Why is it harder for nontrad?

[Mike MacKinnon]

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Well, although you may not see ochem as relevant to medicine..the way you have to "learn" ochem and the huge amount of time that it takes to master is *very* relevant to how medical school classes are designed. There has been not *one* biology class that came close to ochem as far as the amount of time and effort to do well in it..alas this is exactly how ALL medical school classes are. Also, medical school is nothing *but* standardized exams and although you may not agree with them there has to be some "measure" of how competent an individual is before we set them lose with real people. Doctors have to think on their feet all the time and have very honed critical thinking skills and this can be measured to some extent via exams. I mean really, you can teach a monkey how to do "procedures" yet we do not pass out the MD degree to them...🙂 So get ready because medical school will be exam after exam after exam and if you do not pass....well you do not get licenced (although this does not happen a lot, it does happen) period. I tell you, when I get sick or my kids get sick I want someone that not only can do procedures but also one that can think and act quick...

efex

I agree totally. There isnt a better way to do it at all currently. I just feel bad for those excellent physicians who might never be. There is just no other way to do testing, and without testing you have no way to gauge critical thinking or ability! A nessiary evil!

 

[DoctorC++]

Everyone is saying that it's harder for nontrads.

Why is it harder, assuming you don't have kids or a spouse or a full time job? I am assuming these are the reasons it would be harder.

At 31 and being a soon-to-be-divorcee w/o kids, I don't have these things, and am finding school *easier* than it was when I was 21... I have way better study skills and because I work smarter and have life experience, I don't have to work half as hard. I will be working part-time, but so do lots of 20something students.

So the only reason I can see it would be harder, is if you have spouse, full time job, kids, et cetera.

It's not harder for non-traditional students. It's harder for the rest of society to accept that you actually have the (excuse my language) "balls" to take such a risk. A lot of society is not concerned about the well being of others or making a difference in the world. They are concerned about making money and keeping themselves. They say it's hard because they know medicine is a difficult field. It's basically a stupid myth. I find the older students in class are a lot more motivated than the average college student.

 

[QofQuimica]

While i totally agree that any learning is helpful (and i actually enjoy the classes) I doubt that the people out there who are brilliant but not "good test takers" would agree. Standardized tests are known to be flawed often testing more memorization skills than understanding. (a perfect example is not being allowed a calculator on the MCAT exam, what does that prove?)

I can tell you as a long-time MCAT instructor that straight memorization will get you close to nowhere on the MCAT. People who do well on the MCAT are people with good critical thinking skills who can read and solve problems quickly. Students who try to memorize their way through the MCAT tend to end up with average scores or worse. Often, my highest-scoring students are humanities or social science majors, because these students are accustomed to analyzing arguments. (If you don't believe me, *you* can try hashing out a problem with a philosophy or lit major. 😉 ) Incidentally, I don't know why the AAMC chose to not allow calculators on the test, but I can assure you that they are absolutely unnecessary, and would in fact slow you down and thereby make you do worse.

Though I personally havent had difficulty with testing, i truly feel the process is unfair to those who might be incredible physicians but for the MCAT.

True enough. And by the same token, eliminating the MCAT would be unfair to those who do well on it. You can't please everyone. But even those students who have average MCATs can distinguish themselves in other ways, such as with their grades, their activities, and their LORs. Conversely, merely having a good MCAT score does not guarantee anyone a medical school acceptance.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a standardized test is not a good predictor of how good anyone will be at anything.

It is apparently a good predictor of how well people do on the USMLE.

I have already taken BioChem, Microbio, pathophysiology, pharm, physiology, anatomy etc etc. I found these classes easy since they are relevant and i was excited to learn them. However, i dont really see how O chem is a predictor of anything. Sure its a hard class, but am i excited to take it? Nope. Is it truly relevant to medicine? Nope. How many physicians use it post grad? None. So is it relevant? No. Then why is it a pre req? Dont know, im sure there is a reason somewhere. Why not replace it with Biochem? No-one seems to know.

I realize that this is hardly an informed opinion, because you haven't even taken organic yet, and you have no idea whether you'd even like it (which you may yet discover that you do). But I have to object to you saying that it's irrelevant to medicine and dismissing it out of hand. Even the most general clinician is going to take biochem in med school, and organic is the foundation of understanding biochem. Plus, in a field like mine (drug discovery), organic is highly relevant. You'd better hope that *all* the people out there who design, make and test drugs have a good organic background.

