Why is Math important?

[ButAtYourBest]

I know this is a ditzy question. But I've never been the type of student that does well learning stuff that doesn't seem immediately relevant. Lots of things interest me, but math is not one of them, even though I'm apparently good at it when pressure is on (I killed the Math section of the SAT). Also, I've never been motivated by good grades alone. My interest in a subject is what drives my success. I probably should have put off math until later when I might have a better appreciation for how it is relevant or important, but I just wanted to get it over with. Can someone share some wise words to help me get motivated by better understanding the importance of math toward the rest of my pre-med curriculum and eventual ambition to become a doctor?

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[BlueElmo]

I know this is a ditzy question. But I've never been the type of student that does well learning stuff that doesn't seem immediately relevant. Lots of things interest me, but math is not one of them, even though I'm apparently good at it when pressure is on (I killed the Math section of the SAT). Also, I've never been motivated by good grades alone. My interest in a subject is what drives my success. I probably should have put off math until later when I might have a better appreciation for how it is relevant or important, but I just wanted to get it over with. Can someone share some wise words to help me get motivated by better understanding the importance of math toward the rest of my pre-med curriculum and eventual ambition to become a doctor?

Motivation? Some schools require a year of college leve math. That was enough motivation for me.

 

[SnarkyMD]

I know this is a ditzy question. But I've never been the type of student that does well learning stuff that doesn't seem immediately relevant. Lots of things interest me, but math is not one of them, even though I'm apparently good at it when pressure is on (I killed the Math section of the SAT). Also, I've never been motivated by good grades alone. My interest in a subject is what drives my success. I probably should have put off math until later when I might have a better appreciation for how it is relevant or important, but I just wanted to get it over with. Can someone share some wise words to help me get motivated by better understanding the importance of math toward the rest of my pre-med curriculum and eventual ambition to become a doctor?

Math is SOOOO necessary to become a doctor. Think about what math, calculus, and algebra encompasses - areas, rates, volumes, etc. Aside from the simple arithmetic and algebra we use, you will need to know calculus concepts to understand the way the heart works, fills, and pumps blood, the way cells move and exchange information, run lots of calculus to see how well someone is breathing. There are some any more things, but these are just those off the top of my head. Believe, me, you will be using math everyday in clinical practice.

 

[Uisa]

Math is SOOOO necessary to become a doctor. Think about what math, calculus, and algebra encompasses - areas, rates, volumes, etc. Aside from the simple arithmetic and algebra we use, you will need to know calculus concepts to understand the way the heart works, fills, and pumps blood, the way cells move and exchange information, run lots of calculus to see how well someone is breathing. There are some any more things, but these are just those off the top of my head. Believe, me, you will be using math everyday in clinical practice.

This is true, but I feel like math, especially higher level math, serves a simpler purpose; to develop your critical thinking. Mathematics word problems require you to apply previous and current math knowledge and to look at problems in different light to eventually come up with a solution. This type of exercise will eventually lead to paradigm breaking (outside the box thinking), which I feel is a necessary skill for a doctor.

 

[Alvarez13]

If your attending asks you how many patients are in the room, you need to be able to see that there are 3 on one side and 4 on the other and add those two numbers together to tell him there are 7 patients. If 1 were to go home, then you'd only have 6 patients to update him on.

You would not be successful in this scenario without math

Honestly though, Uisa (did I pronounce that right?) is dead on. It's about problem solving and critical thinking. When I was doing engineering, we constantly joked about how we would only remember 5% of what we learned and there's no way we'd ever use some of the fluids eqns we came across. It's true, I feel like I hardly remember anything I learned. However, I know how to find the info I need, make assumptions, and apply the science to the problem to go about developing a solution. You can imagine how crucial this line of thinking is in medicine.

 

[BlueElmo]

If your attending asks you how many patients are in the room, you need to be able to see that there are 3 on one side and 4 on the other and add those two numbers together to tell him there are 7 patients. If 1 were to go home, then you'd only have 6 patients to update him on.

Oh man, I took college calculus and I still had trouble figuring out your problem. I thought I'd be left with 5 patients.

Will I never become a doctor?





.

 

[armybound]

Not sure how complex math helps, but the ability to do mental calculations will definitely help. How much of a drug do you order for a 175lb patient if the drug is to be given at 40mcg/kg?

 

[shiftingmirage]

I don't see how one needs calculus, but algebra and stats are necessary. There is actually some physics when it comes to physio and blood movement, blood pH, renal clearance. Also with medicine doses. When ever you read about a clinical trial, there will (almost) always be numbers involved. Hopefully, most the time those numbers are legit, sometimes they aren't. Need math not only when performing a study, but also when ya read about it in NEJM.

