone that made it is dedicated. I think that doing this while young is plain nuts! these young ones are very dedicated in my eyes to forego many nights of partying and having fun, and not to mention the difficulty in dating when you are obsessed with grades and performance.

 

[efex101]

Dude read my post...and stop putting words in my mouth. You seem to have somewhat of a chippie on your deltoid...I meant that for some of these kids it *is* a sacrifice as much as for us to pursue this path because they ARE also sacrificing THINGS/EVENTS that are important at THAT age like going out/meeting people/having fun/living life (do you remember those times?) again read my post. Although it may seem trivial to US now, all those issues were not trivial at that time there is a time and a place for certain events in one life. Sure we as non-trads have other things to consider like house/kids/pets/jobs but to say like you posted that the younger folks in medical school think it is just "cool" to become a doctor and have not thought this through is bull**** for most have thought about it a LOT.

" In my case i feel im have an edge just because i actually know what i want. Im not the pimply 20 something who just decided to goto med school since it sounded cool."

Again most of my peers here are not in it bc it sounds cool like you assume.

" Im actually dedicated. I think for us non trads we just want it more or we wouldnt go through all the extra hassle to get here. That kind of determination and motivation is what gives us an edge."

No, this does not give any edge as far as admissions goes, you know what gives edge to non-trads? putting the money were the mouth is..aka good grades/good mcat/volunteering/etc...adcoms do realize that we have other time constraints but guess what? so do some of the younger applicants with tons of other roles like also working FT, leadership roles, etc.

I think that you and I will NEVER see eye to eye per your posts here and OPM.

 

[QofQuimica]

efex and Mike,

I think the two of you are talking past one another here, and both of you are correct from your different perspectives. There is a huge difference between the average pre-med (the vast majority of whom never make it to medical school for various reasons) and the average medical school matriculant. So many people of all ages who call themselves pre-medical students are not truly dedicated to becoming physicians, particularly at large state universities. I think that is what Mike is responding to, because he is a pre-med, and many of his classmates are immature and just like talking the talk. But those students of any age who do have it together and make it to medical school are in a different category: they have a good work ethic (or are good memorizers 😉 ), and they are just as accomplished for their years as their non-trad classmates are. Since efex is a medical student at a top school, these are the select group of younger people that she knows.

My belief is that age, like gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation, is irrelevant (up to a point; I guess it won't be easy for a 60-year-old to get into medical school because s/he'd be old enough to retire by graduation). What predominantly matters is each individual's characteristics, and that's why we apply to medical school as individuals, and not as members of any one of those groups. I don't buy this argument I've seen offered by some posters that we non-trads compete against one another but not against the younger students, because (hopefully!) we all end up in the same place (medical school) together. My age is a part of who I am, but I'm (again hopefully!) being evaluated holistically as QofQuimica, not "only" as a woman, a Jew, or a non-trad.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Yup we will remain at odds, thats what opinions are all about.

To address some of your comments:

You Said Dude read my post...and stop putting words in my mouth.

Not sure where i did that but sorry if it came off that way.

Again most of my peers here are not in it bc it sounds cool like you assume.

We have just had some different experience. I have asked a number of pre- med students & med students who come through while im working why they did it and at least 50% said one of 3 things 1) Money 2) parental Expectations 3) Seemed like a cool job

No, this does not give any edge as far as admissions goes, you know what gives edge to non-trads? putting the money were the mouth is..aka good grades/good mcat/volunteering/etc...adcoms do realize that we have other time constraints but guess what? so do some of the younger applicants with tons of other roles like also working FT, leadership roles, etc.

Wow, never said it gave anyone an edge in admissions, just in med school itself now whos putting words in peoples mouth? Moreover, i think it really depends on the school your looking to attend as to if your a "better fit" as a non trad or a new student.

I think that you and I will NEVER see eye to eye per your posts here and OPM.

Thats OK with me, you dont have to.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

too true 🙂

efex and Mike,

I think the two of you are talking past one another here, and both of you are correct from your different perspectives. There is a huge difference between the average pre-med (the vast majority of whom never make it to medical school for various reasons) and the average medical school matriculant. So many people of all ages who call themselves pre-medical students are not truly dedicated to becoming physicians, particularly at large state universities. I think that is what Mike is responding to, because he is a pre-med, and many of his classmates are immature and just like talking the talk. But those students of any age who do have it together and make it to medical school are in a different category: they have a good work ethic (or are good memorizers 😉 ), and they are just as accomplished for their years as their non-trad classmates are. Since efex is a medical student at a top school, these are the select group of younger people that she knows.

My belief is that age, like gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation, is irrelevant (up to a point; I guess it won't be easy for a 60-year-old to get into medical school because s/he'd be old enough to retire by graduation). What predominantly matters is each individual's characteristics, and that's why we apply to medical school as individuals, and not as members of any one of those groups. I don't buy this argument I've seen offered by some posters that we non-trads compete against one another but not against the younger students, because (hopefully!) we all end up in the same place (medical school) together. My age is a part of who I am, but I'm (again hopefully!) being evaluated holistically as QofQuimica, not "only" as a woman, a Jew, or a non-trad.

 

[efex101]

I hope that is what Mike is referring to the pre-med that abounds in undergrad (nontrad and trad) full of caca that will never make it in...but you see I have seen this type of "holier than thou" attitude from other non-trads pre-meds that think they are more centered/focus/better/more mature but believe me once you get IN this quickly dissapears when you see the quality of ALL applicants that were accepted.

 

[unfrozencaveman]

I actually dont think you guys are completely at odds with each other's views.
In my personal experience as a postbacc, and uprooting my career and life has been a major hurdle- and when I was doing my post-bacc classes I looked around and saw a lot of YOUNG kids- eventhough I really wasn't that much older than they were- having a career definitely changes you.

