How can it be reflected in GPA without inflation if courses are curved based on the school's class and not based on classes nation-wide? I still don't approve of grade inflation too much, but keep in mind that if there's no grade inflation, GPA means very little because discrepencies between different school's classes are not taken into account (mainly private vs public. not ivy vs non-ivy). Hell, I think it still means very little even with grade inflation since it is somewhat artificial and is not necessarily a function of how good the school is. That's why I prefer to let MCAT be the more applicable number for admissions (and it is) and shove GPA in the background.
Why should Ivies "count for more"?
- Thread starter Ernham
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How can it be reflected in GPA without inflation if courses are curved based on the school's class and not based on classes nation-wide? I still don't approve of grade inflation too much, but keep in mind that if there's no grade inflation, GPA means very little because discrepencies between different school's classes are not taken into account (mainly private vs public. not ivy vs non-ivy). Hell, I think it still means very little even with grade inflation since it is somewhat artificial and is not necessarily a function of how good the school is. That's why I prefer to let MCAT be the more applicable number for admissions (and it is) and shove GPA in the background.
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Stop arguing guys! There are such diversity in higher education that we just cannot draw any conclusive generalizations. There are both poor and rich students in the Ivies. I wouldn't have made it without financial aid, my family is on food stamps & SSI, I am not joking. Yet, there are still both motivated and slackers in the elite schools. The counter arguement is that there are bright shinng stars in the public colleges and CCs and they might do far better than the Average Joe in the League and they made the choice of where to attend due to personal circumstances. You just can't compare the quality of student body across, it's like that b/w apples and oranges. Why don't we just be happy with who we are? Peace out!
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about the comparing classes thing with ucla and stanfUrd and with stanfUrd's being tougher...i can see this to be somewhat true.
a lot of my friends go to UCs and i go visit them a lot and go to class with them when i am down there visiting just to see how they compare to my school. the level of difficulty in my opinion was pretty different. my intro ochem class were other UC upperdiv ochem. (sb, sd)
our intro chem was ucla's honors chem.
these were just some exs.
they realize that its different, just the way the schools are with the level of difficulty and their rep.
a lot of my friends go to UCs and i go visit them a lot and go to class with them when i am down there visiting just to see how they compare to my school. the level of difficulty in my opinion was pretty different. my intro ochem class were other UC upperdiv ochem. (sb, sd)
our intro chem was ucla's honors chem.
these were just some exs.
they realize that its different, just the way the schools are with the level of difficulty and their rep.
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4.3 for A+? I think thats inflation. We have a rare fraction of our students (usually the top 1% in a lecture class or so) get an A+, yet its still only a 4.0 for us.
Every single major university has grade inflation nowadays, there are a few liberal arts colleges (like Swarthmore) where a C is still the average. Even if your school curves to B-, that is still inflation. No grade inflation means that the average grade is a C, and that the largest single continent of grades given out is a C.
I seriously doubt the claims of anyone who says their school doesnt have grade inflation, most of the time, its an attempt by people to make their grade seem more worthwhile or to explain away a lower grade. My school is no exception, though people might try to tell you otherwise...🙄
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GPA's are based on how other students perform and quite frankly, universities have done quite a bit to stratify the level of academic talent/competition/ability. The MCAT is just a national GPA.
I think that you can line up gpa's and MCATs when you're looking at averages. You cannot look at an individual score for any real info but the averages do not lie.
That is, a 3.5 = a 30 MCAT roughly.
At a random state school a 3.7 = 32
At an ivy/ivy-esque a 3.3 = 32
How can you rationalize that there isn't a difference?
Yes, Harvard has grade inflation (ie the % of students who get A's is rather high). I don't think they should really be picked on considering less competitive student bodies receive the same luck (b/c of course... Harvard isn't the only one inflating).
I'm not saying that non-elite schools grade inflate, I bet most colleges still have science departments that give out a similar % of A's, B's, etc.
I think that you can line up gpa's and MCATs when you're looking at averages. You cannot look at an individual score for any real info but the averages do not lie.
That is, a 3.5 = a 30 MCAT roughly.
At a random state school a 3.7 = 32
At an ivy/ivy-esque a 3.3 = 32
How can you rationalize that there isn't a difference?
Yes, Harvard has grade inflation (ie the % of students who get A's is rather high). I don't think they should really be picked on considering less competitive student bodies receive the same luck (b/c of course... Harvard isn't the only one inflating).
I'm not saying that non-elite schools grade inflate, I bet most colleges still have science departments that give out a similar % of A's, B's, etc.
