Why Ivy League isn't well represented in military medicine

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navdoc47

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A friend of mine who graduated from Cornell medical school, enlightened me with the fact that if one goes to an Ivy League medical school or equivalent, one doesn't have to borrow as much since those well-funded schools give grants to their students. This is why I believe there are few HPSP scholarships from the Ivy League and equivalent.

I thought this was interesting, so i thought i'd share with y'all :D

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Historically, I'm not sure that is true. In the past there was a lot of military physicians from "upper tier" medical schools. When I signed up for HPSP my senior year of college it was competitive and all the spots were filled. I think military medicine needs to reform and evolve. If that happens I think we'll see HPSP become competitive again.
 
A friend of mine who graduated from Cornell medical school, enlightened me with the fact that if one goes to an Ivy League medical school or equivalent, one doesn't have to borrow as much since those well-funded schools give grants to their students. This is why I believe there are few HPSP scholarships from the Ivy League and equivalent.

I thought this was interesting, so i thought i'd share with y'all :D


I suspect the Ivy League in general is not well represented in the military, for a variety of reasons.

Might be interesting to see if the proportion of Ivy Leaguers in the Med Corps is different from the proportion of Ivy League in the officer corps in general.

X-RMD
Non-I.V.
 
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IMO, it's more likely that expensive schools are not as well represented. What's the point of shelling out $40K per year for a student when they can get 2 at less expensive schools for the same price?

It's a penny pinching milmed system right now and if there's anything I've witnessed in the military it's how closely those who have one protect their pot of money.
 
Not so sure about that. I've got two Hahvahd guys here. Not a huge sample but they introduced me to even more Ivy's. I think it might have to do with the general culture at Ivy's....?
 
IMO, it's more likely that expensive schools are not as well represented. What's the point of shelling out $40K per year for a student when they can get 2 at less expensive schools for the same price?

It's a penny pinching milmed system right now and if there's anything I've witnessed in the military it's how closely those who have one protect their pot of money.

They haven't met recruitment goals lately, they wouldn't be so selective as to not meet their goals.

My theory: a greater portion of Ivy league med students went to Ivy League undergrad. A great portion of Ivy League Undergrads are uber rich. I bet a good chunk of old-money hah-vahd folks don't have too much trouble finding the dough for school.
 
They haven't met recruitment goals lately, they wouldn't be so selective as to not meet their goals.

My theory: a greater portion of Ivy league med students went to Ivy League undergrad. A great portion of Ivy League Undergrads are uber rich. I bet a good chunk of old-money hah-vahd folks don't have too much trouble finding the dough for school.

when I was a new HPSP student (1995) I was told only 10% of applicants were selected/awarded.

how things have changed. :idea:
 
Hey, Corpse is a Hahvahd guy, right? That's one on this forum... (I went to Big-State-U).

Just as an aside, do any of the ivy league schools even allow recruiters on campus? I thought they sued over the don't-ask-don't-tell thing, and barred military recruiters from being there... that would certainly cut into recruiting numbers if the recruiters weren't even allowed near the studs.

I haven't kept up with that whole thing... anyone care to update me?
 
IMO, it's more likely that expensive schools are not as well represented. What's the point of shelling out $40K per year for a student when they can get 2 at less expensive schools for the same price?

It's a penny pinching milmed system right now and if there's anything I've witnessed in the military it's how closely those who have one protect their pot of money.


Not true...the military medical corp has a disproportionate number of DO's....all are EXPENSIVE degrees.
 
Friday night = not sober....

but ill throw in my two cents anyway...

For an undergraduate degree, the origional poster is 100% correct: Ivy league schools give out more grants than state schools; however, you have to be either really poor (need-based aid ONLY) OR the best of the best to receive one (entering with a noble prize under your belt).

I don't think medical school's the same. Even the Ivy's swing you in the direction of loan money. I can speak first hand about recruiters not being allowed on campus during my ivy days and personally believe in the theory that since Ivy/private college feed Ivy medical schools that the numbers might fall a little short. Another factor might be that there are only a handful of Ivy League schools. Since there are 142 non-ivy MD schools in the US(plus DOs) and only 8 Ivy's, it seems that statistcs does not work in favor of selecting a student at random who is not at an Ivy League school.

I noticed at OIS that there seemed to be more DOs than MDs...does anyone have any idea why? Maybe it takes a different person/personality to go to a DO school and somehow it's more attracted to the military?

back to pre-gaming...
 