At the same time, busting my hump as a postbacc gave me a HUGE appreciation for those people that dedicate their undergrad to being premed. "Being premed" has consumed my life for the past three years- I worked pretty hard in college, but nothing like that. And thinking what I would have had to give up as an undergrad really sucks- and there is no way someone undedicated would even bother with it all. Honestly I think I took the easy way out, and managed to get the best of both.

Still, as someone older, I am naturally convinced I will be better at everything than everyone else. What's the fun in being a non-trad if you can't be totally crotchety?

 

[unfrozencaveman]

Sorry- in the process of posting that, I see a ton of replies went up, and now mine is totally useless and somewhat lame and frankly, not crotchety enough. And also has major grammatical problems. Ignore me.

 

[efex101]

Well it *is* okay to "think" that hey I am older and wiser *but* it is when this shines throught that it is a complete turn off..See, most of our colleagues and those in charge of US will be these YOUNGER folk...so regardless of your age and how awesome you think you are ...when your chief resident is in charge of your learning you better not come off this way....it will be difficult for some non-trads to accept that the person in charge of them is half their age.

 

[ockhamsRzr]

Sorry, but I gotta go with flaming Mike McKinnon on this one (hey, put off Trinity for a year and I'll join you!).

It does absolutely kill me when I read how kids in their early twenties are griping about med school because "all their other friends are out partying" and they have to study. Worse is is when the 26 year old considers him/herself a non-trad and how they whine about having to take classes and put their "lives on hold."

Please!!!!! Try being a mortgage holder, a parent, a spouse, a landlord, a primary wage-earner, a successful professional, and STILL needing to sit in lab until 9pm 4 nights a week AFTER working all day. Try not seeing your kids for more than 30 minutes a day (and at that you're begging for another 15 minutes of sleep) every week day. Going out with friends?..please, I barely remember my wife and partner for the past 14 years even sleeps next to me. Yet me and just about every real career-changing non-trad deals with this. And of course, we still need to study on the weekends and get A's just like the rest of the wanks in lecture who whine about having to get up at 9am and not going away on spring break.

To think that the dedication for one who has to deal with all of that in order to pursue their goals is the same as the deication that a 23 year old with none of that baggage needs to maintain is so unbelievably naive that it is essentially incomprehensible...blood from the proverbial stone. One thing many of my friends and colleagues in our thirties with families consistently remark is, "remember when life was EASY?"

The problem, at its source, is a temporal one. With certain realities of life you simply CANNOT understand them until you have enough time served on the planet and you live through them. You cannot know in your twenties what your thirties will make you realize about yourself. You cannot know what making sacrifices and bearing responsibility is until you have to do it. You cannot know how you will react in situations or make certain choices until you have to act.

The biggest sign of youth is thinking that this is not true: that you can know all that which is unknowable. Well, not youth so much, it's more immaturity. Sorry to sound old, but one side of this argument sounded sage and the other sounded, well, young.

Ock

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Sorry, but I gotta go with flaming Mike McKinnon on this one (hey, put off Trinity for a year and I'll join you!).

It does absolutely kill me when I read how kids in their early twenties are griping about med school because "all their other friends are out partying" and they have to study. Worse is is when the 26 year old considers him/herself a non-trad and how they whine about having to take classes and put their "lives on hold."

Please!!!!! Try being a mortgage holder, a parent, a spouse, a landlord, a primary wage-earner, a successful professional, and STILL needing to sit in lab until 9pm 4 nights a week AFTER working all day. Try not seeing your kids for more than 30 minutes a day (and at that you're begging for another 15 minutes of sleep) every week day. Going out with friends?..please, I barely remember my wife and partner for the past 14 years even sleeps next to me. Yet me and just about every real career-changing non-trad deals with this. And of course, we still need to study on the weekends and get A's just like the rest of the wanks in lecture who whine about having to get up at 9am and not going away on spring break.

To think that the dedication for one who has to deal with all of that in order to pursue their goals is the same as the deication that a 23 year old with none of that baggage needs to maintain is so unbelievably naive that it is essentially incomprehensible...blood from the proverbial stone. One thing many of my friends and colleagues in our thirties with families consistently remark is, "remember when life was EASY?"

The problem, at its source, is a temporal one. With certain realities of life you simply CANNOT understand them until you have enough time served on the planet and you live through them. You cannot know in your twenties what your thirties will make you realize about yourself. You cannot know what making sacrifices and bearing responsibility is until you have to do it. You cannot know how you will react in situations or make certain choices until you have to act.

The biggest sign of youth is thinking that this is not true: that you can know all that which is unknowable. Well, not youth so much, it's more immaturity. Sorry to sound old, but one side of this argument sounded sage and the other sounded, well, young.

Ock

Naw yer not flaming me, we are on the same side of this argument 🙂

For a bit there i was wondering if i was the only non-trad who seemed to think that things are MUCH harder for us...our edge lies in our experiences.

 

[efex101]

Hey nobody here is saying that non-trads have it easier or harder but to say that most young folks that get in have never had hardship or difficult times is what irks...I am by no way young I turn 40 next year so I do know what it is to plow through this..but not ALL non-trads have mortgage/family/jobs just like not all trads are just "going" to school on their parents $$$. All I was trying to say is that the road is difficult for ALL involved...and we cannot use our non-trad status as look at me I *am* trying harder so hence I deserve it more...Nobody told us to wait until we were 40 to pursue this goal, we chose it this way for whatever reason and we have to deal with things as they come. There seems to be a pervasive sense that just because we are older and more seasoned it is in our right to become physicians because we are working so hard towards this goal...well ALL (that make it) have worked hard and to say that my path is more deserving bc I am older and hence had other duties is kind of wrong...

 

[ockhamsRzr]

Naw yer not flaming me, we are on the same side of this argument 🙂

For a bit there i was wondering if i was the only non-trad who seemed to think that things are MUCH harder for us...our edge lies in our experiences.

