Why isn't pre-med considered some general science major yet

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Especially with the New MCAT

I find it ridiculous that the AAMC is now requiring people to take

Psychology, Biochemistry, sociology, Chem (x2), Orgo (x2), Physics (x2), Bio (x2), Calc, English (x2)


That's 42 credits right there which is more than what's required for some majors

Edit I forgot about lab which would be 1 credit * 9
so 51 credits

Seriously, had I gone to a school with stringent core curriculum requirements like columbia and was taking the 2015 mcat or lacked AP Credits in the Math/English thing, It would be nearly impossible to take all of those classes while doing my undergrad major classes which is like other 40 without taking summer classes and stuff

You are basically forced to know for a fact you want to be a doctor or be prepared to be in school for a long time with bost bacs

 

[911 Turbo]

Especially with the New MCAT

I find it ridiculous that the AAMC is now requiring people to take

Psychology, Biochemistry, sociology, Chem (x2), Orgo (x2), Physics (x2), Bio (x2), Calc, English (x2)


That's 42 credits right there which is more than what's required for some majors

Edit I forgot about lab which would be 1 credit * 9
so 51 credits

Seriously, had I gone to a school with stringent core curriculum requirements like columbia and was taking the 2015 mcat or lacked AP Credits in the Math/English thing, It would be nearly impossible to take all of those classes while doing my undergrad major classes which is like other 40 without taking summer classes and stuff

You are basically forced to know for a fact you want to be a doctor or be prepared to be in school for a long time with bost bacs

Wtf lol 42 credit majors?...

 

[touchpause13]

Wtf lol 42 credit majors?...

My major was 36 credits. Plus generals of course

 

[onedirection]

Mine was 36 for Art History

I assume engineering majors were some ridiculously high number of credits mainly because of prereqs considering how meticulously their schedules get laid out

 

[BlueLabel]

My major was 36 credits. Plus generals of course

What was it? I don't even know how you figure that. Is bio 111 a general unless you're a bio major?

Mine was 120 hours altogether I think.

 

[Chir0nex]

Presumably because a major is supposed to leave you prepared to enter that field of study. Pre-med courses do not give you a deep enough grounding in any of the sciences to actually be useful in that field. Creating a general science major based around pre-med will end up encouraging people to leave college with only med school as the only real option for post-grad, but at the same time that is an extremely competetive path to take.

Really the solution is for schools to have more generous over-lap of curriculum and major requirements. For example, structure a psych major so that some bio or chem courses can earn you credit there.

 

[touchpause13]

What was it? I don't even know how you figure that. Is bio 111 a general unless you're a bio major?

Mine was 120 hours altogether I think.

Uhhhhh I was an English major. I just looked on my aacomas application and the number of english credits I took.

 

[ghboyd25]

" [Insert school] strongly encourages applicants to undertake study at an advanced, in-depth level in at least one discipline, beyond the minimal requirements for admission and the course requirements for their major."

Also because you can find some version of this on most admissions pages. A pre-med major doesn't require you to go in depth so it kind of shows a lack of expertise (for an undergrad) and passion which wouldn't be good.

 

[BlueLabel]

Uhhhhh I was an English major. I just looked on my aacomas application and the number of english credits I took.

I don't think that's the way to look at it. For example, at my school, biochem majors have to take 4 semesters of calculus. That wouldn't be listed under "bio" or "Chem" but it was definitely not general curriculum. Just go with the number of hours in your degree plan.

 

[Straw Hat]

With the new MCAT, has there been any discussion in how your science gpa is calculated? Will it be the same or if they're testing psych and sociology classes will they be calculated into your science gpa instead of overall?

Haven't really seen any threads about this and a quick search didn't answer the question so I figured I'd ask. And it's my understanding that calc still wouldn't be required.

 

[Burla]

Especially with the New MCAT

I find it ridiculous that the AAMC is now requiring people to take

Psychology, Biochemistry, sociology, Chem (x2), Orgo (x2), Physics (x2), Bio (x2), Calc, English (x2)


That's 42 credits right there which is more than what's required for some majors

Edit I forgot about lab which would be 1 credit * 9
so 51 credits

You are basically forced to know for a fact you want to be a doctor or be prepared to be in school for a long time with bost bacs

The problem is for the students who can't get into medical school. What can they do with a pre-med degree? At least they can fall back on a bio major. I know people with 2.5's who get C's in their science prereqs and think they are going to be open heart surgeons. When they don't get in they would be screwed.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This kinda gets back to the, why isn't premed a 2 year process/ associates degree. Anyway, taking an extra course course in psychology won't kill you.

