Why is this happening when I am shadowing?

[cookiegrub]

So far I have come to notice that almost every physician I shadow hates their job, except for those nearing retirement or already in retirement phase. I went into medicine and still do the shadowing gig to get the sense of where I belong but if I meet one more physician in a field they hate working in I don't know where I will want to go in terms of specialty. I don't come with connections and I get that people whose parents are physicians have a better sense of what is a better specialty to go after but it's not like I am deprived of that knowledge. For example, I know ROADs is a family friendly specialty but so far the derm guys seem to be the only ones happy with their job. But trying to talk with them or even shadow a specialty that remotely seems happy with their life means going through a wall in the sense that they try to place filters and dissuade the average crowd because obviously it's so competitive. So then I go back to square one where I don't know where an average person like me can belong. This also messes up with my motivation towards working so hard for my dream. I should just stop shadowing to prevent this from happening but the thing is that again I don't come with connections and the shadowing offers me to get to know people and take a more active role in my future. Plus if I don't come from a top medical school, this is the only way I can find my niche. Any advice on what I might be doing wrong or is this really how our generation's physicians feel like?

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[Goro]

So far I have come to notice that almost every physician I shadow hates their job, except for those nearing retirement or already in retirement phase. I went into medicine and still do the shadowing gig to get the sense of where I belong but if I meet one more physician in a field they hate working in I don't know where I will want to go in terms of specialty. I don't come with connections and I get that people whose parents are physicians have a better sense of what is a better specialty to go after but it's not like I am deprived of that knowledge. For example, I know ROADs is a family friendly specialty but so far the derm guys seem to be the only ones happy with their job. But trying to talk with them or even shadow a specialty that remotely seems happy with their life means going through a wall in the sense that they try to place filters and dissuade the average crowd because obviously it's so competitive. So then I go back to square one where I don't know where an average person like me can belong. This also messes up with my motivation towards working so hard for my dream. I should just stop shadowing to prevent this from happening but the thing is that again I don't come with connections and the shadowing offers me to get to know people and take a more active role in my future. Plus if I don't come from a top medical school, this is the only way I can find my niche. Any advice on what I might be doing wrong or is this really how our generation's physicians feel like?

Have you asked them why they appear to be unhappy???

My clinical colleagues love what they do.

 

[CJhooper123]

Not gonna lie, a lot of my shadowing experiences have been similar. Some physicians have actually advised me to avoid their specialty (e.g. IM). In the grand scheme of things, it's all about perspective. Sure working as a physician can be difficult (e.g. long hours, weekend call, debt, modern healthcare... etc), but is it really THAT bad? Every job has its pros/cons. I can think of plenty of jobs with MUCH lower pay that don't allow one to practice altruism.

 

[siliso]

There are malcontents in every field. There are medical students who are already malcontents when they show up to orientation and I don’t guess they’ll probably change as life goes on. The happiest doctors I’ve known are primary care docs for poor people and medical specialists in academic/county/VA hospitals. Some of the most miserable in the most prestigious and competitive or lucrative fields. I’ve got my thoughts on why that might be, like if you were looking for prestige, adoration and being filthy rich you might not get what you want and be disappointed. But if you like taking care of sick and suffering people and you have the skill set and opportunity to do it, that’s a goal that can definitely be satisfied. Maybe there are other reasons too. Find some happy doctors or ones that you admire and then shadow them, maybe.

 

[CyrusHabs7695]

grass will always be greener

 

[cookiegrub]

Have you asked them why they appear to be unhappy???

My clinical colleagues love what they do.

