Why should DO still be 'seperate but equal' from an MD?

[Dr.TurkandJD]

I don't think anyone is saying it isnt possible. They match people every year to US programs. IMO it is just a complete crapshoot. Especially as a pre-med.

My opinions are a little skewed because everyone I know that went that route, came out with a match. I am just ecstatic that I did not have to do that.

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[SpecterGT260]

My opinions are a little skewed because everyone I know that went that route, came out with a match. I am just ecstatic that I did not have to do that.

Fair enough. I suspect there is a reason you are happy you didnt have to But yes, people do make it through that route. If you (not you, but rhetorically "you") are confident that you are someone who really isn't well represented by your scores then you could reasonably succeed there. If not.... well averages are average for a reason, and the average carib matriculant doesn't do too hot.

 

[NontradCA]

Need a name for this law: Regardless of beginning topic, all pre-osteo SDNs threads if allowed to go on will result in a DO v. MD v. Carib debate.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't think it counts when the OP is any combination of the two already compared

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Need a name for this law: Regardless of beginning topic, all pre-osteo SDNs threads if allowed to go on will result in a DO v. MD v. Carib debate.

(DO=MD)>Caribb

Argument over

 

[NontradCA]

I don't think it counts when the OP is any combination of the two already compared

Ha. I hope he comes back to explain himself.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I'm more hoping our Pirate of the NewYorker friend comes back to explain or further embellish his story.

 

[NontradCA]

I'm more hoping our Pirate of the NewYorker friend comes back to explain or further embellish his story.

Oops, that's who I meant. Interesting premise - lying about being status here is subject to being banned correct? What if he is a pre-med who applies to DO school for real..should such a poser be allowed to be a Physician?

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

Oops, that's who I meant. Interesting premise - lying about being status here is subject to being banned correct? What if he is a pre-med who applies to DO school for real..should such a poser be allowed to be a Physician?

I c where you are going with this...


too soon

 

[HockeyDr09]

Yes, your odds arent abysmal, but they selectively graduate people who show promise of matching and IIRC this is something around 25% of total enrolled per year. Even then their match rate is still something like 60%, isnt it? Just pulling numbers that seem right based on what I read previously. If someone has their actual numbers post them up.

I pulled some numbers last year in one of my stats threads. The data is a little old, but it serves it's purpose as it's probably worse now for Carib grads. I even had a carib student pretty much confirm the numbers.

American University of the Caribbean 2010 Match Data

Anesthesiology - 1
Emergency Medicine - 11
Family Practice - 46
General Surgery - 4
Internal Medicine - 59
Neurology - 3
OB/GYN - 12
Pathology - 1
Pediatrics - 16
Prelim Medicine - 9
Prelim Surgery - 6
Psychiatry Residency - 12
Radiology - 2
Traditional Year - 5
Total 187

~300 students start a year. They have three start dates, January, May, and September. I am trying to find concrete evidence showing their actual enrollment numbers, but they virtually impossible to find.
62% Match



Roughly 340 students start each year at AUC, at different times of the year (Either January, May, September). AUC refuses to list class sizes on their website. My investigations at ValueMD show that the number is actually much closer to 380, but I will lowball the number to give Dr. Fraud the benefit of the doubt.

Of the 340 students that start the program each year, only ~187 match. ~153 students either: A) Drop out in debt or B) Did not match and will have reapply / strengthen their applications with more coursework (additional degrees) or additional research. Dr. Fraud has mentioned that the students who enter AUC who are "confident that they will graduate from their respective program" will match without a problem "95%-99%" of the time. According to this logic the 153 students that didn't make it must have not been confident that they would graduate the program. Do you honestly believe almost half the class that started medical school at AUC were not confident, and felt that they probably weren't going to make it? This IS AUC's data. I am not playing or manipulating the numbers. Their match list is from their site (it's cited) and it was updated to include students who pre-matched / found residencies through another method. You must also take into consideration that many students do NOT match on their first try going through the Caribbean (evidenced by the fact that 1,946 didn't match this year). This means it's impossible to tell how many of the 187 AUC matching students actually matched on their first try.

The above example is why attrition rates are extremely important, and SHOULD be factored into you decision of attending DO or Caribbean MD.