 

[BlueElmo]

I don't see how one needs calculus, but algebra and stats are necessary. There is actually some physics when it comes to physio and blood movement, blood pH, renal clearance. Also with medicine doses. When ever you read about a clinical trial, there will (almost) always be numbers involved. Hopefully, most the time those numbers are legit, sometimes they aren't. Need math not only when performing a study, but also when ya read about it in NEJM.

Yeah, and I heard stats helps when trying to read a medical journal.

 

[Chemdude]

Studying math drastically improves your intellectual abilities. After taking many advanced math courses, I've noticed that my analytical thinking and comprehension abilities have greatly improved.

 

[Hastur]

Statistics is definitively important (I read journal abstracts for fun, and they got a lot more comprehensible after I took stats) and higher algebra is important to:

-Understanding statistics
-Understanding chemistry
-Understanding physics

...and all of this stuff is on the MCAT, so...

Yes, it's important - the way that understanding the difference between a half-cup and a tablespoon measure is important for chefs. Taking the analogy further - well, if I wanted to be a chef, I could have the world's best cooking instincts as far as which spices go together and whether to fry or bake or boil, but if I couldn't understand the *quantitative* aspects, I wouldn't even be able to make chocolate chip cookies.

Calculus, on the other hand, isn't even on the required list for some schools.

 

[ksmi117]

This is true, but I feel like math, especially higher level math, serves a simpler purpose; to develop your critical thinking. Mathematics word problems require you to apply previous and current math knowledge and to look at problems in different light to eventually come up with a solution. This type of exercise will eventually lead to paradigm breaking (outside the box thinking), which I feel is a necessary skill for a doctor.

Greetings from a national math conference. This is soooo true. Math really makes you think. I math!

 

[Chemdude]

Greetings from a national math conference. This is soooo true. Math really makes you think. I math!

I had true and false questions on my Linear Algebra exams. I thought they would be the easiest questions, but they required the most thinking. In fact, I think some of them can be used as a study tool for the verbal reasoning section of the MCAT...

Example:
T or F

If T and T' are different linear transformations mapping Rn into Rm, then we have T(ej)=T'(ei) for all standard basis vectors ei for Rn.

The first time I saw this question I said, "WTF, how am I supposed to prove this!!!!!"

 

[ksmi117]

I had true and false questions on my Linear Algebra exams. I thought they would be the easiest questions, but they required the most thinking. In fact, I think some of them can be used as a study tool for the verbal reasoning section of the MCAT...

Example:
T or F

If T and T' are different linear transformations mapping Rn into Rm, then we have T(ej)=T'(ei) for all standard basis vectors ei for Rn.

The first time I saw this question I said, "WTF, how am I supposed to prove this!!!!!"

True and false math questions are a beast. All my true and false tests have been, "State whether this is true or false. If it is true, write out a logical proof. If it is false, provide a counterexample." So it's not even enough to know the answer. You've gotta show why you know the answer. Super frustrating.

 

[RapplixGmed]

Very little of all science or the professions that are built on top of science (investing, engineering, medicine) make any sense without proper mathematical analysis.

To make it more relevant to medicine for you, a ton of physiology is mathematical... everything from cardiac function, to renal function, to muscle function, to bone biomechanics. Remember the action potentials you see for neurons or muscle? In my quantitative physiology class, we constructed mathematical models for them from first principles and knowledge of the ion channels involved. Such a model had amazing predictive value because if you wanted to know if a drug blocked a certain channel, you didn't have to do some handwaving to come up with a prediction, you just punched it into the model and saw what came out. Do you want to know how to build an orthopedic replacement such that it doesn't fail instantly or in 20 years? Well... you'll need to know a lot of deformables and failure theory and also the geometry of the human body.

Oh yeah, everything about ECGs is based off of math and vectors.

 

[armybound]

Very little of all science or the professions that are built on top of science (investing, engineering, medicine) make any sense without proper mathematical analysis.

To make it more relevant to medicine for you, a ton of physiology is mathematical... everything from cardiac function, to renal function, to muscle function, to bone biomechanics. Remember the action potentials you see for neurons or muscle? In my quantitative physiology class, we constructed mathematical models for them from first principles and knowledge of the ion channels involved. Such a model had amazing predictive value because if you wanted to know if a drug blocked a certain channel, you didn't have to do some handwaving to come up with a prediction, you just punched it into the model and saw what came out. Do you want to know how to build an orthopedic replacement such that it doesn't fail instantly or in 20 years? Well... you'll need to know a lot of deformables and failure theory and also the geometry of the human body.

Oh yeah, everything about ECGs is based off of math and vectors.

I'm not sure how those concepts really apply to basic clinical practice, though.

 

[SketchsaurusRex]

we need to know math so we can count all money we're not going to be making as doctors.

 

[Alvarez13]

we need to know math so we can count all money we're not going to be making as doctors.

Holla!