Ack! Mike I meant "flaming" as an adjective (your avatar)! Not flaming, the verb!

No, I agree with you!

Efex, I dig your points and I agree that age DOES NOT equal entitlement. I remember well paying my own way through u-grad 12 years ago and living with a bunch of drunk scumbags (oh, wait a minute I WAS a drunk scumbag), but even with all the adversity I thought I had then, it was as breeze compared with what I have to endure as a 35 year old dad and husband trudging my way to med school.

On the other hand, I have a great wife, some real estate investments, two sweet baby boys and so many of those BIG questions that can sort of haunt people in their twenties (what will my life be like!?) are no longer questions--they're answers. Alas, now I seek the professional fullfiullment that I did not get in my first career (broadcast and technology producer who was radically overpaid for ten years but nonetheless unfulfilled).

Ock

 

[efex101]

That is it exactly! it depends on how you look at things..sure this IS hard but at least we also have a family that loves us no matter what and I come home all stressed out and they put things in perspective..that is ONE huge advantage of being non-trad..we have at least "that" figured out and done. OTOH it can also be difficult with rasing kids and whatnot and going to medical school..so it all depends on how you look at it. We all struggle no matter what age.

 

[thirdunity]

You are also probably expected to have done more, given that you have lived a longer life -- so someone coming out of undergrad might be okay with a few volunteer positions, but someone who is eg. ten years removed will perhaps be expected to bring to the table more or better experiences.

This is actually something I'm extremely concerned about. I am concerned that I will be expected to have already been a fairly accomplished person by my age (a worry many non-premed 31 year olds have anyway).

I am *not* an accomplished person in any kind of tangible way. I dropped out of school around 15; after leaving home, I moved back in with my parents a few times, wasn't good at holding jobs, and just generally could never "get it together". I don't dreally have anything to show for my life, just a string of things I never finished, and a lot of drifting around being bohemian and trying to find myself. I can give you a whole long list of things I've *almost* been...

Switching careers from computers/graphics to health care, actually, was my big accomplishment. I wasn't able to make any kind of life for myself in my old profession, and of course the fact that I hated it didn't help matters.

I've made big strides - overcoming a lot of lifelong setbacks due to anxiety, attention deficit, and depression - but they are not the tangible kind. I overcame a math block and got tutoring. I learned study skills. I left a marriage that wasn't any good, and developed normal social skills, after a life of being "that weird kid". I got my driver's license - at a rather later age than most people. I was out of work for a few years when I retrained as a phlebotomist, but I expect I'll do a lot better now than I did in previous work.

My accomplishments are the kind of accomplishments of course that will help me live as an adjusted adult, but not the type that might get me into medical school. I may have somehow saved myself, but I didn't find Jesus, I didn't slave away as a waitress trying to support three kids, I didn't save small children in Africa, I didn't put in ten years of hard work at one job. I'm back in school going after my *first* degree, in fact.

I was *always* interested strongly in medicine, but didn't think about pursuing it seriously because I never thought I could. Like a lot of kids with attention issues, I was always told I was stupid, unruly, etc in school; I just assumed I would never be a doctor. After I started getting tutoring, and learned that I actually COULD get through "high school" math at 30, then I realized perhaps *could* become a doctor.

Now I can stand on my own two feet, and when people say "well who's your support system?" I can say that I've finally learned to take care of myself. I learned a lot of life lessons. For example, nearly all my work (in my twenties) was chosen because these were things that seemed easy; but I always got intensely bored the moment I learned the job. I learned that "easy" is a lousy reason to choose a career. I need constant movement and challenge (which is why I was a contractor, not a permanent employee anywhere), but didn't realize that until after about ten years of a very bad track record of employment. Things have to constantly be happening around me at all times, or I just start daydreaming. At office jobs, I go full-on into Walter Middy escapist mode. This is, of course, why I am right now taking classes to become an EMT.

But, "being able to live on your own and take care of yourself as a grownup" isn't seen as a big accomplishment by the average person. It's just something I should've been doing anyway, not the kind of thing that looks shiny on the med school apps.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

That is it exactly! it depends on how you look at things..sure this IS hard but at least we also have a family that loves us no matter what and I come home all stressed out and they put things in perspective..that is ONE huge advantage of being non-trad..we have at least "that" figured out and done. OTOH it can also be difficult with rasing kids and whatnot and going to medical school..so it all depends on how you look at it. We all struggle no matter what age.

Efex101

The more i read your posts here the more i agree with you. I think we were just looking at it from 2 different ways. yaaahhh we agree!

 

[humuhumu]

One factor that makes med school harder for many nontrads is having a brain that may be a little flabby from disuse. Obviously we use our brains on the job to varying degrees, but it's nothing like med school. Students who go straight from college to med school are at least somewhat used to the drill; they just need to crank it up a notch or two.

Also, older students tend to have less physical stamina than younger students -- on average it's probably harder to pull an all-nighter at 33 than at 23. And studies do show that brain function tends to decline with age, although I think the effect is negligible (at least in the population we're discussing here) if you have good health, a good attitude, and exercise your body and mind regularly.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

This is actually something I'm extremely concerned about. I am concerned that I will be expected to have already been a fairly accomplished person by my age (a worry many non-premed 31 year olds have anyway).

I am *not* an accomplished person in any kind of tangible way. I dropped out of school around 15; after leaving home, I moved back in with my parents a few times, wasn't good at holding jobs, and just generally could never "get it together". I don't dreally have anything to show for my life, just a string of things I never finished, and a lot of drifting around being bohemian and trying to find myself. I can give you a whole long list of things I've *almost* been...

Switching careers from computers/graphics to health care, actually, was my big accomplishment. I wasn't able to make any kind of life for myself in my old profession, and of course the fact that I hated it didn't help matters.

