Why on earth would you go to med school?

[Nilf]

Your drift, from the above quotes, is that you pretty clearly went into medicine for the money, only to realize that there is more elsewhere. If this wasn't first and foremost on your mind, you wouldn't be worrying so much about keeping up with the Jones'es Which is why you needed to have a better reason to go into medicine. As does anyone who is going down this road.

I don't know what your reasons to go to medical school are, but rest assured, most of them don't exist.

I've stated mine before, and I'll repeat it here: to have a secure, prestigious, well compensated and intellectually challenging career. I did find my niche in medicine, and I'm happy. I do think that I would be happier if I didn't go to medschool.

However.

Many of you will not find such a niche, and you'll be miserable. More and more with every passing year.

Most of the responses that I've got go along the lines: I don't like anything else (don't like researche, don't like sales, don't like kids, etc), so I will go to medschool. That's EXACTLY what I was like 8 years ago. Going into medicine by 'default' is NOT a good reason. Ask yourself a question... If you don't like anything... what makes you think you'll like medicine?

So you have a family friend who is a doctor. You've shadowed him in his office. Maybe you've even attended some surgeries, maybe you've volunteered in a local ER. So you think you're making a well-informed, mature decision... but trust me... You have NO IDEA what it's like to be a physician. It's kind of like the difference between watching a game of football, and actually playing it.

I don't wanna make this post too long, so I'll post my thoughts on money in the next one

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[prettymonkey]

I would also add that a "cost-benefit" analysis sounds like a horrible way to choose a profession.

it actually made me laugh out loud. not only because it is a horrible way to choose a profession, but his explanation of a "cost-benefit analysis" makes no sense. i am no economist but a cost benefit analysis would mean that you take the benefits in monetary terms of a decision (future income) and subtract the costs of that decision (no income for years and debt).

"It's because I sat down, and made a cost-benefit analysis of my past 10 years. I made two columns. In one of them, I added all those countless hours, medschool debt, personal sacrifices, etc. Add them up. Make another column, and put everything that you WOULD have achieved if you didn't go to medschool. You may look at your old college friends and what they do now. Now add both columns together. That's the true cost of career in medicine."

this is not a cost benefit analysis. here is a very simplified cost benefit analysis:

costs:
tuition: 4 years of med school @ $50,000 = $200,000
lost wages: 4 years @ $40,000 (job with BS degree high end) = $160,000
other costs would include frustration, sleep deprivation, time with family, friends, etc. the price would be determined by willingness to pay (need a survey or personal decision)

benefits
salary: 30 years @ $150,000 (low end salary) - $60,000 (no med school career) = $
other benefits include prestige, pride in your work, job satisfaction etc. the price would be determined by willingness to pay)

i am going to assume that frustrations and pride balance (optimistic pre-med) so we will just use the costs and benefits calculated above:
benefits - costs = $ 2,340,000

this is just somewhere to start from. please add or edit.

 

[brianmartin]

Sure Nilf, you could've taken your 200k in tuition and bought a BMW and a condo, so what? Why do you care about such trivialities?

So you have a family friend who is a doctor. You've shadowed him in his office. Maybe you've even attended some surgeries, maybe you've volunteered in a local ER. So you think you're making a well-informed, mature decision... but trust me... You have NO IDEA what it's like to be a physician.

That's life. Nobody knows exactly what the future will be. Do you think somebody entering law school knows exactly what it's like to be a lawyer? Someone without kids knows what it's like to be a parent?

Not knowing the intimate details of your future is normal and expected. Life is short and you kinda have to "just do it."

 

[Phoenix.]

Ok, I like this chronology idea. Here are the ideas I had for what I "wanted to be" and what I actually was at different times in my life:

High School: FBI agent, marine biologist (neither happened)
College: Museum curator/art gallery; Bioethics (neither happened - but thought law would be a stepping stone to bioethics)
Law School: Judge (clerked & decided being a judge was too much politics), then Intellectual Property Attorney (after enjoying the class and learning I didn't have a science background for bioethics)
Post-Law school: Stints in the tax and then trusts & estates departments, but ended up an intellectual property attorney at a big NYC law firm. Then a corporate bankruptcy attorney. Now a corporate attorney.
Lawyer: Doctor (starting 2008).

I can't say my journey was exhaustive, but I think I certainly know myself much better now than I did when I was in college. I don't envy you guys having to make this type of a decisions straight out of college.

 

[Gut Shot]

Is 10-12 year commitment really worth a career whose future is very uncertain? Think about it...

I'm almost done with my residency now. There is no way I would do it over if I could turn back the clock 8 years. I don't mean to flame... I'm just amazed how premeds could be so brainwashed to flock into medical schools in ever increasing numbers. There are so many other careers out there, which do not carry such a tremendous opportunity cost.

OMFG... have you ever been on a career path other than medicine? Jesus, try making it with a PhD these days. Five years grad school plus five years postdoc (give or take five years) and you can be an assistant prof, making 50-60K and scrabbling to get one of the 8% of NIH grants that are funded.

Medicine is a study in delayed gratification. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Yes, you will be sinking in debt while some of your friends are making better livings. In the long run, however, there are few jobs that have the combined flexibility, job security and income potential of medicine. If you weren't ready for the long haul, turn your incredulity towards yourself rather than a bunch of anonymous premeds.

Sincerely,

Gut Shot, MD, PhD, PGY-3 pathology resident, fellowship-bound

 

[Jolie South]

I can't say my journey was exhaustive, but I think I certainly know myself much better now than I did when I was in college. I don't envy you guys having to make this type of a decisions straight out of college.

Not that I'm old and wise or anything, but I was effing clueless straight out of college. It took working at several jobs post graduation to realize what's important to me and what interests me.

Without "real job" working experience, it's hard to know what you want out of a career and what you don't.

 

[skyeblue0610]

Phoenix, I give you and Law2Doc major props for making that big of a change. I'm deciding before I get in either. But you both have been lawyers and now on the road to being a doctor wow. That's like going from being a president of a country to a king or queen or prime minister (depending on WHO actually runs the country). I know bad analogy but close enough, you get what I'm saying

 

[smq123]

are you kidding??? Doctor is probably is one of the most secure jobs out there. I mean, why would all the people just all of a sudden stop falling sick? Yeah, you can say that physicians aren't being compensated as they used to, they are losing their independence to CEOs of insurance companies and the government, etc. but to say that doctors' future is very uncertain is rubbish. The number of medical school seats is very tightly regulated and there is projected to be a HUGE physician shortage in the future, especially with all these baby boomers retiring.