Now to compare AUC's data with a DO school


DMU-COM Class of 2010

Anesthesiology - 9
Emergency Medicine - 26
Family Medicine - 43
Internal Medicine - 30
Medicine-Preliminary - 6
Neurology - 4
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine - OMT 1
Obstetrics - Gynecology - 14
Ophthalmology - 4
Otolaryngology - 1
Pathology -3
Pediatrics -16
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation - 10
Psychiatry - 9
Radiology - Diagnostic - 3
Surgery - General - 6
Surgery - Neurological - 1
Surgery - Orthopaedic - 6
Surgery - Otolaryn & Facial Plastic - 2
Traditional Rotating Internship - 7

Total Students - 201
Started with ~212

95% Match

One start date.

95% of the students that started the program finished. In my opinion their match list is much more impressive as well (This is up to your personal evaluation, but I think most would agree with me). 2 Plastics, 6 Ortho's, 4 Optha, and 1 Oto, is pretty impressive. AUC had 0 matches in all four of those fields.

Quick disclaimer, people who succeed out of the Caribbean are awesome. I have no hate for the Caribbean schools, I just wanted inform what the odds were, because a poster was blatantly lying continuously throughout that thread. Which is a year old.

 

[oms2]

laricb = carib+l
so obvious

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

I pulled some numbers last year in one of my stats threads. The data is a little old, but it serves it's purpose as it's probably worse now for Carib grads. I even had a carib student pretty much confirm the numbers.

But out of 300, how many graduated? If only 200 graduated, thats not that bad. Plus, SGU/Ross is probably better. I think the % is closer to 80, which isnt that bad.


Can someone clarify, what exactly is the rotating internship year? How is that diff then clinical rotations? Do you only have to do that if you don't match?

 

[SpecterGT260]

I pulled some numbers last year in one of my stats threads. The data is a little old, but it serves it's purpose as it's probably worse now for Carib grads. I even had a carib student pretty much confirm the numbers.

Yeah, that attrition rate is the kicker. I have heard that SGU has even larger class sizes than AUC (or... one of the big 4 has ~600/year) with as much or more shadiness going on in their match reports.

I also see an over representation of preliminary or traditional years. There is no telling if they were able to find placement PGY2.

 

[NontradCA]

I c where you are going with this...


too soon

 

[NontradCA]

Yeah, that attrition rate is the kicker. I have heard that SGU has even larger class sizes than AUC (or... one of the big 4 has ~600/year) with as much or more shadiness going on in their match reports.

I also see an over representation of preliminary or traditional years. There is no telling if they were able to find placement PGY2.

So is it that the education is so poor or that they are letting in a caliber of student that can not deal with the cirriculum?

 

[SpecterGT260]

But out of 300, how many graduated? If only 200 graduated, thats not that bad. Plus, SGU/Ross is probably better. I think the % is closer to 80, which isnt that bad.


Can someone clarify, what exactly is the rotating internship year? How is that diff then clinical rotations? Do you only have to do that if you don't match?

That is part of the problem, the carib schools artificially inflate their numbers. You are required to take a mock USMLE before being allowed to sit for the real USMLE, so that they can boast high pass rates. But those are "of those who were allowed to take the test, we have a >90%.... "

They also don't necessarily flunk all of these students out who are not included in that final 200 or so who enter the match. They hold them back, sometimes on a repeating basis. The cynical side of me wants to say "until the money runs out" but I am sure there are other reasons as well.

So, they claim high USMLE pass rate by not allowing a sizable chunk of students to sit for the exam after their second year and they claim high match rates by not graduating another sizable chunk. The odds are not in the favor of the average student entering that system.

 

[SpecterGT260]

So is it that the education is so poor or that they are letting in a caliber of student that can not deal with the cirriculum?

I lean toward the latter, but it is possibly both. High attrition rates point to the caliber of the student. Low match rates of those who graduate point to US programs not trusting their education.

 

[oms2]

an sgu grad told me his class size was like 850.

 

[SpecterGT260]

an sgu grad told me his class size was like 850.

This is closer to what I have heard as well.

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

That is part of the problem, the carib schools artificially inflate their numbers. You are required to take a mock USMLE before being allowed to sit for the real USMLE, so that they can boast high pass rates. But those are "of those who were allowed to take the test, we have a >90%.... "

They also don't necessarily flunk all of these students out who are not included in that final 200 or so who enter the match. They hold them back, sometimes on a repeating basis. The cynical side of me wants to say "until the money runs out" but I am sure there are other reasons as well.