 

[Depakote]

Physiology involves a surprising amount of physics.

You need a good grasp of statistics to be able to understand the literature you're reading as well.

If you can handle the physics and statistics you're covering at the undergrad level, you won't struggle with the med school level applications.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Yup, there's a lot of physics involved in physiology. Which is nice, because it's makes everything so much more conceptual.

I agree with others that math definitely makes you think. I'm about to be a senior in MCB and so far, I've had maybe 2 MCB courses that required me to think: physiology and immunology (which had a ton of interpretation of experimental data). Pretty much all the other classes (ie. genetics, biochem, etc.) were very memorization intensive and as long as you were able to regurgitate the memorized info during the exam, you were guaranteed a great grade.

I loved calculus, physics, most of chemistry, etc. because they stressed conceptual stuff that required you to think rather than just memorize. I thought these classes were a lot more fun, honestly.

 

[bkz]

..."State whether this is true or false. If it is true, write out a logical proof. If it is false, provide a counterexample." So it's not even enough to know the answer. You've gotta show why you know the answer. Super frustrating.

exactly. It is all about the process of learning how to move from assumptions/given to conclusion/answer in an order that makes sense.

One thing that has always bugged me about questions unlike this is that I get points off for 'not showing [your] work', even though I try to write down more than I think is necessary. With proofs you have to make it explicitly clear why you can move from a to b to c, this is absolutely a transferrable skill

 

[Excelsius]

What you really need to know is physics. If you know enough math to understand physics, then you're set. And personally, physics makes you think much more than math. In math, you can often apply cookie cutter techniques to solve problems. In physics you must understand the concepts to see that two very different problems can actually be solved by similar techniques. One of the craziest examples is how you can use the law of thermodynamics and apply it to the law of electromagnetism! Thermo was perhaps the only physics class that I disliked. Then I read a Feynman lecture to make sense of it only to find out that you can use the same concept in electromagnetism, which is a very interesting subject.

As we used to joke in our department, math was discovered by a physicist to serve physics. It has absolutely no use if you can't apply it to physics, economics, or some other subjects.

 

[bkz]

In math, you can often apply cookie cutter techniques to solve problems. In physics you must understand the concepts to see that two very different problems can actually be solved by similar techniques.

As others have said, not so much on tests full of proofs, that requires conceptual thinking because you need to see the answer before you start working out the steps. But like you I also prefer physics

 

[Excelsius]

As others have said, not so much on tests full of proofs, that requires conceptual thinking because you need to see the answer before you start working out the steps. But like you I also prefer physics

You're right, but in most math classes you don't see that many proofs. The main math class that has reasonable amount of proofs is linear algebra, but even according to math majors, that is a "different kind of animal." It's considered a tough course and not many like it. The rest of the math courses are nothing like it.

 

[bkz]

The main math class that has reasonable amount of proofs is linear algebra, but even according to math majors, that is a "different kind of animal." It's considered a tough course and not many like it. The rest of the math courses are nothing like it.

Haha, well I haven't taken the courses past that yet, but from what I've heard analysis is not too different. Maybe people who have can weigh in. Anyway I'm not sure why I'm defending math, but I'm pretty sure *pure* math is rather abstract.

 

[fastboyslim]

What you really need to know is physics. If you know enough math to understand physics, then you're set. And personally, physics makes you think much more than math. In math, you can often apply cookie cutter techniques to solve problems. In physics you must understand the concepts to see that two very different problems can actually be solved by similar techniques. One of the craziest examples is how you can use the law of thermodynamics and apply it to the law of electromagnetism! Thermo was perhaps the only physics class that I disliked. Then I read a Feynman lecture to make sense of it only to find out that you can use the same concept in electromagnetism, which is a very interesting subject.

As we used to joke in our department, math was discovered by a physicist to serve physics. It has absolutely no use if you can't apply it to physics, economics, or some other subjects.

Yes! Someone else on this website knows what the famous Feynman lectures are! I was under the impression that SDN was filled with bio majors who expect education to be nothing more than lists of things to memorize.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

aside from being a requirement math isn't very important for medical school, calculating an anion gap is about as fancy as it gets

 

[ksmi117]

Haha, well I haven't taken the courses past that yet, but from what I've heard analysis is not too different. Maybe people who have can weigh in. Anyway I'm not sure why I'm defending math, but I'm pretty sure *pure* math is rather abstract.

Pure math is so abstract. It's so weird to think about. There's no way you can use cookie cutter techniques in pure math. There are rarely numbers involved to start with. It's all about understanding how those cookie cutter techniques can be used. Crazy stuff.