C'om dude, I think you are troll

* Nilf's post history CLEARLY shows that he is truly a path resident, and is not a troll. If you really plan on being a med student, learn to do some research before saying anything.

* Yes, doctors are losing independence to insurance companies and the government. They're losing their scope of practice to CRNAs, RNs, LPNs, PAs, etc. CYA medicine literally dictates how we practice medicine today.

I love drawing and recording music too, but I love science a lot more than art and music - i'd rather be at a job that intellectually stimulates me rather than in a field where I earn my bread by selling artwork or playing on stage.

You know, I hear this "intellectually stimulating career" stuff from pre-meds a lot, and it makes me wonder if any of them are paying attention when shadowing in doctor's offices.

If you do primary care, the majority of your practice will be managing cocaine-related chest pain, or questionable asthma exacerbation, or "colds." None of this stuff is particularly intellectually stimulating.

At work today, I spent ONE hour learning about electrolyte abnormalities - and THREE hours on the phone with social workers, physical therapists, and nutritionists. Basically, I played "social worker" today for my patients. This is what my residents do a lot, too. There's some intellectual stimulation, but a lot of it is just trying to navigate our social services systems.

If I go into medicine, I know that even though I may not live a glamorous life, I'll live comfortably after finishing my studies, and I'd be able to do various things with my degree. I wish to volunteer here and there, and I travel a lot - so I could go to different countries and provide care alongside others part of a medical organization.

Why does every pre-med seem to assume that doing international volunteer work is easy to arrange? It's not. If you're in private practice, your schedule is more flexible - but your partners will hate you if you just leave for 3 months and force them to cover your patients. Doctors without Borders doesn't need THAT many people.

And clinical medicine may suck, but the way I look at it is that these people who come in sick are actually sick - it may have become a chore to you, but the majority of these people (excluding the drug seekers) are in pain.

They're in pain, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they need a doctor.

If you come to the ER because you have the "flu," what do you want the doctor to do for you? No, antibiotics will not help.

Sure, your chest is hurting right now, and your heart feels like it will jump out of your ribcage. Snorting cocaine has a tendency to do that to you. (Which is, by the way, EXACTLY what we told you the last time you came to the ER for "chest pain.") And no, we will not give you a voucher for a taxicab, or even the bus. If you hadn't bought the cocaine in the first place, you'd have enough money for the subway, AND you wouldn't have chest pain - solving two problems at once!

I canNOT help you if you insist on lying to me. We'll get a lot farther if you just admit that you cheated on your wife with a hooker. I may look young, but I know enough to be certain that "jock itch" does NOT present with chancres. And nobody gets that kind of purulent discharge just from using a public toilet.

And please stop playing members of the staff against each other. If you tell me something, and then tell the nurse the polar opposite, and we compare notes and realize that you're just playing games with us, we WILL find a reason to do serial ABGs on you. Just stop wasting our time, and we'll all be much happier.

I have explored all the other fields that I can see myself doing, but I always end up thinkging about medicine. Yes, theres a lot of costs involved, and yes there's tons of sacrifice and many years go by during educaiton and training. But there's where my happiness lies, and no amount of money can buy happiness.

Grand words indeed. And, from your personal experience, it's obvious that you like healthcare. Fine.

But why do you have to be a DOCTOR? Why didn't you want to be a physician's assistant, or a nurse, or a physical therapist, or a CRNA, or an EMT? They're also important healthcare providers, but with a smaller opportunity cost. This is the question that pre-meds never seem to answer very well. They just keep repeating the same things ("But I really like medicine!") over and over again.

Also, if you could clarify HOW the medical field is gonna change tremendously, I'd appreciate it. It's not like doctors will run out of jobs - they will still be compensated well - just not compensated as much as they want to be, probably. But doesnt everyone want more money for the work they do?

* You will be forced to change your practice of medicine based on your fear of getting sued. The medical malpractice situation is getting insane in many parts of the country.

Your fear of getting sued will force you to complete a lot of extra unnecessary paperwork. You'll be forced to work up patients that you KNOW do not have anything wrong with them, but, again - fear of getting sued.

* Some specialties are in danger of losing their scope of practice. Anesthesia is the biggest one (i.e. CRNAs are taking over in some parts of the country), although family practice may see a bigger threat in coming years.

If you think it's "all about money," then you clearly haven't investigated medicine enough.... Read more about frivolous lawsuits, and, for instance, how the INSANELY high medical malpractice rates in PA have forced some hospitals and maternity wards to close down. Doctors are losing power and losing ground in some parts of the country...it's a little discouraging to be a third year med student, and really wonder what kind of future you can look forward to, to be honest.

 

[Phoenix.]

So you have a family friend who is a doctor. You've shadowed him in his office. Maybe you've even attended some surgeries, maybe you've volunteered in a local ER. So you think you're making a well-informed, mature decision... but trust me... You have NO IDEA what it's like to be a physician. It's kind of like the difference between watching a game of football, and actually playing it.

That's very true. Ditto for law tv shows, law school, and then the reality of being a lawyer. But at least law school is only three years and no residency, so you can pay off your loans quickly and move on when you realize you have gotten yourself into something that is clearly not your calling. But then again, there are those golden handcuffs....

Anyway, I appreciate your posting your ideas, but in the end, everyone has to live their own lives and come to their own conclusions. What you see as miserable may be another person's dream.

 

[Phoenix.]

Phoenix, I give you and Law2Doc major props for making that big of a change. I'm deciding before I get in either. But you both have been lawyers and now on the road to being a doctor wow. That's like going from being a president of a country to a king or queen or prime minister (depending on WHO actually runs the country). I know bad analogy but close enough, you get what I'm saying

Thanks!

So, you're saying lawyer = president and doctor = monarch?

 

[Nilf]

To the OP: I don't want to be disrespectful, and I completely understand than many physicians feel both frustrated and let down, but you keep referring to a "cost-benefit" analysis. Life really cant be broken into a simple pros and cons, cost analysis survey. For every unhappy doctor, such as yourself, there is one who loves his or her job. My neighbor is a neonatal specialist and says that she loves it more than anything. As for 10-12 years of training, that really isn't too bad when you think about it either. In any profession, you must rise on the corporate ladder- how many CFOs or directors simply get placed there after a bachelor's degree? None really. Most get an MBA- two to three years, then work for many years, many hours per day, almost everyday of the year, to have that type of life. With any profession, sacrifices must be made, and medicine really isn't any different.