I did and by the end of the day it was apparent because of how much they worked. I would say that many of them were workaholics like myself and I guess in the world of medicine you have to be because there is so much liability involved. The problem that many have pointed out is staff shortage despite more and more work piled on. I honestly see this as a systemic issue in big academic institutes. On the other hand, I have come to love the community hospitals because there things just went more at a controlled pace as opposed to working and working till the sunset.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

So far I have come to notice that almost every physician I shadow hates their job, except for those nearing retirement or already in retirement phase. I went into medicine and still do the shadowing gig to get the sense of where I belong but if I meet one more physician in a field they hate working in I don't know where I will want to go in terms of specialty. I don't come with connections and I get that people whose parents are physicians have a better sense of what is a better specialty to go after but it's not like I am deprived of that knowledge. For example, I know ROADs is a family friendly specialty but so far the derm guys seem to be the only ones happy with their job. But trying to talk with them or even shadow a specialty that remotely seems happy with their life means going through a wall in the sense that they try to place filters and dissuade the average crowd because obviously it's so competitive. So then I go back to square one where I don't know where an average person like me can belong. This also messes up with my motivation towards working so hard for my dream. I should just stop shadowing to prevent this from happening but the thing is that again I don't come with connections and the shadowing offers me to get to know people and take a more active role in my future. Plus if I don't come from a top medical school, this is the only way I can find my niche. Any advice on what I might be doing wrong or is this really how our generation's physicians feel like?

You will see what they mean when you get there. Its not as bad as they make it seem, but they are definitely trying to warn you. At the same time most physicians have never had any other job and they have no idea what life is like for everybody else out there (and having prior experience as a nurse I can tell you there are definitely many worse jobs than physician in a hospital). Yes being a doctor is not as good now as it was 20 years ago, which was not as good as it was 40 years ago, but physicians still have it better by and large than many other professions.

But the profession of medicine is getting very hoggy (referring to the pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered). The golden goose is getting killed, but its slow. If you have no connections, there are many worse things you could do with your life other than becoming a physician. There are also a couple better things moneywise IMO (Dentist, MBA at famous school leading to investment banking, learning a trade like AC repair and starting your own business which would probably take less time than medical school etc). But all in all I wouldn't discourage you from pursuing medicine yet, unless it requires 500k+ of loans before residency.

 

[libertyyne]

Happiness comes from within. Some of the happiest physicians I have met have been in the most difficult (hourwise) specialties. Some of the unhappiest in the cushest gigs. Look to something that you enjoy doing and just do it. Who cares if other people are happy or malcontent with their choices.

 

[cookiegrub]

You will see what they mean when you get it. Its not as bad as they make it seem, but they are definitely trying to warn you. At the same time most physicians have never had any other job and they have no idea what life is like for everybody else out there (and having prior experience as a nurse I can tell you there are definitely many worse jobs than physician in a hospital). Yes being a doctor is not as good now as it was 20 years ago, which was not as good as it was 40 years ago, but physicians still have it better by and large than many other professions.

But the profession of medicine is getting very hoggy (referring to the pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered). The golden goose is getting killed, but its slow. If you have no connections, there are many worse things you could do with your life other than becoming a physician. There are also a couple better things moneywise IMO (Dentist, MBA at famous school leading to investment banking, learning a trade like AC repair and starting your own business which would probably take less time than medical school etc). But all in all I wouldn't discourage you from pursuing medicine yet, unless it requires 500k+ of loans before residency.

I love medicine and my problem is I love everything save for a couple specialties I know I wouldn't want to go into. But it is irking me so much that despite my fascination and admiration to treat and get patients off and running, there are so many warning signs when I shadow. I am very clueless as to why these people are unhappy and I just worry about what I can do to prevent that. I have a strong work ethic and a "passionate me" means that I can stay up past my time to ensure patients are feeling well. Sure I can meet the optimistic doctor which I have met a few of (but these people are in uber competitive specialties) but I have become such a pessimist that I will now start questioning why (as in is this just a show for me because I am shadowing you). I appreciate physicians for being real with me and I think what they miss is having a normal work life where they can take care of themselves on the side. Most of those that are unhappy seem to not be able to do that for themselves and that makes me worried.

 

[siliso]

There are people with my same job in same institution who are malcontents. But you don’t have to be in a super competitive specialty to be satisfied or to have work life balance. There are many happy family docs and general internists and endocrinologists and ID, neuro, and whatever else. You have to be doing something satisfying for you in decent working conditions. Some people will work until they’re dead or divorced or both because they can’t get enough of the money,especially if they are procedural specialists, some people choose to have a life. That’s also true in other fields and professions outside medicine. And yes we work hard and can be short on free time but not harder or more than people working 2 jobs at manual labor for 10 bucks an hour.

