Why is RVU an abomination by SDN?

[nicolemsm]

IF there is any ranking, it is:
Top: Schools opened prior to 1980
Mid: Schools opened 1980 - 2000ish
Low: Schools opened after 2000ish
RVU

So now rankings are based upon age of a school? I can think of more than a few exceptions to this system.... Hmm right off the top of my head AZCOM is a relatively new program (1995 start) that produces outstanding grads and matches...

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[group_theory]

IF there is any ranking, it is:
Top: Schools opened prior to 1980
Mid: Schools opened 1980 - 2000ish
Low: Schools opened after 2000ish
RVU

.

My personal perspective - I agree in general with the above ranking. Older DO schools have graduated many classes whose alumni have gone on to ACGME residencies, fellowships, and a decent amount are even on faculty at these places. Usually older schools have better established OPTI (because they have been around longer and have made connections with area hospitals) and area program directors (and academic faculties) have worked with either their students or residents (or their graduates) to know the caliber of training that occurs at these schools.

I can't even keep up with all these new DO schools that are opening, so how would you expect an ACGME PD to keep up with these new DO schools. I've participated in the rank-list meeting for my residency program (and now I'm also involve with my fellowship program rank-list meeting as well) - and I've had committee members/faculty members say "what's VCOM?" (remember, it is still a relatively new school) and "I can't keep track of all these new schools". Last year, I heard someone ask "isn't that the new for-profit school? (in reference to LMU/DCOM). Fair or not, new DO schools will be lumped together with "RVU" and be associated with for-profit, whether they are for-profit or not. These academic faculty members are busy with clinical services, research, hospital committees, resident education, etc. They are not going to keep track of all the new DO schools from no-name schools (it's hard enough to keep track of all the new MD schools from known universities). They certainly don't get "The DO" or "JAOA" to know about the new DO schools affliated with an unknown university/college (or worse, a stand alone school)

Excellent board scores are great - but we have received lots of applicants with excellent board scores so it's actually hard to distinguish yourself with just great board scores. The mean USMLE Step 1 score for US seniors who match in Internal Medicine (2011 NRMP Match) is 226, and the mean USMLE Step 2 score is 237 (source: NRMP Charting Outcomes in The Match, 2011:)

The number of applicants have been going up every year which is not unexpected since MD schools have been increasing class sizes, new MD schools have been opening, and new DO schools/branches have been opening. As a result, we're more selective in whom we choose to interview (I'm not involve in this process).

Currently, DO students invited to interviews may be asked about their clinical rotations and experiences because, unfortunately, some DO schools are known for crappy rotations (and a dearth of inpatient experience) - something that sadly a lot of pre-DOs don't ask about here on SDN

Fortunately my residency program (and the hospital in general) is DO friendly, and even here, you will be at a disadvantage if you are from a new DO school. And like it or not, the term "for-profit" education is associated with DeVry, University of Phoenix, ITT Tech, Strayer, etc. In healthcare, for-profit is associated with HCA or Tenet. And when it comes to academic medicine, for-profit is an anathema. Now you can debate whether not-for-profit is truly not-for-profit, but the bottom line remains, you need them (academic medicine/academic programs) more than they need you.

 

[azide10]

The issue is that right now, pre-meds don't know if it's going to be a good school or not so why take that risk? If you're good enough to get into RVU with the stats they post, you can get into any number of other schools who've been established longer and have shown to be good schools. That's why RVU gets the hate. Why risk your medical education and tons of debt for a school that hasn't proven itself yet? Do yourself a favor and let some other chump find out if its a good school or not.

Stepped away for the weekend but came back to say this is well said and a much better way of putting it than I did. A lot of you tried to pick apart what I said instead of addressing it in full which I believe perpetuates ignorance but I can't change the way anyone other than myself thinks so I'll leave it at that.

Regardless I wish the best of luck to all RVU students. Seems like everyone is against them for reasons that they are unable to substantiate. Would just like everyone to remember that they are accredited by the same organization that accredits the school you may attend, and they will be held to a standard that (I believe) no other for-profit schools have been held to.

 

[racerwad]

Regardless I wish the best of luck to all RVU students. Seems like everyone is against them for reasons that they are unable to substantiate. Would just like everyone to remember that they are accredited by the same organization that accredits the school you may attend, and they will be held to a standard that (I believe) no other for-profit schools have been held to.