To answer your question Rugby, I don't think there are any public DO schools. They're all private and therefore universally expensive, so I would suspect that pushes people toward HPSP. Also, I would guess that the more competitive specialties are more readily available to DOs in the military, since many civilian MD residencies "discriminate" against DOs still.
 
Students at top tier medical schools are interested in academics. While military medicine may have been good for that in the past--many of my highly published attendings were in the military--its not so true anymore. Students interested in research know this and stay away.
 
I work at MGH in Boston and a couple of weeks ago went to a talk at Beth Israel that was given by SOF Medic. There were two HPSP recruiters there, and they mentioned that there was a Military Medicine dinner that week @ HMS, and I was invited if I wanted.
So...I think they're allowed on campus. As I remember about the don't ask don't tell thing it wasn't the Ivy League as a whole (I had several friends in various ROTC programs in UG at Ivy's), and I believe it was Law School (maybe Harvard).
 
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To answer your question Rugby, I don't think there are any public DO schools. They're all private and therefore universally expensive, so I would suspect that pushes people toward HPSP. Also, I would guess that the more competitive specialties are more readily available to DOs in the military, since many civilian MD residencies "discriminate" against DOs still.

Generally true but Michigan State University's School of Osteopathic Medicine is the one exception to that rule.

Friday night = not sober....

but ill throw in my two cents anyway...

Another factor might be that there are only a handful of Ivy League schools. Since there are 142 non-ivy MD schools in the US(plus DOs) and only 8 Ivy's, it seems that statistcs does not work in favor of selecting a student at random who is not at an Ivy League school.

Close, as Princeton doesn't have a medical school, the number is seven: Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, Penn, Brown and Dartmouth. For practical purposes of the discussion, schools like Stanford, Johns Hopkins, Duke, Northwestern, UCLA, UCSF, Pittsburgh and Wash. U. are in the same club.

I noticed at OIS that there seemed to be more DOs than MDs...does anyone have any idea why? Maybe it takes a different person/personality to go to a DO school and somehow it's more attracted to the military?

back to pre-gaming...

Several reasons. State schools are more attractive places to self-finance as the overall costs are lower compared to private universities. The military scholarship program becomes relatively less valuable (present dollar calculation.) So competition is greater for students who have to borrow less otherwise.

Private universities vary widely in their capacity to provide student aid. The best endowed programs also have strong combined-degree (M.D.-Ph.D.) programs that attract applicants with research interests; there isn't easy accommodation to HPSP with that kind of program (although there was a Harvard M.D.-Ph.D. physician parasitologist in my internship class at NRMC PORTSVA, once upon a time.) And some schools have a quiet bias against military scholarships, just not encouraging them very much; usually those are schools with large institutional resources.

DO schools generally don't have large endowments and so generally expect their students to arrange their own financing. The HPSP program sells better there. They also have historically more of a training bias favoring practice over research. And they have been more attractive to non-traditional applicants who might have been relatively disfavored at M.D. schools used to accepting early 20s applicants fresh out of four-year colleges. Some of those applicants are former military looking to resume military careers or come from backgrounds where military service is generally favorably regarded.
 
To answer your question Rugby, I don't think there are any public DO schools. They're all private and therefore universally expensive, so I would suspect that pushes people toward HPSP. Also, I would guess that the more competitive specialties are more readily available to DOs in the military, since many civilian MD residencies "discriminate" against DOs still.





This statement is absolutely false. Six of the 23 Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine in the United States are State owned and funded (public). Cursory research first, followed by posting, is advice you can go to the bank on.

1.) Michigan State University
College of Osteopathic Medicine

2.) Oklahoma State University Osteopathic

3.) Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine

4.) University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey,
School of Osteopathic Medicine,

5.) University of North Texas Osteopathic

6.) West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine
 
This statement is absolutely false. Six of the 23 Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine in the United States are State owned and funded (public). Cursory research first, followed by posting, is advice you can go to the bank on.

1.) Michigan State University
College of Osteopathic Medicine

2.) Oklahoma State University Osteopathic

3.) Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine

4.) University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey,
School of Osteopathic Medicine,

5.) University of North Texas Osteopathic

6.) West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine

6 of 23= 26% of schools are public. That means that three out of four aren't. I don't think that qualifies a statement as "absolutely false". I'm pretty sure the logic still applies to DO schools in general.
 