 

[hallowmann]

You don't have a normal work life as a physician. Even if you don't have call, you are to some degree on call. You don't get the same time off that others get, you don't always get the weekends or holidays, it will be even worse for the better part of a decade between med school and residency, and the weight of the responsibility (something that honestly is difficult to explain until you experience it) is heavy. Add on almost continuous documentation, which is becoming a bigger part of the job, and it can be draining. You need to be aware of this. In residency, questioning my choice (and by that I mean medicine and not my specialty) is an almost daily occurrence, and I'm not alone in that.

That said, I love what I do. I may not love residency, but I love medicine, I love talking to patients, I love figuring out a plan and treating them, and honestly even with all the crap and never-ending documentation, I love the clinic. I've been in other jobs, and while my life was easier, I definitely didn't feel as fulfilled. It's a tough road, and that's the feeling that gets me through, that and the idea that in a few more short years I'll be able to provide for my family better than I've ever been able to.

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

I feel your pain OP. I shadowed a doc that LOVED his job. He was a vascular surgeon and worked ridiculous hours, but he told me that I should consider surgery as a specialty. Meanwhile, his colleagues would tell me EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. “Run while you still can. It isn’t worth it. You are still shadowing? Are you crazy.” Two of them were anathesia bros that seemed to hate their day-to-day life.

I hope I never complain about work hours, because I grew up helping my grandpa on the farm and those hours suck. 6 A.M.- 9 or 10 P.M. and mediocre pay (if you’re lucky)? No thanks. @libertyyne said it best, happiness comes from within.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Have you asked them why they appear to be unhappy???

My clinical colleagues love what they do.

If he/she wants to guarantee not getting a LOR, they should surely ask that

If your school is set up like mine, your clinical faculty probably has part-time clinical duties. I think most doctors out in the field have to contend with burnout. Those physicians in academia tend to be insulated from this, but they get a pay cut compared to the rest

 

[Goro]

If he/she wants to guarantee not getting a LOR, they should surely ask that

If your school is set up like mine, your clinical faculty probably has part-time clinical duties. I think most doctors out in the field have to contend with burnout. Those physicians in academia tend to be insulated from this, but they get a pay cut compared to the rest

The last sentence is true, but my clinical colleagues have clinical responsibilities that run from 20 to 80 % of their time. To a man and woman, they love what they do.

 

[anon6134]

OP are you a pre-med or in med school? Medicine is a job. One that takes more hours, more of your life, humanity, and sanity but it is a job. How many people in the world love going to work every day? There is a reason they have to pay you to go to work. Some people can tolerate it better than others, it's just that in medicine on average that means tolerating a lot more than your average Joe

 

[recycledpaper]

Doctors who aren’t happy probably have other things going on in their life.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Doctors who aren’t happy probably have other things going on in their life.

It's probably a two way street tbh.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

If he/she wants to guarantee not getting a LOR, they should surely ask that

If your school is set up like mine, your clinical faculty probably has part-time clinical duties. I think most doctors out in the field have to contend with burnout. Those physicians in academia tend to be insulated from this, but they get a pay cut compared to the rest

I always get a kick out of Deans and clinical faculty who 'love patient care' so much that they take a job with 2 patient days a week or less. But no weekends or call of course. And if they get high enough on the list (i.e. deans), no patient care at all, but they still wax poetic about it.

 

[libertyyne]

At my university, shadowing a physician is surreal. I have several physicians who have told me I am welcome to do so, but overcoming the admin obstacles is a feat akin to competing at the Olympics.
View attachment 254766

The misery index with university hospital physicians is high, the dept heads I know do not keep their disdain for the admins a secret, faculty physicians speak publicly at meetings and in conferences about their discontent, contrasted with the “snobbish” attitude (to quote a dept head) admins have while running the “health system”

Meanwhile I am volunteering at the free clinics and because of my language skills and prior medical experience, they are begging me to scribe, translate, do financial screenings and work as many hours as I wish because they turn away patients for lack of resources.

