Why is PBL hated so much?

[Lawpy]

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I would simply offer caution in extrapolating what happens at the elite institutions to everyone else.

That's true but I was hoping there would be some uniformity in preclinical education across all US MD schools. LCME provides some standardization but there's still a lot of variability. A consequence of this is it makes transfers nearly impossible.

 

[AKtheGuy]

How do students at top schools, especially at Yale with its hands free Yale System, do so well on classes, dominate Step 1, excel clinical years and have astounding residency match success? Why can't we just extend whatever those schools are doing right for all schools?

Probably coz they're super smart compared to an avg medical student to begin with. It's much harder to get into Yale than most other med schools

 

[Goro]

Probably coz they're super smart compared to an avg medical student to begin with. It's much harder to get into Yale than most other med schools

This. You could probably deliver the curriculum to the students in Korean and they'll still do well.

 

[neoexile]

Honestly, I think PBL/TBL is inefficient, but that's just me. I think what you are supposed to learn in medical school is how to internalize material quickly and efficiently REGARDLESS of whatever situation you are in. Medicine is stressful and there is often not enough time to think things over.

It's much better to internalize the material using whatever method you like (Pathoma, FA, Sketchy, or my favorite, Anki) and then show up to the TBL already having learned as much as you can. I feel like medical school is like going to the gym. There are things that are available and resources that are there, but that may not work for everyone. To the extent you want to "workout" and get strong is up to you mostly. If TBL works, then use TBL. If it doesn't, find another resource and use that efficiently.

But always remember to learn things sooner rather than later.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

IRREGARDLESS

Seriously?

 

[neoexile]

Seriously?

I was told on the internet that grammEr doesn't matter 😛

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I was told on the internet that grammEr doesn't matter 😛

 

[Goro]

Honestly, I think PBL/TBL is inefficient, but that's just me. I think what you are supposed to learn in medical school is how to internalize material quickly and efficiently REGARDLESS of whatever situation you are in. Medicine is stressful and there is often not enough time to think things over.

It's much better to internalize the material using whatever method you like (Pathoma, FA, Sketchy, or my favorite, Anki) and then show up to the TBL already having learned as much as you can. I feel like medical school is like going to the gym. There are things that are available and resources that are there, but that may not work for everyone. To the extent you want to "workout" and get strong is up to you mostly. If TBL works, then use TBL. If it doesn't, find another resource and use that efficiently.

But always remember to learn things sooner rather than later.

You too??? I can't stand TBL

 

[Oso]

I cried myself to sleep every Tuesday and Thursday for two years because of PBL.

Such an incredible waste of time. After a while not even the snacks could make up for it.




And I ****ing love snacks.

 

[Lawpy]

Probably coz they're super smart compared to an avg medical student to begin with. It's much harder to get into Yale than most other med schools

This. You could probably deliver the curriculum to the students in Korean and they'll still do well.

I’m not sure why this thread got bumped, but student quality is also the reason why top schools can have unranked pass/fail preclinical curricula without a problem. There are apparently some non-top schools that supposedly have unranked pass/fail but I have no idea how that works and what are the matching outcomes at those schools.

It turns out that preclinical grades and ranks also help top students better stand out from the rest and match into competitive places. Other things like mandatory PBL and TBL vary too much on a school specific manner and may have something to do with student quality.

 

[getdown]

PBL and TBL is essentially how you learn in real life, at least in my field. You talk and have a discussion with some of the more senior Anesthesiologists and go over the different considerations with the regards to the patient's pathology, drug choices, anticipated surgical complications, etc. As much as one would like to learn everything from a book or lecture, nothing beats experience and someone seeing first hand the **** that can go down and how they handled it.

That's not to say I liked PBL during med school. I hated it and thought it was a waste of time.

 

[SouthernGent]

I'm spending two hours in a room learning nothing when I could be studying and actually learning on my own. Nice idea in theory, but highly inefficient and impractical for medical school.

 

[dr_kateb]

Is this just small group inquiry? A lot of my UG classes are pushing this hard. Last year my biol 1 class had this, and now my organic 2 lecture and biol 2 lecture all had us take a survey which then puts us to groups “scientifically.” In biol 1 I overslept on the day the groups first met, I got to lecture 30 minutes late so my group did not talk to me for basically the entire semester. Organic 2 I got out into a group with people that didn’t really like me from organic 1. Luckily the professor didn’t make the students stick to their groups so I abandoned it after a couple weeks. Biol 2 group discussion is just a massive waste of time. The questions are mostly simple definitions too that require a simple google search. The class is so watered down that I can learn a months worth of material in 2-3 days. Just teach it normally I say.

 

[Med Ed]

Is this just small group inquiry?

No. I medical education the terms PBL and TBL describe fairly specific approaches.

 

[buckoh24]

I feel like PIL/PBL is generally seen as a waste of time by most people in terms of content. It seems like a kind of forced study session and I would rather have that than have mandatory lectures. I think its actually good for collaborating with others and navigating the team environment that physicians are a part of.

 

[AKtheGuy]

This. You could probably deliver the curriculum to the students in Korean and they'll still do well.

I'd think many of students in Yale med would be asians, so I believe that 😀

But yea I agree. In the end it all boils sown to sitting at one place for hours and studying on our own

 

[el_duderino]

Here's a suggestion for all schools to employ: get rid of random preclinical education methods and just allow students to watch lectures from home. Lecture attendance is optional. TBL, PBL, whatever odd scheme is eliminated. And preclinical grades are unranked pass/fail.

I think the above could be useful. @Goro always says med students are adult learners so they can teach themselves what they need to know and ask professors for help wherever needed. Doing various preclinical education schemes seems pointless when Step 1 and clinical education matter so much more.

That's what my school does. Other than the mandatory sessions for clinical skills and whatnot, core curriculum lectures are optional.

It seems you can have a problem making sure people keep up, but the administration is good at identifying those students and connecting with them.