This statement is absolutely false. Six of the 23 Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine in the United States are State owned and funded (public). Cursory research first, followed by posting, is advice you can go to the bank on.

Not to pile on, but was that tone really necessary?

Whether DO or MD, we're all colleagues here.
 
Just as an aside, do any of the ivy league schools even allow recruiters on campus? I thought they sued over the don't-ask-don't-tell thing, and barred military recruiters from being there

The courts have done away with that. Any school that accepts federal funding must allow military recruiters on campus.
 
6 of 23= 26% of schools are public. That means that three out of four aren't. I don't think that qualifies a statement as "absolutely false". I'm pretty sure the logic still applies to DO schools in general.

Don't forget Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine on the campus of Virginia Tech University.
 
when I was a new HPSP student (1995) I was told only 10% of applicants were selected/awarded.

how things have changed. :idea:

I distinctly recall an HPSP recruiter once telling me years before I was selected for HPSP, "you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever being selected". Well, looks like there was at least one snowball in hell or more likely merely an "illusion" of competitive selection.
 
Don't forget Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine on the campus of Virginia Tech University.

Virginia Tech's Osteopathic medical school is actually a private school, or at least that is what they say about themselves. Somewhat like Penn State/ Hershey Medical School is in relation to Pennsylvania State University, which is also a private medical school, it affiliates with Virginia Tech in some matters of academic governance.
 
I stand corrected, but that's no reason to be an dingus.



Looking again at my post, I see now that it's tone was a bit sharper than I had really intended. I am sorry about that. I do my best before I post anything anywhere to make sure it is correct in content, and especially on SDN, where people are often quick to discern mistakes. Unfortunately, that last post was not screened for "assholish" tone before being sent.
 
IMO, it's more likely that expensive schools are not as well represented. What's the point of shelling out $40K per year for a student when they can get 2 at less expensive schools for the same price?

It's a penny pinching milmed system right now and if there's anything I've witnessed in the military it's how closely those who have one protect their pot of money.

The other two Boston med schools (BU and Tufts) are more expensive than Harvard and better represented in military medicine. 5% of graduating tufts 4th years are going to military residencies. Approximately 8% of the BU class of '08 is in HPSP. Recruiting is very active at both schools, and I don't believe anyone has been turned away because the school is too costly.
 
HA HA HA, :laugh: one of those Hah-Vad kids spelled it Sand Diego!! :laugh: Glad I saved my money and went to school in a fly-over state.

Yeah, I got a pretty good laugh out of that too. Unfortunately, we cannot confirm whether or not the poster was Harvard educated.
 
HA HA HA, :laugh: one of those Hah-Vad kids spelled it Sand Diego!! :laugh: Glad I saved my money and went to school in a fly-over state.
May be a case of sarchasm here.

If I was freezing my cans off on the East Coast, I'm sure I'd have a completely unrealistic conception of what Valhalla might await me on the left coast.
 
BigNavyPedsGuy
A great portion of Ivy League Undergrads are uber rich. I bet a good chunk of old-money hah-vahd folks don't have too much trouble finding the dough for school.

Sir,

I think your smug stereotype is way off. Having gone to Harvard for undergrad, I can say for a fact that nearly all of my peers very much worried about financing college, and your sweeping generalization of "Hah-vahd" as this bastion of blue-blooded privilege is outdated/ignorant at best.

Though it is true that the vast majority of Harvard students are not "poor" (even if both my roommates came from decidely lower-middle-class backgrounds), the same is true for many college students, in general.

The average household income of a student attending the University of North Carolina -- hardly a bedrock of privilege -- is $80,000.
http://gazette.unc.edu/archives/03feb05/morestories.html

This is comparable to the average household income of a Harvard student.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/e...&en=9e4628a078512312&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

As for why students from the Ivy League generally do not join the military, suffice to say I have many thoughts on the subject -- and thankfully, I know more than a few who are defying the stereotypes.

V/R,
4401
 
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Sir, I think your smug stereotype is way off. Having gone to Harvard for undergrad, I can say for a fact that nearly all of my peers very much worried about financing college, and your sweeping generalization of "Hah-vahd" as this bastion of blue-blooded privilege is outdated/ignorant at best.