I will shadow some hours at the university hospital to get it done, but I find much more joy at the free clinics with physicians who dive into the muck just to care for patients in need. The university hospital is swimming in money (construction is booming) but their disconnect from people (patients and staff) palpable.

The vaccines are fairly standard requirement for matriculation and promotion to clinical years. Plus look at it from the patients perspective, would you rather have some rando student spreading TB to all the rooms he visits, or would your prefer people get screened when dealing with possibly immuno-compromised patients.

 

[cookiegrub]

OP are you a pre-med or in med school? Medicine is a job. One that takes more hours, more of your life, humanity, and sanity but it is a job. How many people in the world love going to work every day? There is a reason they have to pay you to go to work. Some people can tolerate it better than others, it's just that in medicine on average that means tolerating a lot more than your average Joe

While medicine is a job it is a calling that select people work hard for because it can have huge impact on your patients. I would hope and my idea for entering medicine is that the physician stays happy overall even with the downs that come with the job because you are getting the special priviledge to hold the trust of someone you don't even know. If you are not happy, how will you leave the patient after the visit and how will you take the extra initiative to make sure the patient feels importance? The professionalism within this field is why I harped on going into it because I have seen too many professionals outside who don't value each other or even basic human decency. However, the under-appreciation I see of valued physicians (either by those controlling the system or colleagues themselves) makes me concerned where our healthcare is headed. No one said that to earn higher you have to work less, so I am not saying physicians should have cush jobs. However, the amount of responsibility, workload, and unrealistic expectations that try to squeeze out as much out of a person is truly burdening and it is very apparent in almost every field I have thus shadowed that many physicians wish to be out of this field.

 

[curbsideconsult]

The happiest docs I've seen outside of the very old/close to retired docs are the ones who are IMGs and/or non-trads. These are the people who truly understand that things could be worse. It really seems to me that the unhappiest ones are the ones who started out very idealistic and believed medicine to be an all-encompassing salve for one's life and the world in general.

In terms of long-term happiness, I think it's very important to realize that most of medicine is CYA so heavy documentation is an absolute must and it WILL take up a lot of your day, a lot of days are just going to suck, most patients won't effusively thank you for your help, you will not be a hero everyday, you will get yelled at from all sides, your degree will not save you from having to report to others, you will likely not have a lot of control over your work environment since you probably won't be a self-employed physician, and you will generally deal with a ton of **** both literally and figuratively.

 

[anon6134]

While medicine is a job it is a calling that select people work hard for because it can have huge impact on your patients. I would hope and my idea for entering medicine is that the physician stays happy overall even with the downs that come with the job because you are getting the special priviledge to hold the trust of someone you don't even know.

I don't think there is a med student, resident, or attending that didn't have this viewpoint at your stage in the game. There is the entire spectrum of career satisfaction out there and I'm sorry you've had the experiences you've had. All anyone on here can tell you is to listen to what they have to say and decide for yourself if this is really what you want to do with your life. You can be happy and be a doctor, unfortunately you just can't know how you or your life will be affected at this stage in the game. Go into everything with eyes wide open and make an informed mature decision about medicine because it's not like TV and it will take a lot from you. If that's okay with you and what you mentioned above makes the sacrifice worth it to you, then by all means do what you need to do

 

[cookiegrub]

I think you guys are right. I started out this thread thinking something was wrong with me when people express their feelings of unhappiness with their field. That perhaps they didn't find me fitting into their field and so said these things to dissuade me from even considering as I am not as charming when I am nervous. But what I need to do is seek out happy physicians myself and see where the pendulum rests. At the end of the day no matter how bad a physician may feel due to outside or internal circumstances I do try to take away exactly what their job does and whether or not that fits with what I want to specialize. I hope that one day I will finally meet someone who can make me comfortable with myself and the field.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

Ask them what else they would have done with their Bio degree. I wonder if being a lab tech for 45k would be more satisfying.

 

[libertyyne]

Ask them what else they would have done with their Bio degree. I wonder if being a lab tech for 45k would be more satisfying.