I've made big strides - overcoming a lot of lifelong setbacks due to anxiety, attention deficit, and depression - but they are not the tangible kind. I overcame a math block and got tutoring. I learned study skills. I left a marriage that wasn't any good, and developed normal social skills, after a life of being "that weird kid". I got my driver's license - at a rather later age than most people. I was out of work for a few years when I retrained as a phlebotomist, but I expect I'll do a lot better now than I did in previous work.

My accomplishments are the kind of accomplishments of course that will help me live as an adjusted adult, but not the type that might get me into medical school. I may have somehow saved myself, but I didn't find Jesus, I didn't slave away as a waitress trying to support three kids, I didn't save small children in Africa, I didn't put in ten years of hard work at one job. I'm back in school going after my *first* degree, in fact.

I was *always* interested strongly in medicine, but didn't think about pursuing it seriously because I never thought I could. Like a lot of kids with attention issues, I was always told I was stupid, unruly, etc in school; I just assumed I would never be a doctor. After I started getting tutoring, and learned that I actually COULD get through "high school" math at 30, then I realized perhaps *could* become a doctor.

Now I can stand on my own two feet, and when people say "well who's your support system?" I can say that I've finally learned to take care of myself. I learned a lot of life lessons. For example, nearly all my work (in my twenties) was chosen because these were things that seemed easy; but I always got intensely bored the moment I learned the job. I learned that "easy" is a lousy reason to choose a career. I need constant movement and challenge (which is why I was a contractor, not a permanent employee anywhere), but didn't realize that until after about ten years of a very bad track record of employment. Things have to constantly be happening around me at all times, or I just start daydreaming. At office jobs, I go full-on into Walter Middy escapist mode. This is, of course, why I am right now taking classes to become an EMT.

But, "being able to live on your own and take care of yourself as a grownup" isn't seen as a big accomplishment by the average person. It's just something I should've been doing anyway, not the kind of thing that looks shiny on the med school apps.

Well first off congrats for deciding on what you want to do amke making the effort!

I believe you have a long road ahead of you but i also believe you will be admitted or not based on the pre reqs, MCAT and personal statement. From my perspective you have an excellent explanation in an interview written right here and certainly some makings for a personal statement.

Work hand and it can happen. The hardest part for me was making the decision to DO IT. Sounds like you have been making that same decision for some time and now your ready.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I'm sitting out on the ledge on this one.

On one hand, information is retained so much easier, and I'm a much better student now than I ever was. I've been very diligent in my studies and that makes the academic part easier (at least so far). Based on my previous experiences and studies, I know what is important for exams and what to dismiss, and it's served me well.

The hard part is trying to juggle work and personal responsibilities with school and to find the time to study diligently. I don't have small children that require an enormous amount of time, but my work is with small children (0-3), and THAT requires an enormous amount of time (continuing ed, patient preparation, collaboration with other therapists, meetings) outside of my direct contact time. And personally, trying to plan this wedding (which is turning out to be life-sucking with my mother in charge) and to give enough love and support to my fiance so he doesn't kick me to the curb is hard to manage.

So, for me there are positive and negative aspects of being non-trad, but all-in-all, I see myself as a much better applicant doing it this way than if I had pursued it as an undergrad. I was wayyyyyy to immature then, and never really had a grasp on what the job of being a pre-med and then a med student and then an MD was all about. Going back as a non-trad has taken the stars out of my eyes so I can see myself in all aspects of medicine, not just the romanticized ones.

Even if you don't have a glorious story as a non-trad, you are still wiser the traditional students. By dropping out of high school, having kids at a really early age, being a wanderer, or whatever you think your flaw is, we all have one thing in common - we've all learned from it and let it guide us into realizing what our dream is. "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger", right?

We all have our dreams and goals, and right now my goal is to survive Wal-Mart. I have to stop rambling and get the grocery shopping done. If any of you ever need a pep talk, you can PM me for a more private conversation. I'm pretty good at telling it how it is, but can always find the silver lining as well 🙂

lol

awesome reply!

 

[efex101]

Well hell, I guess I will have to eat my words Mike he he..I guess we do agree on some things...to thirdunity..you do not need to save a village in Africa, or invent the new drug for HIV, to get into medical school so do not worry that you have "nothing" to offer. You will never know what lies ahead until you actually go for it...now this said, (and this goes for nobody here just thoughts) not all folks who apply will get in that is life and who knows why this happens, and not all folks who want to become physicians will actually get there. For some it it is lack of the academic factor (I think most folks that do not get in is probably due to this in the long run) due to very poor GPA (recent and past), or a very subpar MCAT. The truth of the matter is that you do need to be able to "pass" medical school and the boards hence so much emphasis on these two components of the application. Non-trads can usually pull themselves up from their bootstraps and get this taken care of, so that is ONE big thing in our favor...although if you look at aamc stats I think that non-trads tend for the majority to score lower then their younger counterparts on the MCAT...why the heck I am writing about this? no clue. Just sick of studying for an exam tomorrow...life sucks right now. We just covered ALL fungi/parasites in three days and the exam is tomorrow...wth?

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Ack! Mike I meant "flaming" as an adjective (your avatar)! Not flaming, the verb!

No, I agree with you!

Efex, I dig your points and I agree that age DOES NOT equal entitlement. I remember well paying my own way through u-grad 12 years ago and living with a bunch of drunk scumbags (oh, wait a minute I WAS a drunk scumbag), but even with all the adversity I thought I had then, it was as breeze compared with what I have to endure as a 35 year old dad and husband trudging my way to med school.

On the other hand, I have a great wife, some real estate investments, two sweet baby boys and so many of those BIG questions that can sort of haunt people in their twenties (what will my life be like!?) are no longer questions--they're answers. Alas, now I seek the professional fullfiullment that I did not get in my first career (broadcast and technology producer who was radically overpaid for ten years but nonetheless unfulfilled).

Ock

heheheh

i forgot about my flamin head avatar. Gotta love that one, wish i could say it was my idea but then how would i explain being so dumb as to put a flaming bag on my head?