I very satisfied with my specialty, and I love what I'm doing.

However.

Increasing numbers of physicians are not. Increasing number of physicians are quitting medicine alltogether. Those are real trends people.

Sure that most careers require you to pay dues. The point I'm trying to make, is that in medicine the dues are WAY to high. Admittedly it's a subjective call, but backed by historical data. Do a google search on how many physicians quit their profession past year, and 20 years ago.

You are about to embark on the biggest investment of your life. I believe that most of you are NOT well informed on all the risks and benefits of this investment.

 

[joco7788]

I just wanted to save the world! Can doctors still do that?

 

[Twiigg]

That's very true. Ditto for law tv shows, law school, and then the reality of being a lawyer. But at least law school is only three years and no residency, so you can pay off your loans quickly and move on when you realize you have gotten yourself into something that is clearly not your calling. But then again, there are those golden handcuffs....

Law school is only three years!?

 

[nevercold]

Your 'love of science', 'thinking', 'offering people life in quantity and quality' strikes me of a platitude, no offence.

I did take offense to that comment at first. Then I realized that you may have said it because you may not have an understanding of why a person might value those things. For the sake of the rest of this board, I do not want to spend the time explaining my valuation of each of those points. The statement I made was sincere and I can easily deliver a lengthy explanation of each point. Fortunately, I know that most of the readers here share my passion for each. I am sorry that you are not able to understand this sort of passion and I hope that one day you will be able to.

 

[myKuduSlewaZulu]

I'm with Jolie and Gutshot. Work a FT job in another field and medicine won't look quite as bad.

 

[Auron]

nilf, if you could do it over again what career would you have pursued and why?

What made you decide to go into medicine in the first place?

 

[MsJLewis]

I believe that most of you are NOT well informed on all the risks and benefits of this investment.

Well then go ahead and educate. Present a balanced, fair and reasonable assessment of becoming a physician.

 

[skyeblue0610]

Thanks!

So, you're saying lawyer = president and doctor = monarch?

In a way kind of
People can utterly despise their president. Consider them a weasel, money/power hungry, ego tripping, etc.
But they do hold their monarchs in a very high regard, no matter what.

 

[deleted36260]

Nilf, did you go highschool -> college -> med school??? No breaks for working a career job??

I'm curious as to where you are coming from.I'm a career changer starting med school this year. I think that you are right in saying that many pre-meds don't know what they are getting themselves into. I'd like to think that due to a large part of my background, I'm not one of them. Naive? Maybe. But I can't see it right now. Hopefully never.

I do think that your post style is just going stoke the "they say I can't do it, so I'm going to do it to prove them wrong!!" fires in most of the pre-meds who are reading it.

 

[brianmartin]

Trust me, I am aware of the problems in medicine, especially primary care. While I don't live with these problems, I read the news and talk with doctors about it...and it's clear that PCP's are getting their a**es kicked right now. With decreasing compensation and "pay-per-procedure" policies, primary doctors are forced to run huge volume practices, pass work off to disparate "teams" of specialists who run unnecessary tests, etc. Believe me, it's a huge question in my mind. What if I do end up liking general medicine? Will I become an internist, fully aware that being in practice might suck very hard? This is the reason behind the primary care shortage...people realize it is thankless work with bottom-end pay. This is one of the biggest problems in health care...hence the loan forgiveness programs for med students matching into family medicine, etc. This is a good step but it doesn't address the core issue...

 

[Tekar]

So much to ponder here...

Increasing numbers of physicians are not. Increasing number of physicians are quitting medicine alltogether. Those are real trends people.

I can say the same for teachers friend...

I very satisfied with my specialty, and I love what I'm doing.

Then why wouldn't you do it over again?

* Yes, doctors are losing independence to insurance companies and the government. They're losing their scope of practice to CRNAs, RNs, LPNs, PAs, etc. CYA medicine literally dictates how we practice medicine today.

So is everyone else.. teachers, engineers, construction, and government jobs included...

If you come to the ER because you have the "flu," what do you want the doctor to do for you? No, antibiotics will not help.

To this.. I say we all will need to become a part of the movement to educate the people how to navigate the helathcare system. Public Service commercials for literacy... why not PSM's discussing care and the idiocy of "Toe Pain" in the ER.


I've read most of the thread and many good points to be made...I spent 2 years teaching thinking it would be intellectually fulfilling or something helping kids..Boy High School teaching is a reality check on that front.. doesn't make it bad... just makes it not work for me. Lots of folks get in early and love it.. lots of folks get in late and love it. It seems to me that you gotta find what works for you... If you look back on your path and don't like where you ended up, perhaps it may be time to look at another path.

It came down to a pretty simple question for med in deciding to switch careers. When looking at the general need of a job and I am drawn to Emergency Medicine for a couple reasons related to this concept. (and the medical field for many others) but here it is.. If the lights go out..can I do what I do. Does my job simply go away when the power goes out. for many, it does. For medicine.. not so much if you're in the right field. Can I do what I love wherever I am and still love doing it and will there be a need for my services for the rest of my life. I believe medicine to be a good fit there for many reasons.

Done rambling and squinting because I don't have my glasses. Good luck in whatever you finally decide to do.

 

[Nilf]

Well then go ahead and educate. Present a balanced, fair and reasonable assessment of becoming a physician.

First of all, start looking beyond medical school before you even enter it. You should realize that different medical specialties offer tremendously different lifestyle and work setting. Try to narrow your choice to some that appeal to you, and do extensive research on it. If possible, make make a visit at a workplace. You're likely to change your 'favorite' specialty, but having an idea what sort of career you want will make decision making much easier.

You won't be able to explore all specialties. Don't worry about it. Once you start medschool, you'll learn more, and you're likely to switch your favorites. However, this research will give you a better idea what 'being a doctor' is like.

Once you've done this kind of homework, you can start weighing pros and cons of entering medschool. Is there a niche in medicine that would satisfy you? Will you be happier as a generalist? Keep in mind that some specialties are very competitive, so you are not guaranteed a spot. Or maybe, you would be happier not doing medicine? Compare a work of, let's say, lawyer or i-banker with that of a surgeon, or radiologist, or pediatrician.