Mike, I apologize in advance if I sound condescending. But I really think you should approach your pre-reqs with a more open mind rather than condemning them a priori as useless and merely hoops for you to jump through. You are so early in the process that it may be hard for you to see why the system is set up the way that it is. But I assume you would be willing to agree that the system, while not perfect, works tolerably well, and has arguably produced many of the greatest health care advances and physicians on the planet. It is understandable to me that you'd be curious to learn why things are set up the way they are so that you will know why you have to do the things that the schools ask you to do. But what I don't understand is why you aren't willing to consider that maybe there *is* some method to their madness before you write any or all of the pre-med requirements off as being "irrelevant."

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I can tell you as a long-time MCAT instructor that straight memorization will get you close to nowhere on the MCAT. People who do well on the MCAT are people with good critical thinking skills who can read and solve problems quickly. Students who try to memorize their way through the MCAT tend to end up with average scores or worse. Often, my highest-scoring students are humanities or social science majors, because these students are accustomed to analyzing arguments. (If you don't believe me, *you* can try hashing out a problem with a philosophy or lit major. 😉 ) Incidentally, I don't know why the AAMC chose to not allow calculators on the test, but I can assure you that they are absolutely unnecessary, and would in fact slow you down and thereby make you do worse.



True enough. And by the same token, eliminating the MCAT would be unfair to those who do well on it. You can't please everyone. But even those students who have average MCATs can distinguish themselves in other ways, such as with their grades, their activities, and their LORs. Conversely, merely having a good MCAT score does not guarantee anyone a medical school acceptance.



It is apparently a good predictor of how well people do on the USMLE.



I realize that this is hardly an informed opinion, because you haven't even taken organic yet, and you have no idea whether you'd even like it (which you may yet discover that you do). But I have to object to you saying that it's irrelevant to medicine and dismissing it out of hand. Even the most general clinician is going to take biochem in med school, and organic is the foundation of understanding biochem. Plus, in a field like mine (drug discovery), organic is highly relevant. You'd better hope that *all* the people out there who design, make and test drugs have a good organic background.

Mike, I apologize in advance if I sound condescending. But I really think you should approach your pre-reqs with a more open mind rather than condemning them a priori as useless and merely hoops for you to jump through. You are so early in the process that it may be hard for you to see why the system is set up the way that it is. But I assume you would be willing to agree that the system, while not perfect, works tolerably well, and has arguably produced many of the greatest health care advances and physicians on the planet. It is understandable to me that you'd be curious to learn why things are set up the way they are so that you will know why you have to do the things that the schools ask you to do. But what I don't understand is why you aren't willing to consider that maybe there *is* some method to their madness before you write any or all of the pre-med requirements off as being "irrelevant."

Hey no worries!

This is a discussion which i can learn from. I come to this with alot of preconcieved and common notions. The board here helps me see through some of them and confirm others. It can be difficult starting pre med with alot of experience in medicine as well as alot of physician friends. You get alot of opinion which may or may not be true. In anycase, i wouldnt post this stuff if i didnt want to understand as much as possible and learn from those ahead of me.

I do agree, i may love organic. I personally like school in general so who knows? I totally agree that the system works well as it stands. I would also agree that the people who could be good docs but dont because of the MCAT or O Chem are in the small minority (i just know a few who would fit that description). So over all i feel the system is doing its job the best it can.

I do understand the reasons the system is setup as it is. I just wonder how much of it is related to tradition rather than best way to educate. I guess a good example of this is yale med school. It arguably is in the top 5 med schools in the USA yet exams are optional and instead use a thesis which is a much better eval tool of critical thinking and knowledge. They have a ton of free time and less pressure to perform yet still high GPA still excellent physicians. Of course they still have same pre reqs and MCAT for admissions. I am not fighting not to do these classes or the MCAT as any change that might occur will be long after im through. I find that the best way to understand process and create change is question the establishment. Just cause a bunch of top scholars think the world is flat dosent mean they are right!

I also really enjoy the discussion and i believe it gives me more insight into the process and how people percieve it. I think you will agree that most post grad physicians will tell anyone who will listen that the MCAT and all the pre med classes are worthless in the real world or med school for that matter. Ive been hearing it for years from co-workers. So if its a misconception, its certainly a common one amongst post grad physicians well into their careers aside from pre meds.

This is an great discussion!

 

[efex101]

beware! i have buddies at Yale and studying for the usmle was a bear bc of their multiple pbl and not "having" to take exams...the grass is NOT always greener. There is a reason why the system is as is, sure there is always room for improvement but to do well in an exam you just have to study and guess what? take exams similar to such an exam..hence to do well on the mcat you take "mock" mcats...

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

I agree. Plus, a thesis is not the best indicator of a well-rounded physician. It's a good indicator if someone is knowledgeable in a specialty and can conduct an experiment regarding that specialty. People go to medical school to learn medicine. Every medical school has similar curriculum content regulated. To measure how well students have mastered the material from all the classes, they should take exams. Maybe some do better with more frequent exams, maybe some do better with less frequent exams. Regardless, the best way to measure how well a student has mastered the material from their academia is to take exams in their courses, and then overall exams (hence USMLEs).