I want to make it clear I am not against RVU's students. They are the victims in the situation. I, and others, are only pointing out the red flags to those of you who are considering RVU as a viable option. And in an ironic twist, I agree with your last statement, but from an alternate perspective-that is, COCA's accreditation of RVU undermines my degree as well as the entire profession of osteopathy. By accrediting RVU, COCA diminishes the legitimacy of all DO schools. Undoubtedly, ignorance is being perpetuated.

 

[Colodostudent]

I want to make it clear I am not against RVU's students. They are the victims in the situation. I, and others, are only pointing out the red flags to those of you who are considering RVU as a viable option. And in an ironic twist, I agree with your last statement, but from an alternate perspective-that is, COCA's accreditation of RVU undermines my degree as well as the entire profession of osteopathy. By accrediting RVU, COCA diminishes the legitimacy of all DO schools. Undoubtedly, ignorance is being perpetuated.

Racerward, I'm so glad you're not holding anything against us students here! So Glad. Lets see, last year our Comlex I pass rate was 97.7% first time takers (and the school requires everyone to take it no later than July with no pre-test that screens who can and cannot take it). So glad your not holding that 97.7% pass rate against us.

This year, the COMLEX I pass rate is well north of 95% first time pass rate (again with everyone required to take it,and no screening exam you need to pass prior to being allowed to take it). Again, I'm so glad you're not holding that against us students.

This year, roughtly 2/3rds of the class took USMLE I (103 students) and passed with a 96+percent pass rate, first time takers. So glad your not holding that against us students.

I'm glad your not holding the Global Medicine honors track against us, where we do rotations in Nepal, Kenya, Honduras, Guatamala, etc., several times a year with our facutly.

I'm so glad your not holding one of the best matches ever for a first time graduation from a brand new school (what was that, 11 in Anesthesia, yea - don't hold that one against us!

I'm so glad you don't hold great rotations against us, with places like Swedish Hospital here in Denver, and their wonderful trauma surgery.

I'm glad you don't hold a mean mcat of 27.4, mean science gpa of 3.62, and mean overall gpa of 3.53 against us. I mean, just because our incoming stats are better thant the national average, don't hold that against us! Please!

How do I know all this stuff? I'm a student ambassador, and it is routinely released by our Dean.

Hey, since you feel sorry for us, make us feel better. Where do you go to school? Show your stats, you know, COMLEX I, USMLE I, your admissions data (by the way, our MCAT scores are all the most recent, RVU does not composite those like some schools, to make them look better).

Yea, thanks for NOT HOLDING great performance, against us!! I'm glad i'm here, and my educational experience is phenomenol!!

 

[DrWily]

Racerward, I'm so glad you're not holding anything against us students here! So Glad. Lets see, last year our Comlex I pass rate was 97.7% first time takers (and the school requires everyone to take it no later than July with no pre-test that screens who can and cannot take it). So glad your not holding that 97.7% pass rate against us.

This year, the COMLEX I pass rate is well north of 95% first time pass rate (again with everyone required to take it,and no screening exam you need to pass prior to being allowed to take it). Again, I'm so glad you're not holding that against us students.

This year, roughtly 2/3rds of the class took USMLE I (103 students) and passed with a 96+percent pass rate, first time takers. So glad your not holding that against us students.

I'm glad your not holding the Global Medicine honors track against us, where we do rotations in Nepal, Kenya, Honduras, Guatamala, etc., several times a year with our facutly.

I'm so glad your not holding one of the best matches ever for a first time graduation from a brand new school (what was that, 11 in Anesthesia, yea - don't hold that one against us!

I'm so glad you don't hold great rotations against us, with places like Swedish Hospital here in Denver, and their wonderful trauma surgery.

I'm glad you don't hold a mean mcat of 27.4, mean science gpa of 3.62, and mean overall gpa of 3.53 against us. I mean, just because our incoming stats are better thant the national average, don't hold that against us! Please!

How do I know all this stuff? I'm a student ambassador, and it is routinely released by our Dean.

Hey, since you feel sorry for us, make us feel better. Where do you go to school? Show your stats, you know, COMLEX I, USMLE I, your admissions data (by the way, our MCAT scores are all the most recent, RVU does not composite those like some schools, to make them look better).