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So what is grade inflation anyway? I'm not sure about other Ivys but at Princeton many courses are not curved. The criteria for a given grade is pre-determined so theoretically it is possible for everyone to EARN an "A." Even orgo is "curve free." So if everyone does well in a class, like for instance "Biology of Organisms" where the average grade was in the high 80s and the resulting average GPA for that class was a 3.5, does it makes sense to say that the class suffers from grade inflation?
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A few months ago, I came across something related to this argument.
Can anyone explain to me why, over the last six years, private school matriculants outnumber public school matriculants at Vanderbilt ~450 to ~170???
http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/medschool/admissions/stats/undergraduate.php
Now, I understand that the average private school applicant, at least from a prestigious school, might be smarter or more driven on average than the avg public schl. applicant. But even if you ignore the students from all the Ivies, Stanford, Duke and Vanderbilt, private schl matriculants still outnumber public school matriculants by a fair number.
Honestly, i just don't get it. There are a lot of public schools out there, some even really good (sweet jesus!). And some of the really good ones happen to even be HUGE. Think of how many applicants there are from public schools. Think of how many SMART applicants attend public schools (God forbid!) for financial considerations, score 33+ on the MCAT, and apply to a school like Vanderbilt because they want to attend the best medical school they can, even if it costs a fortune.
Question: Do you think there is a bias, at least in this case of Vanderbilt med school, for a private school applicant?
Assuming qualified private school applicants to Vanderbilt do not outnumber qualified public school applicants by nearly 3 to 1 margin (argue this assumption if you want), I have only been able to come up with two explanations. #1--- there is no bias in who is accepted, but the difference is simply due to a phenomen in which private school matriculants are much more likely to matriculate after acceptance compared to their public school couterparts (perhaps due to cost). I don't buy this, at least not to the extent necessary to explain these numbers. Or two---there is a bias against public school applicants at Vanderbilt.
I'd like to get some feedback. No flames please.
Can anyone explain to me why, over the last six years, private school matriculants outnumber public school matriculants at Vanderbilt ~450 to ~170???
http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/medschool/admissions/stats/undergraduate.php
Now, I understand that the average private school applicant, at least from a prestigious school, might be smarter or more driven on average than the avg public schl. applicant. But even if you ignore the students from all the Ivies, Stanford, Duke and Vanderbilt, private schl matriculants still outnumber public school matriculants by a fair number.
Honestly, i just don't get it. There are a lot of public schools out there, some even really good (sweet jesus!). And some of the really good ones happen to even be HUGE. Think of how many applicants there are from public schools. Think of how many SMART applicants attend public schools (God forbid!) for financial considerations, score 33+ on the MCAT, and apply to a school like Vanderbilt because they want to attend the best medical school they can, even if it costs a fortune.
Question: Do you think there is a bias, at least in this case of Vanderbilt med school, for a private school applicant?
Assuming qualified private school applicants to Vanderbilt do not outnumber qualified public school applicants by nearly 3 to 1 margin (argue this assumption if you want), I have only been able to come up with two explanations. #1--- there is no bias in who is accepted, but the difference is simply due to a phenomen in which private school matriculants are much more likely to matriculate after acceptance compared to their public school couterparts (perhaps due to cost). I don't buy this, at least not to the extent necessary to explain these numbers. Or two---there is a bias against public school applicants at Vanderbilt.
I'd like to get some feedback. No flames please.
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I don't think that says much about the non-ivies. I know that our campus has had increase in the quality of students over the last decade. About 1/4 of the entering class are now valedictorians, and entering ACT scores have increased over 20% or so. So while my campus is towards the ower- middle of that linear regression, there are definitely some mitigating factors. They actually came to the conclusion that we are under grading students; our grade distribution hasn't changed much, despite the much greater quality of students.
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Our career services department at my ivy undergrad has mentioned grade inflation at Georgetown and Stanford.
She has also said that we are *not* known for inflation in the sciences... most medians are set at a B-.
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I think you bring up an excellent point. I find the Vanderbilt site rather informative. However after reading it i can make the following conculisions.
I am not so sure that the students at public universities are so hell bent for "success" compared to their private counterparts. Private schools (Ivy or Ivy type of course) have students who are far more interested in professional schools vs the public ones. Whereas if you look at public schools you will notice far more students going into nursing or education.
Esp when it comes to pre-med you have schools with 25k students and only 200 being pre-med and then you have private schools with 10k students with 500 pre-med students.
The kids coming from the elite colleges are of course better test takers and most likely they aim for the highest ranked professional school they can get in. Whereas in public schools i would tend to think that those people are just a minority.