As someone who has been through graduate education to practice in my field, I don't think my B.S. or the national exam I had to take was worthless in the real world. It served to build up fundamental concepts and to help me learn critical thinking as well as how to view, process, and interpret large volumes of information. Required pre-med courses, such as organic chem are very necessary. Our body is organic, and the chemical reactions and processes that occur are understood much better through organic chemistry (I happen to be taking O-chem now). I hear pre-meds all the time complain that the upper-level requirements aren't fair, but in reality, these are the weed-out courses. If you can't handle these courses and do well on the MCAT, then you probably shouldn't be a physician. Same for med school classes. If you search for the easy way out of things (e.g. opting not to take exams) it will catch up to you, and probably at the most inopportune time.

points well taken.

With all the opinion about O chem I wonder then why it is in my 10 years working with physicians they all thought it was a waste of time and served no purpose in their education or day to day work? I can honesty say none of them, not one, thought it was useful for anything but weeding people out. (ive been asking lately as well)

I know there are some people who are well into med school here, as well as a few residents, why do you think practicing physicians dont share your opinions about O chem? I dont have the med school experience to talk about it from an informed perspective, i can only repeat what I have been told in discussions.

 

[efex101]

I think that many practicing physicians "forget" why organic chem and physics may be relevant...they are way too far removed from the whole proccess for one. Also there "has" to be some way to remove the girs from the women and the boys from the men a weeding out so to speak. You have to be able to deal with a course such as organic to even come CLOSE to experiencing what medical school is like and it is worse. This class like I posted elsewhere is the ONLY class that came close to the intense preparation and dedication that many medical school classes require. I think that there is NO EASY way into this process and many folks seem to be looking for shortcuts and ways to avoid things...well, we ALL that are in medical school had to go and jump through the various hoops so you will too. Regardless of how stupid/silly you think this process is THERE is a reason. Just like in the military we thought all the bull **** formations and following orders was bull****...we found out real quick that during combat you just follow orders period without questioning too much hence the bull**** we had to endure during basic training. Again, there are reasons for most things and anything that is costly time wise and effort wise will be worth it. If medicine was an easier field to get into EVERYONE would do it! but it is difficult and it takes a ton of perseverance that only those committed will muster.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Hi Mike,

Yeah, I know doctors who didn't care for orgo, but on the other hand I have known several over the past 20 years who really enjoyed orgo, and even did research with their professors. (My mother went to med school when I was 10). There are other future MDs on this board who enjoy orgo, such as Q of Quimica (well, her name gives it away too!). So saying that doctors don't think orgo was relevant is all in who you ask. Like I said, I know dozens who got excited talking to me about it when I was a kid wanting to know everything about med school.

If you look at the larger picture, there has to be a way for adcoms to evaluate candidates. The MCAT alone is bad becuase there are really smart and good candidates that do poorly on standardized tests, but well in classroom work. However, adcoms would be foolish to judge candidacy by looking at classes such as English or History where those that put as much study effort in as Organic would surely get an A.

Hard science courses are the way to evaluate a candidate coupled with a standardized test. If someone does well in hard classes but not so well on the MCAT, then the adcoms know this person has the potential to still do well overall. If a person bombs the hard science and the MCAT, then the adcoms can see that the person has lower potential.

It's not fair for everyone, but it is fair for the majorities' sake. So, despite the fact that organic chemistry is the essence of how our body operates at the atomic level, I also feel it's a great class to level the playing field.

That said, I hope I do well this semester!

nicely put

I agree, and while its unfortunate that some may not make it due to simply being bad test takers, I dont see another way to do it. Moreover, if O chem is a good example of med school level work then it IS important if for no other reason than to prepare the canidate.

Good points and good discussion! I feel like im getting alot out of it.

 

[QofQuimica]

Our body is organic, and the chemical reactions and processes that occur are understood much better through organic chemistry (I happen to be taking O-chem now).

This sentence struck me in particular, because my experience in college was that organic was, no contest, THE best class I took all four years, and I was the kind of student that loved ALL of my classes. Here's what happened: As a first-year student, I took biology and physics (I started out as a math major, so physics was a logical choice for me to start with for the pre-reqs.) There is some overlap between the two (like, when the bio prof told us that cell membranes function like capacitors, I actually knew what he was talking about!), but not much. I took gen chem my second year. Lots of titrations, stoichiometry, metals...not that exciting. Then, in my third year, I took organic, and it was like a complete epiphany for me. I felt like I could finally understand how the other pre-req sciences were related to one another (and to medicine), and it was absolutely fascinating. I basically took a full schedule of chemistry courses my last year of college, even though I had never been all that excited about chemistry during the entire first two years I was there. And as you already know, I also went to graduate school in chemistry.