45, more like 30.

 

[cookiegrub]

Ask them what else they would have done with their Bio degree. I wonder if being a lab tech for 45k would be more satisfying.

I realized after getting into medicine, I would try not asking this because it's like trying to focus on "what could have been" or "the grass is greener on the other side" type which I personally think is useless. Also this is an extremely depressing question and one I avoid because in my opinion it implies that I am not interested in medicine (which is the last thing in my mind as I love medicine and I want more people to show me that side rather than escaping a career I work so hard to maintain).
Most doctors I have met have had medicine as their first time job and so most don't really know the difficulties of other jobs but that doesn't take away from the fact that being a physician is a difficult job filled with liabilities. There are a lot of scribes or research lab tech things students have done but these jobs are temporary and are not an image of what a permanent job is like. Those that had the option since they had a prior career seem to be much more content; but I attribute that to their personality more than anything. Also, this is my second career as I worked 4 years in a different field and I guess I got dealt a bad hand but I came away being burned out and extremely unhappy with the choice since medicine had always been my dream job. So yes, this is why I am distraught half the time when I have to be with physicians who are in a similar situation reminding me of my past career. I probably would have found myself enjoying my first career had it not been for me having a chip on my shoulder for not going into medicine or worrying about where I will get my ROLs in the event I prolong this gap time. But to be fair, my first career did not at all align with who I am and that is a mistake I hope not to make again. The best solution I have found to help me is just avoiding people and places where this is prevalent but you just never know what the day will be like.

 

[Splenda88]

Most people in medicine come from upper-middle-class families and never had a real job until they are in their mid-to-upper 20s. And almost all of us are 1+ standard deviation above average in IQ than the rest of the US population. A profession that is in the top 10% in term of intelligence as well as socio-economic upbringing. Basically, we have no idea what it is like to be an average Joe.

 

[UnoMas]

Most people in medicine come from upper-middle-class families and never had a real job until they are in their mid-to-upper 20s. And almost all of us are 1+ standard deviation above average in IQ than the rest of the US population. A profession that is in the top 10% in term of intelligence as well as socio-economic upbringing. Basically, we have no idea what's like to be an average Joe.

^ This. Most of the unhappy docs tend to have this 'grass is always greener' mentality. They come from a long line of doctors in the family, have seen the glory days of medicine. Private daycare, kindergarten, middle school, high school, ivy league college, medical school. Their reality is warped and quite frankly, a little out of touch with the average person. They compare themselves with their college buddies who are on Wall Street, big Law, big Tech without having a slightest clue what it takes or how to get there.

The reality is for most specialties, you have the ability to cut your hours way back and make it 'lifestyle' and still make great money (>200k a year) but how many of these unhappy docs do that?

Some picked the wrong specialty, some are being so geographically inflexible, they are bitter for the entirety of their career.

Moral of the story is go find the happy docs and learn their secret. You will find unhappy people everywhere, regardless of their situations. Stay away from them.

Medicine is a big decision tho, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

^ This. Most of the unhappy docs tend to have this 'grass is always greener' mentality. They come from a long line of doctors in the family, have seen the glory days of medicine. Private daycare, kindergarten, middle school, high school, ivy league college, medical school. Their reality is warped and quite frankly, a little out of touch with the average person. They compare themselves with their college buddies who are on Wall Street, big Law, big Tech without having a slightest clue what it takes or how to get there.

The reality is for most specialties, you have the ability to cut your hours way back and make it 'lifestyle' and still make great money (>200k a year) but how many of these unhappy docs do that?

Some picked the wrong specialty, some are being so geographically inflexible, they are bitter for the entirety of their career.

Moral of the story is go find the happy docs and learn their secret. You will find unhappy people everywhere, regardless of their situations. Stay away from them.

Medicine is a big decision tho, make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

Honestly nowadays any average doctor can easily make 250k and if you want to you can make almost double that from most specialties including Fm. You can still live the "glory days" lifestyle but guess what? They'll still complain. Actually, read lots of talk about how docs back then also complained of the same stuff.

Income has stayed great and total work hours have improved. Facts.