Actually in the Vanderbilt website you will notice more UMD students than UChicago or Amherst. How can one explain that? I can understand why UTN (since it is a regional school) but i don't understand UMD or UIUC or UIUC.
What needs to be taken into account is this though. When you have 3 students from University of Missouri applying to Vanderbilt and then you have 200 from UPenn, one should expect that UPenn is going to have more success.
It would be interesting to see how many people actually apply from each school instead of who actually just matriculates.
The competition between elite colleges is also unreal. Most people don't understand that. When 150 pre-meds from Harvard apply to Hopkins, obviously Hopkins will not accept all 150 of them. They will take the top 1/3 or something like that.
Also one needs to understand that "success" in this process varies between applicant. For example a person from UMSL getting into University of Missouri would propably consider it a success. However will a person from Harvard getting into Mizzou consider himself succesfull in the process? One is "upgrading" and the other is "downgrading".
In my own opinion i think that where one ends for professional school counts far more than their undergrad. But thats just me.
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I'm a product of public education (didn't consider going to a private college, simply it wasn't an option):
I agree that ivies have a higher proportion of more hard-working and "bright" students. I emphasize bright because I believe it's mostly a function of your childhood environment (family, community, school). If your family never attended college (my case), it's hard for them to help you through school or even realize how "not so well" your (elem/high) school is preparing you for future educational endeavors. In sum, in my public college there are a great number of people who don't do well, don't make an effort, and eventually won't get good MCAT scores. But there are a few that are just as good as the brighest in the best colleges in the country.
But also remember the socioeconomic status of most students in my public college: have to work throughout their undergrad education. It's still doable to do well, but that much harder.
Yes, the MCAT is sort of a national GPA. But I feel that my MCAT does not reflect my abilities as much as my 6 years of undergrad work (2 degrees), and cannot be directly compared to a student's who did not work, attend school full-time and still prepared for the MCAT during a period of 3 months.
In sum, let's consider a person's socioeconomic conditions before judging their intellectual abilities.
I agree that ivies have a higher proportion of more hard-working and "bright" students. I emphasize bright because I believe it's mostly a function of your childhood environment (family, community, school). If your family never attended college (my case), it's hard for them to help you through school or even realize how "not so well" your (elem/high) school is preparing you for future educational endeavors. In sum, in my public college there are a great number of people who don't do well, don't make an effort, and eventually won't get good MCAT scores. But there are a few that are just as good as the brighest in the best colleges in the country.
But also remember the socioeconomic status of most students in my public college: have to work throughout their undergrad education. It's still doable to do well, but that much harder.
Yes, the MCAT is sort of a national GPA. But I feel that my MCAT does not reflect my abilities as much as my 6 years of undergrad work (2 degrees), and cannot be directly compared to a student's who did not work, attend school full-time and still prepared for the MCAT during a period of 3 months.
In sum, let's consider a person's socioeconomic conditions before judging their intellectual abilities.
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I think there are quite a few more private schools with "name value" meaning that those schools are known for producing high-quality students. I think you only get "name value" from a public school if it's within the top 10ish for public schools. I'm not sure what the numbers look like but I think it might be possible that there are simply more students applying from private schools. But, as you said, if there are an equal number of students applying from both top public schools as well as brand-name private schools, there's defnitely some kind of bias.
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Thanks for the response. Your comments are most welcome. I agree with much of what you write, yet I still am amazed by those numbers. Even ignoring the elite private schools, the ones with super motivated students, there is still a bias, at least statistically. I'm having trouble understanding this.
"But also remember the socioeconomic status of most students in my public college: have to work throughout their undergrad education. It's still doable to do well, but that much harder."
From a practical perspective, almost all college students are poor. All my friends hold at least one job. Statistically, >50% at most (all?) Ivies are on financial aid. Even those numbers are deceiving, as just because your parents can afford to pay your tuition does not mean they will pay all of it. One of my friends last year skipped meals to afford a bus ticket home for Christmas. I certainly agree that having less money handed to you makes life more difficult, but this is what the work experience and personal statement sections of the app are for.
Regarding grade inflation, an interesting article from the DP:
http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/pages/pdf/page3/0416.pdf
One conclusion that can be drawn--large science lectures have lower grades--is obviously true anecdotally. Yet another friend of mine ended BioI with a 23%. Grade inflation essentially does not exist in pre-med courses. But I can tell you that the difference in comprehension between a C and an A is almost too small to be noticed. I still am not exactly sure how they differentiate between the grades here, as virtually every one studies hard and has a solid grasp on the material.