😉

 

[peabos]

i have spent one year in a medical intensive care unit as a new graduate staff nurse and have witnessed various medical students and interns being socialized into the role of a physician. i see a fulfilliment among them not present in nursing or any other discipline. i turn 25 this year and decided if i want this for myself, now is the time i should make the sacrifice.

i was in contact with one medical school and they told me that the adcom will take into consideration what i have accomplished within my profession. one year is not very much. therefore i have been looking for part time work. i was unaware of all the biases against already established health professionals (particularly nurses) wanting to enter medicine. this is very discouraging. because i am going to incur $20,000 in loans to complete my premed requirements in addition to $35,000 already incurred from my nursing degree. this much loans without even having been accepted to a school. am i in way over my head?

 

[mamadoc]

One factor that makes med school harder for many nontrads is having a brain that may be a little flabby from disuse. Obviously we use our brains on the job to varying degrees, but it's nothing like med school. Students who go straight from college to med school are at least somewhat used to the drill; they just need to crank it up a notch or two.

Also, older students tend to have less physical stamina than younger students -- on average it's probably harder to pull an all-nighter at 33 than at 23. And studies do show that brain function tends to decline with age, although I think the effect is negligible (at least in the population we're discussing here) if you have good health, a good attitude, and exercise your body and mind regularly.

Just curious, humu, how old are you?

I ask because I'm a PGY-2, age 49, and around these parts there's not too many folk that "outrank" me.... dunno where you're getting the anecdotal information about less stamina but to be honest, I don't see it so much. By age 33 I'd pulled a whole mess o' all-nighters with sick kids, so when I did it again in med school and as an intern, yeah, it blew, but I honestly never felt like I was feeling it any worse than my 26 y/o comrades. We ALL looked like crap after a long call night.

OTOH I'm afraid I agree with you that my brain is NOT as flexible as it was when I was younger. I find it harder to retain more things and I sometimes feel distinctly slower than my colleagues. I'll never know WHY since in addition to my decrepitude as one almost eligible for AARP, I've got MS and I think some of my thinking circuits are a little slow for that reason.

But all y'all who aren't there yet, don't fret about older meaning you won't keep up. You're pretty likely to be okay, although I definitely agree that you'd better try and get to the gym.

 

[peabos]

hey mamadoc, i was curious if i could ask you if you had any previous health professionals in your class. if yes, did they have a substantial amt of experience? what are your thoughts on completing premed requirements while working part time? this will lengthen the amt of time it takes to complete my premed requirements. thanks so much.

Just curious, humu, how old are you?

I ask because I'm a PGY-2, age 49, and around these parts there's not too many folk that "outrank" me.... dunno where you're getting the anecdotal information about less stamina but to be honest, I don't see it so much. By age 33 I'd pulled a whole mess o' all-nighters with sick kids, so when I did it again in med school and as an intern, yeah, it blew, but I honestly never felt like I was feeling it any worse than my 26 y/o comrades. We ALL looked like crap after a long call night.

OTOH I'm afraid I agree with you that my brain is NOT as flexible as it was when I was younger. I find it harder to retain more things and I sometimes feel distinctly slower than my colleagues. I'll never know WHY since in addition to my decrepitude as one almost eligible for AARP, I've got MS and I think some of my thinking circuits are a little slow for that reason.

But all y'all who aren't there yet, don't fret about older meaning you won't keep up. You're pretty likely to be okay, although I definitely agree that you'd better try and get to the gym.

 

[Scottish Chap]

One of the hardest things about med school for me: loss of status.

I came from a professional position and had a lot of expertise in my field. No one at med school is interested in my knowledge of how teaching might be improved. No one wants suggestions on how the administration might function more effectively. No one at med school is interested in my knowledge of anything. It is deeply frustrating to be enrolled in a dysfunctional, ineffective, and entrenched system, when you can see simple ways to improve your condition immediately. Add to that, I call my PhD faculty members "Doctor": I am older, I also have a PhD in science, and they never call me Doctor. In discussions, I have found very few faculty members who treat me as if I know anything relevant. In short, I am treated much the same as a 20-year-old.

I never thought that any of this would be an issue (it never was before), but it has turned out to be very disorienting; a senior faculty member has told me that this is common for older students.

Re: having better study skills, better knowledge of self, etc.. Yeah, that helps you excel in undergrad classes and prereqs. When you get to med school, you will find a lot of people with crappy study skills and incredible knowledge retention. In an environment that's mostly about memorization, your classmates with true photographic memory will do very well (we have several in our class). We have several more who can simply read through the notes from each professor several times, and then take the exam. We have kids who can party all week, pull an all-nighter, and do well. We had one guy who got 100% in anatomy: perfect score on every exam. Like efex says, you are in there with some very brilliant people. Even in a P/F grading system, you still have to meet the standards for the pass, and they are setting the bar pretty high.

I'm quite troubled by your post and I feel bad for you. Why would you want people to call you doctor in medical school and why should people call you doctor in medical school? That sounds like a fast way to make enemies to me. I, too, have a Ph.D. and was respected in my previous career but Ph.D. is only a credential. In fact, I used to teach medical residents at a top medical school. However, when I made the transition into medicine, I was under no illusion and I knew I was starting at the 'bottom of the pile'. I'm here to learn and I've kept very quiet about my background. I want to learn clinical medicine so I'll learn it their way and make the appropriate changes when I'm qualified to do so. I feel nothing other than greatly privileged for this wonderful opportunity. I am there to be taught so what I did before med school is a moot point. Good luck. I hope it gets better for you….

 

[Law2Doc]

One factor that makes med school harder for many nontrads is having a brain that may be a little flabby from disuse. Obviously we use our brains on the job to varying degrees, but it's nothing like med school. Students who go straight from college to med school are at least somewhat used to the drill; they just need to crank it up a notch or two.