So, they claim high USMLE pass rate by not allowing a sizable chunk of students to sit for the exam after their second year and they claim high match rates by not graduating another sizable chunk. The odds are not in the favor of the average student entering that system.

Makes sense. But to play devils advocate, some US schools do that as well.

 

[NontradCA]

I lean toward the latter, but it is possibly both. High attrition rates point to the caliber of the student. Low match rates of those who graduate point to US programs not trusting their education.

That would make sense, is there data on how many of what nationality match? Canadian, US IMG?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Makes sense. But to play devils advocate, some US schools do that as well.

I am not aware of any. Most (all?) US MD schools use the USMLE as the criteria for whether or not to allow you to move on to the clinic. They do not assess it up front. If you fail you are held back a year. That is different from now allowing poorly performing students from taking the test at all. This is also excluding things like dismissal for academic performance... The impact on %s is pretty different.

I am not knocking your friends who went this route. If they are making it through then they are either among the lucky ones or were exceptionally talented among their classmates. All I am saying, and I think you agree based on other things you said, is that the carib route is the least assured of any towards becoming a physician.

That would make sense, is there data on how many of what nationality match? Canadian, US IMG?

Only what they publish, and it is subject to the aforementioned issues so...

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

I am not aware of any. Most (all?) US MD schools use the USMLE as the criteria for whether or not to allow you to move on to the clinic. They do not assess it up front. If you fail you are held back a year. That is different from now allowing poorly performing students from taking the test at all. This is also excluding things like dismissal for academic performance... The impact on %s is pretty different.

I am not knocking your friends who went this route. If they are making it through then they are either among the lucky ones or were exceptionally talented among their classmates. All I am saying, and I think you agree based on other things you said, is that the carib route is the least assured of any towards becoming a physician.



Only what they publish, and it is subject to the aforementioned issues so...

I am not saying you are knocking anyone and we agree 100% on this issue. Just like playing devils advocate.

I believe a few DO schools make you take a practice COMLEX before you are allowed to take the real one. Just not sure if its practice or if they fail the practice, they are not allowed to take the real one.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I am not saying you are knocking anyone and we agree 100% on this issue. Just like playing devils advocate.

I believe a few DO schools make you take a practice COMLEX before you are allowed to take the real one. Just not sure if its practice or if they fail the practice, they are not allowed to take the real one.

Ok just making sure. You mentioned friends there and are taking the side of defense so it was hard to tell

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[MedPR]

Can you imagine taking three 8 hour exams over the course of <8 weeks (I'm assuming COMLEX is 8 hours like USMLE). Must suck.

 

[Siggy]

Is champagne thats made in America really champagne?

No, it's sparkling wine. Champagne comes from France... period.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

No, it's sparkling wine. Champagne comes from France... period.

 

[Siggy]

So if Mexico started bottling "Florida Orange Juice" then you would argue that Florida Orange Juice can come from oranges outside of Florida?

 

[Mr Kenobi]

So if Mexico started bottling "Florida Orange Juice" then you would argue that Florida Orange Juice can come from oranges outside of Florida?

Hey I am not arguing anything...just the messenger...your beef is with Korbel.

 

[MedPR]

So if Mexico started bottling "Florida Orange Juice" then you would argue that Florida Orange Juice can come from oranges outside of Florida?

Ya Bro. American cars are made overseas. I hear what you're saying though, I'm the same way when it came mes to bourbon/whiskey.

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[SpecterGT260]

No, it's sparkling wine. Champagne comes from France... period.

This is correct. One company's incompetence and mislabeling doesn't change the rule.

Think bourbon and scotch. You dint wanna mess with that

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[cliquesh]

That would make sense, is there data on how many of what nationality match? Canadian, US IMG?

Overall acgme match rate for US-IMGs was 49.1% last year. 74.6% for DOs, 70% for Canadians, 40% for non us IMGs, and 95.1% for us-MDs.

 

[Ost3oclast]

No, it's sparkling wine. Champagne comes from France... period.

Exactly

 

[Pqrs]

Hey can we bring this thread back to DO v MD? I was looking forward to hearing some misconceptions and having some other posters pretend to be current docs.

 

[Dr.TurkandJD]

No way DO match is 75%. The 25% not matched did an internship year probably.

 

[Mbeas]

No way DO match is 75%. The 25% not matched did an internship year probably.

He was stating ACGME statistics, not the overall match rate (including AOA match). I think it's a combined ~90% match rate.