 

[Koalafied]

interdisciplinary, if any

 

[Narmerguy]

Well, in my case I was a Biophysics major. Biochem, cell bio, gen bio, organic I, chem I, phys I&II, calc all counted towards my major. Then English is a general university requirement. I also had to take two social science classes as part of my generals, so I took soc and econ (but could have taken psych). Pretty much the only two "extra" classes I had to take were organic II and chem II.

If you choose a sensible major this isn't so hard to fit in. Most schools have gen ed requirements and the sociology/psychology/english can all typically fit within that. If you consider that the average student is taking 120 credits before they graduate, I don't think they're asking that much. It simply restricts the free extracurriculars that you can take a small bit.

 

[Mel Belle]

It doesn't bother me to know that people with 2.5 GPAs and Cs all over the place still apply to med school thinking they'll be open heart surgeons. Less competition. But in all seriousness, if there was a "pre-med" major then what would these sort of people do after that fact with that sort of degree? I don't see why this is even a question. If you pick the right major it covers close to, if not completely, what you need regardless.

I personally enjoy going in depth into my biochem major. If I didn't love science I wouldn't be anywhere near medicine, either. They go hand in hand. If you really dislike science that much I don't see why you would want to be a doctor. Granted, it's not the same love for science as a researcher, necessarily. But medicine is not separate from science. I just find it strange when pre-meds say they hate science but love medicine. 😕

 

[BlueLabel]

It doesn't bother me to know that people with 2.5 GPAs and Cs all over the place still apply to med school thinking they'll be open heart surgeons. Less competition. But in all seriousness, if there was a "pre-med" major then what would these sort of people do after that fact with that sort of degree? I don't see why this is even a question. If you pick the right major it covers close to, if not completely, what you need regardless.

I personally enjoy going in depth into my biochem major. If I didn't love science I wouldn't be anywhere near medicine, either. They go hand in hand. If you really dislike science that much I don't see why you would want to be a doctor. Granted, it's not the same love for science as a researcher, necessarily. But medicine is not separate from science. I just find it strange when pre-meds say they hate science but love medicine. 😕

Those people are extremely irritating

 

[Mel Belle]

Those people are extremely irritating

Blue Collar, Blue Scrubs by Michael J. Collins, M.D. was full of that... It bothered me through that entire book. Props to him for getting 97, 99, etc. sorta grades in high level science courses without really liking science that much but... I just don't get it.

 

[Koalafied]

Blue Collar, Blue Scrubs by Michael J. Collins, M.D. was full of that... It bothered me through that entire book. Props to him for getting 97, 99, etc. sorta grades in high level science courses without really liking science that much but... I just don't get it.

Haven't read the book yet. But was there quackery of any sort in the plot?

 

[Mel Belle]

Haven't read the book yet. But was there quackery of any sort in the plot?

No. That particular book of his is simply how he went from being a construction worker to graduating medical school. I believe his other book has more about him actually practicing.

 

[Koalafied]

No. That particular book of his is simply how he went from being a construction worker to graduating medical school. I believe his other book has more about him actually practicing.

Thanks. I'll add it to the list.🙂

 

[touchpause13]

I don't think that's the way to look at it. For example, at my school, biochem majors have to take 4 semesters of calculus. That wouldn't be listed under "bio" or "Chem" but it was definitely not general curriculum. Just go with the number of hours in your degree plan.

Yeah. .. You just don't understand humanities majors lol. For an English major you have to take X number of English courses. Plus what ever generals the University requires you to take to graduate.


Edit: now that I think about it I did have to take a couple foreign language classes as well but I tested out of most of that requirement so kinda forgot about it. But like if I had been a French majori would have just had to take a certain number of French credits.

 

[circulus vitios]

AAMC wants "well-rounded physicians."

So they do the reasonable thing and require even more classes that push out non-science majors.

 

[kmp0410]

I don't see the big deal.

You pretty much have to take English anyways. Sociology and Psychology can be fit in as first 2 year electives.