From a practical perspective, almost all college students are poor. All my friends hold at least one job. Statistically, >50% at most (all?) Ivies are on financial aid. Even those numbers are deceiving, as just because your parents can afford to pay your tuition does not mean they will pay all of it. One of my friends last year skipped meals to afford a bus ticket home for Christmas. I certainly agree that having less money handed to you makes life more difficult, but this is what the work experience and personal statement sections of the app are for.
Regarding grade inflation, an interesting article from the DP:
http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/pages/pdf/page3/0416.pdf
One conclusion that can be drawn--large science lectures have lower grades--is obviously true anecdotally. Yet another friend of mine ended BioI with a 23%. Grade inflation essentially does not exist in pre-med courses. But I can tell you that the difference in comprehension between a C and an A is almost too small to be noticed. I still am not exactly sure how they differentiate between the grades here, as virtually every one studies hard and has a solid grasp on the material.
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"From a practical perspective, almost all college students are poor. All my friends hold at least one job. Statistically, >50% at most (all?)" Ivies are on financial aid.
1. That doesn't really mean anything.
2. Where is your cite?
"Even those numbers are deceiving, as just because your parents can afford to pay your tuition does not mean they will pay all of it. One of my friends last year skipped meals to afford a bus ticket home for Christmas."
That's nice. My pen pal is a 34523525235 millionaire that goes to an Ivy and had playboy bunnies feeding him like a baby. Wow, aren't these subjective stories amusing and oh so helpful?
"I certainly agree that having less money handed to you makes life more difficult, but this is what the work experience and personal statement sections of the app are for."
Obviously you MISSED this, but I'll say it again: if you take two college hopefuls with the exact same stats, except for social class, and they both apply to the same school, the one from the higher income is more likely to be granted admission. Be amazed, be stunned, be enlightened.
1. That doesn't really mean anything.
2. Where is your cite?
"Even those numbers are deceiving, as just because your parents can afford to pay your tuition does not mean they will pay all of it. One of my friends last year skipped meals to afford a bus ticket home for Christmas."
That's nice. My pen pal is a 34523525235 millionaire that goes to an Ivy and had playboy bunnies feeding him like a baby. Wow, aren't these subjective stories amusing and oh so helpful?
"I certainly agree that having less money handed to you makes life more difficult, but this is what the work experience and personal statement sections of the app are for."
Obviously you MISSED this, but I'll say it again: if you take two college hopefuls with the exact same stats, except for social class, and they both apply to the same school, the one from the higher income is more likely to be granted admission. Be amazed, be stunned, be enlightened.
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Part I: It doesn't really mean anything? You are assuming that most ivy league kids come from the upper classes. Think again, my friend. Visit an ivy league school once in your life (if you can get over your fear of everything-ivy), and meet some people. Not everyone here is rich and famous.
Part II: Since you're attacking people based on making broad statements without proof, where is yours? Who said that two kids with the same exact #'s will be judged next by social status? If you are saying that one went to Harvard and one went to University of South West Alaska, then perhaps the Harvard student might have a small edge, but how does that relate to social class at all? Once you realize that ivy league schools aren't some sort of "reserved for the rich and famous" institutions, your argument basically crumbles. So unless you can find some #'s to prove your point that the average student at any ivy league school is better off than at a non-ivy, I would quiet down over there.
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I already cited my source. Why don't you try READING. It's from the Century Foundation's study: "Socioeconomic status, race/ethnicity, and selective college admissions." Carnevale MAR 2003.
As far as 2, do you think I was born yesterday?? Or maybe just you were??
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Ernham, what's with all the animosity anyway? Did all the Ivies reject you or something?
Im sure there are some richarses at Ivies that fit your description, just as there are normal middle class people and lower income students...
Im sure there are some richarses at Ivies that fit your description, just as there are normal middle class people and lower income students...
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You pay for what you get!!! Why should rich kids get more for Christmas? Why should rich people get better healthcare coverage? Why should rich people get more chicks? Why? Because that is life. And life isn't fair. 
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Originally posted by doctorcynical
You pay for what you get!!! Why should rich kids get more for Christmas? Why should rich people get better healthcare coverage? Why should rich people get more chicks? Why? Because that is life. And life isn't fair.
What is the student body breakdown at Troll U?
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Ernham, you seriously sound like someone who is saying "all these Ivies that rejected me are full of rich grade-inflated *****s and only the school I attend has grade DEFLATION"
Please, most of the Ivies are full of valedictorians, the ACT point is moot since most good schools dont even use that as their standardized test. So what youre basically saying is that you have a greater quality of students and they are being undergraded? How would your school solve this? GRADE INFLATION
GASP, could it possibly be that students everywhere, not just at Ivies, and not just at publics or at other private schools are getting smarter? And could it be that maybe its in fact your school that is slow to respond in recognizing this and correcting it, while the Ivies realize the fact that students are getting smarter and thus are inflating?