Also, older students tend to have less physical stamina than younger students -- on average it's probably harder to pull an all-nighter at 33 than at 23. And studies do show that brain function tends to decline with age, although I think the effect is negligible (at least in the population we're discussing here) if you have good health, a good attitude, and exercise your body and mind regularly.

I agree it will take nontrads who aren't coming right from postbacs a while to ramp up into study mode. But not sure I totally agree about the stamina point. Probably depends how much older we are talking. Older people hopefully have picked up some time management skills that will make them less likely to need to pull all nighters, but more importantly, from what I've heard and personally observed, older people simply need less sleep.
(At any rate, you can perhaps improve your stamina a bit by healthier living -- gym stuff, cleaner eating, giving up smoking, etc.)

 

[ockhamsRzr]

I'm 35 and I can tell you a few things about physical and academic stamina. Physically, while things can hurt more and take a little longer to heal completely (like a sprained ankle playing hoops in the hood), I am basically the same as I was 10 years ago. In fact in some ways, I'm maybe better because I've a better sense of limits and have become a smarter player/athlete. I still ski/snowboard/play hoops/mtn bike/renovate our house with the same zeal and ability I had in my twenties

However, maybe it's having two baby boys, but it is MUCH harder to pull the all-nighters I could pull a decade ago.

From a strict academic perspective, school is way easier. I was a straight A student then and my first semester back last spring with 4 classes, a lab and an EMT course across town, I was still a straight A student...and honestly I didn't work that hard. If I'm comparing myself now to myself 12 years ago, it was as if I had just generally bcome smarter; I just know more about more stuff and yes, time management was about 1000x improved.

While I do have the distractions of family and a job now, years ago it seems the distraction of youth (partying, chicks, what will I be when I'm older, etc, etc, etc) were MORE of a distraction. Things now seem to fall into place more easily, and when I have to study I just study. In some ways, a decade of work experience has had a beneficial impact on realizing what needs to get done when and what can slide--an insight I definitely did not have when I was 22.

FWIW,

Ock

 

[humuhumu]

I agree it will take nontrads who aren't coming right from postbacs a while to ramp up into study mode. But not sure I totally agree about the stamina point. Probably depends how much older we are talking. Older people hopefully have picked up some time management skills that will make them less likely to need to pull all nighters, but more importantly, from what I've heard and personally observed, older people simply need less sleep.
(At any rate, you can perhaps improve your stamina a bit by healthier living -- gym stuff, cleaner eating, giving up smoking, etc.)

Good points. I admit that my assertion about stamina was based on flimsy anecdotal evidence (i.e., hearing people -- all older than me -- talk about how they can't pull all-nighters like they used to). But for me stamina isn't really an issue -- like Ock, I'm in my mid-thirties and honestly believe that my health and energy levels are as high as they've ever been. That's not entirely due to good luck -- I have an almost obsessively healthy lifestyle and a young-at-heart attitude. People often guess that I'm twenty-something.

I'm not sure about my sleep requirements. I do OK on 7 hrs/night, and come to think of it, that is less than I used to sleep in college. But I also take care of myself a little better these days.

 

[ockhamsRzr]

Good points. I admit that my assertion about stamina was based on flimsy anecdotal evidence (i.e., hearing people -- all older than me -- talk about how they can't pull all-nighters like they used to). But for me stamina isn't really an issue -- like Ock, I'm in my mid-thirties and honestly believe that my health and energy levels are as high as they've ever been. That's not entirely due to good luck -- I have an almost obsessively healthy lifestyle and a young-at-heart attitude. People often guess that I'm twenty-something.

I'm not sure about my sleep requirements. I do OK on 7 hrs/night, and come to think of it, that is less than I used to sleep in college. But I also take care of myself a little better these days.

Totally! A lot has to do with being young at heart and eating well. I have some friends who at 35 you'd guess are in their mid-forties (mostly due to hating their jobs, feeling trapped and drinking too much beer..mmm...beer). I also have a WAY better diet now as opposed to college daze when a M&M cookie and a coke was breakfast, spicy fries and two cups of coffee was lunch and a steak and cheese and ****load of beers was dinner. Now, like a retiree, it's oatmeal and fruit smoothee in the morning (eggs twice a week), lunch is all goodness and dinner we cook so it's always yummy and good for us. Plus 5 fruits and veggies a day. Again sorry to sound like a fogey, but if your ass is dragging in your thrities, it's doesn't have to. Like my sage PCP says, "**** in, **** out, and you feel like **** in between."

In jeans and a dirty T-shirt most folks think I'm 25, which has more to do with being an ever-loving smart-ass than anything else. Live happy and you'll be young till you croak. 😉

Ock

 

[NontradICUdoc]

I am going to chime in one note here. There is one advantage certain non-trads have over the younger med student straing out of college. And when I mean "certain non-trads", I do not mean the person who took two years off to work and then go to school. I mean the person that has been out in the big bad world for a while, has etablished themselves in a career, maybe even started a family.

The ONLY advantage that non trads have is life experience. We may already know what it is like to juggle a career, mortgages, family obligations, etc. The patients may take us more seriously because we are older and they may feel a little more comfortable talking to us about certain things. And we have the maturity that comes with age. And this is it. It does not make us better, or give us an advantage when it comes to admissions or even studying.

-nuff sed.

 

[ms1finally]

Sorry, but I gotta go with flaming Mike McKinnon on this one (hey, put off Trinity for a year and I'll join you!).

It does absolutely kill me when I read how kids in their early twenties are griping about med school because "all their other friends are out partying" and they have to study. Worse is is when the 26 year old considers him/herself a non-trad and how they whine about having to take classes and put their "lives on hold."