Everything else is science that you need to have a grasp in for medical school.

Obviously its harder to fit all these if your in a non-science major, but that's to be expected. You are taking other classes instead...Theres plenty of majors that accomplish almost all of these pre-reqs in their curriculum which is why most pre-med's choose them. Pre-Med isn't a major because most pre-med's don't make it, and then to appropriately provide alternate outlets for those who choose not to follow through. Theres quite a few who start off as pre-med, discover they love a specific science, then pursue something more in that field.

 

[touchpause13]

AMCAS wants "well-rounded physicians."

So they do the reasonable thing and require even more classes that push out non-science majors.

+1

Genius plan guys. ..

 

[hmockingbird]

I don't really think it's a big deal, and I was an English major... I just used most of my electives for science classes. I pretty much took all of those classes except psych and sociology and I could have substituted those for some of the extra science classes I did take, if I'd needed to (like genetics). It was kind-of like double-majoring I guess, but non-science majors are often pretty small so that's not too hard to do.

 

[Goro]

I don't see the problem.

Most Humanities majors will still require you to take 1 year of English, 1 of Psych and 1 of science (I don't know if math would count as that). That's 18 credits (or was ay my UG school) and enough for a minor.

This new core just adds biochem,which is definitely something you need for med school and beyond.

The whole package just selects for the well-rounded student that we're looking for. It also will weed out a lot of people we DON'T want to see!

I agree with the post that "Pre-med" as a major isn't likely to get you hired on as a technician at Eli Lilly or Pfizer, but a Biology degree will. Even "Pre-professional" is a doorway to something else.

Especially with the New MCAT

I find it ridiculous that the AAMC is now requiring people to take

Psychology, Biochemistry, sociology, Chem (x2), Orgo (x2), Physics (x2), Bio (x2), Calc, English (x2)


That's 42 credits right there which is more than what's required for some majors

Edit I forgot about lab which would be 1 credit * 9
so 51 credits

Seriously, had I gone to a school with stringent core curriculum requirements like columbia and was taking the 2015 mcat or lacked AP Credits in the Math/English thing, It would be nearly impossible to take all of those classes while doing my undergrad major classes which is like other 40 without taking summer classes and stuff

You are basically forced to know for a fact you want to be a doctor or be prepared to be in school for a long time with bost bacs

 

[sunflower18]

I go to a small LAC with fairly hefty general education requirements. I could only major in a science or a humanity with not very many credits, because fitting all of my pre-reqs and major classes and gen ed is very challenging. If you planned everything out and all of the classes you wanted were offered during exactly the right semester and exactly the right time in which you wanted them, you MIGHT be able to pull off an unrelated major. But it's unlikely, because at my itty bitty school, there are always scheduling conflicts between what you want and what you are forced to have.

I thought very seriously about majoring in English or even Psych, but it would have been challenging to mesh those schedules together. Good thing I discovered my love for chemistry, otherwise I would have been in a tricky situation!

I don't necessarily think that "pre-med" should be its own major. But I would embrace a major that covered the pre-reqs and also required some upper level, health-relevant science classes like immunology, virology, pathology, anatomy, physiology, embryology, toxicology, pharmacology, etc. as well as maybe some health or bioethics classes. Maybe some big schools have that, but mine sure doesn't. It would have been nice!

 

[touchpause13]

I don't really think it's a big deal, and I was an English major... I just used most of my electives for science classes. I pretty much took all of those classes except psych and sociology and I could have substituted those for some of the extra science classes I did take, if I'd needed to (like genetics). It was kind-of like double-majoring I guess, but non-science majors are often pretty small so that's not too hard to do.

English tends to be a really chill major. The only thing on this list I didn't have was biochem. The big thing I would see this new move screwing over would be engineering majors who already have to take a crazy amount of credits to graduate.

 

[ghboyd25]

I go to a small LAC with fairly hefty general education requirements. I could only major in a science or a humanity with not very many credits, because fitting all of my pre-reqs and major classes and gen ed is very challenging. If you planned everything out and all of the classes you wanted were offered during exactly the right semester and exactly the right time in which you wanted them, you MIGHT be able to pull off an unrelated major. But it's unlikely, because at my itty bitty school, there are always scheduling conflicts between what you want and what you are forced to have.