Weigh all options in several broad categories: contact with patients, lifestyle, general stress level, reimbursements. Now, weigh in other careers in similar, parallel categories.

Hope it helps. It's a start, and all depends on your personality and priorities.

 

[nighttrain]

I'm graduating med school this year and loved almost every minute of it, i saw almost every kind of practice setting you can think of and know I can find a place in medicine where I will be happy.

My GF (yes it is possible, even easy, to have a great relationship all through medical school and beyond) is in banking making a quarter-million per year 3 years out of college... and SHE's the one quitting her job and going back to school to find something she actually finds meaningful.

The OP is a miserable bastard, there are many out there. There is always time to leave medicine during med school and residency, just always be thinking about whether or not this is right for you as you go on.

 

[skyeblue0610]

I'm graduating med school this year and loved almost every minute of it, i saw almost every kind of practice setting you can think of and know I can find a place in medicine where I will be happy.

My GF (yes it is possible, even easy, to have a great relationship all through medical school and beyond) is in banking making a quarter-million per year 3 years out of college... and SHE's the one quitting her job and going back to school to find something she actually finds meaningful.

The OP is a miserable bastard, there are many out there. There is always time to leave medicine during med school and residency, just always be thinking about whether or not this is right for you as you go on.

Wow, on both bolded parts. What does she do? And what is she going to be doing now?

 

[Concubine]

Nilf,
It's clear to you that most people posting, including myself, are non-traditional applicants. We've had a bit of time to build experience and maturity before we have decided to pursue medicine. We probably have a bit more realism beaten into us.

The people that aren't posting are the traditional applicants, where your points might hit a bit closer to home. I would encourage some traditional applicants, as in individuals going straight from college to medicine or high school to BS/Medicine, to post.

 

[nevercold]

To the premeds, don't worry. Most of you will love medicine. Like EVERY PROFESSION OR EDUCATIONAL TRACK a few of you will find that this is not the right thing for you. It is a financially expensive and a demanding process, making it "riskier" in that regard.

My perceptions of medicine definitely changed through medical school. I came in wanting to be a neurosurgeon because it seemed like a very cerebral specialty (pun intended) that was very profitable and prestigious but also because it touched on an area of medicine that I felt had a huge impact on people's lives. My understanding of the doctor-patient relationship and of chronic disease really evolved during medical school and I found that my passion was more focused in primary care even though it is not as financially rewarding. I have done multiple rotations in both pediatrics and medicine, working 70+ hours per week. I spent hours on follow-up appointments, talking to insurance companies, arranging social work, and working out assisted living experiences. But even when you know the diagnosis and treatment are easy or formulaic, the impact and process of disease is unique for every patient.

In the end, I have found that medicine still satisfies my need to think critically, explore science, and provide such a meaningful service to other human beings. So much has changed, but those basic principles have not. After interviewing many applicants, I know that most also have principles that drive them and I know that they will find them in medicine, even as it and their understanding of it change.

 

[narretgrez]

Hey Nilf, thanks for your posts. They were down to earth and understandable.

 

[NonTradMed]

I have plenty of friends that make well over 100k per year as bankers, and many more that are engineers making 60k per year with a BS. My friends from my master's program are making 70-80 k/year but you know what? Those jobs like banking, consulting, engineering etc. would bore me to death and they will wake up in 15 years, during an economic downturn, out of a job, and then realize when they take a job for half of what they were making, that the only reason they were at all happy was because of the amount of money that they were making.

Exactly.

Perhaps it's nice to see friends making $80k/yr and having their weekends free, their jobs carries with it its own problem. Most of my engineering friends will max out at $100k in the next ten years (as engineers tend to peak at about 40). They work a lot of hours during rev cycles. They deal with paperwork (heck, I have spend DAYS just one paperwork when I was finishing up a project back when I was a lowly programmer).

They have nice cars (lexus/BMWs) but they also have debt from that car, and monthly payment for the next five years. I'm hardly jealous they drive nicer cars since anyone with a decent credit rating can get a car loans these days....

Some of my engineering friends will move into management, many will probably shuffle into other careers. Few expect to hit the $200k. So I'm baffled when I keep hearing about people who claim all their friends from college with their BS are hitting the $200k jackpot. I'm sure some will, but law and med schools still have the highest percentage of students making $200k than students coming out of undergrad.

I mean, financially, it's probably better to take a job and invest early (I did take a finance class ) but doctors aren't starving. I grew up around a lot of physicians, and even though they've warned about the long hours/loss of autonomy, few ever said that they were not financially comfortable, so I'm not too worried about the money aspect.

Second (and most important) please don't have the absolute misconception that business is some easy world that your beer drinking college buddies stumbled into success with. Business is like anything else in life ... hardwork, talent, *** kissing, and dedication. So please, don't pretend that medicine is the only career that requires paying your dues. Lastly, why don't you drop everything tomorrow and try to start a career on wall street ?? Maybe I-Banking? All stuff that is super easy and you don't have to be extremely talented, top notch ivy leage MBA material to do.

Ditto.

I have one friend who is trying to hit that CEO lotto and it is HARD WORK. He works 80 hours/week FOR YEARS with no guarantee that he'll ever get to be VP (although I'm sure he'll go places). I have another friend who did the 70hr/wk gig for a year to be rewarded with the title of 'group leader' at the end of it (no pay increase).

She's in year 5 at the same company, cutting back to 50-60 hrs/week, and been promoted to a project manager meaning she gets paid $80k/yr. Not too bad but hardly something to be envious about.

Business is all about taking risks. You work hard, and sometimes there's a light at the end of the tunnel, sometimes not. Not even an ivy MBA can save you from that. A few years ago, my friend got an acceptance letter to go to MIT Sloan School of Business (then #4 Bschool) but he decided against it because there were not guarantee he'll get a better position than had he not gone and blown $100k (two years tuition at ivy league bschool) once he graduated.

So I'm often puzzled by the attitude on these boards that "if I wanted to, I could have gone into business and made millions". As if there are a dozen of these million-dollar jobs lying around begging to be taken by former premed/medical students.

I'm with Jolie and Gutshot. Work a FT job in another field and medicine won't look quite as bad.