Plus, a high GPA from an ivy isnt a guarantee for med school anway. You are expected as an ivy applicant to be able to dominate the MCAT as well. If you fail to do this, you are SOL just like anyone else. So while I sympathize with the partial socioeconomic disparity at Ivies (though 60k per year for a family sounds like pure middle class, not upper middle class to me), I think grade inflation is an indepenednt issue with independent concerns. It used to be that only the RICHEST went to college, and a lot has changed since then, which is great, but there is still a ways to go.
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Great attack there on #2...really. Solid. I point out a pretty large flaw in your argument and that's the best you can come up with? This thread should be renamed "back to 3rd grade". If you read my post carefully, you'd see that I said that someone from Harvard is going to have an easier go at it than someone from University of South West Alaska if they had the same numbers. However, that has nothing to do with their social status. Can you please explain how this has anything to do with social status? Thanks...
hey-
ernham attacked me for not possibly being able to know the stats i posted earlier, so i am going to give everyone the links to them so that everyone else knows im not full of sh.t like ernham is.
the SAT data is easily accessible on USnews, though i ballparked it. here is the data on the MCAT-
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/mcatstats.pdf
i don't know if you can get access from non-princeton computers, but you can give it a shot. also, here is the whole health professions advising office, so you can peruse the info at your leisure:
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/
once again, i'm not positive that you can get access to this site when not on the pton network. as for the gpas, you'll just have to take my word for it. i remember reading it somewhere recently. any doubts still?
ernham attacked me for not possibly being able to know the stats i posted earlier, so i am going to give everyone the links to them so that everyone else knows im not full of sh.t like ernham is.
the SAT data is easily accessible on USnews, though i ballparked it. here is the data on the MCAT-
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/mcatstats.pdf
i don't know if you can get access from non-princeton computers, but you can give it a shot. also, here is the whole health professions advising office, so you can peruse the info at your leisure:
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/
once again, i'm not positive that you can get access to this site when not on the pton network. as for the gpas, you'll just have to take my word for it. i remember reading it somewhere recently. any doubts still?
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You just pointed out your stupidity, not any flaw in my argument. Of course students attending a school that costs 40k a freakin year are going to qualify for financial aid. Their parents would probably need to be in the top 1% of incomes to not get need-based aid. And imagine that, a whole 40% get aid. You have basically refuted your own "point." Thanks, by the way. And like I said, congratulations being born.
I'm done for the day; I have much bigger fish to fry.
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I sure hope not. That idjut thinks he can extrapolate general MCAT scores from SELF-REPORTED test takers to all of Princeton pre-meds. My impression of the aptitude of Ivies gets lower by the minute.
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First of all, you obviously have no knowledge of economics whatsoever. The top 1% of incomes are all buying multiple YACHTS a year. 40k a year can be afforded by any family who has saved and is in the middle class. Also private schools match costs based on need. There is a specific formula for this that all schools use. Since top private schools are well endowed, they can actually substitute grants for loans unlike other schools. So if there is a need to be met for poorer students, richer schools (like Ivies) are more likely to be able to meet this need. In fact, Princeton has done away with ALL loans and replaced them with grants. Not all schools can afford this, but if Princeton was just a richboys club, they wouldnt bother with such a policy helping poorer applicants.
Ernham, you have a lot of issues, Im not quite sure what about Ivies has made you into a rabid arsehole (Im still guessing you just got rejected by all of them or something), but you have been wrong on a number of points and you are yet to demonstrate any ability to actually read and understand someone's argument before going ad hominem against them (which I assume you do since you have no valid response). If you want to discuss this topic, you're going to need to calm the heck down, because right now you sound like some guy who is pissed off at having gotten rejected from ivies.
ernham-
apparently you aren't quite in tune with what it means to be a pton student. because most generally have a high degree of integrity and because all of our interactions with each other are governed by a serious honor code, i truly do believe what the health professions advisers tell us, even if the scores ARE self-reported.
apparently you aren't quite in tune with what it means to be a pton student. because most generally have a high degree of integrity and because all of our interactions with each other are governed by a serious honor code, i truly do believe what the health professions advisers tell us, even if the scores ARE self-reported.
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This gets better and better...where in my post did I ever mention anything about financial aid? I simply said, if you READ, that ivy league doesn't mean you're rich. I never said anything about anyone qualifying for financial aid. My point, and it still stands, is that someone going to Harvard is going to have an easier way into a good school than someone from a noname school, simply because most likely they had a tougher time getting their grades. You, on th eother hand, keep arguing that this is because they're all rich, instead. How in the heck do you make that conclusion. That's all I'm asking and I'd appreciate if you stop putting words in my mouth 😉
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I will repeat again, just all those that are a little "slow on the uptake" can understand.