Please!!!!! Try being a mortgage holder, a parent, a spouse, a landlord, a primary wage-earner, a successful professional, and STILL needing to sit in lab until 9pm 4 nights a week AFTER working all day. Try not seeing your kids for more than 30 minutes a day (and at that you're begging for another 15 minutes of sleep) every week day. Going out with friends?..please, I barely remember my wife and partner for the past 14 years even sleeps next to me. Yet me and just about every real career-changing non-trad deals with this. And of course, we still need to study on the weekends and get A's just like the rest of the wanks in lecture who whine about having to get up at 9am and not going away on spring break.

To think that the dedication for one who has to deal with all of that in order to pursue their goals is the same as the deication that a 23 year old with none of that baggage needs to maintain is so unbelievably naive that it is essentially incomprehensible...blood from the proverbial stone. One thing many of my friends and colleagues in our thirties with families consistently remark is, "remember when life was EASY?"

The problem, at its source, is a temporal one. With certain realities of life you simply CANNOT understand them until you have enough time served on the planet and you live through them. You cannot know in your twenties what your thirties will make you realize about yourself. You cannot know what making sacrifices and bearing responsibility is until you have to do it. You cannot know how you will react in situations or make certain choices until you have to act.

The biggest sign of youth is thinking that this is not true: that you can know all that which is unknowable. Well, not youth so much, it's more immaturity. Sorry to sound old, but one side of this argument sounded sage and the other sounded, well, young.

Ock

Oh, SHUT UP, PLEASE. Yes, I suppose that it is absolutely impossible that a 24 year-old who was (almost) straight out of college could have a mortgage, a car payment, or have been a primary wage-earner. News flash - there are people who went straight through who have all of those. You try uprooting your entire life away from the support system that you'd worked so hard to develop. See what it's like coming home every night to an empty studio apartment with nothing more than eggs and a can of beer in the fridge because that's what the previous tenant left. You've got it good, buddy. You have a spouse who can work and help pay that mortgage, whereas 100% of my mortgage comes out of my student loan check. You've got a spouse to do the laundry when your stuck studying until all hours, whereas I have to somehow figure out how to do the laundry, go grocery shopping, and take care of the little daily things that someone at least helps you out with.

Bottom line - a lot of the non-trads I'm in school with get to go home to their support systems, to people who love them unconditionally even when they smell like anatomy lab. The rest of us don't get to do that.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Totally! A lot has to do with being young at heart and eating well. I have some friends who at 35 you'd guess are in their mid-forties (mostly due to hating their jobs, feeling trapped and drinking too much beer..mmm...beer). I also have a WAY better diet now as opposed to college daze when a M&M cookie and a coke was breakfast, spicy fries and two cups of coffee was lunch and a steak and cheese and ****load of beers was dinner. Now, like a retiree, it's oatmeal and fruit smoothee in the morning (eggs twice a week), lunch is all goodness and dinner we cook so it's always yummy and good for us. Plus 5 fruits and veggies a day. Again sorry to sound like a fogey, but if your ass is dragging in your thrities, it's doesn't have to. Like my sage PCP says, "**** in, **** out, and you feel like **** in between."

In jeans and a dirty T-shirt most folks think I'm 25, which has more to do with being an ever-loving smart-ass than anything else. Live happy and you'll be young till you croak. 😉

Ock

lol

 

[mamadoc]

Oh, SHUT UP, PLEASE. Yes, I suppose that it is absolutely impossible that a 24 year-old who was (almost) straight out of college could have a mortgage, a car payment, or have been a primary wage-earner. News flash - there are people who went straight through who have all of those. You try uprooting your entire life away from the support system that you'd worked so hard to develop. See what it's like coming home every night to an empty studio apartment with nothing more than eggs and a can of beer in the fridge because that's what the previous tenant left. You've got it good, buddy. You have a spouse who can work and help pay that mortgage, whereas 100% of my mortgage comes out of my student loan check. You've got a spouse to do the laundry when your stuck studying until all hours, whereas I have to somehow figure out how to do the laundry, go grocery shopping, and take care of the little daily things that someone at least helps you out with.

Bottom line - a lot of the non-trads I'm in school with get to go home to their support systems, to people who love them unconditionally even when they smell like anatomy lab. The rest of us don't get to do that.

Well, this pretty much illustrates why I think these "who has it the toughest" threads end up being pissing contests that aren't really very illuminating.

Look, med school is HARD. It was definitely harder for some of my classmates than others - I did have some privileged classmates whose parents were paying the rent and the grocery bills and the car payments and they were much envied. But this "grass is always greener" thing is just stupid. It is hard to be alone and doing this, sure. Absolutely. It's also hard to be doing it when you're in a relationship, or a member of a family. It's just hard, okay? Do we really need to prove who it's THE hardest for? Why?

I gotta say that I think my maturity and life experience have made this whole adventure a lot easier than for my younger classmates. Sure, their life looks easier than mine, from the perspective of my advanced years. But I remember when I was in their shoes - a new college graduate, married, pregnant, starting a new career - and boy was I clueless. All in all, age is better.

Maybe it's because I have adult kids (one of my classmates had been in the same middle school class with my oldest!!) but I just can't subscribe to the hatin' of the "kids." They're doing their best - as are the rest of us. When threads like this devolve into a pity-party about who has the toughest life, well, ya know, it's time for all of us to remember our many blessings. I'm so glad to be a doctor, to be enjoying what I do, and to get a charge out of going to work each day. Very few of my friends experience that in their jobs.

 

[efex101]

Yup, I agree and like I have been saying all along..it is HARD for ALL involved be it trad or non-trad.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

efex

Too true. there is NOTHING easy about it for anyone. Sometimes I wonder how many potentially excellent physicians may be lost due to classes like O chem. Too bad there wasent a better way to select canidates than a standardized test and unrelated classes!

 

[njbmd]

efex

Too true. there is NOTHING easy about it for anyone. Sometimes I wonder how many potentially excellent physicians may be lost due to classes like O chem. Too bad there wasent a better way to select canidates than a standardized test and unrelated classes!