I thought very seriously about majoring in English or even Psych, but it would have been challenging to mesh those schedules together. Good thing I discovered my love for chemistry, otherwise I would have been in a tricky situation!

I don't necessarily think that "pre-med" should be its own major. But I would embrace a major that covered the pre-reqs and also required some upper level, health-relevant science classes like immunology, virology, pathology, anatomy, physiology, embryology, toxicology, pharmacology, etc. as well as maybe some health or bioethics classes. Maybe some big schools have that, but mine sure doesn't. It would have been nice!

Sounds like you're talking about a bio major?

 

[WillburCobb]

...The big thing I would see this new move screwing over would be engineering majors who already have to take a crazy amount of credits to graduate.

Music Ed majors as well, but I don't think that would affect too many people.

 

[circulus vitios]

I don't see the problem.

Most Humanities majors will still require you to take 1 year of English, 1 of Psych and 1 of science (I don't know if math would count as that). That's 18 credits (or was ay my UG school) and enough for a minor.

This new core just adds biochem,which is definitely something you need for med school and beyond.

The whole package just selects for the well-rounded student that we're looking for. It also will weed out a lot of people we DON'T want to see!

I agree with the post that "Pre-med" as a major isn't likely to get you hired on as a technician at Eli Lilly or Pfizer, but a Biology degree will. Even "Pre-professional" is a doorway to something else.

"Well rounded" is a buzzword and mandating additional coursework is not going to create "well rounded" applicants. I have already taken psych and soc (but not biochem), and I see the new course requirements as another pointless and annoying hoop to jump through.

 

[PreMedRookie]

I would want my doctor to have some basic psych and sociology background. I majored in bio and easily got two minors. Adding two classes shouldn't bother you this much. These courses are required for every major pretty much at my school and I think it is a great idea. People need to understand the struggles that others go through.

 

[circulus vitios]

I would want my doctor to have some basic psych and sociology background. I majored in bio and easily got two minors. Adding two classes shouldn't bother you this much. These courses are required for every major pretty much at my school and I think it is a great idea. People need to understand the struggles that others go through.

You're delusional if you think two courses are going to make applicants "understand" the struggle, or even make them aware of it.

 

[Narmerguy]

You're delusional if you think two courses are going to make applicants "understand" the struggle, or even make them aware of it.

Actually it's not that far fetched. The first sociology class I took fundamentally changed my view of a lot of the world. Knowledge is power, but often you don't know what you don't know until you see it.

 

[Koalafied]

[YOUTUBE]S8635VAnOeE[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]Y2adQ-5WDPA[/YOUTUBE]

It's about change.😀

 

[circulus vitios]

I want to yell at Darrell G. Kirch, M.D. until I'm hoarse.

 

[sunflower18]

Sounds like you're talking about a bio major?

Not at my school. Bio at my school is 75% plants.

 

[touchpause13]

Actually it's not that far fetched. The first sociology class I took fundamentally changed my view of a lot of the world. Knowledge is power, but often you don't know what you don't know until you see it.

I agree. My first gender studies course completely altered my view on the world and has had a huge impact on me

 

[BlueLabel]

I agree. My first gender studies course completely altered my view on the world and has had a huge impact on me

I took one freshman year where my prof insisted that the physical differences between men and women (in terms of muscular strength, not anatomy) were an illusory product of gender constructs and socialization. So I guess your mileage varies.

 

[Beargryllz]

Wtf lol 42 credit majors?...

42 is quite high at most institutions

I think mine required 36 + some gen eds

 

[Mel Belle]

Music Ed majors as well, but I don't think that would affect too many people.

... Music ed? My sister is a music ed major at Ithaca ad it's practically a double major by itself. If you can do it... Well that's amazing. Why bother getting a teaching certification for music if you're not going to use it, though? That's a lot of work for nothing.

 

[BlueLabel]

42 is quite high at most institutions

I think mine required 36 + some gen eds

What I think is going on is that other universities have a very different scheme from the set up that M8 and I are familiar with. Around here they hand you a degree plan that adds up to about 120. That's your "major".

 

[notbobtrustme]

I just find it strange when pre-meds say they hate science but love medicine. 😕

It actually makes perfect sense.