3% of Ivies come from the bottom quartile.
10% come from the bottom half.
This means that 90% come from the upper half.
Statistically, I have the right to claim that the "vast majority of the ivy-league is upper class and that the amount of "poor" students in the Ivies is statistically negligible."
It's a true statement backed up by facts. If you don't like facts, do like the AA biches do: lie about them.
3% of Ivies come from the bottom quartile.
10% come from the bottom half.
This means that 90% come from the upper half.
Statistically, I have the right to claim that the "vast majority of the ivy-league is upper class and that the amount of "poor" students in the Ivies is statistically negligible."
It's a true statement backed up by facts. If you don't like facts, do like the AA biches do: lie about them.
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Assuming for a second, that you are correct and 90% of the ivy league is from the upper class (which if you went to a school in the ivy league you would know is full of crap), how does this prove that that's the reason they have an easier chance of getting into school than someone from a non-ivy?
You're making a little bit of a leap in logic there.
You're making a little bit of a leap in logic there.
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Ernham, so you're for or against AA then?
Also realize that a substantial number of ivy students are from the 2nd quartile, which is generally considered middle class as well.
There might be other reasons, related to lack of opportunities in their community and lack of good public schools, that are harming the lower class and preventing them from getting in. So I assume you are also pro-AA, since these arguments are similar?
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Could you possibly dodge the question anymore? Let me rephrase, do you support affirmative action policies of schools attempting to make the student body representative of the general population, but in so doing, oftentimes ignore the competing meritocratic claims between applicants?
This isn't a trick question, and please, there is no such thing as AA? Denial ain't just a river ya know.
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Haha, looks like you're having some trouble here, eh?
Why are you so hesitant to discuss affirmative action? The own report you keep linking discusses it as the MAIN problem with ivy schools. Socioeconomic status was a related issue as well, but the paper you keep waving at everyone is mainly talking about affirmative action.
So I will just assume you support affirmative action as well, since you refuse to comment on your own stance. Or, if you prefer to speak for yourself as opposed to an Adobe PDF, make your case here. I'm all ears. Are you for or against AA? Simple question, and its not moot.
http://www.tcf.org/Publications/Edu...nevale_rose.pdf Is the report you keep linking by the way. Count the number of references it makes to AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and the number of headers related to it. So its obviously a related issue.
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If I talk about AA, this thread soon ends up in the "everyone" forum(speaking of communism....). I only used that study to push the point of how economically homogenous the ivy league is.
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The problem is, you are talking about AA whether you know it or not, and the article you cited spend a majority of the text discussing affirmative action (in conjunction with the low socioeconomic status of certain races).
Basically, your arguments arent connected well at all. You seem to be trying to imply that: rich people --> pay to get into ivies --> get higher GPAs --> get into medical school.
Unfortunately, you classify anyone whose family makes over 60k a year as upper class. This is hugely problematic, as most people would consider around 60-80k middle class. So the division you draw to seperate out the upperclass is at a threshold that I would imagine many SDNers would suddenly be considered upper class, even though by most accounts they are middle class.
Also, I fail to see the point. Poor people are unfortunately screwed in the US because they live in bad parts of town, dont have access to education, and dont have as many connections as rich people. THIS SUCKS. But I dont see how you can blame Ivies for this, this is a problem with larger society, and is unfortunately endemic to the capitalist system.
It makes sense that if poorer people never really had a chance to begin with, that there would be fewer who would get into the Ivies because they wouldnt score high enough. Yet again, this sucks, but you can't blame Ivies for this, this is society's fault. The top schools are naturally going to have higher scorers, and unfortunately society stacks the cards against poor people.
So yeah, ivies have a lot of upper class (or middle class, more conventionally) students, but they are also the achievers. Sure there are some legacy idiots who donated libraries, but mostly theyre just the sons and daughters of successful families. That said, if you are a poor person and you do transcend the poor educational system and work your way up to do well on the SATs, you will get into an ivy. Hell, they will pay you. Ivies love stories like that, and they are need-blind in admissions for the most part.
So there are two arguments here that I believe you have mixed up. I agree completely that society has screwed over poor people, causing many to lose out on educational opportunities and career paths. This is a different topic than what is being discussed on this thread though. The argument you are making, that Ivies have more middle and upper class students, I believe, is more a function of the successes of students in these income brackets (who benefit from a good education, living in good neighborhoods, access to test prep, etc..) rather than Ivies actively selecting for these richer individuals.