Though it is true that the vast majority of Harvard students are not "poor" (even if both my roommates came from decidely lower-middle-class backgrounds), the same is true for many college students, in general.

The average household income of a student attending the University of North Carolina -- hardly a bedrock of privilege -- is $80,000.
http://gazette.unc.edu/archives/03feb05/morestories.html

This is comparable to the average household income of a Harvard student.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/e...&en=9e4628a078512312&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

As for why students from the Ivy League generally do not join the military, suffice to say I have many thoughts on the subject -- and thankfully, I know more than a few who are defying the stereotypes.

respectfully,
S/F,
4401


I apologize for the attitude in my earlier posts. But your argument is terrible. The link about Carolina says that $80,000 is well over the average for families in North Carolina. And the article is upset about that discrepancy.

Your second link is the one that really hurts your argument. It says that three quarters of Harvard families make more than $80,000. So your sources say: three quarters of the people attending Harvard make well over the average for a family in North Carolina. I don't see how that dismisses the stereotype that the majority of the school is full of wealth and priviledge.

You said you had thoughts on why Ivy Leaugers don't join the military: what are they?
 
You said you had thoughts on why Ivy Leaugers don't join the military: what are they?

Is it that Ivy Leaguers don't join the military or militarially inclined people don't go to the Ivy League. I know Harvard Business and Gov't take plent of Ex-Military people, but I would offer that people self select where they apply. People who are interested in the military are generally conservative politically, and the Ivy Leagues are generally liberal politicially. Most people I know, myself included, like to be where they fit in, so liberal people might not join the military (generally conservative) and conservative might not go to Ivy League schools (generally liberal).
 
BigNavyPedsGuy

I apologize for the attitude in my earlier posts. But your argument is terrible. The link about Carolina says that $80,000 is well over the average for families in North Carolina. And the article is upset about that discrepancy.

Your second link is the one that really hurts your argument. It says that three quarters of Harvard families make more than $80,000. So your sources say: three quarters of the people attending Harvard make well over the average for a family in North Carolina. I don't see how that dismisses the stereotype that the majority of the school is full of wealth and priviledge.

Sir,

No apology necessary. To clarify, I believe your argument implied that Harvard was disproportionately full of wealth and privilege. I disagreed with that. To add in the unsaid assumptions to your words:

My theory: a greater portion of Ivy league med students went to Ivy League undergrad. A great portion of Ivy League Undergrads are uber rich. [This is different from "regular" schools, where most people come from normal backgrounds.] I bet a good chunk of old-money hah-vahd folks don't have too much trouble finding the dough for school. [Unlike the rest of us poor schmucks.]

My counter-argument was not that there isn't wealth at Harvard (the upper middle-class is certainly the norm), but that such affluence is generally no different than that of many American families privileged enough to send their sons and daughters to university. Yes, it is true that three-quarters of Harvard families make more than $80,000, but it is also true that the average student at the University of North Carolina comes from an $80,000 household as well. I was arguing that the socio-economic backgrounds of the two student groups are more similar (thankfully) than one might presume (with notable exceptions, of course).

In conclusion, sir:
1. I believe your assertion that "a great portion of Ivy League Undergrads are uber rich" is false. (A very small minority is uber rich -- the rest of us are not.)
2. I believe your assertion that "hah-vahd folks don't have too much trouble finding the dough for school" is false. (More than two-thirds at Harvard receive financial aid, and I have plenty of friends who had to sacrifice more than one might think to attend.)
3. I believe your implication that Harvard is uniquely full of rich people -- and that other schools are not -- is false. (Please refer above.)

In the end, sir, it's just semantics and stereotypes. Bottomline, all of us who went to college -- let alone graduate school -- in these here United States should consider ourselves very blessed folk, indeed, and we should make the most of our opportunities.

BigNavyPedsGuy

You said you had thoughts on why Ivy Leaugers don't join the military: what are they?

Sir, I think a lot of it comes down to individuality. For better or for worse, most of my peers find themselves in the extraordinary position of being able to pick jobs/grad schools with greater ease than that of the average college graduate. Since service in the military is seen by the vast majority of Ivy-Leaguers as an unnecessary infringement on their pay, professional opportunities and personal freedoms, the rhetorical question becomes: "Why bother?"

I personally disagree, and once upon a time, so did many Harvard folks: http://www.harvardregiment.org/

Then again, I think I'm somewhat of an idealist, sir:
"The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards." Sir William Butler (UK LtGen)

Thank you for your service, sir. Much respect to the physicians who treat Sailors and Marines!