I third that. I worked in IT as a programmer. Alot of complaints about medicine can be reiterated in the IT world (long hours/low respect/loss of autonomy-no-wait-we-never-had-any!). I would also add outsourcing to India and being replaced by someone who can work for 1/5th your salary as one more complaint.

Btw, anyone ever see "Office Space"? Where the boss asks the main character to come into work on the weekends? I had that happen a few times. I was called back to work on quite a few occasions after I left work. I've been called to get my *** back to work on a nice Saturday because something I wrote broke and they needed to get it working again, but oh, too bad I already had plans to go out with friends.

I've also been told I had mandatory Saturdays on one project I worked on (they paid for lunch though---how nice!). My friend who works in defense contractor says they have mandatory 60 hour work weeks when the cycle is peaking. My mom, when she is busy in research, has regularly put in 12 hour work days plus weekends.

Long hours and loss of autonomy isn't just a problem in the a medical field, it's a problem for most salaried, white collar workers. Doctors are just in the unenviable position of having invested too much into their careers to walk away. Most of my friends can leave their careers and do something else. Hence, doctors, I think, are a bit more disgruntled because they have those ugly golden handcuffs to tend to.

One last thing, my parents are researchers at BigPharm. Their complain about the horrible field of research, how their stuff is getting outsourced scared, how their pay is minuscule compared to the education they have, their lack of autonomy (bschoolers with barely a BS dictate their research), the long hours (sometimes 12 hour days), and they get paid half of what the average doctor gets paid.

To them, it's better to go to med school than stay in research. They can't imagine doing research if they had to do it all over again.

But you know what? One person's trash is another person treasure.

I've researched careers in law as well as other healthcare professions and I've thought about business, there are complaints in almost every field. People complain about pay/hours, the stress, the 'having to listen to other people', the lack of respect.

Are all these jobs just horrible? No. The problem is that there are no perfect jobs. The naive person is one who thinks there must be a mystical pot of gold at the end of the tunnel where you will find a job where you answer to no one, you get paid a lot of money and your work is always interesting.

The sad truth is all jobs will eventually feel like a job after your first six months (that's why it's called "work" and not "play"). But you hope to still derive a sense of satisfaction from it, and occasionally, to make a difference. The key is to find something that will mesh with your personality and your taste. And there is not magically job that will satisfy everyone.


So, with that in mind, after doing some reflecting and research on my own, I decided to do the med school gig, and thus far, I'm been pretty happy with the whole medicine thing. I know my medical days will be monotonous, my boss will be a bastard with a bright smile, my colleagues will aggravate me, and the pay will never seem enough, but I think i will still be happier at the end of the day with my current choice than at my old job. But maybe I won't. However, I don't want to spend the rest of my life always wondering. So here I am.

 

[TheMemoirist]

After lots of soul-searching and the exploration of several career options, I'm about 100% sure I'm going into the best field for me. That being said, I don't even start med school until August, so it's obvious that I still have a long road ahead of me. If I come to hate it in five or six years time, I can't say I wasn't duly warned. But I've given this a lot of thought, and I'm as certain as I can be at this point that medicine is my one true calling.

But that may not be true of everyone.

And in that respect, I think this thread, and others like it, are valuable to a lot of people. Perhaps there are people out there who haven't really considered how difficult and demanding a career in medicine can actually be. For those people, reading this thread might be an eye opener. So, while I hope I'm not in the same position that the OP is in a few years from now--and as insulting as blanket statements as "Why on Earth would you go to med school?" can be--I still think this thread is capable of providing useful insights for a lot of people who may not be totally informed.

I know, for me, that I was turned off of other careers just by reading about the bad stuff that people had to say about it. I considered several career options other than medicine, but I eventually decided against them because of people's complaints about their professions. And in my opinion, if you can be that easily dissuaded from a career, it wasn't for you in the first place. No one who is truly destined to be a physician will be turned away by this thread, but perhaps someone who is on the fence could be spared from making a bad decision. Therefore, maybe it would be beneficial if some posters just let loose. (I hope that doesn't sound disrespectful--it's not intended to at all!)

For those med students, residents, and attendings who really wouldn't do it again--why? As I'm always looking to be more well-informed about the career I'm embarking upon, I'd like to know, and other people probably need to hear your voice to show them why medicine isn't for them.

 

[veggieswirl]

...look at actuarial science. Salaries are literally raising with insurance rates. It is a VERY VERY tough career though and attrition is high. That being said the average retiring actuary brings home 230K a year and 90% of those retiring right now have no education beyond a bacholer's. Actuaries are skilled risk analysis professionals... they set rates on insurance. As attrition is VERY HIGH the PROFESSION IS VERY VERY DEMANDING AND NOT FOR ME... I was SHOCKED to learn the median salary overall in the field is only 95K... http://www.amazon.com/Bringing-Down-House-Students-Millions/dp/0743249992..... two of these guys are now casualty actuarial fellows.. Not many people have even heard of actuaries, but my father is a gov't CPA and when I was pre-med(now I'm pre-pt or pre-ot) I told him I wanted a ferarri.... and he told me to be an actuary because the actuary he works with drives one... which really pissed me off... he's a nice guy though... i passed the first test.. but the field is boring and it takes ten years to get a fellowship. My father's friend drives a Modena and the Aon parking lot in downtown LA is like a luxury car show... not your avg. beamers here.....I'm nervous about posting pictures... but I got to pose with a DIABLO!.... If you guys think malpractice insurance is too high go kick an actuary..... or key up his Enzo! Insurance money is going into someone's pocket i'm telling you!

 

[Revenant]

worked service industry, engineering, some experience with research and litigation...not all jobs are fun...or even close to fun

 

[veggieswirl]

.... The hourly consulting rate for an actuarial fellow in medical risk analysis is $1200. If you don't believe me, ask hospital administrators how much they pay for a risk analysis report.... OR JUST LOOK AT MALPRACTICE INSURANCE!!!! The median salary is 95K and attrition is high. Here in California the lowest 15% of actuaries who have been in the field longer than 20 years earn less than 180K... the salaries are something to envy. Or are they? A Modena isn't cheap.