Hopefully without making myself sound like a complete dork ( 😛 ), I got so excited about organic not only because "our body is organic, and the chemical reactions and processes that occur are understood much better through organic chemistry." The connection is so much deeper than that, because all of life literally *is* organic chemistry, and without understanding organic chemistry, you cannot hope to understand life. We experience our lives, of course, on a macro scale; it's hard to relegate our consciousness to mere molecules. But somehow, those molecules that comprise each of us make us who we are, and they work together in complex ways that we barely understand, even if we were to spend a thousand lifetimes studying organic chemistry and its affiliated fields. That is both humbling to recognize, and awesome to ponder.

 

[MeowMix]

I'm quite troubled by your post and I feel bad for you. Why would you want people to call you doctor in medical school and why should people call you doctor in medical school? That sounds like a fast way to make enemies to me. I, too, have a Ph.D. and was respected in my previous career but Ph.D. is only a credential. In fact, I used to teach medical residents at a top medical school. However, when I made the transition into medicine, I was under no illusion and I knew I was starting at the 'bottom of the pile'. I'm here to learn and I've kept very quiet about my background. I want to learn clinical medicine so I'll learn it their way and make the appropriate changes when I'm qualified to do so. I feel nothing other than greatly privileged for this wonderful opportunity. I am there to be taught so what I did before med school is a moot point. Good luck. I hope it gets better for you….

Don't be troubled for me, please. I don't feel bad for myself at all. I never ever wanted to be called doctor before, and it never mattered. I still don't want to be called doctor. I don't advertise the credential. I just want to be taken seriously.

My point was this: med school can turn everything upside down, including one's perception of oneself and what is important in life. I really did not think that status was a big deal to me. It was a humbling and difficult experience to find that regardless of my expertise, no one was interested in my opinion, because my status was too low for my voice to count. I am proud of my knowledge and experience, and I wish that I could contribute in that way, instead of being ignored.

 

[mamadoc]

Ask me if I used organic chemistry while seeing patients yesterday and the glib answer is no, of course not. But when I think about it, stuff I learned in organic chemistry forms part of the foundation of the knowledge I'm using to practice every day. It's unconscious at this point but that doesn't mean I don't call on it. No, I'm not having conversations with people about S1 and S2 reactions and esters vs. alcohols, so in that sense of course I'm not using it. But as already pointed out, carbon-based chemistry becomes part of your foundation for understanding biochemistry, which becomes part of your foundation for understanding physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology and other stuff that you ARE conscious of using every day in practice. So it's only in the narrowest sense that any of us in practice could say we're "not using o-chem."

 

[girlsporty]

This sentence struck me in particular, because my experience in college was that organic was, no contest, THE best class I took all four years, and I was the kind of student that loved ALL of my classes. Here's what happened: As a first-year student, I took biology and physics (I started out as a math major, so physics was a logical choice for me to start with for the pre-reqs.) There is some overlap between the two (like, when the bio prof told us that cell membranes function like capacitors, I actually knew what he was talking about!), but not much. I took gen chem my second year. Lots of titrations, stoichiometry, metals...not that exciting. Then, in my third year, I took organic, and it was like a complete epiphany for me. I felt like I could finally understand how the other pre-req sciences were related to one another (and to medicine), and it was absolutely fascinating. I basically took a full schedule of chemistry courses my last year of college, even though I had never been all that excited about chemistry during the entire first two years I was there. And as you already know, I also went to graduate school in chemistry.

Hopefully without making myself sound like a complete dork ( 😛 ), I got so excited about organic not only because "our body is organic, and the chemical reactions and processes that occur are understood much better through organic chemistry." The connection is so much deeper than that, because all of life literally *is* organic chemistry, and without understanding organic chemistry, you cannot hope to understand life. We experience our lives, of course, on a macro scale; it's hard to relegate our consciousness to mere molecules. But somehow, those molecules that comprise each of us make us who we are, and they work together in complex ways that we barely understand, even if we were to spend a thousand lifetimes studying organic chemistry and its affiliated fields. That is both humbling to recognize, and awesome to ponder.

Wow, Quimica! I remember that moment. It was a blinding flash of insight -- that bio, chem and physics were really all different aspects of the same material. So powerful.

I happened to enjoy organic chemistry. I took it this past summer (after nearly completing an MS in physiology) and was very grateful to be taking it now. Thinking back to myself as an undergrad, I would never have understood it or worked on it in the same way.

As one of those "not really" non-trads (26 y/o), it is perhaps with great naivete' that I relate a survivor's comment: "Everybody has their own worst moment."