Yea, thanks for NOT HOLDING great performance, against us!! I'm glad i'm here, and my educational experience is phenomenol!!

Tiny little bit mad. I'd be interested in average scores.

 

[abolt18]

Tiny little bit mad. I'd be interested in average scores.

Agreed

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Racerward, I'm so glad you're not holding anything against us students here! So Glad. Lets see, last year our Comlex I pass rate was 97.7% first time takers (and the school requires everyone to take it no later than July with no pre-test that screens who can and cannot take it). So glad your not holding that 97.7% pass rate against us.

This year, the COMLEX I pass rate is well north of 95% first time pass rate (again with everyone required to take it,and no screening exam you need to pass prior to being allowed to take it). Again, I'm so glad you're not holding that against us students.

This year, roughtly 2/3rds of the class took USMLE I (103 students) and passed with a 96+percent pass rate, first time takers. So glad your not holding that against us students.

I'm glad your not holding the Global Medicine honors track against us, where we do rotations in Nepal, Kenya, Honduras, Guatamala, etc., several times a year with our facutly.

I'm so glad your not holding one of the best matches ever for a first time graduation from a brand new school (what was that, 11 in Anesthesia, yea - don't hold that one against us!

I'm so glad you don't hold great rotations against us, with places like Swedish Hospital here in Denver, and their wonderful trauma surgery.

I'm glad you don't hold a mean mcat of 27.4, mean science gpa of 3.62, and mean overall gpa of 3.53 against us. I mean, just because our incoming stats are better thant the national average, don't hold that against us! Please!

How do I know all this stuff? I'm a student ambassador, and it is routinely released by our Dean.

Hey, since you feel sorry for us, make us feel better. Where do you go to school? Show your stats, you know, COMLEX I, USMLE I, your admissions data (by the way, our MCAT scores are all the most recent, RVU does not composite those like some schools, to make them look better).

Yea, thanks for NOT HOLDING great performance, against us!! I'm glad i'm here, and my educational experience is phenomenol!!

Still had a crappy match.

 

[Colodostudent]

Tiny little bit mad. I'd be interested in average scores.

You bet I'm angry, because there is frequently alot of nonsense placed on here by so called experts who really have no idea what they are talking about!

You asked about average (I suspect you really want the "mean" score), OK, from the same information:

Comlex I - 2012 Academic Year: RVU Mean - 536.48 National Mean - 522.7
RVU Standard Deviation: 75.85 National Standard Deviation: 83.5

USMLE I - Means Score for this year - 222

So, yea, Average scores are there! RVUCOM shares those with us.

So, DrWiley, what school are you at, and what are your stats?

 

[cliquesh]

ns

You bet I'm angry, because there is frequently alot of nonsense placed on here by so called experts who really have no idea what they are talking about!

You asked about average (I suspect you really want the "mean" score), OK, from the same information:

Comlex I - 2012 Academic Year: RVU Mean - 536.48 National Mean - 522.7
RVU Standard Deviation: 75.85 National Standard Deviation: 83.5

USMLE I - Means Score for this year - 222

So, yea, Average scores are there! RVUCOM shares those with us.

So, DrWiley, what school are you at, and what are your stats?

All of those.stats are probably on par or, in some cases, higher than most osteopathic medical schools. Unfortunately, you will continue to be discriminated against due to the for profit status. I doubt it will ever change.

This is unrelated, but I feel like bitching. I'm doing an elective at a top 15 academic hospital and it sucks. There is no teaching, there are so many residents and attendings that no one gives a crap about students. Blah!

 

[racerwad]

Racerward, I'm so glad you're not holding anything against us students here! So Glad. Lets see, last year our Comlex I pass rate was 97.7% first time takers (and the school requires everyone to take it no later than July with no pre-test that screens who can and cannot take it). So glad your not holding that 97.7% pass rate against us.

This year, the COMLEX I pass rate is well north of 95% first time pass rate (again with everyone required to take it,and no screening exam you need to pass prior to being allowed to take it). Again, I'm so glad you're not holding that against us students.

This year, roughtly 2/3rds of the class took USMLE I (103 students) and passed with a 96+percent pass rate, first time takers. So glad your not holding that against us students.