V/R,
4401
 
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I apologize for the attitude in my earlier posts. But your argument is terrible. The link about Carolina says that $80,000 is well over the average for families in North Carolina. And the article is upset about that discrepancy.

Your second link is the one that really hurts your argument. It says that three quarters of Harvard families make more than $80,000. So your sources say: three quarters of the people attending Harvard make well over the average for a family in North Carolina. I don't see how that dismisses the stereotype that the majority of the school is full of wealth and priviledge.

You said you had thoughts on why Ivy Leaugers don't join the military: what are they?
<snipped>

Finally, $80k is two parents humping $20/hour jobs. Hardly glamorous or "privileged".
 
Sir,

No apology necessary. To clarify, I believe your argument implied that Harvard was disproportionately full of wealth and privilege. I disagreed with that. To add in the unsaid assumptions to your words:

My theory: a greater portion of Ivy league med students went to Ivy League undergrad. A great portion of Ivy League Undergrads are uber rich. [This is different from "regular" schools, where most people come from normal backgrounds.] I bet a good chunk of old-money hah-vahd folks don't have too much trouble finding the dough for school. [Unlike the rest of us poor schmucks.]

My counter-argument was not that there isn't wealth at Harvard (the upper middle-class is certainly the norm), but that such affluence is generally no different than that of many American families privileged enough to send their sons and daughters to university. Yes, it is true that three-quarters of Harvard families make more than $80,000, but it is also true that the average student at the University of North Carolina comes from an $80,000 household as well. I was arguing that the socio-economic backgrounds of the two student groups are more similar (thankfully) than one might presume (with notable exceptions, of course).

In conclusion, sir:
1. I believe your assertion that "a great portion of Ivy League Undergrads are uber rich" is false. (A very small minority is uber rich -- the rest of us are not.)
2. I believe your assertion that "hah-vahd folks don't have too much trouble finding the dough for school" is false. (More than two-thirds at Harvard receive financial aid, and I have plenty of friends who had to sacrifice more than one might think to attend.)
3. I believe your implication that Harvard is uniquely full of rich people -- and that other schools are not -- is false. (Please refer above.)

In the end, sir, it's just semantics and stereotypes. Bottomline, all of us who went to college -- let alone graduate school -- in these here United States should consider ourselves very blessed folk, indeed, and we should make the most of our opportunities.



Sir, I think a lot of it comes down to individuality. For better or for worse, most of my peers find themselves in the extraordinary position of being able to pick jobs/grad schools with greater ease than that of the average college graduate. Since service in the military is seen by the vast majority of Ivy-Leaguers as an unnecessary infringement on their pay, professional opportunities and personal freedoms, the rhetorical question becomes: "Why bother?"

I personally disagree, and once upon a time, so did many Harvard folks: http://www.harvardregiment.org/

Then again, I think I'm somewhat of an idealist, sir:
"The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards." Sir William Butler (UK LtGen)

Thank you for your service, sir. Much respect to the physicians who treat sailors and Marines!

respectfully,
S/F,
4401

We agree on most points, and you present a good argument. I don't really have much else to say. I think we especially agree on Sir William Butler's line of thinking.


And seriously, can we ban westside? He isn't in medicine or the military.
 
And seriously, can we ban westside? He isn't in medicine or the military.
You know, I missed where it said in the terms of membership that I had to be either.

This board is a tremendous repository of information and last I checked, nobody appointed you Grand Poobah of the Flame. If you don't like me being around, tough tatas, I have as much of a right to be here as you do, which is to say none.

I obviously have a vested interest in all there is to know about military medicine. I mean, why do you hate freedom so much, Osama? :)
 
You're suprised by the response you get from posters here? It was only a few months ago you popped up and told us that: (1) You're neither in the military, nor in medicine; and (2) you want to get your girlfriend out of her HPSP commitment because you don't feel like moving, even if it requires unethical methods.

Your subsequent posts lecture us on the nature of the military and military medicine, with periodic trashings of a system you're not involved in.

Did you really expect kudos from the people here?
I never expected flowers at my feet, but I also certainly didn't expect someone to be so close minded that he campaigns for my expulsion because he doesn't like what I say, or that I have the temerity to read this board. That seems a little absurd, don't you think?
 
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