 

[ksmi117]

Mathematics is an elegant invention that underpins the basis of almost all major human advancements. The language of mathematics makes physics possible, after all Newton developed his version of calculus to assist in making Newtonian mechanics possible. And since one can generalize that physics leads to a more sophisticated understanding of chemistry, which leads to our modern biological sciences -- math becomes the core of all science. More importantly mathematics allows you to think clearly and logically about problems. It has also been my experience that math majors are able to pick up on many foreign concepts readily because they have been trained to analyze and take apart complex propositions.

 

[Kong Bu]

Math is important because of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-udGE8POcZk

 

[ButAtYourBest]

wow thank you all for the replies. i wasn't expecting people to take me seriously.

i think i will like physics. i am very interested in neuroscience, and i want to learn physics in order to better understand brain imaging techniques.

i have to take pre-calculus. i think i would like calculus better because it seems more applied. i just get discouraged by math because a lot of my classmates seem to be able to "get into it" simply by aiming for a good grade or by making a game out of it. i'm not criticizing them, but it causes me to question myself and if i'm cut out for pre-med. i never really had anyone pushing me to do pre-med, and I was never a 4.0 student, but i have such a strong desire to learn about the human body. and since it's my curiosity driving me, I get really stubborn when I have to reconcile the standardized curriculum and requirements with the natural chronology of my curiosity.

i still have to take most of my pre-med requirements, so I decided to take math to prepare for things like physics and chemistry. but I think i won't fully appreciate how it is relevant UNTIL i take those other courses. it's a tough dilemma: do I take math in advance to prepare for the science courses i'm looking forward to? or do i take it later, after i've acquired a better appreciation for the material and its relevance?

 

[ArkansasRanger]

Past basic arithmetic and rudimentary algebra like 2x = 4, what is "x" math isn't important...at least not to most people.

 

[CluelessAsian]

How is math important? Well, it lets you think critically.. Also, you'll have a basic idea of how drugs' half life work.. how long it stays in the body and when does it peak.. If the drug stays in the body for this long but the effect is only positive if the dosage is between this and this, how long will the effect last.. things like that.

 

[chutzpah]

Math isn't important at all. Godel already proved that all systems were inherently flawed.

 

[boostedct9a]

Studying math drastically improves your intellectual abilities. After taking many advanced math courses, I've noticed that my analytical thinking and comprehension abilities have greatly improved.

This is very true. Eventually you start using math in places that you never would have before. For example, my wife is currently a cake decorator. She was making a 4 layer wedding cake that was lined with 1/2in Gumballs and didn't know how many to use. So i took the simple formula C = Pi x D and figured out within 10 gumballs. So you could save people money with math also (at least with me) math fits in so well with science it helps me out with my science classes as well.

 

[zayka]

Advanced math like calculus is extremely important in physics, and physics is important in physiology (big). Also applicable in many calculations for pharmacology, chemistry, biochem. Also very important in advanced statistics, such as for research.

Take calculus in your first year, along with your basics that everyone takes. Def take it before stats. Otherwise, if it's not a pre-req for a course then you shouldn't gain too much advantage by taking calculus before or after.

 

[PinkIvy08]

College-level math is not important at all in becoming a physician. Period.

The lowest math offered at my alma mater was Calculus (w/ a lab) and everyone had to take math. You know what? I did NOT need math beyond what I took in high school - not for stats/biostats, not for "calculus-based" physics, not for chemistry, not for physio, nada! I view it much like I view the necessity of Orgo...

 

[SketchsaurusRex]

Past basic arithmetic and rudimentary algebra like 2x = 4, what is "x" math isn't important...at least not to most people.

I totally know this! x=2 HOLLA!

 

[Charles English]

I totally know this! x=2 HOLLA!

hey sketch, is that a derby name?

(disregard if you have no idea what i'm talking about)

 

[mcgyver]

man, how can you say math is not important. like Galileo said, math is the language of nature. mathematical training allows you to understand all natural phenomena much better. even if you don't actually need calculus as a doctor, you get a much better understanding of the body: blood pressure, endocrine, acid/base balance, temperature, neural... the list goes on.

i don't think any of us could appreciate the human body as much as we do now if had not had math beyond simple arithmetic.

 

[Quadratic]

Not sure how complex math helps, but the ability to do mental calculations will definitely help. How much of a drug do you order for a 175lb patient if the drug is to be given at 40mcg/kg?

When you say "complex", are you referring to complex numbers, the complex number line, complex analysis, etc?

 

[Quadratic]

College-level math is not important at all in becoming a physician. Period.

The lowest math offered at my alma mater was Calculus (w/ a lab) and everyone had to take math. You know what? I did NOT need math beyond what I took in high school - not for stats/biostats, not for "calculus-based" physics, not for chemistry, not for physio, nada! I view it much like I view the necessity of Orgo...

You didn't need it. Of course, one who is a chemistry major taking P Chem and wandering what the hell a partial derivative is might disagree with your philosophy on the relevance of "college-level" math.