I'm glad your not holding the Global Medicine honors track against us, where we do rotations in Nepal, Kenya, Honduras, Guatamala, etc., several times a year with our facutly.

I'm so glad your not holding one of the best matches ever for a first time graduation from a brand new school (what was that, 11 in Anesthesia, yea - don't hold that one against us!

I'm so glad you don't hold great rotations against us, with places like Swedish Hospital here in Denver, and their wonderful trauma surgery.

I'm glad you don't hold a mean mcat of 27.4, mean science gpa of 3.62, and mean overall gpa of 3.53 against us. I mean, just because our incoming stats are better thant the national average, don't hold that against us! Please!

How do I know all this stuff? I'm a student ambassador, and it is routinely released by our Dean.

Hey, since you feel sorry for us, make us feel better. Where do you go to school? Show your stats, you know, COMLEX I, USMLE I, your admissions data (by the way, our MCAT scores are all the most recent, RVU does not composite those like some schools, to make them look better).

Yea, thanks for NOT HOLDING great performance, against us!! I'm glad i'm here, and my educational experience is phenomenol!!

I go to Western and to be honest, I don't know our stats, mainly because I don't care. I'm sure they're available in the public domain if you care. I think you've missed my point, you just seem a little pissed. We both know that you're tired of defending your position and this fatigue is exactly one of the things I would want to avoid. Anyhow, none of the stuff you've listed is that remarkable in contrast to most schools. RVU doesn't use composite data since they don't have enough data. Your strong performance is less a function of the institution and more a reflection of the strength and ability of the people in the class itself. You all would have done well in any school; the only difference is the pedigree of your institution. The same holds true for me, when I get compared to students at other schools. Such is life. At any rate, this is less a debate for students who are currently at RVU and more to address the OP's original question about why RVU isn't a great option.

 

[DrWily]

AZCOM. I also dont know my schools stats specifically. Racerwad hits it perfectly above. As for the effects of the for-profit status long-term, that remains to be seen. Due to this uncertainty, RVU gets hate and pre-meds are steered away.

RVU is like the unwanted red headed stepchild: we're forced to accept you as our own, but we will beat you over the head when we can.


Joking; y so serious?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Serenade, my point is that you are speaking completely ignorantly. Again you ignored mine and anyone else point on that match list argument. You simply ignore it every time you post about it. Period.

You do not know that PDs cared and have zero way of backing that argument up. Period.

Loans got up to 7%? you're right! How did they deal with it?

Stop posting BS. If you have a legitimate argument then post it. I could go on to explain what I said here, but why? you'll ignore it as you have done and continue to do.

So the match list is evidence that the school was not well received by program directors. It is all over the match list. Let me tell you why:

1. There were very, very few allopathic matches. Almost no allopathic PDs wanted anything to do with RVU. Since the majority of DO students apply to the allopathic match, this speaks volumes.

2. There are few specialty matches,
While this could mean most people wanted primary care, it often means people could not match into something better. When we look at the primary care matches, it seems obvious that most people not only couldn't get a good specialty match, they couldnt get a good primary care match.

3. The anesthesia match and EM matchest were mediocre. This is one of the specialty bastions that DOs tend to do very well. There are just a few decent matches in this group. Only one that could even be considered close to good.

4. Very few surgery and surgical subspecialties. Could be personal preference and you would expect more good peds/FM/IM matches. However we don't see these good matches.

5) The IM match is bad. There is no way to hide this one under the rug. There are basically no good specialty matches or surgery matches so you would assume the good candidates went to IM or peds. This is NOT the case. Notice almost all the IM matches are to community programs, most with 350 beds or less (Parkview, Plaza, Verde Valley, Bay Area Medical center and many, many more). Hell, Verde valley has fewer than 100 beds. So does Bay Area medical center. Many IM residencies have more residents than these places have beds. I'm not even sure you can call 72 beds a hospital.

The sheer fact that there aren't many specialty matches and then the IM match is not good leads me to believe that program directors didn't look at RVU grads favorably. And, because these places are all over the west and midwest, it's not as if people wanted to stay near RVU and chose crappy programs to be near family.

6) The peds match isn't good. Again very similar reasons to medicine.