 

[SpecterGT260]

He was stating ACGME statistics, not the overall match rate (including AOA match). I think it's a combined ~90% match rate.

Just to be clear, you seem to be implying that those who went unmatched in the ACGME may have matched AOA which is not true.

From what I saw it is a near 50/50 split for DOs as to which match they enter. A 75% in the ACGME would warrant a near 100% match rate in the AOA (perfectly feasible, I have no idea what their match rates are) in order to land at a combined ~90, allowing some wiggle room in the rounding that went on there.

 

[cliquesh]

Just to be clear, you seem to be implying that those who went unmatched in the ACGME may have matched AOA which is not true.

From what I saw it is a near 50/50 split for DOs as to which match they enter. A 75% in the ACGME would warrant a near 100% match rate in the AOA (perfectly feasible, I have no idea what their match rates are) in order to land at a combined ~90, allowing some wiggle room in the rounding that went on there.

The AOA match rates are pretty bad. It's 50% for some schools and 80% for others. I
think almost everyone gets a post graduate training position, though. They just have to scramble for it.

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012sklstats.html
Its a bad table. Ignore the percentages. Just look at the number of matched vs unmatched.

 

[Mbeas]

Just to be clear, you seem to be implying that those who went unmatched in the ACGME may have matched AOA which is not true.

I wasn't implying that, but I'm sure there are some here that will appreciate your clarification.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The AOA match rates are pretty bad. It's 50% for some schools and 80% for others. I
think almost everyone gets a post graduate training position, though. They just have to scramble for it.

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012sklstats.html
Its a bad table. Ignore the percentages. Just look at the number of matched vs unmatched.

I dont think that is considering only those who entered the AOA match. maybe... The dual match system could have caused that a little... anyone else wanna weigh in on that?

 

[HockeyDr09]

The AOA match rates are pretty bad. It's 50% for some schools and 80% for others. I
think almost everyone gets a post graduate training position, though. They just have to scramble for it.

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2012sklstats.html
Its a bad table. Ignore the percentages. Just look at the number of matched vs unmatched.

This table is pretty flawed. This table is only the AOA match and could not possibly take into consideration how many students ranked only reach positions and didn't care if they matched because they knew they would go MD match. It's definitely not unheard of for students who want IM ACGME to throw their hat in the ring for very competitive AOA slots (Derm/ENT/Opht.). These students obviously wouldn't match AOA and it would pull their schools matching percentage down. This data doesn't really tell you anything to be honest.

All the data you want is here.

 

[cliquesh]

I dont think that is considering only those who entered the AOA match. maybe... The dual match system could have caused that a little... anyone else wanna weigh in on that?

You might be right. I thought (i could be totally wrong) that you needed to submit a match list to be counted as a participant, but that may not be true. I know my school's general surgery program gets around 500 applications per year. If you add up all of the AOA surgical spots (g surgery, ortho, Neuro, urology, etc) there are only like 250 spots. So half of those surgical hopefuls will fail at matching. It's pretty common to apply to competitive AOA residencies, but also apply to a more realistic acgme residency.

 

[laricb]

but the Caribbean grants the MD degree? and I think we can both agree that there are Carib MD students with <24 MCAT score

eta: your post history is hilarious. one day you're an anesthesiologist at NYU, the next day you submitted your AACOMAS and interviewed at SGU.

I apologize for the confusion I share this login with my son. I will create my own login. Just giving you my opinion.

 

[MedPR]

I apologize for the confusion I share this login with my son. I will create my own login. Just giving you my opinion.

Why would you let your son go to a US DO school when SGU/Ross are (in your opinion) superior and easier to get into?

 

[Pqrs]

Edit: double post

 

[Pqrs]

I apologize for the confusion I share this login with my son. I will create my own login. Just giving you my opinion.

Post of the year award goes to...

 

[Mbeas]

I apologize for the confusion I share this login with my son. I will create my own login. Just giving you my opinion.

come on dude

 

[Ost3oclast]

I apologize for the confusion I share this login with my son. I will create my own login. Just giving you my opinion.

Srs?

 

[docnotsopc]

So if Mexico started bottling "Florida Orange Juice" then you would argue that Florida Orange Juice can come from oranges outside of Florida?

haha it would appear my original comment derailed this thread....most likely a good thing

 

[Ost3oclast]

haha it would appear my original comment derailed this thread....most likely a good thing

Hahahaha it really did.