 

[Nilf]

.... I was SHOCKED to learn the median salary overall in the field is only 95K... http://www.amazon.com/Bringing-Down-House-Students-Millions/dp/0743249992..... two of these guys are now casualty actuarial fellows.. Not many people have even heard of actuaries, but my father is a gov't CPA and when I was pre-med(now I'm pre-pt or pre-ot) I told him I wanted a ferarri.... and he told me to be an actuary because the actuary he works with drives one... which really pissed me off... he's a nice guy though... i passed the first test.. but the field is boring and it takes ten years to get a fellowship. My father's friend drives a Modena and the Aon parking lot in downtown LA is like a luxury car show... not your avg. beamers here.....I'm nervous about posting pictures... but I got to pose with a DIABLO!.... If you guys think malpractice insurance is too high go kick an actuary..... or key up his Enzo! Insurance money is going into someone's pocket i'm telling you!

One last word. The money matter.

Some of the posters here attempt to undermine my credibility by alleging that money was my primary motivation when I decided to pursue medicine. I won't lie to you: it was one of them, but it was not the only one, and certainly not the most important one. If you try to tell me that you never considered reimbursement issue while choosing medicine, I'll laugh in your face.

Look what residencies are the most competitive, as judged by the number of applicants that did NOT match: neurosurgery, derm, radonc, maybe some radiology. Do you know what is their common denominator? Because they offer a combination of high reimbursement and good lifestyles, as seen by dollars per hour worked. I'm not making it up, people, look it up, or better yet, ask a fellow medical student.

Conclusion: medical students tend to gravitate towards the fields that pay well and with reasonable hours. Most of you will, too.

 

[annndyr]

I greatly appreciate all of the posts by Nilf, Law2Doc, Phoenix, etc. Fair and balanced. Many of the other posts, however, seem so defensive and arrogant. No one has to defend their position or challenge another's point of view. Accept the posts as opinions, place a value on them, and move on.

I, personally, am 1.5 yrs out of school and leaving an 80k/yr job for an acceptance to a class of 2012. I'm fairly certain I'll be happy, but only time will tell.

I will say that it's nice to be able to afford material possesions and not have to order off the dollar menu at Wendy's all the time.

 

[diagnodent]

I think NILF should be congradulated for speaking the truth. I think it is great for someone who has been in the working force for 5 years and are around 30 to realize that they wanted to be a physician. I think they know what they want and have the life experience to realize the sacrifices they will make.

I just highly doubt the young 20 somethings who think being a physician is going to bring them prestige, respect and possibly money later on.

I go out to dinner with a group of 40's physicians occasionally and they are always amazed at my life. BTW, I'm a dentist, out about 6 years, close to 30, and make middle 6's, only work 4 days/week. All of these Dr's went to school young and didn't realize what life was like...they all thought life would be great and they would be taken care of b/c they are dr's. They are all seeing shrinking ins. reimbursements even though they get more experienced and thus should earn more money. They work more on paperwork than they want to.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade or tell them being a dentist is great b/c I know plenty of dentist's who aren't at my status. I just think it is an intelligent decision to realize that salaries range from low to high in every occupation and very few achieve the high. Also, you never know what you do in profession until you are actually in the profession. It is easy to discount everything nilf says b/c you don't want to believe it. And also prestige and respect is steadily decreasing for physicians and 50 cents and prestige won't buy a cup of coffee these days.

 

[45408]

and who are these peers that are driving beamers now? I've been out of undergrad for 4 years now and none of my friends are banking.

A beamer is a car? Is that like a big flashlight on wheels? Are are you referring to a bimmer?

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Let’s say your business friends make 100,000 per year, drive BMWs and live in a condo but they have no meaning. You chose medicine, are in debt, drive an 1988 astrovan and live in a shack, but you get the benefit of doing something meaningful.

That's pretty condescending to people who are in business. You could say that you'd find medicine to be meaningful and business to be meaningless, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that they "have no meaning".

And get real, pretty much any doctor makes 100K+, although you start earning money later and have to pay off your loans.

 

[45408]

But you know what? One person's trash is another person treasure.

Exactly.

 

[majik1213]

I did take offense to that comment at first. Then I realized that you may have said it because you may not have an understanding of why a person might value those things. For the sake of the rest of this board, I do not want to spend the time explaining my valuation of each of those points. The statement I made was sincere and I can easily deliver a lengthy explanation of each point. Fortunately, I know that most of the readers here share my passion for each. I am sorry that you are not able to understand this sort of passion and I hope that one day you will be able to.

more realistically, the passion is ineffable. I couldn't even explain it if I tried. If asked in an interview, I simply say it's an inherent personality trait I have .. I like to make things better, and am particularly turned on when I can apply this improvement process to human beings .. also, I'm damn good at science

 

[mdgator]

I am a traditional student. (One year off after medical school) Some of my thoughts about why I’m going into medicine, and why the OPs statements aren’t troublesome to me.