So yeah, it sucks bigtime, but most of it is the fault of society, I see little more the Ivies can do than what they already do to attempt to equalize the playing field further.
Basically, your arguments arent connected well at all. You seem to be trying to imply that: rich people --> pay to get into ivies --> get higher GPAs --> get into medical school.
Unfortunately, you classify anyone whose family makes over 60k a year as upper class. This is hugely problematic, as most people would consider around 60-80k middle class. So the division you draw to seperate out the upperclass is at a threshold that I would imagine many SDNers would suddenly be considered upper class, even though by most accounts they are middle class.
Also, I fail to see the point. Poor people are unfortunately screwed in the US because they live in bad parts of town, dont have access to education, and dont have as many connections as rich people. THIS SUCKS. But I dont see how you can blame Ivies for this, this is a problem with larger society, and is unfortunately endemic to the capitalist system.
It makes sense that if poorer people never really had a chance to begin with, that there would be fewer who would get into the Ivies because they wouldnt score high enough. Yet again, this sucks, but you can't blame Ivies for this, this is society's fault. The top schools are naturally going to have higher scorers, and unfortunately society stacks the cards against poor people.
So yeah, ivies have a lot of upper class (or middle class, more conventionally) students, but they are also the achievers. Sure there are some legacy idiots who donated libraries, but mostly theyre just the sons and daughters of successful families. That said, if you are a poor person and you do transcend the poor educational system and work your way up to do well on the SATs, you will get into an ivy. Hell, they will pay you. Ivies love stories like that, and they are need-blind in admissions for the most part.
So there are two arguments here that I believe you have mixed up. I agree completely that society has screwed over poor people, causing many to lose out on educational opportunities and career paths. This is a different topic than what is being discussed on this thread though. The argument you are making, that Ivies have more middle and upper class students, I believe, is more a function of the successes of students in these income brackets (who benefit from a good education, living in good neighborhoods, access to test prep, etc..) rather than Ivies actively selecting for these richer individuals.
So yeah, it sucks bigtime, but most of it is the fault of society, I see little more the Ivies can do than what they already do to attempt to equalize the playing field further.
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Ok Ernham. I've seen enough. I am the 3% of which you speak of. I am an economically disadvantaged student who graduated from Duke University and you're definitely being a heretic.
Yes, ivies and other elite ugrads' students are mostly rich or upper middle class. Yes, they also toss tons of money to people like me who achieved quite a bit in HS and proved that they were worth the investment. I would like more diversity at these schools as well, but nobody is owed an education! Do not take away the accomplishment of others simply b/c you do not have their luxury.
As much as I hated the rich pukes at Duke, they worked their asses off and almost all of them deserved to be there. What you do not seem to understand is that most competitive public ugrads such as UVA, UNC, Umich, Berkeley etc. all have a much greater than average population of middle-upper to upper class students.
First off we're talking about the children of people who are 40-50 years old.... who are probably making the most money they will ever make.... Even if I'm a HS teacher and I've done it for 20 years I will more than 40+K/yr. Now imagine two high school teachers that are both 50! It's based on age as well. This is the time where people go into middle management etc.
YES ECONOMIC STATUS PLAYS A MUCH GREATER PART IN WHERE YOU END UP IN EDUCATION than just about any other characteristic, however, don't think that just b/c certain people have the luxury to only study,that they are undeserving. UNC's ugrad population has >30% from households that make more than 100,000 / year. Not exactly poverty line eh?
Bottom line is that the wealthy generally succeed. What is your point? I'm sure that wealthy students at Podunk U will most likely do better than the ones working jobs as well. Why should some of the BEST students from the middle-upper and upper classes be punished? Should med schools accept the less academically adept or lazier students at less competitive ugrads?
I will say this - Poor people get f%cked over when it comes to education. The bottom 25% in terms of economic background have a laughable representation at the college level in general (not just ivies) and it's even worse at the graduate level. Right now most graduate schools pay lip service to it or don't even bother considering it. I'm guessing you're middle class Ernham, you don't deserve help simply b/c you could not get into a competitive ugrad.
Yes, ivies and other elite ugrads' students are mostly rich or upper middle class. Yes, they also toss tons of money to people like me who achieved quite a bit in HS and proved that they were worth the investment. I would like more diversity at these schools as well, but nobody is owed an education! Do not take away the accomplishment of others simply b/c you do not have their luxury.