So in the end, you have few specialty matches, few university programs, a bunch of people who didn't match and thus far haven't been able to scramble and a lot of community programs. This is probably the worst match ever posted on SDN.

 

[alijen]

Instatewaiter: You have been bashing RVU since their inception. Why not give it a rest? As Colorado Student pointed out, their numbers exceed the national means - they are doing phenomenal things. They bring in excellent students and provide an outstanding education. Why rain on their parade? Could it be possible that you fear their success? You are a professional and the RVU students are your future colleagues, like it or not. Please be respectful.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

AZCOM. I also dont know my schools stats specifically. Racerwad hits it perfectly above. As for the effects of the for-profit status long-term, that remains to be seen. Due to this uncertainty, RVU gets hate and pre-meds are steered away.

RVU is like the unwanted red headed stepchild: we're forced to accept you as our own, but we will beat you over the head when we can.


Joking; y so serious?

AZCOM's match list, arguably the best one of 2012 for DO's.

 

[DrWily]

AZCOM's match list, arguably the best one of 2012 for DO's.

Boom.

Edit:

Instatewaiter: You have been bashing RVU since their inception. Why not give it a rest? As Colorado Student pointed out, their numbers exceed the national means - they are doing phenomenal things. They bring in excellent students and provide an outstanding education. Why rain on their parade? Could it be possible that you fear their success? You are a professional and the RVU students are your future colleagues, like it or not. Please be respectful.

I like how you didn't refute anything he said and only continued to proclaim excellent numbers while Instatewaiter's post provides much insight into the effect RVU's "tax-status" is having on their ability to match, and match well. If it wasn't for RVU's "tax-status" (and *maybe* the fact that they are a new school), then why would a school with "numbers [that] exceed the national means" match so poorly?

 

[toxicwombat]

So the match list is evidence that the school was not well received by program directors. It is all over the match list. Let me tell you why:

1. There were very, very few allopathic matches. Almost no allopathic PDs wanted anything to do with RVU. Since the majority of DO students apply to the allopathic match, this speaks volumes.

2. There are few specialty matches,
While this could mean most people wanted primary care, it often means people could not match into something better. When we look at the primary care matches, it seems obvious that most people not only couldn't get a good specialty match, they couldnt get a good primary care match.

3. The anesthesia match and EM matchest were mediocre. This is one of the specialty bastions that DOs tend to do very well. There are just a few decent matches in this group. Only one that could even be considered close to good.

4. Very few surgery and surgical subspecialties. Could be personal preference and you would expect more good peds/FM/IM matches. However we don't see these good matches.

5) The IM match is bad. There is no way to hide this one under the rug. There are basically no good specialty matches or surgery matches so you would assume the good candidates went to IM or peds. This is NOT the case. Notice almost all the IM matches are to community programs, most with 350 beds or less (Parkview, Plaza, Verde Valley, Bay Area Medical center and many, many more). Hell, Verde valley has fewer than 100 beds. So does Bay Area medical center. Many IM residencies have more residents than these places have beds. I'm not even sure you can call 72 beds a hospital.

The sheer fact that there aren't many specialty matches and then the IM match is not good leads me to believe that program directors didn't look at RVU grads favorably. And, because these places are all over the west and midwest, it's not as if people wanted to stay near RVU and chose crappy programs to be near family.

6) The peds match isn't good. Again very similar reasons to medicine.

So in the end, you have few specialty matches, few university programs, a bunch of people who didn't match and thus far haven't been able to scramble and a lot of community programs. This is probably the worst match ever posted on SDN.

Brilliant post. Very well said.

 

[oms2]

speaking of the for-profit model, there is an nsu grad in the news - dr. abraham awwad d.o. who blew the whistle on the for-profit giant hca and lost his privileges:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/b...ndfall-for-private-equity.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1009641.ece

 

[toxicwombat]

speaking of the for-profit model, there is an nsu grad in the news - dr. abraham awwad d.o. who blew the whistle on the for-profit giant hca and lost his privileges:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/b...ndfall-for-private-equity.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1009641.ece

Equal parts interesting and disturbing.

Oh a different note, I'm shocked that so many people are considering applying to RVU this cycle. Why?? If you can get into RVU, you have a decent shot at several much-higher-regarded DO institutions. I'm baffled.