1. Most of my life, my family was lower to mid middle class. My family lives in a 20 year old, $30,000 house. I drove a 10-year-old lemon that cost 4 grand until I got a new car this year; spent 12K on it. I’ve never had expensive vacations to exotic destinations. Never been out of the country. In fact, I’ve never been out of the Southeast, or even on an airplane. I know from experience that money does not = happiness, because I’ve never had money, and yet I can’t imagine being any happier than I am right now. My only financial goals: be able to pay back my med school debt; be able to provide for my family. I am confident that no matter what branch of medicine I choose, and no matter what changes medicine undergoes, I will be able to achieve these goals.
2. I love biomedical science. It stimulates me, excites me, and intrigues me like nothing else. I do not see spending four years in medical school so much as a sacrifice as I see it as an opportunity to learn about the things that I’ve always loved learning about. I do not want to go into research because I want a job that centers on interaction with people. I learned this from experiences with past jobs. I loved the ones in which I constantly interacted with people, and I disliked the ones in which I didn’t, even though otherwise they were pretty much the exact same jobs.
3. Medicine will allow me to see and do unique and amazing things. During my training, I will see human bodies mangled by auto accidents and other forms of trauma; I will be involved in battles to bring people back from the brink of death; I will watch people afflicted with cancer and be amazed at how they muster the strength each day to fight on; I’ll see the miracle that is the beginning of human life; I’ll place my hands inside the thoracic cavities of living people; I’ll watch families cope with the death of their loved ones; I’ll give children the medications that will alleviate their suffering; I’ll work on a daily basis with brilliant and amazing people. I know that the vast majority of medical practice is far from glamorous or appealing. I know that at times it will be frustrating. But I can still think of very few if any career paths that will give me the privilege and opportunity to see such a variety of amazing things.
4. I could be a nurse, EMT, PA, etc and get many of the same satisfactions that come with medicine, true. But why would I? Those are great jobs and I am thankful for the people that do them, but for me personally, it’s like this: I derive a lot of satisfaction from overcoming difficulties and adversities to accomplish things that I can be proud of. I don’t think this is unusual. People don’t run marathons because the 26th mile physically feels really good. In fact, as a novice runner myself, I can imagine that it’s probably pure agony for most people. They don’t do it for health benefits either. It is not more healthy to run 50 miles a week than it is to run 20. In fact, I’ve heard it said that maximum benefit from cardiovascular exercise is derived at somewhere around 15 miles per week over a long term, consistent basis. People run marathons because it’s an accomplishment. It’s something they can always be proud of. It’s something that the vast majority of people can’t do. I’m not saying that other health care jobs are easy by any means. But I am saying that there are few jobs that require the sacrifice, diligence, hard work, and determination that becoming and being a physician entails. Becoming and being a physician will be a source of pride that brings a sense of satisfaction all on its own, much like being able to say I once ran the Boston Marathon. (Also, yes, I said before that money is not a huge motivator for me, but if the sacrifices and work are not a dissuasion for me, why not take the path that will lead to making $150K+ rather than 40, 50, or $80K?)
5. I come from a rural community with a very low standard of health care and very limited accessibility. There are 4 or 5 doctors in my whole hometown, most of which have been practicing for 30 years or more and are nearing the end of their careers. I feel like I can make a significant impact on my community if I choose to return there. Although I cannot say for sure that I want to go into primary care at this point, I definitely can see it giving me the greatest sense of purpose, and I think that if medicine does indeed undergo drastic changes in the years to come, there will be a greater need for primary care in general. It may be the best way for me to do something truly needed and meaningful.

I have very strong feelings about wanting to be a physician that really can’t easily be put into words. I just feel that it is my niche. That being said, it is not for everyone. If the OP is dissatisfied with his career choice, it’s fine for him to express this. It is even fine for him to warn pre meds like us that we may possibly feel the same way he does one day, and we should seriously consider and reconsider if this is what we really want. What is not okay is making statements like this:

EVEN NOW medicine is simply not a good option to a twentysomething with college education in the US.

Maybe it was not a smart choice FOR YOU, OP. But it is definitely not your place to declare that "medicine is simply not a good option." Medicine is a noble, relatively lucrative, intellectually stimulating, challenging profession that the vast majority of physicians find to be rewarding, overall. It is true that many pre-meds have some misconceptions about what practicing medicine is like. It is true that the future of medicine is uncertain in many respects. But whether or not a person will find it to be a rewarding career is largely dependent upon personal factors, unique to each person, depending on where he or she places his values. Some of my future colleagues and classmates will become dissatisfied and disillusioned by medicine. We will all, at times, question whether we made the right choices. However, most of us will ultimately be very happy with our choices. I hope that you will ultimately be happy with yours, or that you will find a career that you are satisfied with. (Sorry about the extremely long post, for those of you who read it)

 

[Dmizrahi]

I'm sadistic and love putting myself through extremely mentally and physically exhaustive processes.

I'm sorry but nothing can replace the exhilaration of working with a team to keep a toddler alive that is minutes away from coding.

Oh and I don't let corporate guilt and materialism determine my lifestyle or life choices. You can be sour about your poor investments, BMW, condo you don't have and continue to be a slave to yourself.

Medicine is right for me.

 

[coldweatherblue]

lol, I like the cost benefit thing.. lol. These decisions cannot be rationalized by giving immaterial thoughts and ideas (such as how "happy" you are or how "happy" your business friends are) monetary characteristics and aligning them in a table. You make decisions about your life and it is up to you how you fulfill the obligations that come with those decisions. Do we know what a privilege it is to have the opportunity to become educated? No one appreciates this (I know I don't...) because we are too apt to expect too much comfort and relaxation in our lives, but a privilege it remains.

Not to rewrite my amcas essay but... why am I'm going (c/o 2012) to med school?

I like going to school and learning. I've always been able to go to school and maintain a fun, balanced social life without too much effort. I've taken 17+ hrs upper division undergrad courses and worked 30 hrs/week and still felt like I wasted too much free time. Many of the posters on here have probably scored ~2+ standard deviations above the norm on the standardized tests they've taken (Iowa, ACT/SAT, MCAT, etc) without too much pain. There comes a point when one realizes his talents and at this point it is his responsibility to WORK to develop those talents. If someone is good at going to school he should work hard and take every opportunity he can in order to develop skills that will use his talents. I would say this applies to most people accepted to med school.. that said I know med-school will be more difficult than anything I have done thus far but I don't doubt that it will also be very rewarding.

A person should have a career. I like working. Right now I work as a waiter and I can go work for 12+ hours and still be in a good mood at the end of the shift... dealing with people's problems/issues and saying the right thing at the right time to placate someone is something I enjoy.

Medicine is a people-oriented profession and that is attractive to me. I have no desire to spend my career doing something related to making money by selling people things they don't need. I just don't care about money made by interest; I want to earn a living by providing a service rather than through usury.

I want a stable career. Going to medical school will give me skills that will guarantee I will be be able to provide a universal service and be compensated for this. I understand that the original poster said something contrary to this in his post about the uncertainty of medicine in the future. I would like to hear more evidence to support his position. Is there a time coming soon where the skills of a physician (the highest-level care provider) will become unnecessary? I don't see it happening.

Finally, regarding money; I work hard to pay my bills and I have financial obligations, etc, but I like to think that even if I had a lot of money I would continue to work because of the enjoyment it gives me. I enjoy owning fine things, but am completely content without them. However I recognize that in order to give my (future) family the proper, healthy lifestyle I myself was given, I will need to be fairly well-compensated. Medicine fits nicely into this as well.

jmh (and naive) opinion. All respect to the original poster as he has personally experienced medical education and I have not.

 

[coldweatherblue]

and who are these peers that are driving beamers now? I've been out of undergrad for 4 years now and none of my friends are banking.

don't need to be banking to roll in a bimmer! The best BMW's are >15 years old anyway. ;-). I bought my car (1988 325i) senior year of high-school with money from serving and have never seriously wanted another car since. But then again I am a bit of a grease-monkey and I will forgive my car for needing repair once a year or so as long as I always enjoy driving it (which I do). anyway, just waxed my car so I'm excited about it... tmi.