As much as I hated the rich pukes at Duke, they worked their asses off and almost all of them deserved to be there. What you do not seem to understand is that most competitive public ugrads such as UVA, UNC, Umich, Berkeley etc. all have a much greater than average population of middle-upper to upper class students.
First off we're talking about the children of people who are 40-50 years old.... who are probably making the most money they will ever make.... Even if I'm a HS teacher and I've done it for 20 years I will more than 40+K/yr. Now imagine two high school teachers that are both 50! It's based on age as well. This is the time where people go into middle management etc.
YES ECONOMIC STATUS PLAYS A MUCH GREATER PART IN WHERE YOU END UP IN EDUCATION than just about any other characteristic, however, don't think that just b/c certain people have the luxury to only study,that they are undeserving. UNC's ugrad population has >30% from households that make more than 100,000 / year. Not exactly poverty line eh?
Bottom line is that the wealthy generally succeed. What is your point? I'm sure that wealthy students at Podunk U will most likely do better than the ones working jobs as well. Why should some of the BEST students from the middle-upper and upper classes be punished? Should med schools accept the less academically adept or lazier students at less competitive ugrads?
I will say this - Poor people get f%cked over when it comes to education. The bottom 25% in terms of economic background have a laughable representation at the college level in general (not just ivies) and it's even worse at the graduate level. Right now most graduate schools pay lip service to it or don't even bother considering it. I'm guessing you're middle class Ernham, you don't deserve help simply b/c you could not get into a competitive ugrad.
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Durkheim feels that poor people serve a purpose in society.
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Well, let's see here where you are wrong, hrmm?
Am I middle class? Nope
Do I feel I deserve help? Nope.
Could I get into a competitive college? Well, UWM is not exactly easy to get into, and it's actually the only place I applied; I have no idea how i would('ve) fair elsewhere.
Let's see where you were right?
Hmmm.... looking..... looking.... hmmm. Well, you got my name right; that's better than most!
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I am a princeton grad. I also worked in the admissions office. Roughly 20% of the student population, while I was there, were legacies. Less than 15% were minorities. Less than 10% URMs. Of the URMs, nearly 90% required some sort of financial aid, as opposed to 75% of the total student population.
On average, science classes are curved to a B-....which translates to the "average molecular bio student" with a 2.8 MAJOR gpa. It is pretty common knowledge that if you want As in your premed requirements...take it at Rutgers over the summer or spend a semester away doing so at the state school near your home. I did this on the suggestion of upperclassmen.
I can't say anything about the population of students at your average state school. However, I will say IN MY EXPERIENCE (take that as you will), those supposedly hardcore sciences were a BREEZE at state schools comparatively. To me, the major difference was not the caliber of students, but perhaps the caliber of work expected. I felt like much more was expected at Princeton. While state schools (I went to 4 different during my time at princeton) tested the material straight up...Princeton professors were asking us questions that even their graduate students had difficulty answering. (They often bragged about this)....really stretching our knowledge of the basics. Which MAY translate to why most Ivies or Ivy like schools have a higher MCAT average. MANY of my exams at Princeton were similar to the MCAT format, while they were straight up multiple choice at the state schools I attended.
The scores posted by the HPA, as far as I know are accurate from 1998 and on because they request that all students check the box during the exam for a score report to be sent to preprofessional advising office. So (and I checked yesterday) roughly 98% of Princeton applicants get an OFFICIAL report sent to Princeton's HPA.
What else? Oh, all this talk of salaries and which quartile they fall in had me lost. I think its irrelevant to talk about salaries without talking about the number of people in a family. I think I said this before. At one point, my mother and her three kids (including myself) were on welfare, while she went to school and worked. As some point during highschool, my mother after years in a job reached 40K....but with four kids, her income alone was never enough. Inevitably I had to work AND got great money from Princeton. What quartile did I fall in? Do you determine this based on how long someone was on welfare? Since I was until about highschool, does that change how I count in the Princeton population...or is it based on entering status? Shouldn't the number in household that is supported by this amount count? It does when applying for public assistance. So, I guess I am confused. It always appeared to me that MOST people were more well off than I. I am thinking two incomes and less kids makes a huge difference. Very few people were FILTHY rich....but perhaps this was just the circles I ran in. Either way, I never felt like anyone was SLACKING hard or whatever. We all worked hard (and played hard too..if you know about Nude olympics and the Street..you know what I am talking about
😛 )
I will note that my time in the admissions office was interesting. Legacy applications do get flagged and on average did have 'lower stats' (noticeable enough that the people that complain about "well off URMS" getting "bonus points" should really research Legacies at their schools). But whatever, I don't want to change this to an AA thread...just wanted to add my 2cents about Ivies..being an Ivy graduate.