Hi there,
I wouldn't dismiss Organic Chemistry and the MCAT so quickly. You need to show evidence that you can problem-solve and master a curriculum that is very demanding. I (and I happen to be on an an admissions committee) do believe that mastering courses like Organic Chemistry, Physics, Biology and a few others are good learning experiences. The MCAT (love it or hate it) is a measure of problem-solving ability and application of what you have learned or NOT learned.

I experienced all of the pre-med courses and then some. I took the MCAT after careful preparation and put that behind me too. All of this stuff is a process and all of your coursework is steps toward a goal. I, too, greatly enjoy the practice of medicine (surgery) and I enjoyed the process towards getting to my goals. I didn't create the process but I do have some respect for it especially after having gone through it.

Medical school is difficult, demanding and hugely interesting. It has enabled me to have a career that is difficult, demanding and hugely interesting. Attitude has a lot to do with success or failure in the process of becoming a physician and perpetuating an attitude that learning in any form is "unrelated" is a huge mistake. You are going to be studying and learning for the rest of your life as a physician including some courses or subjects that you do not like. Organic chemistry, physics or "insert any class here" is good practice for life-learning if nothing else.


Happy studying!
njbmd 🙂

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hi there,
I wouldn't dismiss Organic Chemistry and the MCAT so quickly. You need to show evidence that you can problem-solve and master a curriculum that is very demanding. I (and I happen to be on an an admissions committee) do believe that mastering courses like Organic Chemistry, Physics, Biology and a few others are good learning experiences. The MCAT (love it or hate it) is a measure of problem-solving ability and application of what you have learned or NOT learned.

I experienced all of the pre-med courses and then some. I took the MCAT after careful preparation and put that behind me too. All of this stuff is a process and all of your coursework is steps toward a goal. I, too, greatly enjoy the practice of medicine (surgery) and I enjoyed the process towards getting to my goals. I didn't create the process but I do have some respect for it especially after having gone through it.

Medical school is difficult, demanding and hugely interesting. It has enabled me to have a career that is difficult, demanding and hugely interesting. Attitude has a lot to do with success or failure in the process of becoming a physician and perpetuating an attitude that learning in any form is "unrelated" is a huge mistake. You are going to be studying and learning for the rest of your life as a physician including some courses or subjects that you do not like. Organic chemistry, physics or "insert any class here" is good practice for life-learning if nothing else.


Happy studying!
njbmd 🙂

Hey

Its interesting to hear you say that. As a lucky individual who has been working in healthcare for quite awhile ive made some good friends. One former UCSD (MD) who was on admissions and 2 (1 DO 1 MD) from Midwestern who say just the opposite, even the admissions fellow at Midwestern mentioned its just "another box to check off". From my perspective these are hoops to jump through and just part of the hard work involved in getting what you want. (nothing worth while is ever easy!)

While i totally agree that any learning is helpful (and i actually enjoy the classes) I doubt that the people out there who are brilliant but not "good test takers" would agree. Standardized tests are known to be flawed often testing more memorization skills than understanding. (a perfect example is not being allowed a calculator on the MCAT exam, what does that prove?)

Though I personally havent had difficulty with testing, i truly feel the process is unfair to those who might be incredible physicians but for the MCAT. A great example is a physician i work with who I have great respect for. He is truly excellent and one of the main reasons i decided to go on to medicine. Anywho, he had a 17 MCAT and i believe a P. He failed O chem 1 retook it (got a C) and made a B on O chem 2. Many would say he dosent have what it takes to make it through med school due to his MCAT scores and his weak performance on the pre reqs. He ended up graduating in the top 10% of his class all 4 years at med school and has become a STELLAR ER physician.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a standardized test is not a good predictor of how good anyone will be at anything. Nor is it even a predictor of how well some know material if they have test anxiety issues. I see this all the time in my PALS, ACLS, ATLS (ATCN) etc classes. People who do excellent on the skills stations, know things in and out but get so nervous taking the test they fail it. Obviously they know the material and when we go over it they are frustrated at their mistake and correct themselves. Certainly, those tests are much easier with less info than an MCAT by a long shot but the idea is the same.

I have already taken BioChem, Microbio, pathophysiology, pharm, physiology, anatomy etc etc. I found these classes easy since they are relevant and i was excited to learn them. However, i dont really see how O chem is a predictor of anything. Sure its a hard class, but am i excited to take it? Nope. Is it truly relevant to medicine? Nope. How many physicians use it post grad? None. So is it relevant? No. Then why is it a pre req? Dont know, im sure there is a reason somewhere. Why not replace it with Biochem? No-one seems to know.

No, I dont have an answer as to what would be a better predictor of aptness (sp) for med school. I just see the flaws in the current setup. However, as you stated, no matter what you do there will always be things (or classes) you dont like. Its just something you have to do.

AH well its a fun topic to think about!

 

[medworm]

So much heat in this fiesty thread!

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Oopps

I hope I didnt come off that way. I just see it from a different angle. 🙂

 

[efex101]

Well, although you may not see ochem as relevant to medicine..the way you have to "learn" ochem and the huge amount of time that it takes to master is *very* relevant to how medical school classes are designed. There has been not *one* biology class that came close to ochem as far as the amount of time and effort to do well in it..alas this is exactly how ALL medical school classes are. Also, medical school is nothing *but* standardized exams and although you may not agree with them there has to be some "measure" of how competent an individual is before we set them lose with real people. Doctors have to think on their feet all the time and have very honed critical thinking skills and this can be measured to some extent via exams. I mean really, you can teach a monkey how to do "procedures" yet we do not pass out the MD degree to them...🙂 So get ready because medical school will be exam after exam after exam and if you do not pass....well you do not get licenced (although this does not happen a lot, it does happen) period. I tell you, when I get sick or my kids get sick I want someone that not only can do procedures but also one that can think and act quick...