 

[suwaifo]

* Nilf's post history CLEARLY shows that he is truly a path resident, and is not a troll. If you really plan on being a med student, learn to do some research before saying anything.

* Yes, doctors are losing independence to insurance companies and the government. They're losing their scope of practice to CRNAs, RNs, LPNs, PAs, etc. CYA medicine literally dictates how we practice medicine today.



You know, I hear this "intellectually stimulating career" stuff from pre-meds a lot, and it makes me wonder if any of them are paying attention when shadowing in doctor's offices.

If you do primary care, the majority of your practice will be managing cocaine-related chest pain, or questionable asthma exacerbation, or "colds." None of this stuff is particularly intellectually stimulating.

At work today, I spent ONE hour learning about electrolyte abnormalities - and THREE hours on the phone with social workers, physical therapists, and nutritionists. Basically, I played "social worker" today for my patients. This is what my residents do a lot, too. There's some intellectual stimulation, but a lot of it is just trying to navigate our social services systems.



Why does every pre-med seem to assume that doing international volunteer work is easy to arrange? It's not. If you're in private practice, your schedule is more flexible - but your partners will hate you if you just leave for 3 months and force them to cover your patients. Doctors without Borders doesn't need THAT many people.



They're in pain, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they need a doctor.

If you come to the ER because you have the "flu," what do you want the doctor to do for you? No, antibiotics will not help.

Sure, your chest is hurting right now, and your heart feels like it will jump out of your ribcage. Snorting cocaine has a tendency to do that to you. (Which is, by the way, EXACTLY what we told you the last time you came to the ER for "chest pain.") And no, we will not give you a voucher for a taxicab, or even the bus. If you hadn't bought the cocaine in the first place, you'd have enough money for the subway, AND you wouldn't have chest pain - solving two problems at once!

I canNOT help you if you insist on lying to me. We'll get a lot farther if you just admit that you cheated on your wife with a hooker. I may look young, but I know enough to be certain that "jock itch" does NOT present with chancres. And nobody gets that kind of purulent discharge just from using a public toilet.

And please stop playing members of the staff against each other. If you tell me something, and then tell the nurse the polar opposite, and we compare notes and realize that you're just playing games with us, we WILL find a reason to do serial ABGs on you. Just stop wasting our time, and we'll all be much happier.



Grand words indeed. And, from your personal experience, it's obvious that you like healthcare. Fine.

But why do you have to be a DOCTOR? Why didn't you want to be a physician's assistant, or a nurse, or a physical therapist, or a CRNA, or an EMT? They're also important healthcare providers, but with a smaller opportunity cost. This is the question that pre-meds never seem to answer very well. They just keep repeating the same things ("But I really like medicine!") over and over again.



* You will be forced to change your practice of medicine based on your fear of getting sued. The medical malpractice situation is getting insane in many parts of the country.

Your fear of getting sued will force you to complete a lot of extra unnecessary paperwork. You'll be forced to work up patients that you KNOW do not have anything wrong with them, but, again - fear of getting sued.

* Some specialties are in danger of losing their scope of practice. Anesthesia is the biggest one (i.e. CRNAs are taking over in some parts of the country), although family practice may see a bigger threat in coming years.

If you think it's "all about money," then you clearly haven't investigated medicine enough.... Read more about frivolous lawsuits, and, for instance, how the INSANELY high medical malpractice rates in PA have forced some hospitals and maternity wards to close down. Doctors are losing power and losing ground in some parts of the country...it's a little discouraging to be a third year med student, and really wonder what kind of future you can look forward to, to be honest.

This is what high school was like so medicine must be a breeze.

 

[Salsa45]

Someone asked it earlier--I`m curious as well. Nilf, what would you have chosen were you to pick now[SIZE=-1]?[/SIZE]

 

[kami333]

But why do you have to be a DOCTOR? Why didn't you want to be a physician's assistant, or a nurse, or a physical therapist, or a CRNA, or an EMT? They're also important healthcare providers, but with a smaller opportunity cost. This is the question that pre-meds never seem to answer very well. They just keep repeating the same things ("But I really like medicine!") over and over again.

Because, no offense to RNs, PAs, EMTs, etc, but those degrees aren't usually considered advanced degrees when applying for visas. With an MD (or PhD) it's easier to get a visa and move to another country if this one goes to pieces

 

[fisko82]

Is 10-12 year commitment really worth a career whose future is very uncertain? Think about it...

There are so many other careers out there, which do not carry such a tremendous opportunity cost.

The grass is always greener on the other side. If you weren't unhappy in medicine, I'm quite certain you'd be unhappy in whatever else you'd find yourself in. In fact, you'd probably always wonder, "What if you had chosen medicine instead?"

Look, I'm no moral authority to give life lessons to anyone, but I'm wise enough to know that life is never as perfect as we imagine it to be. My dad complains about his work as an engineer; he hates the bureaucratic bull**** he goes through on a daily basis. My sister thought she loved teaching, turns out kids can be brats and the parents couldn't care less. It never ends and we're never satisfied.

I don't expect medicine to make me happy, and why should it? It's a job; a means to an end in a field I find interesting, at least that's my take. As disappointing as a career in medicine could be for me, I'm quite certain I'd be just as disappointed with any other field of work.

 

[172858]

- chicks
- access to drugs
- money
- prestige
- chicks
- the opportunity to crack people open
- chicks dig blood stains
- the cash
- autonomy
- to pimp the white coat
- chicks

i think that about covers it all...

 

[135892]

- chicks
- access to drugs
- money
- prestige
- chicks
- the opportunity to crack people open
- chicks dig blood stains
- the cash
- autonomy
- to pimp the white coat
- chicks

i think that about does it...

How can one not want to go into medicine?

 

[Auron]

Because, no offense to RNs, PAs, EMTs, etc, but those degrees aren't usually considered advanced degrees when applying for visas. With an MD (or PhD) it's easier to get a visa and move to another country if this one goes to pieces

This the beauty of an MD - it is recognized world wide. I will be practicing in other countries, and I've done a lot of research and found that an MD from a United States medical school is incredibly versatile and flexible. The sheer options I will have excite me.