The first two years you are basically memorizing a phone book. The fact that the phone book consists of scientific words doesn't really change what you are doing. There are some general concepts, but they don't really expand beyond intuition. Medicine is about working through an algorithm given a bunch of data and the ability to get more data. The emphasis is more on the end product (eg did the patient get better or worse) and coming to a diagnosis rather than "why?" or "how?" as would be in a scientific inquiry.

Science is vastly different. Science is about formulating testable hypotheses and designing powerful experiments to rule that hypotheses out. There's much less emphasis on rote memorization, following algorithms and the like.

So you can very easily like medicine but hate science and not be contradictory at all.

 

[Plue00]

Especially with the New MCAT

I find it ridiculous that the AAMC is now requiring people to take

Psychology, Biochemistry, sociology, Chem (x2), Orgo (x2), Physics (x2), Bio (x2), Calc, English (x2)


That's 42 credits right there which is more than what's required for some majors

Edit I forgot about lab which would be 1 credit * 9
so 51 credits

Seriously, had I gone to a school with stringent core curriculum requirements like columbia and was taking the 2015 mcat or lacked AP Credits in the Math/English thing, It would be nearly impossible to take all of those classes while doing my undergrad major classes which is like other 40 without taking summer classes and stuff

You are basically forced to know for a fact you want to be a doctor or be prepared to be in school for a long time with bost bacs

At my school, it would actually be 64 credits...

Psych = 3
Biochem = 4
Socio = 3
Chem/lab = 10
Orgo/lab = 12
Physics/lab = 10
Bio/lab = 10
Math(x2) = 6
English (x2) = 6

Total = 64

Good luck to those majoring outside of science...

 

[Mel Belle]

It actually makes perfect sense.

The first two years you are basically memorizing a phone book. The fact that the phone book consists of scientific words doesn't really change what you are doing. There are some general concepts, but they don't really expand beyond intuition. Medicine is about working through an algorithm given a bunch of data and the ability to get more data. The emphasis is more on the end product (eg did the patient get better or worse) and coming to a diagnosis rather than "why?" or "how?" as would be in a scientific inquiry.

Science is vastly different. Science is about formulating testable hypotheses and designing powerful experiments to rule that hypotheses out. There's much less emphasis on rote memorization, following algorithms and the like.

So you can very easily like medicine but hate science and not be contradictory at all.

You make a point. For sure.

Though it seems like the journey would be a lot more difficult if you hate science. That's a lot to just go through the motions with, since it includes all of undergrad plus a couple years in med school.

I personally don't see how someone can enjoy medicine without actually caring how it works. But I suppose that's why my trajectory is MD/PhD not just MD. Obviously it's no requirement. Just how I feel.

 

[touchpause13]

What I think is going on is that other universities have a very different scheme from the set up that M8 and I are familiar with. Around here they hand you a degree plan that adds up to about 120. That's your "major".

That is quite different than what my university was.

 

[WillburCobb]

... Music ed? My sister is a music ed major at Ithaca ad it's practically a double major by itself. If you can do it... Well that's amazing. Why bother getting a teaching certification for music if you're not going to use it, though? That's a lot of work for nothing.

Yeah, that's why I just opted to drop down to just general music and withdraw from all my Ed classes when I was positive I was going to go pre-med; there's no way in hell I'd use the degree even if med school never became a reality. It's sad that If it weren't for my neuroscience minor I still could've graduated with my psych degree and all of my pre-med reqs in 3.5 semesters after switching plans.

 

[BlueLabel]

That is quite different than what my university was.

Honestly I think it's a bit of a culture shock for both of us. Not hating at all, I just didn't realize that other paradigm existed. Heck it might even be the norm; I only went to one (large state) school

 

[touchpause13]

Honestly I think it's a bit of a culture shock for both of us. Not hating at all, I just didn't realize that other paradigm existed. Heck it might even be the norm; I only went to one (large state) school

I went to a private liberal arts and a state University and they were both like that. Maybe it's regional? I'm Midwest. Nice to learn something new tho 👍

 

[inycepoo]

Honestly I think it's a bit of a culture shock for both of us. Not hating at all, I just didn't realize that other paradigm existed. Heck it might even be the norm; I only went to one (large state) school

I went to a private liberal arts and a state University and they were both like that. Maybe it's regional? I'm Midwest. Nice to learn something new tho 👍

I'm Northeast, and I can assure you that such a system is not the norm, and I have never heard of such a thing. Sounds mad weird. lol